Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

“The universe is too big, too old and too cruel”: three silly objections to cosmological fine-tuning (Part One)

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In previous articles, I have argued that even if our universe is part of some larger multiverse, we still have excellent scientific grounds for believing that our universe – and also the multiverse in which it is embedded – is fine-tuned to permit the possibility of life. Moreover, the only adequate explanation for the extraordinary degree of fine-tuning we observe in the cosmos is that it is the product of an Intelligence. That is the cosmological fine-tuning argument, in a nutshell. My articles can be viewed here:

So you think the multiverse refutes cosmological fine-tuning? Consider Arthur Rubinstein
Beauty and the multiverse
Why a multiverse would still need to be fine-tuned, in order to make baby universes

Scientific challenges to the cosmological fine-tuning argument can be ably rebutted, as this article by Dr. Robin Collins shows. However, there are three objections to fine-tuning which I keep hearing from atheists over and over again. Here they are:

1. If the universe was designed to support life, then why does it have to be so BIG, and why is it nearly everywhere hostile to life? Why are there so many stars, and why are so few orbited by life-bearing planets?

2. If the universe was designed to support life, then why does it have to be so OLD, and why was it devoid of life throughout most of its history? For instance, why did life on Earth only appear after 70% of the cosmos’s 13.7-billion-year history had already elapsed? And Why did human beings (genus Homo) only appear after 99.98% of the cosmos’s 13.7-billion-year history had already elapsed?

3. If the universe was designed to support life, then why does Nature have to be so CRUEL? Why did so many animals have to die – and why did so many species of animals have to go extinct (99% is the commonly quoted figure), in order to generate the world as we see it today? What a waste! And what about predation, parasitism, and animals that engage in practices such as serial murder and infant cannibalism?

In today’s post, I’m not going to attempt to provide any positive reasons why we should expect an intelligently designed universe to be big and old, and why we should not be too surprised if it contains a lot of suffering. I’ll talk about those reasons in my next post. What I’m going to do in this post is try to clear the air, and explain why I regard the foregoing objections to the cosmic fine-tuning argument as weak and inconclusive.

Here are seven points I’d like atheists who object to the cosmological fine-tuning argument to consider:

1. If you don’t like the universe that we live in, then the onus is on you to show that a better universe is physically possible, given a different set of laws and/or a different fundamental theory of physics. Only when you have done this are you entitled to make the argument that our universe is so poorly designed that no Intelligent Being could possibly have made it.

At this point, I expect to hear splutterings of protest: “But that’s not our problem. It’s God’s. Isn’t your God omnipotent? Can’t He make anything He likes – including a perfect universe?” Here’s my answer: “First, the cosmological fine-tuning argument claims to establish the existence of an Intelligent Designer, who may or may not be omnipotent. Second, even an omnipotent Being can only make things that can be coherently described. So what I want you to do is provide me with a physical model of your better universe, showing how its laws and fundamental theory of physics differ from those of our universe, and why these differences make it better. Until you can do that, you’d better get back to work.”

2. Imaginability doesn’t imply physical possibility. I can imagine a winged horse, but that doesn’t make it physically possible. The question still needs to be asked: “How would it fly?” I can also imagine a nicer universe where unpleasant things never happen, but I still have to ask myself: “What kind of scientific laws and what kind of fundamental theory would need to hold in that nicer universe, in order to prevent unpleasant things from happening?”

3. As Dr. Robin Collins has argued, the laws of our universe are extremely elegant, from a mathematical perspective. (See also my post, Beauty and the multiverse.) If there is an Intelligent Designer, He presumably favors mathematical elegance. However, even if a “nicer” universe proved to be physically possible, in a cosmos characterized by some other set of scientific laws and a different fundamental theory of physics, the scientific laws and fundamental theory of such a universe might not be anywhere near as mathematically elegant as those of the universe that we live in. The Intelligent Designer might not want to make a “nice”, pain-free universe, if doing so entails making a messy, inelegant universe.

4. If a Designer wanted to design a universe that was free from animal suffering (i.e. a world in which animals were able to avoid noxious stimuli, without the conscious feeling of pain), there are two ways in which He could accomplish this: He could either use basic, macro-level laws of Nature (e.g. “It is a law of Nature that no animal that is trapped in a forest fire shall suffer pain”) or micro-level laws (i.e. by making laws of Nature precluding those physical arrangements of matter in animals’ brain and nervous systems which correspond to pain).

The first option is incompatible with materialism. If you believe in the materialist doctrine of supervenience (that any differences between two animals’ mental states necessarily reflect an underlying physical difference between them), it automatically follows that if a trapped animal’s brain and nervous system instantiates a physical arrangement of matter which corresponds to pain, then that animal will suffer pain, period. No irreducible, top-down “macro-level” law can prevent that, in a materialistic universe. So if you’re asking the Designer to make a world where unpleasant or painful things never happen by simply decreeing this, then what you’re really asking for is a world in which animals’ minds cannot be described in materialistic terms. Are you sure you want that?

The second option is unwieldly. There are a vast number of possible physical arrangements of matter in animals’ brain and nervous systems which correspond to pain, and there is no single feature that they all possess in common, at the micro level. An Intelligent Designer would need to make a huge number of extra laws, in order to preclude each and every one of these physical arrangements. That in turn would make the laws of Nature a lot less elegant, when taken as a whole. The Intelligent Designer might not want to make such an aesthetically ugly universe.

Eliminating animal suffering might not be a wise thing to do, in any case. One could argue that the conscious experience of pain is, at least sometimes, biologically beneficial, since it subsequently leads to survival-promoting behavior: “Once bitten, twice shy.” (An automatic, unconscious response to noxious stimuli might achieve the same result, but perhaps not as effectively or reliably as conscious pain.) However, if the Designer is going to allow survival-promoting pain into His world, then He will have to allow the neural states corresponding to that pain. If He still wants to rule out pain that doesn’t promote survival, then He’s going to have to make funny, top-down “macro-level” laws to ensure this – for instance: “It is a law of nature that neural state X [which correspinds to pain in one’s right toe] is only allowed to exist if it benefits the animal biologically.” Note the reference to the whole animal here. You’re asking Mother Nature to check whether the pain would be biologically beneficial to the animal as a whole, before “deciding” whether to allow the animal to experience the feeling of pain or not. But that’s a “macro-level” law, and hence not the kind of law which any card-carrying materialist could consistently ask a Designer to implement.

5. Objections to fine-tuning are of no avail unless they are even more powerful than arguments for fine-tuning. I’d like to use a simple mathematical example to illustrate the point. (I’ve deliberately tried to keep this illustration as jargon-free – and Bayes-free- as possible, so that everyone can understand it.) Suppose, for argument’s sake, that the cosmic fine-tuning argument makes it 99.999999999999999999999 per cent likely (given our current knowledge of physics) that the universe had a Designer. Now suppose, on the other hand, that the vast size and extreme age of the universe, combined with the enormous wastage of animal life and the huge amount of suffering that has occurred during the Earth’s history, make it 99.999999 per cent likely (given our current scientific knowledge of what’s physically possible and what’s not) that a universe containing these features didn’t have a Designer. Given these figures, it would still be rational to accept the cosmic fine-tuning argument, and to believe that our universe had a Designer. Put simply: if someone offers me a 99.999999999999999999999 per cent airtight argument that there is an Intelligent Designer of Nature, and then someone else puts forward a 99.999999 per cent airtight argument that there isn’t an Intelligent Designer, I’m going to go with the first argument and distrust the second. Any sensible person would. Why? Because the likelihood that the first argument is wrong is orders of magnitude lower than the likelihood that the second argument is wrong. Putting it another way: the second argument is “leakier” than the first, so we shouldn’t trust it, if it appears to contradict the first.

6. For the umpteenth time, Intelligent Design theory says nothing about the moral character of the Designer. Even if an atheist could demonstrate beyond all doubt that no loving, personal Designer could have produced the kind of universe we live in, would that prove that there was no Designer? No. All it would show is that the Designer was unloving and/or impersonal – in which case, the logical thing to do (given the strength of the fine-tuning argument) would be to become a Deist. Of course, you might not like such an impersonal Deity – and naturally, it wouldn’t like you, either. But as a matter of scientific honesty, you would be bound to to acknowledge its existence, if that’s where the evidence led.

I’m genuinely curious as to why so few Intelligent Design critics have addressed the philosophy of Deism, and I can only put it down to pique. It’s as if the critics are saying, “Well, I don’t want anything to do with that kind of Deity, as it’s indifferent to suffering. Therefore, I refuse to even consider the possibility that it might exist.” When one puts it like that, it does seem a rather silly attitude to entertain, doesn’t it?

7. From time to time, I have noticed that some atheist critics of the cosmological fine-tuning argument make their case by attacking the God of the Bible. I have often wondered why they focus their attack on such a narrow target, as people of many different religions (and none) can still believe in some sort of God. I strongly suspect that the underlying logic is as follows:

(i) if the cosmological fine-tuning argument is true then there is a Transcendent Designer;

(ii) if there is a Transcendent Designer then it’s possible that this Designer is the God of the Bible;

(iii) but it is impossible that the God of the Bible could exist, because He is a “moral monster”;

(iv) hence, the cosmological fine-tuning argument is not true.

This is a pathological form of reasoning, since it is emotionally driven by a visceral dislike of the God of the Bible. Nevertheless, I believe this form of reasoning is quite common among atheists.

What’s wrong with the foregoing argument? (I shall assume for the purposes of the discussion below that step (i) is true.) At a cursory glance, the argument looks valid:

if A is true then B is true; if B is true then it is possible that C; but it is not possible that C; hence A is not true.

The argument is invalid, however, because it confuses epistemic possibility with real (ontological) possibility. If something is epistemically possible, then for all we know, it might be true. But if something is ontologically possible, then it could really happen. The two kinds of possibility are not the same, because we don’t always know enough to be sure about what could really happen.

Step (ii) of the foregoing argument relates to epistemic possibility, not ontological possibility. It does not say that there is a real possibility that the God of the Bible might exist; it simply says that for all we know, the Transcendent Designer might turn out to be the God the Bible.

Step (iii) of the argument, on the other hand, relates to ontological possibility. It amounts to the claim that since the God the Bible is morally absurd, in His dealings with human beings, no such Being could possibly exist, in reality.

Now, I’m not going to bother discussing the truth or falsity of step (iii) in the foregoing argument. All I intend to say in this post is that even if you believe it to be true, the argument above is an invalid, because the two kinds of possibility in steps (ii) and (iii) are not the same.

Indeed, if you were absolutely sure that step (iii) were true, then you would have to deny step (ii). In which case, the argument fails once again.

In short: attacking the cosmological fine-tuning argument by ridiculing the God of the Bible is a waste of time.

I would like to conclude by saying that atheists who object to the cosmological fine-tuning argument really need to do their homework. Let’s see your better alternative universe, and let’s see your scientific explanation of how it works.

Comments
As long as we depend on a human created system of concepts, it is pretty much impossible to unravel the question of design. If the system of concepts is a human design, then everything that looks designed might merely be a result of that human design.
The same would hold true for non-design, and all claims about the nature of anything, including materialism/physicalism, matter, etc., since we are relying on human concepts in our discussion about anything. That's the problem with self-refuting intellectual nihilism; you end up turning any argument you can make into rhetorical garbage.William J Murray
August 28, 2011
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Neil Rickert says at 5:
Physical constants are parameters in the system that we have designed to allow us to describe the universe.
VJ says at 5.1:
I’m afraid I cannot agree with your assertion that “physical constants are parameters that we have designed to allow us to describe the universe”.
At 5.1.1 Neil Rickert says:
Then it’s a good thing that I never said that. I certainly don’t agree with that alleged assertion.
I guess when you are just matter animated by physics, contradicting yourself is just one more thing that happens that cannot be helped.William J Murray
August 28, 2011
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But it looks like it is you who are misinterpreting.
I'm a mathematician. Probability theory is part of my area of knowledge. I have taught classes on statistical inference. I am only pointing out the limitations as to what conclusions you can draw on the basis of probability.Neil Rickert
August 28, 2011
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For instance, when YOU suggested “[a]ssume a completely random universe” do you mean a lawless universe where it is sheer coincidence and selection by success that creates the illusion of lawlike order?
My statement was intended to be vague. What it might mean played no role in the argument that I gave. I only made that statement to point out that my argument was not making any assumptions about how the universe got to be the way it is.Neil Rickert
August 28, 2011
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I’m afraid I cannot agree with your assertion that “physical constants are parameters that we have designed to allow us to describe the universe”.
Then it's a good thing that I never said that. I certainly don't agree with that alleged assertion. No, it is not just measuring units. We describe the universe using concepts. As best I can tell, there is nothing necessary about the particular concepts that we use. I could easily come up with completely different systems of concepts that could be used to describe the same universe. Sure, once we have a suitable system of concepts, then we determine constants according to data. But the system of concepts itself is a human design. To avoid that, you would need some system of concepts that is demonstrably independent of human activity. That's what would need to be canonical (in the mathematical sense). As long as we depend on a human created system of concepts, it is pretty much impossible to unravel the question of design. If the system of concepts is a human design, then everything that looks designed might merely be a result of that human design.
An alien civilization observing the cosmos would have just as much of a fine-tuning problem as we do, even if they expressed it in somewhat different terminology.
If we ever come across an alien civilization, and if we ever solve the communication problem so that we could "talk" to them, then we can ask. In the meantime, your statement seems to be no more than an unevidenced guess.Neil Rickert
August 28, 2011
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One doesn't have to have knowledge of a designer's motives and limitations in order to infer that something was designed. Indeed, one can only begin arguments about such motivations and limitations after one has first reached the reasonable, separate conclusion that the thing in question was probably designed. The design inference is abductive reasoning to best conclusion via comparison to a known commodity (human ID); it is no different than when we infer from evidence that in the past voclanic activity or meteor impact created features on other planets or moons. Such an inference is not ad hoc. The only thing that is "ad hoc" are the "too big, too cruel, too old" objections to the fine-tuning argument. One would necessarily have to be inserting ad hoc assertions about the motives and limitations of the designer in order to claim that the universe is too big, or too cruel, or too old to have been designed.William J Murray
August 28, 2011
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A lot of this turns round the extent to which the nature of the designer is specified and what is mean’t by possible (“possible” is always relative to some kind of impediment – the laws of logic, the laws of physics, the law of chess etc). Does the designer prefer: (a ) beautiful physical laws (b ) not to have vast amounts of non-living space and time (c ) avoiding pain Clearly the objections assume (b ) and (c ).  You appear to say (b ) and (c ) are not necessarily true of the designer – but (a ) is. When you say something can be imagined but is impossible – what kind of impossibility is this? Obviously something which the designer is incapable of overcoming!  So this implies another characteristic of the designer  - depending on the type of impossibility you have in mind. (d ) cannot create a universe which has both elegant laws and avoids the physical conditions which correspond to pain All of this leads up to what I think is the biggest single objection to both the fine-tuning argument and ID as applied OOL.  Collins explains it rather well in the excellent paper you link to.  If we are to consider the design hypothesis as an alternative explanation for anything then it must not be “ad hoc”.  If we just look at the universe and note that it has characteristics x,y and z – then of course an omnipotent designer who wants a universe with characteristics x,y and z is a perfect explanation. And of course this is totally unsatisfactory. As Collins explains – there has to be some independent reason for supposing such a designer exists.  As I see it the objections you take on above make certain implicit assumptions about the designer based on their idea of what the designer wants and is capable of doing.  You respond by questioning those assumptions.  That is all very well – but at some point the design hypothesis has to put a stake in the ground and say something about this designer and the independent grounds for believing it exists.  Otherwise you are creating an ad hoc explanation – a designer which has motives and limitations which correspond to what we observe.markf
August 28, 2011
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F/N: one way to look at the cardinality challenge is that for all we know the physical parameters may vary continuously, but sub-cosmi bubble up one at a time. the former specifies a contiunnum-cardinality, the latter, a countable cardinality. the former is "infinitely" bigger than the latter, i.e you cannot adequately scan a continuum for isolated and UNrepresentative points, by random individual samples, even infinitely many of them! [This is an extension of the finite search space challenge for trying to capture the islands of function in genome space, though in that case the search is finite and the space is also finite. Just YOU EXHAUST PLANCK TIME QUANTUM STATE ATOMIC RESOURCES WAY BEFORE YOU CAN ADEQUATELY SAMPLE THE CONFIG SPACE OF A GENOME FOR ORIGINAL LIFE OR A MAJOR NEW BODY PLAN.]kairosfocus
August 28, 2011
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Pardon NR: I think, first, the issue VJT raises is pretty straightforward, he is asking you to clarify your terms. For instance, when YOU suggested "[a]ssume a completely random universe" do you mean a lawless universe where it is sheer coincidence and selection by success that creates the illusion of lawlike order? VJT then went on to put on the table the serious alternatives under discussion. (Having already pointed to a useful survey in the OP.) So far as we can observe, the cosmos seems to obey the same set of laws across its width. That at minimum makes the cosmos within our horizon credibly a zone in which one particular set of parameters and laws obtains, and since we are discussing science in a context of human beings, it seems rather selectively hyperskeptical to stipulate "you would need a system for describing the universe that was completely independent of human influence." Especially, when you also say: "Physical constants are parameters in the system that we have designed to allow us to describe the universe." We have indeed developed various models of the cosmos across time, and have used them to describe the evident lawlike order of the universe, however provisionally. So, in all we do, there is provisionality, that is the nature of scientific thought and knowledge claims, and it holds for ALL scientific work. Indeed, such provisionality holds for all cases of claimed knowledge on empirical observation or "facts." We are finite and fallible. That by no means suffices to negate that with our present studies we have seen that the empirical data warrants a certain set of factual claims about our cosmos:
[e.g. expansion, a beginning, certain descriptive laws about its behaviour as a whole and of the various aspects of it such as say the properties of H2O which point to the roots of the cosmos and raise issues of fine tuning of the overarching laws of the cosmos per Hoyle's notes since 1953],
. . . and there are certain candidate explanations for such a cosmos as we see, explanations that are physical models with certain parameters, and in a context where successor models will have to at least as well explain what these models explain. Now, that is our context as practitioners of science. In that context, it is indeed legitimate to ask questions about the antecedent odds of a sub-cosmos like ours bubbling up, given that we are here and that this entails on the scientific evidence that there must be origins conditions and constraints that are consistent with our being here. For argument, accept the multiverse claims, and address the onward import, of a "cosmos bakery" that has to be set up right to scan the zone of parameter space where we sit, sufficiently well to plausibly throw up at least one sub cosmos habitable by the likes of us, with H, He, C, O and N as the first five most abundant elements [with also a sprinkling of other key elements], and having the properties that make C-chemistry, aqueous medium cell based life possible. Fine tuned, well wired operating point based systems point to designers, on strong empirical warrant. (And if they did not, we would not be seeing the sort of abstruse objections instead that we are seeing. So, we know the reasonable default position, absent a priori materialism a la Lewontin et al.) In that context, sorry, but it is your main objection above that does not look very plausible:
Assume a completely random universe. a --> Clarification of what is meant here is conspicuously missing in action, despite request. b --> On the reasonable interpretation that we are looking art at least a bubble cosmos, we find reason to believe that this bubble has consistent laws across it. c --> So, what is to be addressed would be an underlying cosmos as a whole that bubbles up at least one such sub-cosmos with evidently fine-tuned C-chemistry cell based life friendly parameters. The appropriate probability is the conditional probability that the universe will support human life, given the condition that human life arose in that universe. c --> Looking at the matter from the wrong end. d --> That we are here to observe implies the cosmos must be consistent with that, which then raises issues as to how that condition came to be. A cosmos that credibly had a beginning. So, it is not self-explanatory. e --> This then leads to the issue of the sort of required generating laws of a cosmos that would be consistent with the existence, abundance and peculiar properties of water, and with the abundance and properties of H, He, C, N, and O etc. The conditional probability is 1. That is to say, it is a certainty. f --> That the cosmos, looking back, must NOW be such that humans are possible and even actual, does not sweep off the table the question, what is required for such a contingent universe to come into being. And therefore there is no argument that the improbability of the universe suggests non-randomness. g --> Do you see how you have set up and knocked over a strawman? h --> Hint: the relevant issue is that we live in a cosmos that had a beginning, is contingent and is evidently lawlike. The relevant laws so far as we can discover, are not internally constrained to take the values they have. And, the actual values seem to be set at a fine tuned operating point. So it is quite reasonable to look at why such contingency is manifested, in light of the two main candidate explanations for high contingency, chance and choice. i --> Even if it were the case that there is a prevailing super-law or mechanism that forces our sub cosmos to be as it is, that too would be subject to the same question of its fine tuning. In short this issue is not so easily swept off the table.
Do you see why the objections you have made look rather strained, misdirected and weak? GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 28, 2011
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Hi Neil, I'm afraid I cannot agree with your assertion that "physical constants are parameters that we have designed to allow us to describe the universe". If you're talking about measuring units, then of course that is a choice; however, if you're talking about the physical parameters that they measure, they are a "given" - an objective feature of the cosmos. An alien civilization observing the cosmos would have just as much of a fine-tuning problem as we do, even if they expressed it in somewhat different terminology.vjtorley
August 27, 2011
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Some pretty sobering issues and points.kairosfocus
August 27, 2011
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F/N 2: What are the odds of a Reginald Mitchell [or a similarly competent designer], given a Spitfire?kairosfocus
August 27, 2011
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On #1, the fact that an atheist questions why a Designer would so such-and-such is not a positive argument against a Designer. If anything, it presumes a Designer exists! And #1 has already found its answer anyway, in the old-earth perspective. On the old earth view, the creator God of the Bible used the time and materials of 10B years of star formation to provide sufficient quantities of metals and elements necessary for highly advanced, intelligent life. Without sufficient space between a multitude of necessary stars, the universe would simply collapse upon itself. Obviously this didn't happen, since the expansion rate of the universe is one of the best tested and confirmed discoveries in all of science. On #2, that also has been answered by the old earth perspective. The age of the universe corresponds to the rate of star formation, star death and supernovae (that spreads life-essential material) throughout the universe, the expansion rate and other finely tuned parameters. Life began at just the right time in cosmic history as soon as the essential metals and elements would be both present and amazingly abundant on a single, finely tuned planet strategically placed in the best place for both life and scientific observation. The question has been answered. Do atheists have a more compelling alternative? Not one that doesn't require blind faith in something that does nothing...chance. On #3, this is just icing on the cake. Let's put all three atheist objections together and see how it sounds as a single argument. 1-3 is thus stating, "The universe is too old, too big and too cruel to have been designed. Therefore, the universe was not designed." Firstly, the atheist (or whoever) who makes this kind of argument assumes that the universe is cruel, but not cruel enough. If the universe was REALLY cruel, then there would be some universe-imposed prohibition on enjoying a cup of coffee at Starbucks, reading a good book, enjoying time with one's family or admiring beautiful aspects of the natural realm. Why would the universe only be cruel enough to allow what atheists believe is evil, but not what others believe is evil? Really. Any universe that is old, big and allowed the ant I stepped on this morning to suffer for a minute pales in comparison to a universe that prohibits me from having a coffee at Starbucks, reading a good book, spending time with my family or admiring the beauty of nature. Is the debate settled then? Not quite. There seems to be a silent debate among atheists on this matter of a cruel universe. Some think the universe is cruel , since one of their most vociferous number is well known for stating... "The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind pitiless indifference." How a blind, pitiless, indifferent universe and a cruel, evil universe can co-exist is an interesting question. Why atheists would care how cruel the universe is, or its designer, merely demonstrates that the universe is not the way they say it is. Thus, we don't live in an atheist (or at least Dawkinish) universe. Next, it assumes that suffering is evil, which is bad. Of course they don't believe they have any epistemic responsibility to show that such a designer/God wouldn't have a sufficient moral reason for allowing or causing that suffering. They just hope nobody notices this little omission. Rather than face up to the challenge of having a backbone (in other words, make a positive case) for their view, they make money from their faithful by book and video sales, and hope that the masses are converted to their cause via taxpayer funded public broadcasting, glossy magazine covers and government imposed science curricula that seek to indoctrinate the philosophies of naturalism, scientism and atheism into innocent, impressionable minds of young children in taxpayer funded classrooms instead of focusing on good science. Such underhanded, Machiavellian measures aren't evidence of a compelling world view, but of fear. It's evidence of a few disgruntled atheists who cannot resolve the difficulties the implications their own world view invites, imposing their emotional and philosophical baggage on the rest of us within a framework of scientific terminology, bullying and lawsuits. Sure, a few are converted to their cause. The majority are not. Why is that? Because the argument from evil is just an emotional argument, not an argument grounded in objective reality. Most people want to keep it real. Most people are more interested in truth than the emotional hang-ups of atheists who make poor arguments. For those atheists who ask such questions as 1-3 as VJTorley has stated...and seriously...I have a few questions myself...questions I should have asked myself when I was once an atheist. When did the universe begin to have the capacity to inflict cruelty upon its inhabitants? Is cruelty in the universe an emergent quality? Exactly how cruel is the designer (or the universe) anyway? Has the designer/ God always been cruel, or did we humans just put him in a bad mood? Is this the same designer (universe) that allows goodness, kindness and love to exist?Bantay
August 27, 2011
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F/N: I should note that this is not meant to be a deductive proof, but an inference on evidence, to credibility of an explanation as a possibility. It then opens the door to looking at other evidence, instead of shutting out what else is there. But for those who want nicely slammed and tightly bolted doors . . .kairosfocus
August 27, 2011
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Pardon NR But it looks like it is you who are misinterpreting. You have inserted an a posteriori into your a priori estimation. Which is what S9A -- great aircraft BTW (and, a Spitfire points to a Reginald Mitchell as its best explanation . . . ) -- was highlighting. Yes, that we do exist entails that the cosmos is such that we must be possible to exist. But, when we look at what that in turn requires at origins of said cosmos, we then find that the circumstances are peculiar indeed. It is most definitely not fallacious to ask why those circumstances, when we see that there are dozens of factors that if tipped a tad one way or another, would lead to a cosmos wildly inhospitable to life like ours. And that holds even if there are other possible zones of correlated parameters that would make for regions that would not be fine-tuned like this. So far as we can see, our observed cosmos sits at a rather fine-tuned cosmological operating point that facilitates C-chemistry cell based life as we enjoy. Given the challenges implied in a multi-component complex system that exhibits such functionally specific complex organisation, and associated implied prescriptive information, on our experience of what is needed to set up things that have that sort of wiring diagram and co-tuned component architecture, it is highly reasonable to infer the best explanation as design. At a crude level, when I see a well tempered audio amplifier exhibiting great class AB bias with good bandwidth and minimal distortions, I infer to design, not good luck. There is no reasonable lottery on the gamut of the observed cosmos that would give rise to such an amp by lucky chance. And just so, when the cosmos itself looks a lot like such an amp, I am most definitely not irrational to infer that it points beyond itself to a designer. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 27, 2011
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By “completely random”, do you mean one where physical constants are allowed to vary at random, in different regions of space-time?
Sorry, but I cannot make sense of that. Physical constants are parameters in the system that we have designed to allow us to describe the universe. The Ptolemaic astronomers had a very different system for describing the universe, and very different parameters (physical constants). To pose the question that way, you would need a system for describing the universe that was completely independent of human influence, preferably a system that is canonical (in the mathematical sense of "canonical"). I doubt that is possible.Neil Rickert
August 27, 2011
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You are misinterpreting. What is clear, is that the probability that everything happened just right for you to win was 1. This is a conclusion about past events. You cannot use it to draw conclusions about unknown future events.Neil Rickert
August 27, 2011
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Neil: I won the lottery last week. When asked about the odds, I said 1:1. Since I had won the lottery, it was clear that the probability for winning the lottery was a certainty. Fail.SpitfireIXA
August 27, 2011
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Hi Neil, Thank you for your comment. Your argument seems to contain an ambiguity. You wrote: "Assume a completely random universe." By "completely random", do you mean one where physical constants are allowed to vary at random, in different regions of space-time? In that case, then you would be wrong to assume that the conditional probability that some region of space-time within this cosmos will be hospitable to life. It might appear that with an infinite amount of time and space, sooner or later some life-friendly bubble of space-time would turn up, but that would be a mistaken supposition. The reason, in a nutshell, is that not all infinities are equal. Physicist Rob Sheldon argues that the infinity of possible universes you can get by branching is aleph-1, but the number you can get by varying the physical constants is only aleph-0. Aleph-0 divided by aleph-1 is still infinitesimal. See Infinitely wrong by Dr. Rob Sheldon. If on the other hand you assume that the physical constants are NOT allowed to vary in your cosmos, then I have to ask: what keeps them fixed? Why are they not allowed to vary by even a tiny amount? Grant me even this tiny amount, and I can generate a "fly-on-the-wall" cosmological fine-tuning argument. There is nothing we know about the constants of nature that suggests that they are necessary facts. They seem to be utterly contingent - in which case, it is reasonable to ask why they are that way.vjtorley
August 27, 2011
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The fine tuning argument always seemed fallacious to me, even back at a time when I was religious. Assume a completely random universe. The appropriate probability is the conditional probability that the universe will support human life, given the condition that human life arose in that universe. The conditional probability is 1. That is to say, it is a certainty. And therefore there is no argument that the improbability of the universe suggests non-randomness.Neil Rickert
August 27, 2011
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There is a strong undercurrent in the many variants of the "Why Isn't the World Perfect" line of arguing, and it is this: In trying to rebut the notion of an omnipotent and omniscient God, they argue as if God merely rubbed His lamp and commanded a genie to make things as they are, and posit that they would have commanded the genie differently. That is full-blown straw man argumentation. An omniscient creator does not merely toss a series of unrelated desiderata into the mix and call the world created; instead, such a being works with the full knowledge of every detail and consequence across the entire spatial and temporal domain on which He works. Not a single event, whether past, present, or future, is independent of the remainder of the macrocosmic universe, and yet the atheist argues as if—for instance—the death of an innocent child can be treated as an absolute tragedy which could have been reversed without any repercussions to the remainder of the world. That God did not do as we think best is by no means a conclusive argument against His being.EvilSnack
August 27, 2011
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Another thing I think should be noted, VJ, is that none of those atheist arguments can even pretend to be proofs against the existence of God. They are merely difficulties that would seem to require further explanation. Therefore, for instance, even if you were to find the-problem-of-evil argument compelling, the most you could say in its behalf is, "Yes, it does seem strange that a good God would allow these things." The arguments for the existence of God, on the other hand, are intended to be actual proofs, whether evidential or apodictic. Therefore, if these arguments are successful, then the rational person will be compelled by them to positively affirm the existence of God, not just recognize difficulties in the atheist position. From this it is easy to see that one could accept all the atheist arguments as being truly valid difficulties, while affirming God's existence according to the evidence and apodictic proofs.George R.
August 27, 2011
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