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The Very Tiny Edge of Evolution

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There’s an item today at PhysOrg concerning an article in this week’s Science magazine. According to the study conducted on a bacterial population using a technique wherein mutations could be inserted anywhere along the length of the genome, each and every bacterial mutation had the same small effect on fitness of 0.5%, no matter if the mutation took place in a protein sequence or in a so-called non-coding section. I’m just bringing your attention to it. It would seem that for those who wish to use the RM + NS motif of Darwinian evolution, this study pretty much spells this motif’s deathknell. If the average mutation reduces fitness, how does any living organism improve? And, how can NS distinguish between mutations if they all look the same? Remember, per Dawkins, NS is what makes a random process no longer random. So, now, if one wants to posit that the accumulation of many such mutations can bring about improvement, then one has to maintain that the accumulation of bad stuff eventually makes good stuff—which, let us say, isn’t immediately obvious, and, one has to say this accumulation happened in a non-directed way.

Certainly, all of this is counter-intuitive. But, alas, that is exactly what Darwinism was from its beginning: the positing of the counter-intuitive in place of the intuitive. This study strongly suggests that the counter-intuitive remains counter-intuitive. And it becomes the other bookend to Michael Behe’s criticism of RM + NS in his The Edge of Evolution in undermining any remaining confidence one might have in the reigning neo-Darwinian motif. Isn’t it time to jettison the illogical? For me personally, “neo-Darwinism is dead” ( to quote Allen MacNeil). Now we can see why.

Comments
Pedant: It is extremely interesting to note from all observational evidence we now have that the principle of Genetic Entropy lends itself very well to mathematical analysis by computer simulation: "No human investigation can be called true science without passing through mathematical tests." Leonardo Da Vinci Using Computer Simulation to Understand Mutation Accumulation Dynamics and Genetic Load: Excerpt: We apply a biologically realistic forward-time population genetics program to study human mutation accumulation under a wide-range of circumstances. Using realistic estimates for the relevant biological parameters, we investigate the rate of mutation accumulation, the distribution of the fitness effects of the accumulating mutations, and the overall effect on mean genotypic fitness. Our numerical simulations consistently show that deleterious mutations accumulate linearly across a large portion of the relevant parameter space. http://bioinformatics.cau.edu.cn/lecture/chinaproof.pdf MENDEL’S ACCOUNTANT: J. SANFORD†, J. BAUMGARDNER‡, W. BREWER§, P. GIBSON¶, AND W. REMINE http://mendelsaccount.sourceforge.net http://www.scpe.org/vols/vol08/no2/SCPE_8_2_02.pdf A comparative approach for the investigation of biological information processing: An examination of the structure and function of computer hard drives and DNA – David J D’Onofrio1, Gary An – Jan. 2010 Excerpt: It is also important to note that attempting to reprogram a cell’s operations by manipulating its components (mutations) is akin to attempting to reprogram a computer by manipulating the bits on the hard drive without fully understanding the context of the operating system. (T)he idea of redirecting cellular behavior by manipulating molecular switches may be fundamentally flawed; that concept is predicated on a simplistic view of cellular computing and control. Rather, (it) may be more fruitful to attempt to manipulate cells by changing their external inputs: in general, the majority of daily functions of a computer are achieved not through reprogramming, but rather the varied inputs the computer receives through its user interface and connections to other machines. http://www.tbiomed.com/content/7/1/3 Whereas, evolution has no rigorous mathematical foundation with which we can rigorously analyze it in any computer simulation: Accounting for Variations - Dr. David Berlinski: - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW2GkDkimkE LIFE’S CONSERVATION LAW - William Dembski - Robert Marks - Pg. 13 Excerpt: Simulations such as Dawkins’s WEASEL, Adami’s AVIDA, Ray’s Tierra, and Schneider’s ev appear to support Darwinian evolution, but only for lack of clear accounting practices that track the information smuggled into them.,,, Information does not magically materialize. It can be created by intelligence or it can be shunted around by natural forces. But natural forces, and Darwinian processes in particular, do not create information. Active information enables us to see why this is the case. http://evoinfo.org/publications/lifes-conservation-law/ Conservation of Information in Computer Search (COI) - William A. Dembski - Robert J. Marks II - Dec. 2009 Excerpt: COI puts to rest the inflated claims for the information generating power of evolutionary simulations such as Avida and ev. http://evoinfo.org/publications/bernoullis-principle-of-insufficient-reason/ Evolutionary Synthesis of Nand Logic: Dissecting a Digital Organism - Dembski - Marks - Dec. 2009 Excerpt: The effectiveness of a given algorithm can be measured by the active information introduced to the search. We illustrate this by identifying sources of active information in Avida, a software program designed to search for logic functions using nand gates. Avida uses stair step active information by rewarding logic functions using a smaller number of nands to construct functions requiring more. Removing stair steps deteriorates Avida’s performance while removing deleterious instructions improves it. http://evoinfo.org/publications/evolutionary-synthesis-of-nand-logic-avida/ The Problem of Information for the Theory of Evolution – debunking Schneider's ev computer simulation Excerpt: In several papers genetic binding sites were analyzed using a Shannon information theory approach. It was recently claimed that these regulatory sequences could increase information content through evolutionary processes starting from a random DNA sequence, for which a computer simulation was offered as evidence. However, incorporating neglected cellular realities and using biologically realistic parameter values invalidate this claim. The net effect over time of random mutations spread throughout genomes is an increase in randomness per gene and decreased functional optimality. http://www.trueorigin.org/schneider.asp etc.. etc.. etc..bornagain77
November 6, 2010
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Pedant: what is the cumulative effect, on what grounds? With what observational base? Gkairosfocus
November 6, 2010
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DS: While indeed helocentrism is counter to the appearance of the sky on a naive look, as I pointed out to my 1st Form geography teacher [and got into trouble for "correcting teacher . . . "], the Sun IS moving, around galactic centre (and as a part of a local cluster). Orbital period estimated ~ 200 MY. A planet and the sun actually mutually orbit a common barycentre, which is in this case located within the sun due to the balance of masses. Gkairosfocus
November 6, 2010
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gpuccio, It's hardly the first step in analyzing fitness effects; it's just a different approach to analyzing small effects that might otherwise be hard to detect. For a broader view, see, for example: Nature Reviews Genetics 8, 610-618(2007) The distribution of fitness effects of new mutations Adam Eyre-Walker & Peter D. Keightley "The distribution of fitness effects (DFE) of new mutations is a fundamental entity in genetics that has implications ranging from the genetic basis of complex disease to the stability of the molecular clock. It has been studied by two different approaches: mutation accumulation and mutagenesis experiments, and the analysis of DNA sequence data. The proportion of mutations that are advantageous, effectively neutral and deleterious varies between species, and the DFE differs between coding and non-coding DNA. Despite these differences between species and genomic regions, some general principles have emerged: advantageous mutations are rare, and those that are strongly selected are exponentially distributed; and the DFE of deleterious mutations is complex and multi-modal."Pedant
November 6, 2010
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A little more on 'counterintuitive' 'heliocentrism',,, I find it extremely interesting, and strange, that quantum mechanics tells us that instantaneous quantum wave collapse to its 'uncertain' 3-D state is centered on each individual observer in the universe, whereas, 4-D space-time cosmology tells us each 3-D point in the universe is central to the expansion of the universe. These findings of modern science are pretty much exactly what we would expect to see if this universe were indeed created from a higher dimension by a omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal Being who knows everything that is happening everywhere in the universe at the same time. These findings certainly seem to go to the very heart of the old question asked of many parents by their children, “How can God hear everybody’s prayers at the same time?”,,, i.e. Why should the expansion of the universe, or the quantum wave collapse of the entire universe, even care that you or I exist? Only Theism offers a rational explanation as to why you or I, or anyone else, should have such undeserved significance in such a vast universe: Psalm 33:13-15 The LORD looks from heaven; He sees all the sons of men. From the place of His dwelling He looks on all the inhabitants of the earth; He fashions their hearts individually; He considers all their works. The expansion of every 3D point in the universe, and the quantum wave collapse of the entire universe to each point of conscious observation in the universe, is obviously a very interesting congruence in science between the very large (relativity) and the very small (quantum mechanics). A congruence that Physicists, and Mathematicians, seem to be having a extremely difficult time 'unifying' into a 'theory of everything'.(Einstein, Penrose). Yet, this unification, into a 'theory of everything', between what is in essence the 'infinite world of Quantum Mechanics' and the 'finite world of the space-time of General Relativity' seems to be directly related to what Jesus apparently joined together with His resurrection, i.e. related to the unification of infinite God with finite man: The Center Of The Universe Is Life - General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy and The Shroud Of Turin - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/5070355 The End Of Christianity - Finding a Good God in an Evil World - Pg.31 William Dembski PhD. Mathematics Excerpt: "In mathematics there are two ways to go to infinity. One is to grow large without measure. The other is to form a fraction in which the denominator goes to zero. The Cross is a path of humility in which the infinite God becomes finite and then contracts to zero, only to resurrect and thereby unite a finite humanity within a newfound infinity." http://www.designinference.com/documents/2009.05.end_of_xty.pdfbornagain77
November 6, 2010
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actually doomsday as far as heliocentrism goes: Quantum Enigma:Physics Encounters Consciousness - Richard Conn Henry - Professor of Physics - John Hopkins University Excerpt: It is more than 80 years since the discovery of quantum mechanics gave us the most fundamental insight ever into our nature: the overturning of the Copernican Revolution, and the restoration of us human beings to centrality in the Universe. And yet, have you ever before read a sentence having meaning similar to that of my preceding sentence? Likely you have not, and the reason you have not is, in my opinion, that physicists are in a state of denial… https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-quantum-enigma-of-consciousness-and-the-identity-of-the-designer/ the first part of this following paper goes into the 'counter-intuitive' fact: Let There Be Light http://lettherebelight-77.blogspot.com/2009/10/intelligent-design-anthropic-hypothesis_19.htmlbornagain77
November 6, 2010
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Pedant, it is not a 'matter of logic' since Darwinism presupposes 'no limit' to evolution. ,,, In your case it is a 'matter of faith' that the organism evolved in the first place with no substantiating evidence, it definitely is not 'a matter of logic' for you.bornagain77
November 6, 2010
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And, besides, heliocentrism is not counterintuitive, it is counterfactual:
That's not what "counterfactual" means. For that to apply, heliocentrism would have to be wrong. It doesn't matter that it seems to be based on the apparent motion of the sun. The sun was never moving: that was never a "fact", and it was the claims of geocentrism that were, in fact, counterfactual. That's what makes heliocentrism counterintuitive by the way: the idea that the sun isn't actually moving in the way it so "obviously" is (or rather, appears to be), but that instead the Earth is turning about an axis while simultaneously following an elliptical orbit roughly centered on the sun. It violates expectation, common sense, and, yes, intuition. Look both terms up if you don't believe me. You'll find they don't mean what you think they mean.Doomsday Smith
November 6, 2010
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Pedant: There is no doubt that further research is needed. And it will come. But this is an important first step. And this is the right way to test darwinian assumptions.gpuccio
November 6, 2010
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gpuccio, you are right, I am very happy, from a scientific point of view, with the overwhelming 'slightly deleterious' result. The study is an absolute diamond. Evolution vs. Genetic Entropy - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4028086 As to the intuitive/counter-intuitive discussion, I find that QM is actually 'intuitive' when looked at from a theistic perspective and is only counter-intuitive from a materialistic perspective,,, and here is why. "Materialism predicted at the base of physical reality would be a solid indestructible material particle which rigidly obeyed the rules of time and space, Theism predicted the basis of this reality was created by a infinitely powerful, and transcendent, Being who is not limited by time and space - Quantum mechanics reveals a wave/particle duality for the basis of our reality which blatantly defies our concepts of time and space. - ,,, Thus QM is actually what one should expect, (intuit), to find at the basis of our reality from a Theistic perspective, while it is only 'counter-intuitive' to the materialist to find as such at the basis of reality. Dr. Quantum - Double Slit Experiment & Entanglement - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4096579 The Electron - The Supernatural Basis of Reality - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5312315/ etc.. etc.. further note on the 'counter-intuitive' basis of reality: Materialism predicted the rate at which time passed was constant everywhere in the universe, Theism predicted God is eternal and is outside of time - Special Relativity has shown that time, as we understand it, is relative and comes to a complete stop at the speed of light. (Psalm 90:4 - 2 Timothy 1:9) "I've just developed a new theory of eternity." Albert Einstein http://www.rd.com/your-america-inspiring-people-and-stories/best-brainac/article37176-2.html "The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass." Light and Quantum Entanglement Reflect Some Characteristics Of God - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4102182 'In the 'spirit world,,, instantly, there was no sense of time. See, everything on earth is related to time. You got up this morning, you are going to go to bed tonight. Something is new, it will get old. Something is born, it's going to die. Everything on the physical plane is relative to time, but everything in the spiritual plane is relative to eternity. Instantly I was in total consciousness and awareness of eternity, and you and I as we live in this earth cannot even comprehend it, because everything that we have here is filled within the veil of the temporal life. In the spirit life that is more real than anything else and it is awesome. Eternity as a concept is awesome. There is no such thing as time. I knew that whatever happened was going to go on and on.' Mickey Robinson - Near Death Experience testimony 'When you die, you enter eternity. It feels like you were always there, and you will always be there. You realize that existence on Earth is only just a brief instant.' Dr. Ken Ring - has extensively studied Near Death Experiencesbornagain77
November 6, 2010
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PaV, it's a matter of logic. It is a stretch to claim that mutational changes that decrease fitness in an already highly adapted structure (the ribosome) in an already highly adapted organism (Salmonella typhimurium) can be extrapolated into a claim that all mutations throughout biology can only and ever decrease fitness. This study built upon studies with viruses, and the results differed in detail. This is a new approach to analyzing the genetic basis of fitness that needs to be tested further. Further work along these lines with other organisms may or may not differ in detail and may or may not support your claim.Pedant
November 6, 2010
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Pedant: Read the entirety of what I posted. Since you want to nit-pick, then, relying on this study's results I'll rephrase: If every mutation is bad (except for the 3% that MIGHT be neutral)and so reduces fitness (or leaves it unchanged), then how can things improve?PaV
November 6, 2010
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Doomsday Seven: Do you have proof that the earth is round? Do you have proof that the planets circle the sun? Do you have proof that Young's two-slit experiment actually works? Do lasers really work? There's ways of testing all of these things aren't there? But when you test the central premises of Darwinism, they all fall apart. Darwin specifically invokes the example of heliocentrism as a way of justifying his counterintuitive approach; but as gpuccio has pointed out, this approach isn't always how things turn out, and, in fact, it usually turns out to be wrong. And, besides, heliocentrism is not counterintuitive, it is counterfactual: we see (not intuit) the sun moving across our skyline. And as gpuccio mentions, only QM is really counterintuitive since light acts both as particle and wave, which truly doesn't make sense. But one does 'intuit' design when one sees mammalian complexity and function. Darwin's counterintuitivism mainly relied on the work of Charles Lyell, who also had the rather counterintuitive idea that large scale changes in geology can be accounted for by small changes applied over a long period of time: the view that gradualism succeeds over catastrophism, a view that Darwin took over to biology. But one can see erosion taking place; one can see earthquakes causing changes in ground positions. But one CAN'T see mutations helping organisms. So why believe that it is otherwise? Over the last month, it's been reported that genetic sweeps are not complete, and now that mutations have little effect. These are the very guts of neo-Darwinism. And they turn out not to be true. There's nothing left to the theory. So now evolutionists have moved onto evo-devo. Yet this leaves unanswered the whole question of the origin of genomic information: whence did it come? It's acceptable to be counterintuitive at times; but proof, in the end, needs to be demonstrated. Or, as physicists often say: extraordinary demands require extraordinary evidence. There's no evidence for Darwinism; only "just-so" stories. Excuse me for wanting more for so bold a statement as all that appears to be designed actually came about through random happenstances.PaV
November 6, 2010
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PaV:
If the average mutation reduces fitness, how does any living organism improve?
If the average height of a male in China is 68 inches, how could Yao Ming be 90 inches tall?Pedant
November 6, 2010
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Mung: The counter-intuitive claim of darwinism is expressed very well by Dawkins: that all that in biology appears designed, all that has always be considered designed for centuries or millennia, is indeed not designed, and has come into existence through purely unguided mechanisms. This is really counter-intuitive. The evidence of design in the living world is so overwhelming that living beings have always been considered, in the past, as precious works of intelligence. The concept that they have come out unguided, without any intelligent intervention, is truly counter-intuitive, so much so that it has been called also "Darwin's dangerous idea", to emphasized not so much its cognitive value, but rather its presumed boldness. The fact, the very sad fact indeed, is that more than one century of darwinian propaganda has conditioned so deeply the general way of thinking that now, any time one wonders at the complexity of living beings, one's subconscious mind is ready to suggest: "Hey, be careful! Remember that what appears to be designed is only the product of unguided evolution." So, it almost seems "intuitive" to consider design non designed: all deeply ingrained dogmas, after all, have that effect after some time. The paradoxical aspect of all that is that, in a sense, Darwin and his contemporaries were certainly more "justified" in taking that counter-intuitive leap: while even then the evidence of design already was, indeed always had been, overwhelming, there can really be no comparison between what they knew of biological complexity and what we know today. While taking the leap of unguided origin was certainly a very bold (and IMO already unjustified) choice then, it is certainly complete folly today.gpuccio
November 6, 2010
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You have misread even the abstract of this paper. "We used a bacterial system in which the fitness effects of a large number of defined single mutations in two ribosomal proteins were measured with high sensitivity." The authors actually induced a large number of mutations in two genes, not along the whole of the genome. Furthermore, both genes are not essential for viability, but deletion of each of these genes leads to severely impaired fitness.GrumpyBob
November 6, 2010
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Yet my claim, which you do not even attempt to address, is that Darwinism appears to be at first glance intuitive (contrary to the claims of the OP). What is the primary claim of Darwinism? Why is that claim counter-intuitive? What do you think the primary claim of Darwinism is? Why do you think it's intuitive?nullasalus
November 5, 2010
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My post @12 ws sent before I was aware of the post at @11.Mung
November 5, 2010
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Darwinism is supported by huge non explanatory ideological and dogmatic power, and by nothing else.
Yet my claim, which you do not even attempt to address, is that Darwinism appears to be at first glance intuitive (contrary to the claims of the OP). What is the primary claim of Darwinism? Why is that claim counter-intuitive?Mung
November 5, 2010
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Mung: The near universal acceptance of neo darwinism can be explained on ideological grounds. The theory has become one of the basic weapons of the currently widespread, and powerful, reductionist materialist ideology (the other being strong AI). And methodological naturalism is the epistemological dogma which tries to justify a philosophical position as a scientific absolute. As usual, and as philosophers of science have well understood, idological pre-conceptions shape the scientific approach. I must say, however, that darwinism is really one of the worst examples of that. Today, it is really an intellectual shame. The simple fact that being counter-intuitive is now presented (even in this thread) as a merit, instead of a problem, is a measure of the intellectual arrogance of contemporary scientism.gpuccio
November 5, 2010
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Doomsday Smith: Should we list the thousands of cases where human intuition was right? Counter-intuitive views are sometimes (very rarely) true and important, although the only truly counterintuitive theory in your list is QM. But they must be supported by huge explanatory power to be really accepted as true and important. Darwinism is supported by huge non explanatory ideological and dogmatic power, and by nothing else.gpuccio
November 5, 2010
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PaV: Extremely interesting, as usual. that is exactly what Darwinism was from its beginning: the positing of the counter-intuitive in place of the intuitive. This study strongly suggests that the counter-intuitive remains counter-intuitive A very good way to sum up a very good point. And the paper seems really interesting. Unfortunately, it is not free. Here is the abstract, anyway: "Mutational Robustness of Ribosomal Protein Genes Peter A. Lind,1 Otto G. Berg,2 Dan I. Andersson1,* The distribution of fitness effects (DFE) of mutations is of fundamental importance for understanding evolutionary dynamics and complex diseases and for conserving threatened species. DFEs estimated from DNA sequences have rarely been subject to direct experimental tests. We used a bacterial system in which the fitness effects of a large number of defined single mutations in two ribosomal proteins were measured with high sensitivity. The obtained DFE appears to be unimodal, where most mutations (120 out of 126) are weakly deleterious and the remaining ones are potentially neutral. The DFEs for synonymous and nonsynonymous substitutions are similar, suggesting that in some genes, strong fitness constraints are present at the level of the messenger RNA." The similar effect of synonymous and non synonimous substitutions as "slightly negative" mutations is one of the most interesting points (BA, you should be happy of that!). But the most important point is that someone is beginning to look at facts, and not only myths, to understand how the mutation/selection mechanism really works. As I have always said, it will be facts which will help to give the final blow to the huge unsubstantiated fantasies of darwinists. And now someone will probably come back with the silly argument: well these facts have been found by darwinist researchers. Yes. And they are precious just the same. As I often say, any good researcher is an ID researcher, because he is working for truth.gpuccio
November 5, 2010
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clearly agreement with human intuition is a horrible criterion.
Human intuition is wonderful. The problem with the OP is that it claims that Darwinism is counter-intuitive and then fails to explain it's near universal acceptance.Mung
November 5, 2010
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[T]he positing of the counter-intuitive in place of the intuitive.
Just like that "Earth is round" nonsense. OK, do-over: Just like that Heliocentrism nonsense... OK, lemme try that one more time: Just like that Quantum Mechanics nonsense... Alright, forget that: clearly agreement with human intuition is a horrible criterion.Doomsday Smith
November 5, 2010
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I believe it was in Dr. Lee Spetner’s book “Not By Chance” that I read the best analogy of how ridiculous it is to assume mutations can create complexity.
It was an analogy. What makes it the "best" analogy?Mung
November 5, 2010
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I believe it was in Dr. Lee Spetner's book "Not By Chance" that I read the best analogy of how ridiculous it is to assume mutations can create complexity. "To believe mutations can build up the genome over time is like the shopkeeper who lost a little money on each sale, but believed he could make up for it in volume"Blue_Savannah
November 5, 2010
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Certainly, all of this is counter-intuitive. But, alas, that is exactly what Darwinism was from its beginning: the positing of the counter-intuitive in place of the intuitive.
Surely this is false. Surely, Darwinism was at first accepted due to it's "intuitive" nature.Mung
November 5, 2010
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Please stop quoting Spetner. Surely, as a physicist, he could have produced a better analogy. Perhaps he could tell us why the laws of physics tell us a hydrogen bomb is impossible because the loss of information "is like the merchant who lost a little money on every sale but thought he could make it up on volume."Mung
November 5, 2010
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Pav said:
According to the study conducted on a bacterial population using a technique wherein mutations could be inserted anywhere along the length of the genome, each and every bacterial mutation had the same small effect on fitness of 0.5%, no matter if the mutation took place in a protein sequence or in a so-called non-coding section.
Pav, I suggest that you either brush up on your reading comprehension skills, or have someone fact check your writing before you publish. What the PhysOrg article actually says is:
The researchers have examined the impact of mutations on the rate of growth of the Salmonella bacterium and show that most mutations have generally very small effects.
and
Peter Lind showed that most mutations reduced the rate of growth of bacteria by only 0.500 percent.
THe .5 percent reduction in fitness is obviously an average:
No mutations completely disabled the function of the proteins, and very few had no impact at all.
And though you used the word 'average' later on, it is clear that you don't have the slightest understanding of the very important difference between 'each and every' and 'average'
If the average mutation reduces fitness, how does any living organism improve?
Organisms improve because some mutations are beneficial, while most others are neutral or harmful. Selection preserves the beneficial ones. This shouldn't be so hard to understand. This article makes it seem like you don't understand even the basics of evolutionary theory.jurassicmac
November 5, 2010
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Here is a quote you may appreciate PaV, "The neo-Darwinians would like us to believe that large evolutionary changes can result from a series of small events if there are enough of them. But if these events all lose information they can’t be the steps in the kind of evolution the neo-Darwin theory is supposed to explain, no matter how many mutations there are. Whoever thinks macroevolution can be made by mutations that lose information is like the merchant who lost a little money on every sale but thought he could make it up on volume." Lee Spetner (Ph.D. Physics - MIT - Not By Chance) Mutation Studies, Videos, And Quotes http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYmaSrBPNEmGZGM4ejY3d3pfMjZjZnM5M21mZgbornagain77
November 5, 2010
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