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The “We share 99% of our DNA with chimps” claim rises again

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Like Dracula it can’t really die, as it is culturally needed.* So it just keeps rising from the grave. Evidence is irrelevant.

In the context of giving apes human rights instead of protection, we read:

We share about 99% of our DNA with chimpanzees and it has been argued this makes ape experimenters 99% as bad as the Nazis. It has also been argued that the medical benefits obtained from experiments on chimpanzees have been minimal. The chances are that the advancement of medical research would suffer little if the apes were given new rights that protected them from these experimental procedures.

Most funding for chimp lab research in the United States was to end immediately in 2011, and the biggest problem is what to do with the chimps. The net effect, if not the intention, of giving apes rights they don’t understand and cannot use on their own will be to degrade civil liberties for humans. Just what civil liberties mean will be confused and confusing.

The above link from the The Telegraph is a remarkably stupid article, in a field with many close contenders.

For example, author Desmond Morris, who worked with a chimp, recounts:

When he was with us, the complexity of his brain never ceased to amaze me. There was one occasion when he caught a cold and could not appear on television. There were so many complaints from his fans that we obtained another small chimp to act as a stand-in. When Congo had recovered from his cold we decided to have both of them together on the next show. My assistant was standing by, holding one in each arm. Congo had been very friendly towards the new chimp, and we anticipated no trouble. Indeed, when I announced that Congo was about to appear, he leaned over towards the other little ape to kiss him. The newcomer protruded his lips for a friendly contact, whereupon Congo bit him hard and drew blood. The injured chimp started screaming and had to be rushed out of the room, leaving Congo as the sole star of the show. What is extraordinary about this incident is the timing of it. Congo waited until the crucial moment to dispose of his rival.

Aw, Morris, get out more.

I (O’Leary for News) have seen domestic kitties do exactly the same thing, and no one makes great claims for their intelligence, just their cunning in expressing spite.

(Yes, I have read Morris’s book about cats and found it superficial. Its redeeming feature is that they are, after all, only cats. His books on more intelligent creatures are more superficial.)

* Here is another dramatic example of the social use of off base 99% claims to facilitate nonsense. (Actual similarity figures are, obviously, much lower. See, for example,  Genomics scientist Jeffrey Tompkins takes issue with BioLogos’ we are 98% chimpanzee claim, and  Epigenetic differences between humans and chimps (vs. 98% similarity claims))

See also: Barry Arrington asks, “Here’s an interesting question. Would that same liberal judge extend habeas corpus rights to an eight pound human baby about to be chopped into pieces by an abortionist for the crime of not yet being born?” My answer is,  of course, not:

Any horror or injustice that can legally be perpetrated on any human being advances progressive causes. So it is an advantage to the progressive that unborn children can legally be killed by dismemberment, or if born alive by some other method, left to die in the soiled utility closet. Just as it is an advantage if the law equates chimps and humans.

Does anyone remember Baby Doe of Bloomington, Indiana, legally starved to death in a hospital at the behest of his parents, because he had Down syndrome? (No, I thought not.)

In the progressive’s ideal world, the chimp is has civil rights and the human doesn’t. And that, folks, is the general direction, fast forward.

Wasn’t the current U.S. president the only legislator in the Illinois senate who the refused to endorse protection for children born alive from abortions.** Yet he was wildly popular (including among Christians who stressed that they were “really” pro life anyway). And Americans elected him twice as their head of state.

But civil liberties would appear to be a dying concept anyway. And if they are understood as being shared with non-rational beings, the concept will die faster.

** The situation is worse in Canada.

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Comments
Mapou: "They are close to us genetically because we were designed by intelligent beings who did what intelligent designers everywhere always do: they reuse existing designs as much as possible." Even though I agree that there is design involved, your argument here is based on a statistical degrees of freedom of zero. And as anyone with even the most basic knowledge of statistics knows, drawing any conclusions by extrapolating from a single point is not possible. We cannot rely on comparing what we see in biology to all known designers because we only know of one designer, humans. To be taken seriously we have to stop using this comparison.unwilling participant
April 24, 2015
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T, true. wd400, by your own admission then, most of what you've said is irrelevant.Mung
April 24, 2015
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unwilling:
Chimps are still our closest relative.
No, they are not our relatives because the word 'relative' implies a family relation that involves procreation. They are close to us genetically because we were designed by intelligent beings who did what intelligent designers everywhere always do: they reuse existing designs as much as possible. In software engineering, it's called "adding functionality through class inheritance." Is a corvette a relative of a Ferrari, a horse drawn carriage or an SUV? No, they may just share similar designs (wheels, rear view mirrors, headlights, etc.)Mapou
April 24, 2015
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BA, I already told you why Tomkins is wrong, if you don't want to learn that's fine, got back to link spamming. Timeaus, I din't "ignore" anything. I only replied to the bit that bore any relation to anything I have said. No one is under any obligation to reply point by point to everything you say.wd400
April 24, 2015
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wd400: I see you ignored the most important part of my post. My agreement that the genomic similarity is high was merely prefatory to my more important point, which is that it doesn't matter that it's high, because no matter how high it is, the further inferences that all or many Darwinians draw from the similarity (e.g., there is no design, human beings are nothing special, chimps should have legal rights) are unwarranted. It's precisely because those further inferences are unwarranted that I'm not at all threatened by the genomic similarity, whether the number is 99%, 94%, 89%, or whatever. And the other side of the coin, which you seem to miss, is that atheists/materialists are just as guilty of making too much of the numbers, since they don't in themselves establish anything that's of interest.Timaeus
April 24, 2015
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My understanding of genome comparisons, and it is by no means comprehensive, is that the % similarity depends on the way the comparison is made. But regardless of the method used, chimps still come out as the closest to humans. Do does it really matter whether it is 99%, 95% or 90%? Chimps are still our closest relative.unwilling participant
April 24, 2015
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wd400, you are proven wrong. The data itself is what proves you wrong. Whereas, I can not stop you from lying about what the evidence says. In other words, Tomkins has access to the unfiltered raw data and that is what he bases his 70% analysis on. That you would try to belittle him to try to discredit his work is a typical dishonest tactic of Darwinists. Of related interest, Tomkins had a similar disagreement with Darwinists over the raw genetic data on the alleged chromosome fusion site that he debunked:
according to Miller. The fusion site is “more than 1,300 bases away from the gene,” he says, based on a review of major gene databanks. “These increasingly desperate efforts to ‘debunk’ the chromosome 2 story have failed before, and they’ve failed this time, too,” Miller concludes. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/so-why-are-the-human-and-chimpanzeebonobo-genomes-so-similar-a-reply-to-professor-larry-moran/#comment-493752 So who’s right: Tomkins or Miller? Short answer: Tomkins. Here’s a short reply from an academic who teaches microbiology: ENCODE is right. Tomkins pulls the data from ENCODE and there is clearly a gene transcribed across the fusion event. The gene is rather larger than the 1500 bp that Miller quotes. The gene is a helicase (if I remember correctly) expressed in various tissues throughout development. If you read Tomkins’ paper, he demonstrates where the supposed telomere ends are located, where additional centromeres are supposedly located, and how the region is transcriptionally active (a hallmark associated with non-telomeric DNA). https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/so-why-are-the-human-and-chimpanzeebonobo-genomes-so-similar-a-reply-to-professor-larry-moran/#comment-493752 DNA slam dunk! - Jeffrey Tomkins' interview - Jan. 30, 2015 - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZoto0nyHho Ken Miller personally admitted to Dr Tomkins that he was wrong about chromosome fusion (11:00 minute mark).
Seeing as Tomkins pretty much single handedly debunked Chromosome fusion, and had Miller personally concede that to him that he had done so, then I'm sticking with Tomkins's assessment of the inherent bias with which Darwinists drastically 'pre-filter' the similarity data to fit their preconceived conclusion. You guys simply have no credibility with me. a few more notes on the fusion controversy:
Alleged Human Chromosome 2 “Fusion Site” Encodes an Active DNA Binding Domain Inside a Complex and Highly Expressed Gene—Negating Fusion - by Jeffrey P. Tomkins - October 16, 2013 http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/arj/v6/n1/human-chromosome-fusion Human Chromosome Fusion Debunked - Jeffrey P. Tomkins - Oct. 26, 2013 http://designed-dna.org/blog/files/3e06d2e493f6210f9ceaaf555397ec29-86.php Defenders Of The Evolutionary ‘Consensus’ Could Benefit From More Fact Checking - Casey Luskin - Aug. 27, 2014 Excerpt: Mooney,, took aim at a creationist biologist named Jeff Tomkins who had searched gene databases and discovered that the purported “fusion” point in human chromosome 2 is actually part of a functional gene. Quoting Kenneth Miller, an evolutionary biologist from Brown University, Mooney wrote: "But that’s just wrong, according to Miller. The fusion site is “more than 1,300 bases away from the gene,” he says, based on a review of major gene databanks. “These increasingly desperate efforts to ‘debunk’ the chromosome 2 story have failed before, and they’ve failed this time, too,” Miller concludes." Actually Mooney was wrong. When challenged privately, Dr. Miller conceded that the fusion point was only far away from the gene when one excludes results from a genomic database called “refseq.” When refseq is included, a longer gene transcript is found — produced by a section of DNA that includes the fusion site. Miller admitted the mistake to Tomkins: “in this transcript, the fusion site is in the middle of the first [gene] exon as you note.” Somehow Mooney failed to mention that inconvenient fact. Mooney apparently wanted to give the impression that the “fusion site” is useless junk DNA, produced by random evolutionary mutations. The evidence suggests otherwise — it’s an important, functional gene. http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/defenders-of-the-evolutionary-consensus-could-benefit-from-more-fact-checking-2/# Tomkins defended himself from another Darwinist here Jeff Tomkins response (1): I used the complete chimp and gorilla GULO genome sequences as queries against the human GULO region as a target database. This was all done on a local server and the human GULO database was constructed using the makeblastdb tool. I had to use optimized sequence slices to determine the similarity since the transposable element fragment differences, which are very large in this region as previously noted by several evolutionary authors, made the alignments highly discontinuous. In contrast, you did NOT do a one-to-one genomic regional comparison for the gulo region in human to the gulo region in chimpanzee. You also used human GULO as the query sequence and the entire chimp genome as the target database. Therefore, because you used the standard default web server blastn parameters, your alignment was chained across the entire chimp genome – which included partial sequence ‘best’ matches. ============== Jeff Tomkins response (2): No, basically you are wrong and you are merely pushing your evolutionary agenda and fake information in disregard of the scientific evidence. And you are misrepresenting my work with your imaginations. You invited me to download data which I already did and presented in a thorough peer-reviewed paper – and you didn’t like it because it conflicted with your presuppositions. Well, I downloaded the data again for good measure and this time performed a MUSCLE alignment which shows the same thing I reported in my paper. You can access this data here. http://www.designed-dna.org/resources/human-chimp_gulo_muscle_alignment.png
bornagain77
April 24, 2015
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I'd rather be related to slime than a chimp! Who's with me?
And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul.
Mung
April 24, 2015
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Timaeus @29: Whew. For a bit there I thought you were talking about me!Mung
April 24, 2015
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http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/10/2266.full.pdf+html
Mapping Human Genetic Ancestry Ingo Ebersberger,*§k Petra Galgoczy, Stefan Taudien, Simone Taenzer, Matthias Platzer, and Arndt von Haeseler*§k The human genome is a mosaic with respect to its evolutionary history. Based on a phylogenetic analysis of 23,210 DNA sequence alignments from human, chimpanzee, gorilla, orangutan, and rhesus, we present a map of human genetic ancestry. For about 23% of our genome, we share no immediate genetic ancestry with our closest living relative, the chimpanzee. This encompasses genes and exons to the same extent as intergenic regions. We conclude that about 1/3 of our genes started to evolve as human-specific lineages before the differentiation of human, chimps, and gorillas took place. This explains recurrent findings of very old human-specific morphological traits in the fossils record, which predate the recent emergence of the human species about 5-6 MYA. Furthermore, the sorting of such ancestral phenotypic polymorphisms in subsequent speciation events provides a parsimonious explanation why evolutionary derived characteristics are shared among species that are not each other’s closest relatives.?
Jim Smith
April 24, 2015
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The importance of genetic similarities between species is that it tells us, when considered along with the fossil record, how fast DNA changes. When correlated with laboratory experiements (Douglas Axe et al.) and population genetics, population size, generation time, etc, we can begin investigate if natural causes can really explain the rate of genetic change. In order to do this investigation you need objective unbiased data on the genetic differences between species.Jim Smith
April 24, 2015
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News. It's ~99% identity whatever you may prefer to think. Nothing about that fact means genetics isn't important. "Genetics", after all, includes all the genetic sequences that control the timing and location of gene expression too. BA, If you keep reading rubbish like Luskin and Tomkins, you will keep being wrong about this topic. It seems you can't be dissuaded form that, so, one more time I'll repeat myself. The raw data underlying my claim is freely available, please prove me wrong if you can.wd400
April 24, 2015
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Here is another article on the bias of Darwinists in 'filtering data' Contradictory Trees: Evolution Goes 0 For 1,070 - Whif - Cornelius Hunter Excerpt: One of evolution’s trade secrets is its prefiltering of data to make it look good, but now evolutionists are resorting to postfiltering of the data as well.,,, Prefiltering is often thought of merely as cleaning up the data. But prefiltering is more than that, for built-in to the prefiltering steps is the theory of evolution. Prefiltering massages the data to favor the theory. The data are, as philosophers explain, theory-laden. But even prefiltering cannot always help the theory.,,, http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2013/06/contradictory-trees-evolution-goes-0.html Comprehensive Analysis of Chimpanzee and Human Chromosomes Reveals Average DNA Similarity of 70% by Jeffrey Tomkins on February 20, 2013 Excerpt: there is a great deal of preferential and selective treatment of the data being analyzed. In many cases, only the most promising data such as gene-rich sequences that exist in both species (homologs) is utilized from a much larger data pool. This pre-selected data is often further subjected to more filtering before being analyzed and discussed. Non-alignable regions and large gaps in DNA sequence alignments are also typically omitted, thus increasing the levels of reported similarity. https://answersingenesis.org/answers/research-journal/v6/comprehensive-analysis-of-chimpanzee-and-human-chromosomes/ The Myth of 98% Genetic Similarity between Humans and Chimps – Jeffrey Tomkins PhD. – video https://vimeo.com/95287522bornagain77
April 24, 2015
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WD400:
Good. I hope you can convince your fellow-travelers to stop embarrassing themselves on this topic.
I think you should give the same advice to Darwinists such as yourself. The reason that some ID proponents resisted the chimp-human similarity is that you Darwinists love to use it as strong evidence for Darwinian evolution and common descent but not for ID. This is a lie, of course. It is also strong evidence for intelligent design. It's time for you to go back to school and learn a thing or two about intelligent design.Mapou
April 24, 2015
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wd400, states:
98-99% identity is for the whole genome. The idea that it applies only to protein coding genes really is truly a myth. As I keep saying — the raw data is available. If I’m wrong it shouldn’t be hard to show it.
and yet this was posted right before he stated that:
Human lincRNA Regions Vastly Different from Chimpanzee by Jeffrey Tomkins, Ph.D – 2014 Excerpt: My recent research report describes the use of regions of the human genome that correspond to three different human lincRNA datasets and one vlincRNA (very long intergenic non-coding RNA) dataset in an exhaustive comparison to the chimpanzee genome. In summary, the short human lincRNA regions (less than 600 DNA bases in length) were about 75% to 79% similar to chimpanzee, while the larger lincRNA regions (greater than 600 bases) were about 71% to 74% similar. And the human vlincRNA genomic regions were only 67% similar to chimpanzee. To provide a high-similarity contrast for this study, I also compared the protein-coding regions of the human genome, called exons, that were between 300 and 599 bases in length—the ideal size for optimally aligning them to chimpanzee DNA without having to slice them into smaller pieces. In contrast to the lower similarity observed for the lincRNA and vlincRNA regions, all known human protein-coding exons 300 to 599 bases in length were 86% similar to chimpanzee. These data included the fact that over 6% of human protein-coding exons of this size have no similar counterpart in the chimpanzee. http://www.icr.org/article/8227/ Groundbreaking Genetic Discoveries Challenge Ape to Human Evolutionary Theory – June 17, 2013 Excerpt: Dr. Tomkins further emphasized that evolutionists greatly exaggerate the genetic similarities between humans and chimps, and often ignore areas of DNA where major differences do exist. “It’s called cherry-picking the data,” he explained. “There are many genetic regions between humans and chimps that are radically different. In fact, humans have many sections of DNA that are missing in chimps and vice versa. Recent research is now showing that the genomes are only 70% similar overall.”,,, Study Reports a Whopping “23% of Our Genome” Contradicts Standard Human-Ape Evolutionary Phylogeny – Casey Luskin – June 2011 Excerpt: For about 23% of our genome, we share no immediate genetic ancestry with our closest living relative, the chimpanzee. This encompasses genes and exons to the same extent as intergenic regions. We conclude that about 1/3 of our genes started to evolve as human-specific lineages before the differentiation of human, chimps, and gorillas took place. (of note; 1/3 of our genes is equal to about 7000 genes that we do not share with chimpanzees) DNA Comparisons between Humans and Chimps – Fazale Rana Excerpt: It is interesting that when evolutionary biologists discuss genetic comparisons between human and chimpanzee genomes, the fact that, again, as much as 25 percent of the two genomes won’t align receives no mention. Instead, the focus is only on the portions of the genome that display a high-degree of similarity. This distorted emphasis makes the case for the evolutionary connection between humans and chimps seem more compelling than it may actually be. Ten years on, still much to be learned from human genome map – April 12, 2013 Excerpt:,,,”What’s more, about 10 percent of the human genome still hasn’t been sequenced and can’t be sequenced by existing technology, Green added. “There are parts of the genome we didn’t know existed back when the genome was completed,” he said.,,, Recent Genetic Research Shows Chimps More Distant From Humans,,, – Jan. 2010 Excerpt: A Nature paper from January, 2010 titled, “Chimpanzee and human Y chromosomes are remarkably divergent in structure and gene content,” found that Y chromosomes in humans and chimps “differ radically in sequence structure and gene content,” showing “extraordinary divergence” where “wholesale renovation is the paramount theme.”,,, “Even more striking than the gene loss is the rearrangement of large portions of the chromosome. More than 30% of the chimp Y chromosome lacks an alignable counterpart on the human Y chromosome, and vice versa,,,” A False Trichotomy Excerpt: The common chimp (Pan troglodytes) and human Y chromosomes are “horrendously different from each other”, says David Page,,, “It looks like there’s been a dramatic renovation or reinvention of the Y chromosome in the chimpanzee and human lineages.”
Willful blindness at its worse? Tomkins comments on the severe bias of Darwinists here in omitting dissimilar data that does not agree with their preferred conclusion:
Human and Chimp DNA--Nearly Identical? by Jeffrey Tomkins, Ph.D. - 2014 Excerpt: Major research published over the past decade comparing human and chimpanzee DNA was recently reviewed and critiqued.1 In every single publication, researchers only reported on the highly similar DNA sequence data and discarded the rest—apparently because it was too dissimilar. In fact, when the DNA similarities from these studies were recalculated using the omitted data, markedly lower levels—between 81 and 86 percent similarity—were found. Even the well-known chimpanzee genome paper published by evolutionists in 2005 provides a genomic similarity of only about 80 percent when the discarded nonsimilar data are included and only 70 percent when the estimated size of the chimpanzee genome is incorporated.2,3,,, Not counting the Y-chromosome, the results of my comparison showed variability between 66 and 76 percent similarity for the different chimp chromosomes, with an overall genome average of only 70 percent similarity to human chromosomes. In reality, many chromosomal regions are vastly different between chimps and humans, and several areas of the genome that are present in chimps are completely absent in humans—and vice versa. While it is true that there are sections of the chimp genome that are very similar to humans, this is not the complete picture. DNA sequence comparisons that include all the relevant data plainly show that the human and chimp genomes are not nearly identical at all. Instead, they are as distinct as one might expect based on the obvious differences in the resulting anatomies and behavioral capacities. Hypothetical evolutionary processes cannot explain the extremely broad differences between chimp and human DNA when the whole genomes are considered. The similar regions between genomes are easily interpreted as the basic reuse of effective code—a concept very familiar to software engineers.,,, http://www.icr.org/article/7892/
Moreover, the modern synthesis, which wd400 holds to be true, is found to be false (which is another fact that he will refuse to admit):
"Physiology Is Rocking the Foundations of Evolutionary Biology": Another Peer-Reviewed Paper Takes Aim at Neo-Darwinism - Casey Luskin March 31, 2015 Excerpt: Noble doesn't mince words: "It is not only the standard 20th century views of molecular genetics that are in question. Evolutionary theory itself is already in a state of flux (Jablonka & Lamb, 2005; Noble, 2006, 2011; Beurton et al. 2008; Pigliucci & Muller, 2010; Gissis & Jablonka, 2011; Shapiro, 2011). In this article, I will show that all the central assumptions of the Modern Synthesis (often also called Neo-Darwinism) have been disproved." Noble then recounts those assumptions: (1) that "genetic change is random," (2) that "genetic change is gradual," (3) that "following genetic change, natural selection leads to particular gene variants (alleles) increasing in frequency within the population," and (4) that "inheritance of acquired characteristics is impossible." He then cites examples that refute each of those assumptions,,, He then proposes a new and radical model of biology called the "Integrative Synthesis," where genes don't run the show and all parts of an organism -- the genome, the cell, the body plan, everything -- is integrated. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/03/physiology_is_r094821.html Modern Synthesis Of Neo-Darwinism Is False – Denis Noble – video https://vimeo.com/115822429 ,, In the preceding video, Dr Nobel states that around 1900 there was the integration of Mendelian (discrete) inheritance with evolutionary theory, and about the same time Weismann established what was called the Weismann barrier, which is the idea that germ cells and their genetic materials are not in anyway influenced by the organism itself or by the environment. And then about 40 years later, circa 1940, a variety of people, Julian Huxley, R.A. Fisher, J.B.S. Haldane, and Sewell Wright, put things together to call it ‘The Modern Synthesis’. So what exactly is the ‘The Modern Synthesis’? It is sometimes called neo-Darwinism, and it was popularized in the book by Richard Dawkins, ‘The Selfish Gene’ in 1976. It’s main assumptions are, first of all, is that it is a gene centered view of natural selection. The process of evolution can therefore be characterized entirely by what is happening to the genome. It would be a process in which there would be accumulation of random mutations, followed by selection. (Now an important point to make here is that if that process is genuinely random, then there is nothing that physiology, or physiologists, can say about that process. That is a very important point.) The second aspect of neo-Darwinism was the impossibility of acquired characteristics (mis-called “Larmarckism”). And there is a very important distinction in Dawkins’ book ‘The Selfish Gene’ between the replicator, that is the genes, and the vehicle that carries the replicator, that is the organism or phenotype. And of course that idea was not only buttressed and supported by the Weissman barrier idea, but later on by the ‘Central Dogma’ of molecular biology. Then Dr. Nobel pauses to emphasize his point and states “All these rules have been broken!”. Professor Denis Noble is President of the International Union of Physiological Sciences.
Of supplemental note: Here is a recent article by Tomkins which shows that the mechanism of Horizontal Gene Transfer does not even begin to explain the dissimilarity in genomes being found
Another Horizontal Gene Transfer Fairy Tale by Jeffrey P. Tomkins, Ph.D. - April 6, 2015 Excerpt: First, the researchers found unique genes in a variety of fruit flies, worms, primates, and humans that had no clear evolutionary ancestry. In other words, each of these genes is specific to a certain type of creature. Scientists have previously termed these "orphan genes"—a unique type of gene that provides a clear anti-evolutionary enigma I have discussed in previous reports.3,4 Some claim these novel orphan sequences evolved suddenly out of non-coding DNA while others, such as the authors of this new report, claim they were derived from HGT. The major problem with claiming that these alleged HGT genes are imported or "foreign" (i.e., transferred into the genome from some other creature), is that many of them encode important enzymatic proteins and are key parts of the interconnected gene networks and complex biochemical pathways that are essential to the very life of the organism. The researchers stated, "The majority of these genes are concerned with metabolism." Clearly, the genes are not foreign at all, but designed to function as key parts of essential biologically complex systems. Second, the approach to supposedly identifying many of the foreign genes in animals as microbial in origin was not even based on actual complete gene sequence, but depended upon isolated regions of similarity in the proteins they encode. In mammals, genes are quite complex, and on average only about 10% of the entire gene sequence actually codes for protein, the rest contains a large diversity of regulatory sequences that determine how the gene is to function and its various types of products. In contrast, microbial genes are typically much less complex and lack these intricate and intervening regulatory regions found in animal genes. If the researchers had actually compared the genomic DNA, very little similarity would have been discovered—in other words, they didn't do their homework correctly. In fact, they admitted their claim that the gene was foreign—or where it originated from—was purely hypothetical, when they stated that "absolute certainty in the assignment of most HGT is unachievable." Third, no mechanism of HGT for any of the hundreds of alleged "foreign genes" they found was either discovered or even suggested. This is due to the fact that the only cases where such gene transfer occurs in nature typically involves a clear host-parasite relationship. Not only that, but the cells of the germline (those that produce sperm and egg) must be specifically targeted or the introgressed genes (those that were incorporated from one species into the genome of another) will not be inherited. Unfortunately, evolutionary biologists constantly resort to fictional stories cloaked in technical terminology to escape the straightforward conclusion that the genomes of different creatures were purposefully crafted. Because of their unwavering commitment to evolution, all ideas about these cleverly designed and network-integrated gene sequences being engineered by a Creator are not considered—at least not openly. http://www.icr.org/article/another-horizontal-gene-transfer-fairy
bornagain77
April 24, 2015
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If the 99% claim were correct, it would merely mean that genetics does not tell us very much about a life form. Anyone can tell the difference between a chimpanzee and a human being. I don't care one way or the other, but prefer to think - for the present - that genetics is informative, and that the people quoting the lower figures are correct.News
April 24, 2015
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I am not offended to share 50% DNA with bananas. I also respect pickle rights: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3ob5sU0XRukppolish
April 24, 2015
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I’m one ID proponent who is not “offended” by genomic similarity to chimpanzee
Good. I hope you can convince your fellow-travelers to stop embarrassing themselves on this topic.wd400
April 24, 2015
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wd400: I'm one ID proponent who is not "offended" by genomic similarity to chimpanzees. Further, I find the responses of some ID proponents, e.g., that the similarity is not 99%, but only 94%, to be beside the point, which is that the similarity is very large. But why shouldn't it be? Anyone can see by simple observation that chimpanzees are very similar in many ways to human beings, and one would expect that this similarity would be reflected in the genetic material (though of course the genes alone are not the only determinant of an organism's properties). I don't see that the similarities in genomes has anything to do with the question of design in living systems. A sufficiently intelligent designer could employ many common design elements to create different overall results (e.g., as different computers can employ RAM, hard drives,etc. in similar ways), and such a designer could also devise an evolutionary program which was designed to generate new species from old. Thus, both "creationism" (e.g., Ross) and "evolutionism" (e.g., Denton) can be compatible with "design," and ID has no built-in objection to references to chimp/human similarities, or even to speculations about historical relationships between chimps and humans; such relationships in themselves don't threaten inferences of design. I think the deeper objection to discussion of chimp-human comparisons is not at bottom genetic, but ethical or spiritual. The point is that, physical similarities notwithstanding, we are very different in crucial ways from chimpanzees and from all other creatures on the planet. Where Darwinian or other evolutionary theory is employed to blur these differences, or deny their existence, then the ethical or spiritual objections come into play. Silly ideas about giving chimps legal rights are an example of this blurring. From what I'm told, cabbages (or is it bananas?) have 60% of the same genes as humans, so should they have 60% of the legal rights of humans? The arguments on this front are just plain stupid. Legal rights are not apportioned, and should not be apportioned, on the basis of information that can only be obtained with microscopes and complex scientific equipment. Chimpanzees are morally and politically irresponsible creatures, and even their greatest intellectual achievements are accomplished only when they are aided by human teaching and intervention. Chimpanzees *in nature* cannot employ symbolic language, for example; only with long training instigated by humans do they learn to manipulate symbols as humans do. And language in that sense is crucial for the moral/legal/social life typical of human beings. A person who cannot recognize the key macroscopic differences between a chimp and a human is a fool, even if he has a Ph.D. in comparative genomics and is celebrated in academic circles for his obscure technical articles. And it's on the basis of macroscopic differences that legal and political rights are assigned. Of course, this does not mean that we cannot or should not have laws restricting what we do to chimpanzees or other creatures. But to base those laws on a conception of "human rights" designed for fully rational, fully linguistic, fully moral creatures is idiotic. You of course do not torture an animal unnecessarily; but the reason for that is not that the animal has the "inalienable rights" guaranteed by the American constitution. "All men are created equal" does not mean "all creatures with X% or higher genomic similarity to man are created equal." The Founders certainly knew the difference between an ape (back when "ape" was defined properly) and a man, and they had no intention whatsoever of granting constitutional rights to the former.Timaeus
April 24, 2015
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The molecular machinery depicted in this Ted Talk is 100% Chimp and/or Human I presume? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WFCvkkDSfIU The "1%" difference is in the output of the common DNA replicator machine? That is so incredible. How about a Banana? Same machine?ppolish
April 24, 2015
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Ok WD, I accept your apology.ppolish
April 24, 2015
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pp, I don't won't people to be offended, so of course I'm sorry when someone learns a fact about the world that upsets them. No snark there. But, as I say, whether you or anyone else takes offensive to something doesn't make it more or less true.wd400
April 24, 2015
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WD, no reason for you to be sorry. You asked why some people are "put off" and I gave you a reason. Are you truly sorry or were you just being snarky:(ppolish
April 24, 2015
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98-99% identity is for the whole genome. The idea that it applies only to protein coding genes really is truly a myth. As I keep saying -- the raw data is available. If I'm wrong it shouldn't be hard to show it.wd400
April 24, 2015
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Seversky: I agree with Barry above that you have missed the article's point. You seem to be reading too quickly. And that is not surprising. You seem to comment on column after column here, but never stay long on any one column long enough to have a sustained, back-and-forth discussion with anyone, a discussion where points and arguments are exchanged and people on both sides modify their views. Your approach, for the most part, is scattershot. You toss in a drive-by comment, then move on to the next column which catches your interest, toss in another drive-by comment, move on again, etc. Most people who respond to you don't get even a single reply to their responses. It's as if you have what teachers for the past few years have been calling "ADD" -- attention deficit disorder -- and are unable to stay long at any one task, being too easily distracted by background activity in your environment. You would achieve more intellectual growth if you commented on fewer columns here, but engaged at length in those few places with your critics and questioners. Your current approach is unlikely to teach you anything. Certainly it does not teach anyone else here anything. Drive-by shots at the opinions of others, unsustained by argumentation, are worthless to a learning community. Think about it, Seversky. Are you happy to be the village's cranky old man, taking shots at everyone else's position? Or do you wish to participate in the life of the village, by having genuine sustained dialogue with the village's other members? Speaking for myself, at least, I don't feel you've engaged my last four or five objections to your posts, and to me that makes your posts of little to no value. And I am inclined to think that someone who does not respond to reasoned objections to his comments cannot defend those comments; that is the most economical explanation of quick exits when challenges are given.Timaeus
April 24, 2015
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wd400, you, the supposedly educated one, are the one embarrassing yourself against someone who is supposedly uneducated in these matters. Coyne is, IMHO, underestimating the extent that ORFan genes are found,, as the papers I referenced under the Coyne quote make clear. Moreover, I already noted that the protein coding regions only encompass approx. 2% of the genome. Yet you falsely said that I was considering the whole genome in the comparison. Yet, if the entire genome is included, as you accused me of doing in my reference to ORFans, then, as you well know but are apparently too dishonest to admit, the percentage difference between chimps and humans greatly increases from your desired 99% mark which you are falsely claiming is true, apparently, for the entire genome now. If you are not claiming that the entire genome is 99% similar then perhaps you need to rewrite what you wrote so as to not make it appear as if your are claiming 99% similarity for the entire genome?
Human lincRNA Regions Vastly Different from Chimpanzee by Jeffrey Tomkins, Ph.D - 2014 Excerpt: My recent research report describes the use of regions of the human genome that correspond to three different human lincRNA datasets and one vlincRNA (very long intergenic non-coding RNA) dataset in an exhaustive comparison to the chimpanzee genome. In summary, the short human lincRNA regions (less than 600 DNA bases in length) were about 75% to 79% similar to chimpanzee, while the larger lincRNA regions (greater than 600 bases) were about 71% to 74% similar. And the human vlincRNA genomic regions were only 67% similar to chimpanzee. To provide a high-similarity contrast for this study, I also compared the protein-coding regions of the human genome, called exons, that were between 300 and 599 bases in length—the ideal size for optimally aligning them to chimpanzee DNA without having to slice them into smaller pieces. In contrast to the lower similarity observed for the lincRNA and vlincRNA regions, all known human protein-coding exons 300 to 599 bases in length were 86% similar to chimpanzee. These data included the fact that over 6% of human protein-coding exons of this size have no similar counterpart in the chimpanzee. http://www.icr.org/article/8227/ Groundbreaking Genetic Discoveries Challenge Ape to Human Evolutionary Theory – June 17, 2013 Excerpt: Dr. Tomkins further emphasized that evolutionists greatly exaggerate the genetic similarities between humans and chimps, and often ignore areas of DNA where major differences do exist. “It’s called cherry-picking the data,” he explained. “There are many genetic regions between humans and chimps that are radically different. In fact, humans have many sections of DNA that are missing in chimps and vice versa. Recent research is now showing that the genomes are only 70% similar overall.”,,, http://christiannews.net/2013/06/17/groundbreaking-genetic-discoveries-challenge-ape-to-human-evolutionary-theory/ Study Reports a Whopping "23% of Our Genome" Contradicts Standard Human-Ape Evolutionary Phylogeny - Casey Luskin - June 2011 Excerpt: For about 23% of our genome, we share no immediate genetic ancestry with our closest living relative, the chimpanzee. This encompasses genes and exons to the same extent as intergenic regions. We conclude that about 1/3 of our genes started to evolve as human-specific lineages before the differentiation of human, chimps, and gorillas took place. (of note; 1/3 of our genes is equal to about 7000 genes that we do not share with chimpanzees) http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/06/study_reports_a_whopping_23_of047041.html DNA Comparisons between Humans and Chimps - Fazale Rana Excerpt: It is interesting that when evolutionary biologists discuss genetic comparisons between human and chimpanzee genomes, the fact that, again, as much as 25 percent of the two genomes won’t align receives no mention. Instead, the focus is only on the portions of the genome that display a high-degree of similarity. This distorted emphasis makes the case for the evolutionary connection between humans and chimps seem more compelling than it may actually be. http://www.reasons.org/dna-comparisons-between-humans-and-chimps-response-venema-critique-rtb-human-origins-model-part-2 Ten years on, still much to be learned from human genome map - April 12, 2013 Excerpt:,,,"What's more, about 10 percent of the human genome still hasn't been sequenced and can't be sequenced by existing technology, Green added. "There are parts of the genome we didn't know existed back when the genome was completed," he said.,,, http://medicalxpress.com/news/2013-04-ten-years-human-genome.html Recent Genetic Research Shows Chimps More Distant From Humans,,, - Jan. 2010 Excerpt: A Nature paper from January, 2010 titled, "Chimpanzee and human Y chromosomes are remarkably divergent in structure and gene content," found that Y chromosomes in humans and chimps "differ radically in sequence structure and gene content," showing "extraordinary divergence" where "wholesale renovation is the paramount theme.",,, “Even more striking than the gene loss is the rearrangement of large portions of the chromosome. More than 30% of the chimp Y chromosome lacks an alignable counterpart on the human Y chromosome, and vice versa,,," http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/04/recent_genetic_research_shows.html A False Trichotomy Excerpt: The common chimp (Pan troglodytes) and human Y chromosomes are “horrendously different from each other”, says David Page,,, “It looks like there’s been a dramatic renovation or reinvention of the Y chromosome in the chimpanzee and human lineages.” https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/a-false-trichotomy/
bornagain77
April 24, 2015
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PP, I'm sorry you find the fact your DNA is so similar to a chimp's offensive. I'm afraid your taking offense doesn't make it any less true. BA, Coyne is wrong about the extend of orphans in the human genome. But even you take that quote on face value it does not say 6% of the genome is oprhan genes, but 6% of the genes. For 1600 genes to be ~6% of the genes Coyne must be talking about protein coding genes, which make about 2% of the genome. So even taking Coyne's old numbers, we end up with .02 * .06 = .0012 of the genome in orphans. A tenth of a percent, which I think even you will agree is not >5%. You can avoid these embarrassing mistakes if yo bothered to learn a little biology, but I can't imagine yo will.wd400
April 24, 2015
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The Darwinist's lame argument is that the similarity between chimp and human DNA is evidence for Darwinism but not for ID. How lame. I don't see that at all. I see it as a prime example of intelligent reuse in design. Personally, I am delighted to be closely related to apes. Apes are magnificently designed creatures. So are we. But humans are much more advanced than apes because the human brain was designed to interface with the spirit realm. It was designed to serve as a receptacle for a spiritual entity. As Genesis put it, Yahweh framed the spirit of man within him. He did not do the same for apes and other animals.Mapou
April 24, 2015
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as to: "BA and the absurd claim that orphan genes make up more than 5% of the human genome." And yet, as was already referenced, but was ignored by wd400, there is more than 5% ORFan genes in the human genome as even arch-militant atheist Jerry Coyne admits:
“More than 6 percent of genes found in humans simply aren’t found in any form in chimpanzees. There are over fourteen hundred novel genes expressed in humans but not in chimps.” Jerry Coyne – ardent and ‘angry’ neo-Darwinist – professor at the University of Chicago in the department of ecology and evolution for twenty years. He specializes in evolutionary genetics. Finding Protein-Coding Genes through Human Polymorphisms – January 2013 Excerpt: We found 5,737 putative protein-coding genes that do not exist in the reference, whose protein-coding status is supported by homology to known proteins. On average 10% of these genes are located in the genomic regions devoid of annotated genes in 12 other catalogs. Our statistical analysis showed that these ORFs are unlikely to occur by chance. http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0054210 Mechanisms and dynamics of orphan gene emergence in insect genomes – January 2013 Excerpt: Orphans are an enigmatic portion of the genome since their origin and function are mostly unknown and they typically make up 10 to 30% of all genes in a genome. http://gbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2013/01/24/gbe.evt009.full.pdf+html
As to the fact that the 2% of DNA that codes for proteins (i.e. genes) is vastly overrated, well that fact is blatantly obvious. Even if Darwinists could account for the origination of new ORFan protein/genes, (or the transformation of existing protein into a similar protein of a different function), which they can't explain by astronomical margins, the Darwinists still have not gone one inch of a thousand miles towards explaining the regulatory mechanisms that tell those proteins where, when, and how, to be used in an organism. Talbott puts this vast void in Darwinian explanations for 'form', (i.e. body plans), like this:
HOW BIOLOGISTS LOST SIGHT OF THE MEANING OF LIFE — AND ARE NOW STARING IT IN THE FACE - Stephen L. Talbott - May 2012 Excerpt: “If you think air traffic controllers have a tough job guiding planes into major airports or across a crowded continental airspace, consider the challenge facing a human cell trying to position its proteins”. A given cell, he notes, may make more than 10,000 different proteins, and typically contains more than a billion protein molecules at any one time. “Somehow a cell must get all its proteins to their correct destinations — and equally important, keep these molecules out of the wrong places”. And further: “It’s almost as if every mRNA [an intermediate between a gene and a corresponding protein] coming out of the nucleus knows where it’s going” (Travis 2011),,, Further, the billion protein molecules in a cell are virtually all capable of interacting with each other to one degree or another; they are subject to getting misfolded or “all balled up with one another”; they are critically modified through the attachment or detachment of molecular subunits, often in rapid order and with immediate implications for changing function; they can wind up inside large-capacity “transport vehicles” headed in any number of directions; they can be sidetracked by diverse processes of degradation and recycling... and so on without end. Yet the coherence of the whole is maintained. The question is indeed, then, “How does the organism meaningfully dispose of all its molecules, getting them to the right places and into the right interactions?” The same sort of question can be asked of cells, for example in the growing embryo, where literal streams of cells are flowing to their appointed places, differentiating themselves into different types as they go, and adjusting themselves to all sorts of unpredictable perturbations — even to the degree of responding appropriately when a lab technician excises a clump of them from one location in a young embryo and puts them in another, where they may proceed to adapt themselves in an entirely different and proper way to the new environment. It is hard to quibble with the immediate impression that form (which is more idea-like than thing-like) is primary, and the material particulars subsidiary. Two systems biologists, one from the Max Delbrück Center for Molecular Medicine in Germany and one from Harvard Medical School, frame one part of the problem this way: "The human body is formed by trillions of individual cells. These cells work together with remarkable precision, first forming an adult organism out of a single fertilized egg, and then keeping the organism alive and functional for decades. To achieve this precision, one would assume that each individual cell reacts in a reliable, reproducible way to a given input, faithfully executing the required task. However, a growing number of studies investigating cellular processes on the level of single cells revealed large heterogeneity even among genetically identical cells of the same cell type. (Loewer and Lahav 2011)",,, And then we hear that all this meaningful activity is, somehow, meaningless or a product of meaninglessness. This, I believe, is the real issue troubling the majority of the American populace when they are asked about their belief in evolution. They see one thing and then are told, more or less directly, that they are really seeing its denial. Yet no one has ever explained to them how you get meaning from meaninglessness — a difficult enough task once you realize that we cannot articulate any knowledge of the world at all except in the language of meaning.,,, http://www.netfuture.org/2012/May1012_184.html#2
bornagain77
April 24, 2015
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"Why do you think people are so put out by sharing such similar DNA to chimps?" Because being called similiar to a Chimp is an insult? Same thing with Pig. PigChimp is kind of fun though. Look, if DNA can't explain the differences between Chimp & Man, why should it be assumed to show similarity? Irrational and illogical. Same with Universal Common Descent. Universal lol.ppolish
April 24, 2015
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