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The Woeful State of Modern Debate

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In debate after debate I’m sure we’ve all noticed that some people continually recycle the same statements over and over as if those statements represent something more than emotion-laden rhetoric that hasn’t already been factually and logically refuted or otherwise sufficiently responded to.  While this is hardly surprising, what has piqued my interest are discussions involving the election of Donald J. Trump and abortion, I suppose because those subjects carry a great deal of emotional weight for many people. I think the reaction to these subjects reveals something extremely interesting and dangerous to society.

I’m not just talking about atheists/materialists here, but people in general. In every single discussion I had with anyone not supporting Trump, their reaction to Trump was not one of cool political discourse, but of outright hate.  They hated Trump.  However, not a single one of them could give me even a single policy position of the candidate.  Not a single one of them could tell me anything whatsoever about his history other than that he was a rich businessman and star of The Apprentice.  None of them had ever even watched a single, whole Trump rally video. Having a discussion with them brought out all the negative characterizations of Trump you find/found everywhere in various media outlets, including comments about his “orange” skin and  comb-over hair.

Similarly, when having a “debate” about abortion, the same emotion-laden polemic is used over and over.  Recently, on this blog, some commenters offer supposed “righteous indignation” about how pro-life advocates act (or rather, in their eyes, refuse to act appropriately) in response to what they refer to as a “holocaust” – the mass-murder of the unborn.  Others react with emotional, “shaming” and “virtue-signalling” talking points about “reproductive rights” and “patriarchical oppression”. Ignoring the scientific fact that human life is known to begin at conception, they talk about other points of the growth of a human from conception that they personally feel would be better marks for granting human right protections – like where they think the fetus might be self-aware, or feel pain, or upon birth.  While birth, unlike the other points, is not a vague marker, it suffers from other, logical problems as far as being the best marker fo application of human rights, rendering it simply an arbitrary point after conception with respect to application of human rights.

Now, what do these rhetorical responses and positions have in common? They are all based on subjective feelings and arbitrary points of factual reference that support those arbitrary feelings. In other words, it is the personal, subjective feeling that grounds many views, not relevant facts, grounded principles and logical examination.

For example, attacks on Trump and protests against him are not based upon substantive principles, relevant facts and logical examination; if they were, one would realize that unless they have known a person for many years, they are not likely to have a good understanding of that person’s character or views. Certainly, there is no logical or principled basis for taking a few minutes of snippets of what anyone says – especially in private in certain situations – and using those snippets to form a supposedly valid opinion of a person’s entire history or character.  Also, ignoring the relevant facts – the actual entire history of that person in word and deed, and their official statements and policy points unfiltered by perhaps biased interpretation – is at best an unconscious effort to protect one’s negative feelings about that person.

In our other example, some here have made the claim that making abortion illegal might not, in the long term, reduce the number of abortions. If we assume it is a fact (and it is hardly that), it is an irrelevant one with respect to the arguments actually being made about abortion – that accepting and promoting the killing of innocent human life is corrosive to a decent culture based on unalienable human rights.  Pointing out that they themselves would act violently to stop the killing of an innocent and so pro-lifers cannot actually consider abortion the killing of an innocent because they are not reacting violently is nothing more than emotional, self-righteous rhetoric and a false comparison.

There is a principle involved here: that all humans have unalienable rights.  Defenders of abortion make the claim that there are some situations where humans should not have such rights.  This reasoning necessarily opens the door to the subjective view that this group of humans or that group of humans are not protected by human rights.  One might say that a human without apparent self-awareness doesn’t deserve that right; but what is the “self-awareness” marker other than an arbitrarily-assigned category?  Post-birth humans – another arbitrarily assigned category.  How about the comatose?  Severely autistic?  Deformed? One can make the case that if you are missing a limb, then you aren’t “fully” human. Who gets to define what is “human” enough to be deserving of human rights?  Whatever government is in power? Whatever the majority decides?

If we go down that path of reasoning, then the holocaust is – according to that line of reasoning – no different than abortion; government and society defining a category of human life as “not human enough to deserve the basic protection of their right to life” and thus creating the legal and moral freedom to exterminate that class of human life.  Moral subjectivism only exacerbates the hypocrisy of the abortionist argument; if it is society that decides what is and is not human life, then abortion is exactly like the holocaust.

This post-modernist moral relativism renders all “social justice” positions inherently absurd and hypocritical; if I can identify as anything and expect acceptance and tolerance for my position, how then does one justify spewing hate and intolerance for those who self-identify even as racists, misogynists and homophobes? If they can hate Trump, I can hate Clinton.  If they can hate patriarchy, I can hate equality. If they can hate homophobes, then by post-modernist moral subjectivism I am certainly entitled to hate homosexuals.

If there are no fundamental principles or relevant facts from we all agree to submit to and from which we agree to draw rational conclusions, all one is left with is the whim of subjective feelings and arbitrarily organized references to support those feelings.  What that ends up looking like is reliance upon rhetoric, invective, intimidation and, ultimately, violence.  It also ends up looking like what we have on this site – a plethora of people utterly incapable of making a rational argument based upon logical inference derived from principle and relevant fact, ending up in self-conflicting absurdities and hypocrisies.

I’m at a loss at how to begin debating those who have absolutely no understanding of critical reasoning; it’s not like you can educate them in such skill during the debate; they have no idea what you are objecting to.  They don’t comprehend arguments based on principle.  They think any fact that feels like it supports their view actually helps their argument or actually rebuts the other person’s.  They think a comparison of feelings  and hypothetical personal reactions is a valid argument.  They think mockery and personal insult is a valid form of debate.  They think shaming and virtue-signalling is the be-all and end-all of public discourse.  They think some ideas should not be discussed and actually think free speech is “hate” speech.  IOW, as soon as you argue for Trump, or against abortion, you are automatically beyond the realm of civil discourse and the only appropriate response is shaming and ridiculing.

It’s bizarre.  At times, the responses are so orthogonal to rational debate that it requires a massive effort just to explain how their point is entirely irrelevant, but doing so makes no difference because their position is entirely rooted in subjective feelings and arbitrary associations.

Armand Jacks and RVB8 don’t even understand that they have just shown, by their own reasoning, under their own worldview, and according to their own subjective, post-conception, arbitrary ideas about the application of human rights, that the Holocaust and abortion are morally, ethically and legally the same exact thing, even while insisting (because of their feelings) that they are not. This is the woeful state of modern debate.

Comments
RVB8, AJ & Pindi, You keep saying that abortion should be a last resort. Why should abortion be the last resort"?William J Murray
March 22, 2017
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Serversky said:
But history teaches us that simply criminalizing abortion is unlikely to stop it happening. Rather, it will simply drive it underground again with known consequences.
I appreciate your measured and thoughtful contribution from a perspective that is IMO, poorly represented here. I applaud your recognition that human life begins at conception. However, surely you recognize the problem with the above statement and the logic that extends from it. Criminalizing anything doesn't stop that thing from happening. Criminalization serves two purposes; first, to establish a formal social and cultural rule that establishes a common value based upon a shared principle. In this case, first and foremost, that the right to human life is our most fundamental right. All other rights are meaningless without that right. Second, to show our commitment to those values and principles as a society, violators of those laws are punished. Third, such punishments - inasmuch as they can - serve as a deterrent. To claim that punishments for one activity can serve as a deterrent but that punishment for another activity does not serve as a deterrent is, on the face of it, a faulty position.
The better solution is, I believe, twofold.
The question is, solution to what problem? If increasing education and contraceptive availability reduces the number of abortions, that does absolutely nothing to solve the problem that I, KF and others here are primarily concerned about - a culture that accepts the treatment some humans as a commodity that can be disposed of for the sake of convenience. I applaud your effort to actually address this point when you say:
Second and more difficult, there should be some sort of campaign to persuade all potential parents – there’s no reason why the whole burden and the opprobium should fall only on the woman – indeed, the whole of society that the little cluster of dividing cells in the womb is not the same as a benign tumor. It is not just a growth that will do nothing but become a bigger growth to be excised surgically and tossed in an incinerator. Given the right support it will become another human being like you and me. Why shouldn’t it have the same opportunity as you and I had?
There's nothing wrong with that proposal. It sounds to me like a great public awareness campaign to help correct the cultural narrative and strengthen a pro-life social contract. You left out, however, a logically necessary component: a law that punishes those that engage in the activity we are seeking to discourage. Let's look at another social ill and follow your logic. We have many local and nationwide social media campaigns that attempt to (1) educate people about drunk driving, (2) establish a narrative that it is not socially acceptable, (3) show the dire consequences of drunk driving, (4) provide assistance to those who need a ride if they are inebriated. Should we also not punish those who still insist on drunk driving? Following your logic, there are all sorts of crimes that should be removed from the books and replaced with public awareness and prevention campaigns. There would be no reason for homicide or theft laws - just awareness and prevention campaigns. This is why I suggested that along with criminalizing most abortions, there should also be laws that (1) protect the woman's job through birth and recovery, and (2) eliminate any financial hardship of a pregnancy that is going to end up with the child being adopted. I also agree that pregnancies with risks above a certain threshold or are the result of rape should be considered a "self-defense" exemption under an extended "self-defense" law. This would, within reason, protect the life of the woman and greatly mitigate the inconvenience of carrying the pregnancy to birth, giving them every opportunity and reason to comply with the law instead of seeking an illegal abortion. As I also said above, I would be in favor of a first-time offense of loss of reproductive rights for the woman and loss of medical license for the abortion performer and probation, with even stiffer penalties for non-licensed abortion providers. None of this is egregious and the pro-life laws and services I outlined help establish a cultural appreciation for life and a compact with society that we hold life as our most precious right which is to be protected as much as possible. However, without making abortion a criminal offense, we are just not taking the matter seriously. Do you not see the logic here? Are you seriously saying that while we should have laws against drunk driving (primarily because a drunk driver **might** harm or kill people), but not have a law against actually killing an innocent human life?William J Murray
March 22, 2017
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F/N: Folks, ask yourself why Wilberforce did not seek indictments against slave traders on charges of murder (where the slave trade was associated with a holocaust level death toll and was based on kidnapping). Then compare how those who have popped up to play objector rhetorical games have responded to this key exemplar of a modern reformation movement. Then see their reaction to the suggestion that at some point our civilisation has to come together to face the truth together regarding the 800+ millions aborted since the 1970's, in a truth and reconciliation commission -- explicitly not a new Nuremberg Trial. This pattern should tell us a lot about what is going on with issues and with debates. KFkairosfocus
March 22, 2017
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AJ,RVB8,Pindi. I asked for evidence ,I got opinion.Marfin
March 22, 2017
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F/N: On long, saddening experience, the typical Darwinist and fellow traveller debate pattern online is the trifecta of fallacies, as we can see above. First distractive red herrings led away from the track of inconvenient truth, here, cf. WJM's focus in the OP. The red herring is dragged away to a forest of strawmen duly set up and soaked in ad hominems. Then, incendiary rhetoric is used to set them alight, clouding, confusing, polarising and poisoning the atmosphere. Thus, frustrating serious and sober discussion. The above has now reached the third stage, with attempts to set up stereotypical, strawman caricature Christians as scapegoats. Thanks for revealing your underlying bigotry-driven hate -- it has long passed mere hostility and suspicion -- as to be forewarned is to be forearmed. KFkairosfocus
March 21, 2017
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I believe that the right to life should be extended to cover the whole lifespan of a human being. Not any other rights, mind, just the right to life. I assume that everyone participating in this discussion is human - or some reasonable facsimile thereof. That being the case, every one of us was, at some point, a blastocyst or embryo or fetus. No, we weren't, at that time, fully developed adults, but were we any the less human? The right to life is, first and foremost, a human right. All you need to be to qualify for that right is to be human. It follows, therefore, that if pro-lifers want to establish the whole-of-life right to life, they need to have the law changed and that means persuading enough people that this should happen. But history teaches us that simply criminalizing abortion is unlikely to stop it happening. Rather, it will simply drive it underground again with known consequences. The better solution is, I believe, twofold. First, as AJ and others have argued, there should be better and more comprehensive sex education and much wider availability of contraceptive measures. Second and more difficult, there should be some sort of campaign to persuade all potential parents - there's no reason why the whole burden and the opprobium should fall only on the woman - indeed, the whole of society that the little cluster of dividing cells in the womb is not the same as a benign tumor. It is not just a growth that will do nothing but become a bigger growth to be excised surgically and tossed in an incinerator. Given the right support it will become another human being like you and me. Why shouldn't it have the same opportunity as you and I had?Seversky
March 21, 2017
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Misquoting, reinterpreting, quote mining, welcome to Christian/ID debate. Also tarring with the same brush, dilution of the facts, and deliberate false reading. asauber, "we have devoted abortion advocates/trolls stringing out this thread, and then denying they are devoted to their pro-abortion position." I'm not denying I am pro-abortion, I most certainly am, if the women in question requests it. The first three months is the ideal time, but late term abortion for the right reasons, (fetus viability, mother's health), are also ok with me, and my government, and my country's electorate. You see, in your very deceptive Christian way you are attempting to make me ashamed of my position, I'm not! Women must, and do have this right, and I will defend this right openly and clearly, and unlike you, calmly. Like Pindi, and AJ, I also believe abortion should be the last option, and that it is better for the woman to have the child. She should have zero pressure in this personal decision, and certainly no input from any religious advisers. The doctor, and the mother decide. Now that is what I believe, and thankfully a sane polity agrees with me. You believe the fetus is a human being, and abortion is murder. However, there is no rationality to your position as you refuse to treat the women as a murderer; a well planned, intended murder, with a clear victim. Now, if anything I have said is unclear I can only surmise you are being deliberately dense.rvb8
March 21, 2017
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Andrew:
It’s all in the comments, dude.
Can you show me the comment where I said I was devote to abortion. Or was pro-abortion. Or where I said that abortion was a good thing. I have been very clear on this point. I want to significantly reduce the number of abortions. I just don't think that jailing women is the way to go about it. History and examples from other countries support my arguments.Armand Jacks
March 21, 2017
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Pindi, It's all in the comments, dude. Andrewasauber
March 21, 2017
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Not only a troll, but a mind reader.Pindi
March 21, 2017
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Andrew, way to miss the point.
I don't think I missed the point. The point is, we have devoted abortion advocates/trolls stringing out this thread, and then denying they are devoted to their pro-abortion position. Andrewasauber
March 21, 2017
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Andrew:
Your worldview is admittedly subjective, so I’m not sure you can use this as an objection.
I think my objection would apply even if morality was objective. Superior and inferior require a comparison against each other with respect to a stated goal. For example, is making abortion illegal superior to comprehensive and early sex education, unrestricted access to contraceptives and support for women who want to take an unwanted pregnancy to term? Without specifying the goals, there is no way to measure it. If the goal is to eliminate abortion, then neither is superior or inferior as nether will ever meet the specified goal. But if the goal is to reduce/minimize abortion rates then objective measures could be brought to bear (bare?). But is minimizing abortion the only goal? What about the impact of both scenarios on women. There should be some goal established for this as well if we are going to say whether one is superior to the other. And it is possible that one is superior to the other for one goal, and inferior for the other.
So, you have carved out a hypothetical safe space for abortion procedures that you don’t intend to relinquish. That’s devotion.
No, that's accepting reality. If you can convince me that making abortion in the first trimester illegal will prevent abortion, or even significantly reduce it, I would be willing to listen. But history suggests that this is not the case.Armand Jacks
March 21, 2017
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Andrew, way to miss the point. Probably deliberate. Which makes you the troll.Pindi
March 21, 2017
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I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a mullet haircut if that’s what a person desires.
So, do you have a hypothetical safe space for mullet haircuts where people who get/give them won't be criminalized? Do you troll the internet telling people your position? Do you hold your position with great loyalty? Andrewasauber
March 21, 2017
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asauber @98: I don't think there's anything wrong with a mullet haircut if that's what a person desires. Does that mean I am "devoted" to mullet haircuts? Your logic is wrong.Pindi
March 21, 2017
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Superior and inferior are subjective terms
BTW Armand, Your worldview is admittedly subjective, so I'm not sure you can use this as an objection. Andrewasauber
March 21, 2017
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making abortions when they are performed as safe as possible for the woman without giving her a criminal record
So, you have carved out a hypothetical safe space for abortion procedures that you don't intend to relinquish. That's devotion. Andrewasauber
March 21, 2017
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Andrew:
I have read your comments and from them I do see that you are devoted to abortion.
Then you have a serious reading comprehension problem. I am not pro-abortion, I am anti-criminalization of first trimester abortions, for reasons I have repeatedly explained. Your logic suggests that because I do not favour making the consumption of cigarettes and alcolohol illegal that I must advocate for their use.
It’s apparent that you operate from the position that there is nothing wrong with abortions if that’s what a person desires (Marfin’s point), rather than that there is something wrong with them to begin with.
I think that it is "wrong" to perform abortions after the first trimester except in circumstances where the woman's heart is at serious risk. In the first trimester, I would prefer that women did not opt for abortion but I don't think that a woman should be jailed and have a criminal record if she opts to have one. In the first trimester the fetus is not self-aware, is not conscious and cannot perceive pain.
The question remains as to why you picked abortion to be devoted to, and trolling on the internet on behalf of, rather than say, adoption, for example.
Again, I am not devoted to abortion. Whether or not you believe me is your concern, not mine. If you think what I am doing is trolling, then you have a strange definition of trolling. I have been respectful and presented arguments for my positions. And if you read all of my comments you will note that I have proposed an approach that I think will result in fewer abortions than criminalizing it will, and has the benefit of making abortions when they are performed as safe as possible for the woman without giving her a criminal record. Enhanced support for woman who are willing to carry to term and place the child up for adoption is included in my suggested approach.Armand Jacks
March 21, 2017
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If you have actually read my comments rather than simply react to them you will note that I am not devoted to abortion.
I have read your comments and from them I do see that you are devoted to abortion. It's apparent that you operate from the position that there is nothing wrong with abortions if that's what a person desires (Marfin's point), rather than that there is something wrong with them to begin with. The question remains as to why you picked abortion to be devoted to, and trolling on the internet on behalf of, rather than say, adoption, for example. Andrewasauber
March 21, 2017
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Andrew and Marfin:
So what Armand is saying is that his position is in no way demonstrable that it’s any way superior to anyone else’s.
Superior and inferior are subjective terms and can only be measured agains some defined set of goals. With regard to abortion, my goal would be to significantly reduce the incidents of unwanted pregnancies and, therefore, abortions. And at the same time not criminalize women who find themselves with an unwanted pregnancy and opt to terminate it. In that respect, my approach is superior to those suggested by KF and WM.
Why he’s devoted to abortion in particular, though, remains a mystery because, according to him, there’s no way for him to demonstrate it’s a superior position, at all.
If you have actually read my comments rather than simply react to them you will note that I am not devoted to abortion. In fact, I would prefer that no woman saw the need to have one. The only way to effectively do this is to minimize the rate of unwanted pregnancies.
...your position is based on what you feel on any given day,...
Not even close. But if putting words in my mouth is the only way you can defend your position, I guess you should stick with your strengths.Armand Jacks
March 21, 2017
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AJ - Asauber has made my point for me, your position is based on what you feel on any given day,and everyone else on that basis is entitled to do the same , your policy is not to do unto others as you would have them do unto you , but do unto others what ever feels right to you according to how you feel , hence the mess the world is in.Marfin
March 21, 2017
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So what Armand is saying is that his position is in no way demonstrable that it's any way superior to anyone else's. Why he's devoted to abortion in particular, though, remains a mystery because, according to him, there's no way for him to demonstrate it's a superior position, at all. Andrewasauber
March 21, 2017
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Marfin:
AJ – Once again how does A J know there is no objective right or wrong, if I disagree with you what scientific test will you point me to, to show me the error of my ways.
I don't. But until I see any evidence of it, I will stick with the easiest explanation.
Society in Ireland decided that gay marriage is right, it also has decided that abortion is wrong, so is society in Ireland right on these two counts.
I agree with their view on same sex marriage and disagree with their view on abortion. In some countries same sex marriage is not allowed but abortion is, others allow both and some don't allow either. If you can find any objective right or wrong in this dog's breakfast, you are a better man/woman than I.Armand Jacks
March 21, 2017
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AJ, all you are doing is repeating the already falsified claim of subjectivism. The subjectivism, as outlined above and linked in more details elsewhere, is tantamount to morality being grand delusion, and so this lets grand delusion loose in the conscious mind. We dare not dismiss the general reality of our being under moral government, on pain of absurdity. But this, you will not acknowledge as it is fatal to your worldview; so you resort to selective hyperskepticism to cling to absurdity. KFkairosfocus
March 21, 2017
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KF:
TA, you have wrenched what WJM has said: a child in the womb is a human being with his or her own right to life, which needs to be taken very seriously on pain of the sort of havoc we see all around.
Then why are you opposed to charging women who have abortions with first degree murder? Your argument is not consistent. If the fetus has the same right to life as a baby and a senior, anyone who plans ahead to end that life, and carries through with this plan, is guilty of premeditated murder. The only exceptions to this that I am aware of are legally sanctioned executions and war. An abortion is neither of these. It can't even fall under the more recent laws of doctor assisted suicide because these require the prior approval of a patient with sound mind. You keep dancing around this inconsistency but have never addressed it.
Men are also the fathers of our in-utero posterity [doesn’t s/he look just like daddy?], and I think we should all be very concerned about alienating men from their children while putting the state in a substitute parental role.
I am aware of at least one country that requires the father's approval before an abortion can take place. The same country does not allow a woman to walk around unaccompanied or drive a car.Armand Jacks
March 21, 2017
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CR, simply false. I pointed out how the logic of being and non-being points to the need for a root-level reality of adequate causal capability to account for a world, the issue is which candidate accounts for a world in which moral government is real. KFkairosfocus
March 21, 2017
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KF:
See if you find above a cogent response on the substantial merits, and if not, ask yourself if that does not tend to underscore the point from the OP on.
All of your points only highlight the subjective nature of morality. You are quick to reference history to make your points but you ignore history when examining the idea of morality and the so-called IS OUGHT gap. Your argument presupposes the existence of an IS (your god). But if you examine what the implications and consequences are of an IS not existing, you would see something very similar to what we see around the world today and what we see throughout history. Your entire argument is based on the fact that you don't like the idea because it can be manipulated by power and by force. I don't like it either. But sticking your head in the sand does not change the conclusion that the world is exactly what we would expect if there was no IS.
PS: I am in part highlighting that many are acting in a delusional state, not fully realising what they are doing with their enabling of or involvement with abortions, and the very involvement and enabling lead to benumbing the conscience, which undercuts our ability to think straight.
You are mistaken. We fully realize what we are doing. We are protecting the rights of women to make informed decisions about their bodies during a time when the affected life (fetus) is not self aware, not conscious, cannot perceive pain, and could not survive outside the womb. Nobody likes abortion but you will never get rid of it by legal means. Different jurisdictions have different laws around abortion. Some allow it on demand up until a certain stage of pregnancy. And others, like Canada, have absolutely no legal restriction on abortion at all; it is legal to conduct an abortion up until the baby takes its first breath. In spite of this huge variation in restrictions, very few abortions are conducted after the first trimester, and this is usually due to serious health concerns for the mother or the fetus So, even with no restrictions, people and the doctors profession self govern when abortions can be done. Personally, I would prefer some legal framework around abortion, but evidence shows that it is not absolutely necessary.
But eventually, patient exposure of the truth will tell, which is exactly why this is being ridiculed, distorted and dismissed, denigrating those who refuse to play the part of clinic bombers.
Nobody is ridiculing anyone. Well, myself rvb8, CR and Pindi are frequently ridiculed, but we wear big boy pants. We have simply pointed out the inconsistency between what many pro-life proponents use as arguments against abortion and what they are prepared to do about it. You call abortion murder and a holocaust but refuse to treat the women who have abortions as we do all other murderers and people who take an active part in a holocaust. AndArmand Jacks
March 21, 2017
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AJ - Once again how does A J know there is no objective right or wrong, if I disagree with you what scientific test will you point me to, to show me the error of my ways. If you are right and there is no objective right or wrong then this discussion is a complete waste of time as it just comes down to feelings, emotions, and these thing can change like the weather. Society in Ireland decided that gay marriage is right, it also has decided that abortion is wrong, so is society in Ireland right on these two counts.Marfin
March 21, 2017
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Marfin:
To rvb8, AJ,Pindi.How do you guy know if abortion is right or wrong, good or evil , is there some scientific test you did or read about which explains why it is right or wrong.
Since there is no objective right or wrong, this question is not relevant. Whether it is subjectively right or wrong is something that society decides. Right now, it does not consider it to be wrong, at least at the early stages of pregnancy.
If you say what is in the womb is not yet a person the same question apply`s what test in science says what a person is who devised this test, is this test absolute in its findings.
Nothing in science is absolute.Armand Jacks
March 21, 2017
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And to continue Marfin's thought- How did these pro-aborts arrive at the hysterical devotion to a procedure that is clearly violent and destructive to a little being? Where and how does one derive the morality that compels this devotion? Maybe one of them will share their journey to that dark place with us. Andrewasauber
March 21, 2017
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