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Theistic Evolutionists, Your Position Is Incoherent — But We Can Help You!

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In this, my first column for Uncommon Descent, I’d like to address what seems to be a fundamental contradiction running through the writings of many “theistic evolutionists,” and propose an adjustment to their theoretical framework.
 
Critics of theistic evolution (TE) have often suggested that theistic evolutionists (TEs) have to put themselves through mental contortions in order to remain Christian while embracing Darwin.  Yet a person very well versed in TE literature has informed me that many TEs do not appear to feel any such intellectual discomfort.  They reconcile Christianity and Darwin, he suggests, by holding to an “old earth creationist” position, by interpreting Genesis non-literally, and by treating evolution as God’s “creation tool.” 
 
The first two points are non-controversial.  There is plenty of room within orthodox Christianity for the belief that the earth is very old, and for less-than-completely-literal interpretations of Genesis.  However, the proposition that evolution could be “God’s creation tool” is open to more than one interpretation, and bears closer examination.  Given that most TEs appear to be strict Darwinists with respect to the mechanism of evolution (i.e., chance mutations plus natural selection), critical observers are justified in inquiring about the suitability of the Darwinian mechanism as a “creation tool” for a specifically Christian God.

I would not have a problem understanding evolution as God’s “creation tool,” if TEs conceived of evolution as a “tool” in the strict sense.  A tool in the strict sense is fully in the control of the tool-user, and the results it achieves (when properly used by a competent user) are not due to chance but to intelligence and skill.  But Darwin’s mechanism leaves room for neither intelligence nor skill; it is the unconscious operation of impersonal natural selection upon mutations which are the products of chance.  It follows that Darwinian evolution is not a tool, but an autonomous process, and therefore out of God’s control.
 
This has a theological consequence.  If evolution is out of God’s control, it is incompatible with the notion of providence — the notion that God provides for the future needs of the earth and its inhabitants.  God can hardly, for example, provide for the need of Hagar in the desert, if he can’t even guarantee that the human race, of which Hagar is a member, will ever emerge from the primordial seas.  (The radical contingency of the Darwinian mechanism is captured well by Darwinist Stephen Jay Gould, when he wrote that if the tape of evolution were rewound and played again, the results would be entirely different.  Once God sets a truly Darwinian process in motion, he has no control over whether it will produce Adam and Eve, a race of pointy-eared Vulcans, or just an ocean full of bacteria.)
 
A non-providential God is clearly not an orthodox Christian God, and it therefore appears that theistic evolutionism generates heretical Christianity.  As I see it, the only way for theistic evolutionists to escape this consequence is to argue that mutations seem like chance events from the human perspective, but from God’s perspective are foreordained.  But in that case, “evolution” is really just the actualization of a foreseen design over a very long time frame; the “purely natural causes” spoken of by the TEs are really just the unrecognized fingertips of the very long arm of God.  This view, which we might call “apparent Darwinism,” fails to get God out of the process of natural causation, which was (as Cornelius Hunter has argued) Darwinism’s historical raison d’être.
 
In response to this, TEs could say:  “Well, we are Christians, so of course we believe that these apparently chance events were divinely foreordained and therefore are not ultimately chance events.  Our goal is not to deny the ultimate agency of God, but only to establish that the design of living things, though certainly in the mind of God at the beginning of the world’s creation, is not humanly DETECTABLE, as the ID proponents say it is.  Evolution proceeds as if directed by chance; neither our sense nor our instruments are capable of registering the difference between mutations produced by the hidden hand of God and mutations produced by chance.  Operationally, science must proceed as if chance alone is at work.  There is therefore no legitimately scientific design inference.  Design is a theological interpretation of the natural data, not a scientific one.  And that is why we remain theistic evolutionists, appealing to strictly Darwinian causation in our science and keeping our theological interpretation of nature out of the labs, schools and universities.”
 
This has surface plausibility.  But note that, if this argument is accepted, there is no longer any metaphysical difference between TE and ID.  Given this argument, both ID and TE acknowledge that living creatures are in fact designed by God and brought into being exactly in accord with God’s will.  The difference that remains between TE and ID is not over metaphysics but over epistemology, i.e., over the question:  How do we KNOW that the flagellum or the wing of a bird or the circulatory system is a consequence of design rather than chance?  And here is where TE takes its final stand:  it is only by faith, not by the scientific study of nature, that we can know this.
 
But how does TE verify this doctrine?  Surely the question whether design detection can be an empirical science is itself subject to empirical investigation, and cannot be prematurely settled by any dogmatic pronouncement.  TE is thus obliged to look at the work of those who claim that design detection can be an empirical science, and to consider that claim on its merits, not dismiss it out of hand.  It thus must engage the arguments of Dembski, Behe, etc.  TE is of course free to argue that Dembski and Behe and the others fail to provide an adequate basis for a science of design detection, by pointing to real or alleged flaws in their arguments.  But this still means that TE must abandon a priori epistemological declarations and enter whole-heartedly into the honest consideration of whether design in nature is detectable by scientific means.
 
Thus, we see that the foundational contradiction at the very core of TE (that orthodox Christianity is 100% true, and that the Darwinian mechanism is also 100% true), puts TEs on the horns of a dilemma.  Accept the complete truth of the Darwinian mechanism, and one must deny at least one key Christian doctrine, i.e., providence.  Alternately, accept the complete truth of all the core Christian doctrines, including providence, and “chance” is a fiction, Darwinism is a guided process, there is design, and design may in principle be detectable.  TEs thus have a choice.  If their priority, their most important motivation, is to ban the notion of design from science, they can do so, by affirming that chance rather than providence is ultimately real; the cost is the adoption of a non-Christian theology.  If, on the other hand, their priority is to account for the origin of species and of man within the framework of providence, they must affirm that chance is not ultimately real; the cost is the abandonment of the Darwinian mechanism.   
 
Let me summarize.  It is possible to be a theistic evolutionist without contradiction.  It is possible to be a specifically Christian theistic evolutionist without contradiction.  It is not, however, possible to be a Christian DARWINIST without contradiction.  A Christian Darwinist is bound to maintain logically incompatible positions:  that evolution is both a tool and an autonomous process, that providence and chance are both ultimately real, that design is potentially detectable and that it is a priori indetectable.  This intellectual schizophrenia cannot be maintained.  TEs must decide whether or not their grudge against ID and its proponents is more important to them than the maintenance of a consistently orthodox Christian theology. 
 
TEs, you can join us at no real cost.  You can keep your Christian faith (which incidentally is more highly respected by even non-Christian ID advocates than it is by many of your current colleagues).  You can keep evolution (understood as common descent) and all its evidences, including the fossil record, Darwin’s arguments about biogeographical distribution, and a 4.5-billion-year-old earth.  We don’t even ask you to pledge allegiance to intelligent design; we just ask you to abandon your a priori prejudice that design in nature can’t possibly be detectable, and to join us in investigating the question.   
 
And there’s an added bonus.  You’ll finally be able to abandon the unsavory company of angry, paranoid, condescending atheists like Richard Dawkins, Jerry Coyne, P.Z. Myers, Jeffrey Shallit, and Barbara Forrest.  Talk about the icing on the cake!
 
Think about it.

 

Comments
I will now attempt to repost the entry that went into cyberspace. I'll do it in parts. PART ONE: Let me also now affirm what's been said back up there a couple of times: if you want to understand/engage a serious theology of creation by a serious TE, then you would do well to go read the essay by Loren Haarsma in Keith Miller's book, Perspectives on an Evolving Creation. In a word, it's splendid. I would challenge anyone here to show what is not orthodox in Haarsma's theology, as expressed in that volume.Ted Davis
June 30, 2008
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I will answer the following two questions above, as if I were Bob Russell, based on the essay I cited above. (1) Do you believe that God programmed the process of random variation and natural selection to unfold according to a plan? YES, although "programmed" suggests more front-loading than Russell might endorse--he sees divine action as continuous and ongoing. The plan may be "programmed" in a certain sense, but God is active as it unfolds in time. (2) If so, how is this plan intellectually distinguishable from what ID proponents mean by “design”? ID proponents insist (unless I badly miss the mark) that this design (which I would see as the plan in question 1) must be demonstrable scientifically. Russell does not agree, since the sources of variations are, from the scientific point of view, "random" quantum events. Does this help, or not? Does it represent a third way?Ted Davis
June 30, 2008
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Thomas @97: My question for you can be restated as follows. 1. Psalm 139 states clearly that God is intimately involved in the creation of human bodies. I long ago concluded that this Psalm (specifically verses 13-16) means (among other things) that God claims every aspect of the development of human bodies. I can't imagine these verses being taken to mean anything else (re the formation of human bodies). 2. Developmental biologists like me study the processes that create mammalian bodies, and our findings have unquestioned explanatory force (by, for example, revealing mechanisms behind developmental diseases and pathology). The assumptions are typically naturalistic, meaning that "methodological naturalism" is employed as a working framework. Seemingly random processes such as those I alluded to in comment #65 are widespread. Despite myriad unanswered questions, including some truly vexing problems, developmental biologists like me labor under the assumption that mammalian development -- including human development -- is naturally explainable. Hearing #2, do you now doubt my commitment to #1? Do you think you should ask me if I really believe #1? Do you see a conflict here? 3. I'm a Christian developmental biologist, so I hold to all of the above; namely, I believe that God knit me together in my mother's womb, and I believe that my development occurred through natural -- even seemingly random -- processes. And yet no one has asked me to pass the "programming" test. Indeed, no one has ever expressed even the slightest surprise that I am a TE: a theistic embryologist. Now, I think that's interesting. Because I think the Bible is just as clear on God's "direct" involvement in my formation than it is on his "direct" involvement in the formation of the first humans. But no one gets agitated about all the compromising, spineless, pathetic theistic embryologists. Why is that?Steve Matheson
June 30, 2008
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Steve Matheson (#109) and StephenB (#113): I don’t want to get into refereeing small frictions here. A degree of small friction is inevitable, as I’m sure Steve Matheson will agree, since he’s said (rightly) that some sharp disagreements between the various positions exist. Certainly we must try to banish outright rudeness, insults, and lies from the discussion, but I think that if we stop to analyze every minor verbal bruise and scrape that occurs here, and try to assign blame, we will end up quarrelling over trivia. I did not understand StephenB’s comments to be personally insulting or even disrespectful. Perhaps they were a wee bit impatient, but again, we all want answers from each other, so let’s allow for a little impatience on both sides. Focusing on the issue at hand, I think that what StephenB is driving at is best expressed in this paragraph (#117): “I don’t think that there is anything ambiguous or unfair about this question: Do you believe that God programmed the process of random variation and natural selection to unfold according to a plan? In other words, does evolution know where it is going? If you do believe that it knows where it is going, then why do you militate against ID, which agrees with that proposition and side with Darwinists who don’t agree with that proposition? If you side with neither, then is your position not incoherent since there is no third option? Evolution cannot be guided and unguided at the same time.” I think Stephen is saying that many theistic evolutionists do not offer clear or direct answers regarding the question and the issue he raises in this paragraph. And I find the same frustration, which is why I wrote the original lead article which we have been discussing. That is why you find us continually recurring to the statements of Collins, Miller, Ayala and Lamoureux. We find them confusing and ambiguous, and, since they are smart guys and presumably could be direct and clear if they chose to be, we are tempted to characterize them as evasive, and to wonder about their motives. But you say you want to speak not for them but for yourself. That’s fine with me, and I presume with everyone here. So forget those others for the moment. I’d like to put it to you, Steve, certainly without contempt or rancor: (1) Do you believe that God programmed the process of random variation and natural selection to unfold according to a plan? (2) If so, how is this plan intellectually distinguishable from what ID proponents mean by “design”? (3) If the two things are not distinguishable, then what is your objection to ID (or at least to that wing of ID theory which accepts an old earth, aspects of Darwinian mechanisms, and common descent)?Thomas Cudworth
June 30, 2008
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Finally, Stephen (for now), I place below a post on the ASA list from Loren Haarsma, whose work I praise in the post that has gone missing. Loren is a TE. Do you regard his points as fair and balanced, perhaps even reasonable? Certain criticisms of Intelligent Design and Theistic Evolution are frequently recycled. These criticisms arise from common over-simplifications and misunderstandings of I.D. and T.E. I've written the following in hopes it will promote more nuanced and accurate discussions of these views. Four Common Myths about Intelligent Design --Myth #1: Intelligent Design just isn't science. --Myth #2: Intelligent Design is a science stopper. --Myth #3: Intelligent Design is just creationism in disguise. --Myth #4: Intelligent Design has a theology of "god-of-the-gaps" and "episodic deism." Four Common Myths about Theistic Evolution --Myth #1: Theistic evolutionists don't confront atheism. --Myth #2: Theistic evolution is essentially deism; it doesn't have God acting as a creator in any meaningful sense. --Myth #3: Theistic Evolutionists embrace "methodological naturalism" in science because they don't believe in miracles (or are embarrassed about miracles). --Myth #4: Theistic Evolutionists support evolution because they are worried about their jobs or their scientific respectability. This is a lengthy document, so rather than send it to all by email, here is a link: http://www.calvin.edu/~lhaarsma/IDandTE_FourMyths.doc Feel free to repost parts of it to this list if you want to discuss specific parts. Loren HaarsmaTed Davis
June 30, 2008
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Now, Stephen, as for alleged "evasion," let me briefly quote one of the most thoughtful TE advocates I know, namely Bob Russell. I quote his essay on "Special Providence and Genetic Mutation" in Keith Miller's book. "God can be understood theologically as acting purposefully within the ongoing processes of biological evolution without disrupting them or violating the laws of nature. Indeed, as its transcendent Creator, God has made a world that is open to divine action, and as its immanent and ongoing Creator, God acts in nature! God's special action results in specific, objective consequences in nature, consequences that would *not* have resulted without God's special action. Yet, b/c of the irreductibly statistical character of quantum physics, these results are entirely consistent with the laws of science, and b/c of the (ex hypothesi) indeterminism of these processes, God's special action does not entail a disruption of these processes. Essentially what science describes as variation at the genetic level without reference to God is precisely what God is purposefully accomplishing, working invisibly in, with, and through the processes of nature." etc. One might disagree with this, of course, but I don't see any evasion here, Stephen. Rather, I see a conception that does not fit into your categories. I do encourage you to read some of Russell's work, including his recent book, "Cosmology from Alpha to Omega," and engage his ideas directly rather simply as I quote them here.Ted Davis
June 30, 2008
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Stephen, I am fully aware of Barbara Forrest's religious views, but they do not invalidate what she discovered about the history of the Pandas book, any more than your religious views invalidate any facts you may state. Some of the finest attacks on atheistic extrapolations of evolution into religion, incidentally, have been written by people who are or were Christians who accept evolution--Ken Miller (in Finding Darwin's God, and again during his testimony at the Kitzmiller trial) and Howard Van Till (in his book, Science Held Hostage). These sorts of writings seem often to be ignored by ID advocates, particularly when it is said that TE advocates never challenge "Darwinists." I have no idea why that type of writing does not count. As for creating confusion with creationism, the "Reply to Francis Collins' Darwinian Arguments for Common Ancestry of Apes and Humans," by Casey Luskin and Logan Gage, appended to the new book, Intelligent Design 101, does seem to me only to further confuse things. Mike Behe agrees with Collins that the genetic evidence for common descent is conclusive; Mike wrote a chapter in this book, yet this apparent disclaimer is also in the book. Common descent is not a trivial matter, and the number one objection of creationists (both YECs and also OECs) has always been against common descent--without that, indeed, there would be no antievolution movement. If ID is really open to common descent, as is often claimed (and I think even claimed again in this book), then why do so many ID books make such a point of trying to refute it?Ted Davis
June 30, 2008
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-----"Ted Davis: However, IMO there are good reasons why your opponents can play that card (ID = YEC), even if they are wrong about the content of the card. To give here just one reason, the history and collection of authors for the book, “Of Pandas and People,” speaks volume to this point. Many here probably know all about this–and, if so, then you can see where I’m going with that." I will grant a couple of points with regard to TE error #3 (confusing Creation science with Intelligent Design) followed by a somewhat broader point about the distinction between motives and methods. Yes, the history of the authors of "Of Pandas and People" could constitute a reasonable stumbling block for some TEs, at least in the beginning. Also, the fact that some YECs disdain the Darwinian model, even when it is proposed as a Divine means for producing biodiversity, could condition some TEs to react negatively. Still, serious thinkers should be able to distinguish motives from methods. Anyone who reads the textbook, “Of Pandas And People,”the book that you allude to, will quickly discover that it is an ID textbook that goes to great lengths to separate itself from a creation science world view. In other words, the substance of the book’s contents, when read with care, cannot possibly be misunderstood as creationism. This applies even to those infamous pre-published drafts that became famous at Dover, a fact that ought to have always been front and center in this discussion. Most rational people understand that a book which contains over one hundred thousand words cannot be made into something that it is not by simply redacting a mere one hundred words or so. The reason the words were changed way back when was so that the headings would perfectly match the Supreme Court’s redefinition of the vocabulary to be used. It had absolutely nothing to do with a stealth attempt to morph a creation science textbook into a intelligent design textbook, a task that could only be accomplished by rewriting the entire book. So obviously, the authors’ motives were to clarify not to obfuscate. The fact that so many people, one judge included, were interested in those one hundred words, which did not alter the books theme in any way, and were not interested at all in the one hundred thousand words which did define its central argument, is telling don’t you think? Here is a question of similar magnitude? If the TEs we are discussing are so interested in motives, even at the expense of analyzing content, why were they not also interested in the motives of one Barbara Forrest, whose book, “Creationisms Trojan Horse,” seems to have shaped the way that they think about this issue. To be more precise, why do they not consider the fact that Forrest is a proud board member of the New Orleans Secular Humanist Association and that maybe her assessment of the book’s authors is less about their motives and more about hers? Even more, why do they not become at least a little suspicious about her insane notion that ID advocates seek to establish a Christian theocracy? By the way, thanks for reading my list of (7) TE errors. Any comments on the other six?StephenB
June 30, 2008
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Ted You're not being purposely moderated. Probably 5 or more links in your post or else you used a spam trigger word. I cleaned up the spam word list of some holdovers that are no longer necessary and bumped the URL count to 10 or more. We no longer have a spam queue so anything that gets marked as spam cannot be recovered. Instead of battling spam by sorting through it looking for comments that Akismet didn't flag correctly I modifed Wordpress so that trackbacks are no longer accepted. Faking a trackback was how all the spam was getting through. Try posting your comment again and see if I reduced the restrictions enough to allow it this time.DaveScot
June 30, 2008
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-----Ted Davis: "Responding here to StephenB (113) "Stephen, IMO one of the main reasons for ongoing frustration–on both ends–in any ID/TE conversation has to do with how an issue has been put on the table, to borrow your words. If Steve Matheson wants to frame the issue as he sees it, not as you see it, it’s his prerogative to do so." Well, sure, anyone can reframe any issue at any time. But sometimes that privilege is used as an excuse to avoid answering simple questions. If we can’t define terms and stay with those definitions, rational discourse is impossible. If I frame an issue and ask a question in a specific context, I think I deserve a fair answer to a fair question in that same context, as long as I have sufficiently defined MY terms. I don’t think that there is anything ambiguous or unfair about this question: Do you believe that God programmed the process of random variation and natural selection to unfold according to a plan? In other words, does evolution know where it is going? If you do believe that it knows where it is going, then why do you militate against ID, which agrees with that proposition and side with Darwinists who don’t agree with that proposition? If you side with neither, then is your position not incoherent since there is no third option? Evolution cannot be guided and unguided at the same time. When TEs ask me how I explain God, design, and contingency, I answer the question on their terms, as I did with my comments concerning God’s ordained will and God’s permissive will. I answer their questions on their terms, but when I ask my questions on my terms, they change the focus and tell me that I am asking the wrong questions. Either that or they discontinue the discussion on the grounds that I am being discourteous. Excuse me, but I call that evasion.StephenB
June 30, 2008
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Steve Matheson, I have lots of questions but recognize your time limitations and reluctance to engage several people because as soon as you take any point of view there will be several challenges to it. I also may not be the best person to present some of the critical questions. Here is my point of view on evolution as short as I can make it and why I chose the question I did. Darwin's ideas work fine for what we call micro evolution and this is what most people who accept evolution are really referring to when they understand evolution or survival of the fittest. The reason I say this is what most people refer to is because when we ask people, this is what they provide, including some important advocates of Darwin's ideas as the mechanism for the origin of all species. Such a process in reality has produced mainly minor changes to a species, even in the long term. So changes to single celled organism or adaptations of multi-celled to a changing environment is well accepted and uncontroversial for most who support ID. Darwin's ideas and all the modern variations of it (let's call it gradualism) do not explain many of the changes which have been seen in the fossil record which indicate the introduction over time of complex functional capabilities into the animal world (we will call this macro evolution). I will leave out plants. Actually I know of none that gradualism explains. So as of the present there is no coherent theory to explain the arrival of new species with complex functional capabilities that were not present prior to their appearance. They appear on the scene with no obvious predecessor. I leave out the origin of life issue at the moment because there is a change in magnitude for the difficulty of the problems with resolving this issue. Hence any specific questions I have about evolution will be limited to macro evolution. Let's be very general. Is there empirical evidence that gradualism can explain the arrival of new species that have complex functional capabilities? If so what are some examples and the evidence to support these examples? Feel free to reject or modify the question to something you believe is more relevant.jerry
June 30, 2008
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I correct a typo in my post above: But if you get to define the terms, then at some point some folks may want to take issue with those definitions.Ted Davis
June 30, 2008
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Still haven't seen my other post, which tries to clarify the design/evidence/divine governance issues. I won't try to recreate it, though I may try again to post it later. Responding here to StephenB (113): Stephen, IMO one of the main reasons for ongoing frustration--on both ends--in any ID/TE conversation has to do with how an issue has been put on the table, to borrow your words. If Steve Matheson wants to frame the issue as he sees it, not as you see it, it's his prerogative to do so. Phil Johnson and others, from the beginning of the conversation about ID, have framed the issue in a certain way--such that anyone who thinks that "random" processes play an important role in the history of life has ipso facto (a) denied the purposefulness of the universe; (b) denied "design" in the history of biology; and (c) abandoned any Christian theism worthy of that label. Phil is of course a master rhetorician--that's his professional expertise, and the word "rhetorician" here is not a pejorative. But if you get to define the terms, then at some point some folks will may to take issue with those definitions. It is not cruel and unusual punishment, to point this out. Once terms (such as "design," "random," and "Darwinism") have been defined in a certain way, then anyone whose views do not fit into those boxes can be dismissed as incoherent; but that label might well be simply a consequence of making definitions that are carefully designed (to borrow a word) to force people into boxes that won't hold their views.Ted Davis
June 30, 2008
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Steve Matheson: I did not exhibit any contempt toward you. I simply raised issues about the incoherence of your position and you regarded it as contempt. It is not cruel an unusual punishment to hold people accountable for their views and their willingness to conform to the principles of right reason. Contrary to your opinion, you don't reserve the right to reframe an issue that was already on the table in ways that serve your own ends.StephenB
June 30, 2008
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Ted, It is probably not a moderation issue or your tests would not get posted. Steve Matheson posted a long comment to me and it would not post. I took it and copied it from his website and posted under my name and it would not post. I then posted each section and each posted fine till the last paragraph which would not post. It seemed like an innocuous paragraph but there must have been something in it that caused the problem.jerry
June 30, 2008
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Ted, It may very well not be a moderation issue. I've had posts not take for reasons yet to fathom. If it is a moderation issue, the mods aren't shy about saying so.tribune7
June 30, 2008
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Thomas @97: please advise on how we should proceed regarding the issues jerry has raised (discussion of TEoE). Also, thanks for the response to my question; I'll get back to you this evening (EDT) sometime. kairosfocus@99: my question is not about evolution, it's about embryonic development. The quote from Meyer is dealing with evolution. At this point, I can't even consider opening a discussion of Meyer's ideas alongside other threads, but if you want to read overviews of the kinds of mutations that Meyer claims "don't happen," try some of the reviews on my blog. And I will explain my opinion of the moderation policy later. For now, suffice it to say that I find UD to be poorly suited to the kind of discussion that I prefer.Steve Matheson
June 30, 2008
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StephenB, you have had the last word. I don't intend to answer it, because it is largely unrelated to anything I've written and displays a brazen lack of respect for my simple requests regarding this conversation. Please feel free to interpret my ending of the conversation with you in any way that suits you. I have registered your contempt, and have given it the consideration it is due.Steve Matheson
June 30, 2008
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... still haven't seen it. Does anyone know why I should (appparently) be moderated?Ted Davis
June 30, 2008
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Steve Matheson: This thread is less about your being a friendly ID critic and more about our being friendly TE critics as is clear in the title. Still, I will make a brief point about your criticisms, which are non definitive by any means. In your original post, you stated that you do not agree with the ID science, that is, in terms of “complexity” and “irreducibility,” but you did not say why. So you didn’t really give reasons as you suggest. You simply registered your protest. Anyone can say that they don’t agree with a proposition. As it stands, I don’t have a clue about why you can’t accept Dembski’s paradigm and Behe’s paradigm, because you have not provided one. Now, onward to the theme of the thread. Several of us have provided good solid reasons for charactering TE as an incoherent world view, reasons which you have not answered. Indeed, that is the theme of this thread, one which you seem to resent and yet cannot refute. I presented three specific examples with Miller, Collins, and Lamoureux, all of whom have contradicted themselves. You remained silent about my examples. I didn’t just pull these examples out of the blue; I chose them because they are YOUR guys. Again, I explain that evolution either contains and internal principle or it doesn’t. Your response is that you don’t know what in internal principle is and you care even less. If had used the word “programmed,” would that have helped. God either programmed evolution or he didn’t. Are you aware of the fact that Collins and Miller, in Darwinian fashion, do not believe that evolution was programmed by the creator because, like most TEs, they reject teleology in principle? That is what Darwinism means (pure Darwinism, if you like); it means NO PROGRAM. ID insists that, if God did create through evolution, that either he directed or programmed the process it. For programmed evolution, we use the term “front loaded” to describe the unfolding of an “internal principle.” So, I put it to you. Do you believe that evolution was programmed or don’t you? If you do, why are you celebrating Collins and Miller who do not believe it? Further, why are you not interested in the fact that Lamoureux, YOUR example, contradicts himself on this matter, as I have already shown. You say that you disagree with my notion of design, and yet what you don’t realize is that you have TWO notions of design, one for your science and one for your theology. That is one of the reasons that your movement is incoherent. For my part, ID can resolve the problem of God’s sovereignty and man’s free will by appealing to God’s ordained will and God’s permissive will as I did at That way, contingency is real for God and for us. Once again, you have no comment on that matter. Finally, you say that you accept “naturalistic explanations” for the human brain, but that evades the issue. That is irrelevant. The real question is this: Do you accept naturalistic explanations for the “human mind?”StephenB
June 30, 2008
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Testing. I sent another post in twice in the past 15 minutes, and I've haven't seen it yet...Ted Davis
June 30, 2008
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jerry, I've explained my position already on this thread. As I told StephenB, I'm still open to answering questions about my specific ideas, but I'm not open to lengthy discussion of the positions of others. StephenB has opted out, by reverting to culture war mode (to borrow a phrase from Thomas, who I'm hoping will soon scold StephenB for his crudely disrespectful tone toward me). But if, after reading my previous comments, you still have a question, then let's hear it. And as I've requested before, please keep in mind that I can't sustain a free-for-all with even one of you, much less a whole gang. Please, if only because you think I should be treated courteously as a visitor to your gated community, think of me as a person and not as just another of StephenB's "TE's", and give me the space to discuss points of interest without being used as a scapegoat.Steve Matheson
June 30, 2008
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I respond to StephenB (number 40): "Error #3: Confusing young earth creationism with intelligent design. There is simply no excuse for this. If they make that mistake, then they are scandalously uninformed and not worth taking seriously. Their obligation to understand and to not misrepresent the other side should weigh heavily on them, because their errors can compromise and ruin someone’s career. Our side doesn’t have that kind of power." Stephen, We agree about where most of the power is. I wrote two long, pointed letters to the president of Iowa State, defending Guillermo Gonzalez' ability and intellectual freedom. We're on the same page with that part. I also agree that ID is not YEC, and I've written about that in traditional print media with gatekeepers, and haven't gotten any bonus points from your opponents for that. However, IMO there are good reasons why your opponents can play that card (ID = YEC), even if they are wrong about the content of the card. To give here just one reason, the history and collection of authors for the book, "Of Pandas and People," speaks volume to this point. Many here probably know all about this--and, if so, then you can see where I'm going with that. As I said here in another thread, the tone and tactics that often emanate from the IDM can sound a lot like the tone and look a lot like the tactics that emanate from the YEC camp. If however ID had from the start been clear and clean about some key points in the historical sciences--whose legitimacy, frankly, seems to be questioned by many in the ID camp--this particular card could not be played. (And it's an ace, not a deuce, given the history of this issue in the courts and the weight of the scientific evidence on the non-YEC side.) What needed to happen, IMO, a long time ago, was for people to say, "hey, if we're going to promote the scientific detection of design, then we need to make sure that everyone realizes we accept the big bang (from which the best design arguments come, IMO), we accept common descent of humans and other organisms, and we accept an earth that's been around for billions of years before we arrived on the scene." That would, IMO, have circumvented this problem that you now seem to have. But, as noted above in one or two places (and as I've written in publication), then a lot of the popular support for ID would just not exist. ID would be advancing truth, but at the expense of political support. That's my two cents on that one.Ted Davis
June 30, 2008
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StephenB, That is my experience too but maybe Stephen Matheson can shed light on why he accepts a naturalistic viewpoint for macro evolution. Hopefully, we can have a dialog on it. Here are some interesting quotes about/from Stanley Jaki, a priest and world respected cosmologists: The scientific evidence does not prove the existence of Darwin's Theory of Evolution. "I firmly hold that evolution has not been proven as a scientific theory ought to be proven: by detailed observation or replication of the individual steps." The great gap in evolutionary theory, he said, was the total absence of intermediate species between genera, families or phyla. (Interestingly. Fr. Jaki said he believed in evolution for "essentially metaphysical and theological reasons", and particularly, his belief that the infinite wisdom and power of God would not have required him to constantly interfere in the processes he himself had created.) He said, "Rabid evolutionists like Stephen Gould, T.H. Huxley, Sir Peter Medawar and others, are using the assertion that evolution has been proved scientifically, for other purposes: to deny the existence of God, and to assert that we are just the product of random processes." He said, "Evolutionary theory also doesn't explain the purposeful behaviour of human beings. In fact, it says that everything is purposeless: this is the standard materialist evolutionary theory. "However no scientific theory can include the notion of purpose: it can only study aspects which are measurable. Free will, understanding, and similar qualities cannot be measured scientifically." Some modern theories of the origin of the universe have been put forward to justify the materialist evolutionary view, he said."jerry
June 30, 2008
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Jerry, the problem is that TEs do not like to face the problem of incoherence, which was the original topic under discussion. They will happily join in a new discussion on any off topic comment and use that as means of avoiding the hard questions already on the table. That is what seems to have happened here.StephenB
June 30, 2008
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Thomas Cudworth, I was only trying to post Stephen Matheson's comment here. He said it didn't get posted so I was trying to get it posted in pieces to see why it failed to post. It was long and it finally was something in his last paragraph that caused it to fail. I am quite willing to leave the Edge of Evolution alone on this thread and have it possibly be another thread where someone takes Stephen Matheson's position. That would be interesting. However, the nature of Darwin's ideas and how they relate to one's beliefs on evolution amongst those who oppose ID is fair game on this thread. That is why I brought it up because it relates to macro evolution and that is the real issue of ID along with OOL. It brings up the interesting question of why ID should be skewered because we believe certain scientific findings are consistently misapplied. I think that is part of your position also and I was trying to encourage debate on the topic. Since this topic too could go on for ever, I will drop it here but someone should try to engage someone like Stephen Matheson to debate it on another thread in the future. We generally fail to find someone who is willing to defend naturalistic processes for macro evolution. Stephen would be an ideal person to have a dialog with and I hope he participates on this topic in the future.jerry
June 30, 2008
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PPS to Steve I think, on long observation, that your "casual censorship" remark is not a fair characterisation of UD. A truer and fairer one, would be that there is a general -- and too often unacknowledged -- problem with irresponsibility, abuse and incivility in the discussion of this matter [largely coming from evolutionary materialist thinkers/advocates and their fellow travellers], and that by insisting on a modicum of civility, UD has fostered a climate of reasoned discussion. (On this, I speak from too much and too painful experience, both here and elsewhere.) There have been occasions on which the moderation or banning has been overdone, but that is understandable given the sort of behaviour we are talking about. [And, I have observed willingness to re-think on a significant fraction of cases when things have gone too far. Even though I have my own reservations, too.] Please, think again. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
June 30, 2008
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H'mm: Meyer, in that infamous PBSW paper, on Embryonic dev't and its implications:
In order to explain the origin of the Cambrian animals, one must account not only for new proteins and cell types, but also for the origin of new body plans . . . Mutations in genes that are expressed late in the development of an organism will not affect the body plan. Mutations expressed early in development, however, could conceivably produce significant morphological change (Arthur 1997:21) . . . [but] processes of development are tightly integrated spatially and temporally such that changes early in development will require a host of other coordinated changes in separate but functionally interrelated developmental processes downstream. For this reason, mutations will be much more likely to be deadly if they disrupt a functionally deeply-embedded structure such as a spinal column than if they affect more isolated anatomical features such as fingers (Kauffman 1995:200) . . . McDonald notes that genes that are observed to vary within natural populations do not lead to major adaptive changes, while genes that could cause major changes--the very stuff of macroevolution--apparently do not vary. In other words, mutations of the kind that macroevolution doesn't need (namely, viable genetic mutations in DNA expressed late in development) do occur, but those that it does need (namely, beneficial body plan mutations expressed early in development) apparently don't occur.6
TE's, over to you . . . if chance + mechanical necessity are enough to explain the matter, HOW? [In short, I am raising the point that on inference to best and empirically anchored explanation, fine-tuned, functionally specified, complex information is as a rule, the product of intentional design. And for excellent reasons associated with the relative isolation and rarity of islands of function in configuration spaces. Random walks from arbitrary initial points have serious limitations as search algorithms under those circumstances. Cf Dembski and Marks on Active Information.] GEM of TKI PS: Frosty, there is a well-known Constitution that does explicitly stipulate separation of church and state. The 1976 USSR Constitution. That is, the point was to implicitly establish atheism as the ruling worldview; and the cost to liberty was notorious. (TE's need to assess how they will proceed to ground fundamentally moral concepts such as "rights" in a world in which the atheists are given the ultimate veto on policy. Especially given the basic conundrum faced by evolutionary materialism on grounding morality and mind. The currently raging culture wars are abundantly illustrative of the patent absurdities that result. but then, when one lives in Plato's Cave, one can imagine or assert that the absurd is the real.]kairosfocus
June 30, 2008
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Thomas, I think he might mean Psalm 139:13
For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. (NIV)
Apollos
June 29, 2008
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Steve Matheson (#94): Yes, I see design in human embryonic development, and in all embryonic development, and in fact in all biological processes. I mean real design, not apparent design. As for Psalm 139, you didn't specify a verse number or give a quotation; obviously you want me to compare or contrast something in that Psalm with my notion of design, but you'll have to tell me directly where to look. I'm guessing it's the line about the lowest parts of the earth, but please just quote me the exact lines and tell me exactly what is the potential conflict between faith and science that you want me to consider.Thomas Cudworth
June 29, 2008
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