Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Theistic Evolutionists, Your Position Is Incoherent — But We Can Help You!

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email
In this, my first column for Uncommon Descent, I’d like to address what seems to be a fundamental contradiction running through the writings of many “theistic evolutionists,” and propose an adjustment to their theoretical framework.
 
Critics of theistic evolution (TE) have often suggested that theistic evolutionists (TEs) have to put themselves through mental contortions in order to remain Christian while embracing Darwin.  Yet a person very well versed in TE literature has informed me that many TEs do not appear to feel any such intellectual discomfort.  They reconcile Christianity and Darwin, he suggests, by holding to an “old earth creationist” position, by interpreting Genesis non-literally, and by treating evolution as God’s “creation tool.” 
 
The first two points are non-controversial.  There is plenty of room within orthodox Christianity for the belief that the earth is very old, and for less-than-completely-literal interpretations of Genesis.  However, the proposition that evolution could be “God’s creation tool” is open to more than one interpretation, and bears closer examination.  Given that most TEs appear to be strict Darwinists with respect to the mechanism of evolution (i.e., chance mutations plus natural selection), critical observers are justified in inquiring about the suitability of the Darwinian mechanism as a “creation tool” for a specifically Christian God.

I would not have a problem understanding evolution as God’s “creation tool,” if TEs conceived of evolution as a “tool” in the strict sense.  A tool in the strict sense is fully in the control of the tool-user, and the results it achieves (when properly used by a competent user) are not due to chance but to intelligence and skill.  But Darwin’s mechanism leaves room for neither intelligence nor skill; it is the unconscious operation of impersonal natural selection upon mutations which are the products of chance.  It follows that Darwinian evolution is not a tool, but an autonomous process, and therefore out of God’s control.
 
This has a theological consequence.  If evolution is out of God’s control, it is incompatible with the notion of providence — the notion that God provides for the future needs of the earth and its inhabitants.  God can hardly, for example, provide for the need of Hagar in the desert, if he can’t even guarantee that the human race, of which Hagar is a member, will ever emerge from the primordial seas.  (The radical contingency of the Darwinian mechanism is captured well by Darwinist Stephen Jay Gould, when he wrote that if the tape of evolution were rewound and played again, the results would be entirely different.  Once God sets a truly Darwinian process in motion, he has no control over whether it will produce Adam and Eve, a race of pointy-eared Vulcans, or just an ocean full of bacteria.)
 
A non-providential God is clearly not an orthodox Christian God, and it therefore appears that theistic evolutionism generates heretical Christianity.  As I see it, the only way for theistic evolutionists to escape this consequence is to argue that mutations seem like chance events from the human perspective, but from God’s perspective are foreordained.  But in that case, “evolution” is really just the actualization of a foreseen design over a very long time frame; the “purely natural causes” spoken of by the TEs are really just the unrecognized fingertips of the very long arm of God.  This view, which we might call “apparent Darwinism,” fails to get God out of the process of natural causation, which was (as Cornelius Hunter has argued) Darwinism’s historical raison d’être.
 
In response to this, TEs could say:  “Well, we are Christians, so of course we believe that these apparently chance events were divinely foreordained and therefore are not ultimately chance events.  Our goal is not to deny the ultimate agency of God, but only to establish that the design of living things, though certainly in the mind of God at the beginning of the world’s creation, is not humanly DETECTABLE, as the ID proponents say it is.  Evolution proceeds as if directed by chance; neither our sense nor our instruments are capable of registering the difference between mutations produced by the hidden hand of God and mutations produced by chance.  Operationally, science must proceed as if chance alone is at work.  There is therefore no legitimately scientific design inference.  Design is a theological interpretation of the natural data, not a scientific one.  And that is why we remain theistic evolutionists, appealing to strictly Darwinian causation in our science and keeping our theological interpretation of nature out of the labs, schools and universities.”
 
This has surface plausibility.  But note that, if this argument is accepted, there is no longer any metaphysical difference between TE and ID.  Given this argument, both ID and TE acknowledge that living creatures are in fact designed by God and brought into being exactly in accord with God’s will.  The difference that remains between TE and ID is not over metaphysics but over epistemology, i.e., over the question:  How do we KNOW that the flagellum or the wing of a bird or the circulatory system is a consequence of design rather than chance?  And here is where TE takes its final stand:  it is only by faith, not by the scientific study of nature, that we can know this.
 
But how does TE verify this doctrine?  Surely the question whether design detection can be an empirical science is itself subject to empirical investigation, and cannot be prematurely settled by any dogmatic pronouncement.  TE is thus obliged to look at the work of those who claim that design detection can be an empirical science, and to consider that claim on its merits, not dismiss it out of hand.  It thus must engage the arguments of Dembski, Behe, etc.  TE is of course free to argue that Dembski and Behe and the others fail to provide an adequate basis for a science of design detection, by pointing to real or alleged flaws in their arguments.  But this still means that TE must abandon a priori epistemological declarations and enter whole-heartedly into the honest consideration of whether design in nature is detectable by scientific means.
 
Thus, we see that the foundational contradiction at the very core of TE (that orthodox Christianity is 100% true, and that the Darwinian mechanism is also 100% true), puts TEs on the horns of a dilemma.  Accept the complete truth of the Darwinian mechanism, and one must deny at least one key Christian doctrine, i.e., providence.  Alternately, accept the complete truth of all the core Christian doctrines, including providence, and “chance” is a fiction, Darwinism is a guided process, there is design, and design may in principle be detectable.  TEs thus have a choice.  If their priority, their most important motivation, is to ban the notion of design from science, they can do so, by affirming that chance rather than providence is ultimately real; the cost is the adoption of a non-Christian theology.  If, on the other hand, their priority is to account for the origin of species and of man within the framework of providence, they must affirm that chance is not ultimately real; the cost is the abandonment of the Darwinian mechanism.   
 
Let me summarize.  It is possible to be a theistic evolutionist without contradiction.  It is possible to be a specifically Christian theistic evolutionist without contradiction.  It is not, however, possible to be a Christian DARWINIST without contradiction.  A Christian Darwinist is bound to maintain logically incompatible positions:  that evolution is both a tool and an autonomous process, that providence and chance are both ultimately real, that design is potentially detectable and that it is a priori indetectable.  This intellectual schizophrenia cannot be maintained.  TEs must decide whether or not their grudge against ID and its proponents is more important to them than the maintenance of a consistently orthodox Christian theology. 
 
TEs, you can join us at no real cost.  You can keep your Christian faith (which incidentally is more highly respected by even non-Christian ID advocates than it is by many of your current colleagues).  You can keep evolution (understood as common descent) and all its evidences, including the fossil record, Darwin’s arguments about biogeographical distribution, and a 4.5-billion-year-old earth.  We don’t even ask you to pledge allegiance to intelligent design; we just ask you to abandon your a priori prejudice that design in nature can’t possibly be detectable, and to join us in investigating the question.   
 
And there’s an added bonus.  You’ll finally be able to abandon the unsavory company of angry, paranoid, condescending atheists like Richard Dawkins, Jerry Coyne, P.Z. Myers, Jeffrey Shallit, and Barbara Forrest.  Talk about the icing on the cake!
 
Think about it.

 

Comments
To Thomas @91 and jerry @85ff: I think Thomas is right that dicussion of TEoE is off topic here, and he's right that if we're going to explore the subject, we should do it under another thread. While I don't object in principle to my words or name being used in a thread title, I would join the conversation only under some pretty clear conditions. I have two concerns about opening up a new thread devoted to my criticism of TEoE. My biggest worry is time; my family is taking a brief vacation to Boston next weekend, and I'm already swamped with important unfinished projects. I would need to limit the time I spend on the discussion, and given that it's already 4 on 1, I can imagine that it would be very difficult to keep pace. The other concern is the nature of this venue. The conversation would not be an open one, given the moderation policy. I'm deeply uncomfortable with this place, not just because it's hard to see how it would be fair to me, but because I'm so completely opposed to the casual censorship employed here. Bill calls it his "playground" so maybe it's not the right place for the kind of discussion we might want to have. Is this clear, and what do you think?Steve Matheson
June 29, 2008
June
06
Jun
29
29
2008
08:18 PM
8
08
18
PM
PDT
Steve asks, "This is not a trick question; I’m very curious about how the whole natural vs. God thing works out for ID thinkers when considering biological phenomena other than evolution." The answer is that for some hey and for some nay. The explanitory filter usually is the clincher and I would guess that depending on how you applied it to embryonic development certain features especially the emryo itself, IS designed. A good question inlight of modern politivs is "at what stage does the embryo NOT display design?" I for one would love to hear Dembski on this one!Frost122585
June 29, 2008
June
06
Jun
29
29
2008
07:58 PM
7
07
58
PM
PDT
Thomas @89: I'll be glad to leave the discussions of culture-war casualties behind. If you read my response to StephenB again, you might find that you have been too harsh in your judgment of my words. (In fact, I think your comment that I "reverted to culture war mode" is patently unfair.) But either way, I'm still committed to our discussion, and I will let your comments stand as they are, if that means we're done with that particular diversion. I'll add that while I think you've been unfair in your characterization of my comments, I don't think you meant to be rude or disrespectful, and I'm still glad to be a part of the conversation. I'll also add that we should all work on being patient with each other: we have substantive disagreements on emotionally-charged questions of real import. We should expect each other to behave civilly, but we oughtn't be surprised to see some sharp disagreement. I'm okay with that (or I wouldn't be here), and I think you need to be okay with that. I propose that we wrap it up, for now anyway, perhaps by looking over the previous installments to see if there are any questions we'd still like to ask each other. I'll start, if that's okay. Do you see design in the processes of human embryonic development? (I do.) If so, do you think that a Christian developmental biologist who embraces naturalistic explanations of these processes should be expected to affirm that s/he believes that Psalm 139 speaks the truth? This is not a trick question; I'm very curious about how the whole natural vs. God thing works out for ID thinkers when considering biological phenomena other than evolution.Steve Matheson
June 29, 2008
June
06
Jun
29
29
2008
07:48 PM
7
07
48
PM
PDT
That is as loyal and devout theists most of us are not inclined to think God "evolved" his plan- but that his pan transcends matter chance and necessity- that it is "instantiated" but not evolved. And that the final product was designed and realized or completed but not incidental. Evolution (the non random kind) seems moot when you are a true Theist.Frost122585
June 29, 2008
June
06
Jun
29
29
2008
07:26 PM
7
07
26
PM
PDT
The idea of theistic evolution is merely PC for either theism or Darwinism Evolution with some religion on the side. Religion does not square with Darwinian Evolution but evolution does (in the proper form) square with theism. So the word theistic evolution is vacuous because it doesn't tell us anything about the person except that they "claim" to believe in God and "some definition" of evolution. In reality most or all IDists are theistic evolutionists. But the problem is that people like Ken Miller use the term not to being the two realms together into a synthesis but to separate them and keep them apart to support an extreme interpretation of the first amendment which states and I quote
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Clearly it DOES NOT HAVE THE WORDS "Separation of church and state" anywhere in it. So if theistic evolution is used to compartmentalize theology and evolution then it is a negative connotation and has a different meaning than if it means a unity of the two. Either way "Theistic Evolution" is non-substantive and vacuous. and clearly PC. It has nothing to do with ID. You can be a TE and not believe in ID and you can be a TE and believe in ID. IT doesn’t matter. However know this, that most people who believe in a "theistic God" not a "Deistic" one, will NOT call themselves theistic evolutionists because evolution is for most theists a demeaning term for God's plan. This is why I as some one who believes in God and evolution to some extent do not call myself a theistic evolutionist and am very suspicious of those who do. Especially in light of how much abuse evolution has gotten from the methodological materialists.Frost122585
June 29, 2008
June
06
Jun
29
29
2008
07:07 PM
7
07
07
PM
PDT
Jerry: I appreciate the fairness that motivates your efforts to dig out Steve Matheson’s post about Behe, which was apparently blocked from being posted here. But I’m wondering if we should be addressing this subject under our current title. The original post was about internal contradictions in TE regarding Darwinism and God’s providence. If we start debating population genetics and Behe’s Edge of Evolution under this title, aren’t we going way off topic? I’m not against someone posting a new topic, with a new title, like “Matheson vs. Behe’s Edge of Evolution” – provided Mr. Matheson gives permission to have his words quoted in the new lead column. But I don’t think we should pursue this subject further here. Please understand that, as far as I know, I have no authority to tell anyone what to do, or even to cut off discussion on my original posting, so if people want to go ahead and talk about Matheson vs. Behe, I won’t make a fuss about it. But I’m recommending that we save the new topic for another column, and stick, on this particular page, with the original theme of TE and Darwinism.Thomas Cudworth
June 29, 2008
June
06
Jun
29
29
2008
06:43 PM
6
06
43
PM
PDT
Jerry if you would please take a closer look at what Behe is saying here. You have chance and contingency as the two operation of the modern neo-darwinian synthesis. It is no surprise that laws of physics and symmetries ARE required for even the most reductionist views of evolution to work hence even the atheist pales in the face of answering how the those symmetries "evolved" as he has nothing else to appeal to but multiverse of which we have absolutely no evidence, no intuition and no concept of how infinite probabilities can give you ANYTHING. So Behe's book is focusing on where evolution does and does not cover the bill, that is "purchase" SC. I emailed Behe a little while back to get his view on what exactly he thinks DID happened if not chance and necessity. I asked him if "the laws of physics" are what he appeals to, to do the design work. Behe gave me an excellent answer. He basically said, "The laws of physics (if you mean by laws like the ones of Newtonian physics) are themselves few and far in between not only in what they can explain but in actual number." In other words, even with our interpretations of how symmetries (i.e. designs) come about there is still "a lot of room" where both necessity AND of course randomness cannot get the job done. This is a FACT of evolutionary theory. If scientists are unwilling to endore the thrust of Behe's main work it's because they have other metaphysical commitments outside of defining the obvious boundaries or “Edge” of what evo can explain. This is a perversion of any scientfic disapline- and the mark of Dogma. As the old saying goes "A man's got to know his limitations" and what's true for a man should be equally true for his theories.Frost122585
June 29, 2008
June
06
Jun
29
29
2008
06:33 PM
6
06
33
PM
PDT
Steve Matheson (#84): I’m disappointed by your latest reply to StephenB. Over the past week, we – meaning both you and all the respondents to my original posting – have worked so hard here to establish a civil tone, and to get a conversation going that focuses on the substance of the issues, not the politics of culture war; yet now you seem to have reverted to a culture war mode. You keep reminding us of all the bad things that ID and YEC supporters have done on this blog, rather than focusing on the subject matter at hand. Those of us who have been trying to encourage your constructive criticism have tried to forget about past injuries on both sides and get on with discussion of science and theology. We’ve asked about real vs. apparent chance events, about the relationship between God and the Darwinian mechanism, and so on. This is what we want to hear your thoughts on, and the thoughts of any of your colleagues. But instead, we’re being treated to a barrage of complaints about what others have written on this site in the past, in some cases months or years in the past. Can’t we rise above this and discuss the issues? I feel impelled to add that you show a bit of oversensitivity about small injuries (petty sniping, being kicked off of a blog) while displaying insensitivity toward big ones (like the fact that, say, Guillermo Gonzalez lost a job, despite supercompetence in his field, due to his ID sympathies). Losing a job, a salary, a career, is a little bigger blow to take than having one’s pride wounded by disagreement or eviction from an internet talk group. I read the little history of Calvin College’s attitude towards evolution that you wrote. Let’s suppose that Calvin College had denied you tenure, instead of granting it, on the basis of its disagreement with your evolutionary views, even though your teaching and research records were outstanding. How would you have felt? And how would you like it if your department had put a sign on its door saying that it disavowed your views, and in effect that you were an embarrassment to the institution? And how would you like it if an arrogant, self-centered, attention-seeking grad student with the most vulgar manners insulted you repeatedly in public, and then, when you retorted -- long after even Job would have yielded to provocation -- with a very mild and dry put-down, you were accused all over the world of being “sexist”, and that accusation was immortalized in Wikipedia, a “reference” tool consulted by millions? What you seem to fail to perceive is that ID is not a politically powerful movement. It can do little harm to those who oppose it, beyond verbal abuse. Darwinism, on the other hand, is a view endowed with vast wealth, political prestige, and the levers of administrative power in the world of science and academia. It has the power to humiliate, to ostracize, to crush, to take away salaries and research grants, and to ruin careers (and with that, in many cases, lives and marriages). And it has proved that it will use that power ruthlessly, as it has done to numerous YECs, OECs, and ID supporters. You do not have to worry, as you are safely ensconced in an institution which allows you a high degree of freedom in both in your science and in your musings about science and theology. But I’d expect a little more empathy for the less fortunate from a Christian biologist who teaches at a Christian college. Again, I’m disappointed.Thomas Cudworth
June 29, 2008
June
06
Jun
29
29
2008
06:25 PM
6
06
25
PM
PDT
Hey moderators, the third paragraph from Stephen Matheson about the Edge of Evolution will not post. If you can dig it out of the spam bin, put it up. I have read it several times and cannot figure out what is in it that is causing the problem.jerry
June 29, 2008
June
06
Jun
29
29
2008
06:09 PM
6
06
09
PM
PDT
From Stephen Matheson on the Edge of Evolution "2. The book's central argument is based fundamentally on population genetics, but ignores the work of the world's most prominent and accomplished geneticists. Allen Orr, for example, is precisely the kind of expert whose work should be the focus of Behe's analysis, but Behe's references to Orr's work are minimal. He leaves untouched the entire field of evolutionary genetics, merely cherry-picking two of Orr's papers. The point is this: a serious consideration of evolutionary genetics -- never mind a complete rewriting of the entire field -- should show marks of serious engagement with existing ideas. TEoE doesn't even try to do this. And most tellingly, Behe hasn't been able to get population geneticists to endorse his book, or to follow up on his assertions. Did he even ask Allen Orr to read the manuscript before going to press? Has he asked Allen Orr to critically review the book, the way any real scientist would seek critical feedback before (or after) advancing a big new idea?"jerry
June 29, 2008
June
06
Jun
29
29
2008
06:01 PM
6
06
01
PM
PDT
Here is the first part of Stephen Mateson's comments on the Edge of Evolution. "And what about Behe's The Edge of Evolution? Writing carefully about his errors is not easy; evolutionary genetics is challenging under the best of conditions, and laypersons are understandably poorly-equipped to grasp the necessary details. I have been planning a series on my blog, and this conversation might get that project moved up on the to-do list. I've explained some of the most dramatic errors on my blog, and I'll add three further comments here. 1. In TEoE and elsewhere, Behe presents a highly simplified vision of adaptation and microevolution, in which only beneficial mutations are maintained in populations. He gives the impression that a population would only harbor a given mutation or polymorphism if that change had been specifically favored by selection. This is a substantial mischaracterization of evolutionary genetics, overlooking some very important aspects of eukaryotic genetics. There are several mechanisms, well-known to geneticists but almost universally neglected in popular discussions of evolution and inheritance, that can lead to the maintenance of a non-adaptive or "non-beneficial" allele in a population, especially in a sexually-reproducing diploid population (like, say, Plasmodium falciparum). Moreover, during evolutionary and/or environmental change, the beneficial-ness of a particular allele can change completely. Beware of simple evolutionary stories in which adaptation can only proceed in happy little steps from good to better to best. Genetics is more complicated (and interesting) than that."jerry
June 29, 2008
June
06
Jun
29
29
2008
05:54 PM
5
05
54
PM
PDT
Stephen Matheson, The part which prevented your comments answering my questions to get posted was in the comments on Behe. My guess it is the links that caused the problems. When I tried to post that part of your comments it again failed to post and in the past links sometimes cause problems. So I will try to post it in parts to get your comments up for all to read since I believe this part of your answer will generate discussion and strictly on the science of what Behe has proposed.jerry
June 29, 2008
June
06
Jun
29
29
2008
05:52 PM
5
05
52
PM
PDT
To StephenB @80: I don't think we're going to make much more progress, since I don't think I'm making it clear enough to you that I see God and His world differently than you do. You seem unwilling or unable to reflect on what I have already said and to account for my words in your responses to them. Perhaps I haven't been clear enough on my position with regard to "pure Darwinism," but I think it's more likely that you won't accept the fact that I don't see "design" the way you do, and that I reject your preferred assumptions regarding "randomness" and God's work. I will offer these final thoughts in response to your post, and then you can have the last word if you wish. This does not mean that I won't discuss other topics with you, or that I'm leaving UD for good, but it does mean that you have exhausted my patience on this subject. 1. I don't know what an "internal principle" is, and at this point I really don't care, but if you want to know what I think of "pure Darwinism" you can re-read what I've already written here. 2. There are multiple reasons why "Pure Darwinists" and "Miller, Collins et al" are hostile to ID. If you think your movement is controversial solely because it "implies the INTENT behind the evolutionary process," then you're wholly deluded. I am opposed to your movement, and I'm not a pure Darwinist. Unsuccessfully it would seem, I have tried to explain why. 3. I'm a pretty good Calvinist, so I believe that our world belongs to God and was created by Him. And so I do think that all things were brought into existence by His hand. Because I'm only a pretty good Calvinist (i.e., not a perfect one), I wonder about the idea of freedom and how it works out in creation. I am undecided about how exactly to explain or account for creaturely freedom, and I'm content to consider it one of many mysteries. For now, I am unwilling to commit to a puppet-show universe with no freedom, and equally unwilling to commit to open theology (as I understand it). As I hope you can see, my thinking on this issue does not lend itself well to the simplistic dichotomies that you seem to favor. That's not my problem. 4. I didn't come here to argue about what Francis Collins and Ken Miller believe or say. I came here to explain why I, a fellow Christian and practicing biologist, do not support your movement. Because our conversation went well, without any of the ugliness that characterizes the broader cultural confrontation, I now consider myself a fully-minted "friendly critic." That's a pretty big step, I think, but it doesn't mean I have a whole lot more patience with the generally obnoxious tenor of this blog, or of the Discovery Institute, and it sure doesn't mean that I will waste my time listening to a lot of whining about culture-war body counts. Count me as a friendly critic, perhaps even occasional defender, but not as a friendly audience for melodramatic portrayals of ID persecution, and certainly not as a scapegoat for the sins of whoever it is you can't stand.Steve Matheson
June 29, 2008
June
06
Jun
29
29
2008
05:16 PM
5
05
16
PM
PDT
Stephen Mateson, you said in your currently excluded post "First, re banning on this site, I've heard from too many decent people on this topic to believe that the policy here is a good one. And the claim that people are banned due to "ad hominems" is laughable, as anyone who reads this blog knows all too well. I've been warmly welcomed, and that's all that matters in this conversation, but please don't ask me to defend your venue. It is what it is, and I happen to think it's a mess -- let's leave it at that." Well, let's disagree on this. I have been posting here for over 2 years and by the way have been banned twice and put on moderation another time. As I have said I think some of the bannings are too quick but I never saw one for objecting to ID and asking embarrassing questions. Quite the contrary, I have seen many anti ID posters get banned after they become frustrated with their inability to make their case and then they resort to ad hominems. A year and a half ago two from ASA, David Opderbeck and George Murphy, were banned because they made disparaging remarks about Denyse O'Leary and the people here. The exchanges are still posted and can be read. A third member of ASA claims he was banned but I never saw the exact exchange that led to it. This is Rich Blinne. Here is the comment that got George Murphy banned "I don’t think you guys realize how insular your discussions are. This blog as a whole reminds me of a bunch of kids playing D & D. It may be a fun & harmless way to spend a Saturday afternoon, but it’s kind of sad if they think that it has anything to do with the real world." This is after we asked George Murphy over a dozen times to discuss science and not theology. He just pointed us to Ken Miller who we have no respect for. You could see George Murphy getting frustrated here because we would not discuss the theological underpinnings of ID.jerry
June 29, 2008
June
06
Jun
29
29
2008
05:03 PM
5
05
03
PM
PDT
Steve Matheson, I will try to post your reply in stages to see what may have caused the filter to stop your post. Let me start with your comment on the design is the question comment. "I think design is the question, and you think it's the answer." Here, basically, is what I mean. In your first paragraph, you note that you and others here "do not believe there is any naturalistic mechanism that can explain macro evolution or the origin of life," and so you "opt for design events as the only answer." Design, for you, is the answer, and the question was how did these biological systems come about? In between, we find your conclusion that the phenomena in question cannot be explained naturalistically. I start with the same question: how did these biological systems come about? At the same time, I notice design, "purposeful arrangement of parts," even "prodigies of nature." As I already mentioned in my first post here, I'm quite happy discussing design, and completely reject the suggestion that design has no place in science. Baloney! Design is what we're trying to understand. Design is the question. Here is this biosphere, filled with mind-blowing nanomachines and indescribably intricate processes. Do we need a mathematically-inclined philosopher to coax the specter of "design" out of modern probabilistic theories? Do we need an underinformed biochemist to locate "design" through analysis of mutation rates in Plasmodium falciparum? Good heavens, no. It's right there; it's everywhere. Detecting design, for me, is almost effortless, natural, automatic. (Consider the vocabulary of cell biology, which we can further discuss later.) And so I identify "design" as the very thing I'm trying to understand. My question becomes how did all of this design come about? I think, then, that we can identify at least two crucial ways in which our thinking diverges. First, design for you is the stuff you use to fill explanatory gaps -- it's the answer. For me, it's the thing we seek to understand -- it's the question. Second, you are convinced that "naturalistic" explanation of natural history is not possible. I'm not at all convinced of this, and in fact I expect God's world to be largely amenable to natural explanation. In other words, I expect that naturalistic mechanisms can account for biological evolution, just as I expect that they can account for embryonic development and for, say, autism. Did that answer your question?" I believe you are creating distinctions that do not exist. For example the phrase "design for you is the stuff you use to fill explanatory gaps" No it isn't. We are not necessarily committed to an interactive design event for anything except for possibly the Big Bang. It is an option for why somethings have happened, nothing more but seems to be arbitrarily excluded for anything else by nearly everyone in the scientific community. What we are arguing against is the elimination of an intelligent input to "what appears to be designed" as a possible mechanism. There are a lot of people who support ID who would be quite comfortable with a naturalistic mechanism for OOL and all of macro evolution. What we see is seemingly intractable problems with each so have opted for an intelligent input as a viable option. Many of us would be quite welcome to such an explanation. But what we find to explain a lot of phenomena are incoherent explanations and massaging of data that don't hold up under scrutiny. What is presented as slam dunks are really quite iffy explanations. I have mentioned I am reading Keith Miller's anthology on evolution and so far in the first 100 pages see nothing to contradict the position that there could have been a direct intervention at some time or other. Loren Haarsma would prefer that such a solution did not exist for reasons I agree with but admitted it should be a possibility. If you have time over the next several months to discuss these issues with some of us here, then I believe we could all benefit. I believe you will find that many of us are not inflexible and have no pre determined commitment to any specific explanation. For my self I always believed that Darwin's ideas made sense but did not know that much about them to think critically on what they entailed. In the last 9 years I have spent a lot of time reading about it from all sides and see an amazing consistency on what is presented and it is not very supportive of neo Darwinism for anything more than micro evolution. I will see if this posts and then try another section of your original post. Thanks for the time of your response.jerry
June 29, 2008
June
06
Jun
29
29
2008
04:13 PM
4
04
13
PM
PDT
Steve Matheson, I tried to post your comment after copying it directly from your site and it did not post. There must be some word or phrase that did not make it past the filter.jerry
June 29, 2008
June
06
Jun
29
29
2008
03:44 PM
3
03
44
PM
PDT
As I have stated in the past, Theistic evolutionits can be a perfectly legitimate and logical in their position if they will simply acknowledge that an internal principle guides the process, which can be Darwinian like without being Darwinian. Pure Darwinism rejects the internal principle on the grounds that is teleological. That is precisely why its advocates militate against ID. ID implies the INTENT behind the evolutionary process, and the TEs(the ones we are complaining about) will have none of it. So, my question to Steve Matheson is a simple one: Do you accept the internal guiding principle of don't you? Does evolution have a goal or doesn't it? Miller, Collins et al say, in concert with their neo-Darwinist friends, that it doesn't? That is what makes them hostile to ID. Each time we get down to wire on these matters, the discussion stops. Why is that?StephenB
June 29, 2008
June
06
Jun
29
29
2008
05:23 AM
5
05
23
AM
PDT
Steve Matheson (#76): Thanks for your posting. Let me clarify a few more things: 1. Just so you know where I personally am coming from: I am not a YEC, an OEC, an evangelical Christian, or a fundamentalist Christian. I don’t want creationism forced into the schools. I don’t want ID forced into the schools. I think the Dover Trial verdict was right (even though the Judge’s uniformed rantings about ID, science and theology were unnecessary and largely wrong). Nor do I have a mission to promote orthodox Christianity (though I do have a mission of intellectual clarification, i.e., to challenge people who are speaking heresy and pretending it’s orthodox Christianity, which, e.g., Miller undeniably does). Further, I have nothing against Darwinian theory per se, provided it’s not regarded as dogma. I’ve made a point of reading a great deal of Darwin, and I actually admire him much more than any of his modern defenders, whether Neo-Darwinian or TE. I think his explanation of origins is far from adequate, but I find him scrupulously honest about admitting countervailing evidence (something that modern neo-Darwinists seem to have a great deal of trouble doing); further, his civilized tone ought to (but doesn’t) put many of his nasty and belligerent modern groupies to shame. 2. My position is similar to that of Behe in Edge of Evolution. That is, I have no serious problem with the notion of common descent; I admit a role for both natural selection and mutations in generating species, and possibly higher divisions; but I doubt the capacity of neo-Darwinian mechanisms to produce complex new organs and body plans, both on theoretical grounds and on the grounds of the massive lack of evidence that such mechanisms can produce anything other than minor evolutionary changes. I am capable of defending this position at quite a high level, if need be, but this is not the place for such detailed argumentation. For now, let me say only that my reasons for these positions are scientific and philosophical, and have zero to do with religion. If you are looking for a parallel to my position, think Antony Flew. Like Flew, I was a one time a Darwinist; it was the evidence, looked at in the light of philosophy, that convinced me of the reality of design in nature. 3. You have a lot of anger against this site, based on past postings you have seen on it. Keep in mind that I am not the incarnation of UD. This is the first time I have ever written a column for it. I cannot be made responsible for every comment that has been made on it over the years. 4. Yes, I have seen here, from time to time, comments that are overly partisan in the sense of being utterly uncritical of ID or harshly accusatory against TE. I have tried not to imitate them, but, being human, I too may have slipped now and then into a polarizing manner of speaking. 5. You perhaps have missed many of the discussions on UD where some ID proponents and some YECs have engaged in quite heated debate. The picture you are presenting, of ID proponents and YECs as going together like hand and glove, is far from the case. 6. I am quite willing to agree that all TEs cannot be treated the same. (I think I said that at least once already!) I have focused my critique of TE on, shall we say, the more vocal and famous (or notorious) advocates of that line of thought. There may be a hundred moderate and reasonable (but silent) TE people for every one of those that I have named. If so, I wish they would post more often on this site, explaining their TE position, and not merely defensively, but set forth as a positive position, explaining how it sits with respect to (1) pure Darwinism; (2) God’s mode of interaction with nature; and (3) the question whether design in nature is detectable. If we ID people could see TE set forth as a positive proposition, rather simply as a set of aggressive attacks upon ID and YEC, we might find that we have more in common with it than we think. I leave it up to you and your colleagues to offer to us this sort of positive account of TE. 7. However, since you are concerned about abusive treatment, I’d like to put the case of Michael Behe to you. Here is a complete gentleman who tries to take the high road in argument, who never initiates ad hominem exchanges, and who is admitted even by his foes to be a nice human being. I have read both of his books with extreme care. They are not polemical books. Yet, for writing these books, Behe has been abusively treated literally everywhere: by the journalistic establishment, by the members of his own department, by the self-appointed guardians of “science” among both NDEs and TEs (I have seen Ruse and Lamoureux angrily and condescendingly tag-team against him), by smart-aleck grad students egged on by their professors, by bloggers everywhere, by reviewers on Amazon, by Wikipedia writers, etc., etc. In some cases, what has come from these people’s mouths is unfair; in other cases, rude; in other cases, vile. Yet I haven’t seen any prominent (or non-prominent) TEs speak against this abuse of Behe. When they aren’t putting in a bit of abuse themselves (especially Miller), they are sitting on the sidelines, while the mainstream press, the NCSE, and the atheist lobby crucifies the man. I am reminded of the saying that all that it takes for evil to triumph is for enough good men to sit and do nothing. Being a Christian requires standing up against injustice. I am not asking TEs to agree with Behe about his science. But it would be nice, if once, just once, in a major secular medium (New York Times, New Republic, National Review, etc.) a respected TE stood up and said: “I don’t agree with Dr. Behe about evolution, but the behavior of some of my Darwinian colleagues, including some Christian Darwinian colleagues, has been nothing short of barbaric, and the verbal form of their “defense of science” has in fact brought science into disrepute, and has embarrassed me personally as both Christian and scientist. In particular, I call upon the Biology Chair of the University of Minnesota at Morris to discipline P.Z. Myers for vulgarity and polemics unbecoming a serious scientist, and I call upon Coyne, Ruse, Dawkins and others to apologize for the mean-spirited elements in their reviews of Behe’s books.” When has a TE ever done this? If you register my point and agree with me, you could start by acknowledging, here and now, that Behe has been treated shabbily and that your TE comrades have done very little in a public way to address this. I would be much more sympathetic with your complaints about abuses against TEs by UD posters if you would show more concern about the much more public abuses wrought upon Michael Behe (and, mutatis mutandis, upon many other leading proponents of ID, and even upon sympathetic neutrals). 8. I understand your point about the ambiguity of the word “Darwinism”, and I understand why TEs might not want to publically criticize “Darwinism”, for fear that the public might think they are abandoning “evolution” (i.e., common descent) entirely. But this is easily handled. They can do exactly what Behe does in Edge of Evolution, i.e., define exactly what they mean by evolution and by Darwinian mechanisms, and state exactly how “theistic evolution” differs from the Darwinian variety. It might also help if they acknowledged places where they AGREE with ID theory AGAINST “pure Darwinism”. If they are concerned about “not being misunderstood”, as you say, surely it would be a major blow against public misunderstanding to make it clear that there is a 3-way disagreement (ID vs. NDE vs. TE), not just a 2-way one (ID vs. “science”, where "science" is represented by both NDE and TE). The latter is the impression TE writers often convey. 9. As for your last paragraph, I thank you very much for it, and applaud your intentions.Thomas Cudworth
June 28, 2008
June
06
Jun
28
28
2008
10:08 PM
10
10
08
PM
PDT
Steve Matheson, First off, let me commend you. I really consider your position regarding TEs to be very similar to what I've argued here in the past, and you argue rationally and deliberately. It's refreshing to see. But let me say something in the defense of ID, both in general and on this site. I'd agree that 'Darwinism' (among others in this debate) is a slippery term that needs to be well-defined before being discussed. And naturally I'd agree that 'Darwinism' itself tends to be spiked with a whole lot of metaphysics, and that it's trivial (and important) to make the distinction between science and philosophy. But this confusion did not start with ID proponents, or even YECs. It's been going on for quite awhile now, and purposefully so - and I find it hard, even as a TE (Though I've been told I qualify as an IDer for making the same distinctions you do) to fully blame the ID movement for reacting so strongly to a concept that has been purposefully... I'd say well-poisoned. I'm sure mistakes are made, and I certainly have my disagreements with both tone and specific claims at times. What it comes down to for me is this. I'm very glad that you're taking the tone and measures you are in this thread. It needs to happen far more often. But at the same time, I hope you understand that this 'culture war' is a very recent development, and came after decades of relatively uninterrupted and unquestioned mixes of science with anti-theistic philosophy. And frankly, I don't think that a tame-tongued, polite, but still forceful ID movement would result in a lot of the hostility of the opposition going away (Though it would certainly be welcome - there is no need to divide IDers and TEs unnecessarily). What is many times being defended IS the mix of metaphysics and science as science purely. For all the talk of 'defending science', I strongly feel that some scientists and certainly many saber rattlers are more concerned about defending their own abuses of science.nullasalus
June 28, 2008
June
06
Jun
28
28
2008
04:24 PM
4
04
24
PM
PDT
Steve Matheson, (76) There are some of us (see comment 54) in ID-land who agree that a blanket charge of such things as TE's in general being "spineless appeasers" is unwarranted, and are willing to say so publicly.Paul Giem
June 28, 2008
June
06
Jun
28
28
2008
03:43 PM
3
03
43
PM
PDT
Thomas @70: First a note to all: I attempted to post a response to jerry here last night, but it hasn't gone up and I don't know why. You can read it at my blog, but I hope we'll get it up here soon. I think I will let this be my last word on the topic of randomness and how various TEs handle it, and I'll try to keep it brief. But if there's something specific you'd like me to address, by all means point it out. You have made it quite clear, I think, what you want "TEs" to do. But you have failed to convince me that this is anything but completely trivial, and I have judged your complaint to be unimportant. To summarize my own position: Darwin's "mechanism" was natural selection acting on random variation. Darwin, without any scientific or metaphysical support, added non-teleology to his mechanism, and the result is something that you and I seem to agree to call "Darwinism." Christians, we agree, can't embrace that thing we're calling "Darwinism." (Non-Christians, even non-theists, might choose to reject "Darwinism" for the same reasons, namely that it incorporates unjustified metaphysical pronouncements that don't add explanatory force.) But since Darwin added his metaphysical proviso without justification, and since the proviso does no explanatory work, it can (and should) be removed as unceremoniously as it was added. The consequences of this move are of course not trivial, but the move itself is completely trivial. Again, I don't speak for any of those other folks, but I surmise that one reason they don't provide the disclaimers you desire is that they, like me, are concerned that they will be misunderstood. The term "Darwinism" is, in my opinion, very often deliberately meant to confuse. In our conversation here, it's gone well, but only because I made it very clear, right from the beginning, what I meant by "Darwinism." This distinction is rarely made clear, but it's hugely important. Without it, a person reading your post, referring to our agreement "that the Darwinian mechanism is at least partly wrong," might reasonably conclude that I am unconvinced of the explanatory power of natural selection acting on random variation. Perhaps because I'm a scientist, I can barely imagine interpreting "the Darwinian mechanism" in any other way. But that's what you and I have done here. The potential for misunderstanding is significant, and I haven't even factored in the ID movement's fondness for martial rhetoric and propaganda. And Thomas, I do not take seriously your comments about people like Francis Collins "poisoning the public discourse in the country." It's not that I think Ken Miller is right about everything (hardly), or that I think Collins hasn't missed some pitches. No, the basic problem is that your movement has no moral credibility with me. You are speaking from within a blog that represents everything I loathe about the movement. You are whining about "hostility" in a blog that revels in the belligerent taunting of my colleagues and that breezily describes people like me as "spineless appeasers," "Neville Chamberlains," or "dhimmis" while asserting that we have entered a "pact with the Devil." Your movement's contempt for evolutionary creation has been communicated all too clearly, and if I were you I'd be much more focused on building and maintaining scholarly relationships with those who are willing to be responsible critics, or even on forcefully disclaiming your movement's many abuses of science and scientists, than I would be on feigning victimhood in a culture war in which you are enthusiastic participants. I am committed to working hard at maintaining collegiality in discussions with folks like you and StephenB and jerry, in my role as "friendly critic." But if you want me to be a friend, you'll have to change your approach significantly. At the very least, you should re-examine my original post, regarding some very important problems I have with your movement, and consider whether the conversation is going in the right direction. But lest you think I'm not listening: yes, you can count on me to criticize bogus or unfair arguments by TEs, and yes, I think there are times when interesting discussions of design and God's action are lost in the fog of culture war.Steve Matheson
June 28, 2008
June
06
Jun
28
28
2008
10:11 AM
10
10
11
AM
PDT
Note to UD Admin @74: my first 3 comments were moderated, and it was the delayed appearance of that third comment that caused Thomas (comment #66) to get the impression that I had moved our discussion to my own blog. So you should check your procedures; they clearly don't work as you claim.Steve Matheson
June 27, 2008
June
06
Jun
27
27
2008
09:38 AM
9
09
38
AM
PDT
Thomas: Heh. My comment on moderation-induced delays appeared immediately. I guess I've been promoted. Woo hoo! [Tips hat to moderator.] The first comment from a new user is automatically moderated by Wordpress. After the first comment is approved subsequent comments are automatically not moderated unless an administrator intervenes for some reason. -UD AdminSteve Matheson
June 27, 2008
June
06
Jun
27
27
2008
08:51 AM
8
08
51
AM
PDT
Thomas @66: As long as my posts are sent through moderation, they will be out of sync with yours and with my blog, neither of which are similarly held up by the magistrate. (I do most of my bloggy work at night, perhaps after he/she/they have gone offline.) You can be assured that I would not move the conversation without notice and/or consent. In the meantime, if you find the delay annoying, talk to the moderator.Steve Matheson
June 27, 2008
June
06
Jun
27
27
2008
08:49 AM
8
08
49
AM
PDT
Sorry, I meant that Christian Darwinists use the language of teleology while arguing on behalf of NON-teleology.StephenB
June 27, 2008
June
06
Jun
27
27
2008
06:55 AM
6
06
55
AM
PDT
Steve Matheson: I appreciate the fact that you clarify your points and define your objections in meaningful terms. As one politician once remarked of another, “I think I can do business with this man.” Also, your summary of the scientific theories were excellent and most edifying. None of us, as far as I can tell, are suggesting that Christian Darwinists are Christian atheists, so I am not sure where you are going with that. In effect, they are Christians who unwittingly embrace an atheist system, which, of course, is not the same thing. To believe that natural forces can create the illusion of design is to believe in an atheistic formulation. It is the alternative view that God was responsible for the design. As I stated earlier, Christian Darwinists use the language of teleology, while arguing on behalf of teleology. This is why they contradict themselves so often. Let me provide three quick examples of the kind of double-mindedness that I am talking about. KEN MILLER In Finding Darwin’s God: Mankind is “not the inevitable result of evolution”…”is an afterthought”…”a minor detail, a happenstance in a history that might as well have left us out.” (Our appearance here was most unlikely---a lucky break.) In Just A Theory: “But as life reexplored adaptive space, could we be certain that our niche would not be occupied? I would argue that we could be almost certain that it would be — that eventually evolution would produce an intelligent, self-aware, reflective creature endowed with a nervous system large enough to solve the very same questions that we have, and capable of discovering the very process that produced it, the process of evolution.” (Our appearance here was inevitable) FRANCIS COLLINS On the one hand, Collins insists that a DNA molecule exhibits “The language of God.” This is all very inspiring and illuminating, or so it would seem. Later on, however, he informs us that, in keeping with Darwin, that the design of life is only an illusion, or, to put it another way, design is not detectable. So, now we have a strange doctrine indeed, which gives us first the good news and then the bad news. The good news is that God has provided us with a language in nature. The bad news is that the language doesn’t communicate anything. DENIS LAMOUREUX “I believe that God created life, including humanity, through an ordained and sustained evolutionary process, which even reflects intelligent design. God created through a designed evolutionary process.” (The design produced the process) Theism “Intelligent design could emerge through an evolutionary process in the same way that it is manifested through an embryological process in the creation of a beautiful baby bearing God’s Image. Intelligent design could emerge through an evolutionary process in the creation of a beautiful baby bearing God’s image.” (The process produced the design) Darwinism *In defense of Lamoureux, he does state explicitly that design is real, which does separate him from the other two. Further, he agrees that the Biblical view of creation confirms the point that God’s handiwork has been made manifest. That means, or should mean, that we can detect design. But then we have to wonder what that means. Like Stephen Barr, he suggests that the design is inherent in the evolutionary process. Barr, though, at least realizes that a design that emerges from a process can only be an “apparent” design, just as Darwin came to realize it. Lamoureux, on the other hand, seems to believe that a design that emerges from a process is detectable, and real, which is untenable. Imagine saying that, “the blueprint of my house emerged from the construction.” Consider the prospect of an artist’s conception emerging from his painting. Things don’t work that way. Obviously, the design must ALWAYS precede the process, just as form must always precede matter, just as the information in a DNA molecule must always precede the pattern of its nucleotides. So, in the end, Lamoureux is just a confused as his colleagues.StephenB
June 27, 2008
June
06
Jun
27
27
2008
06:50 AM
6
06
50
AM
PDT
Steve Matheson: Thanks for continuing to post here. I do think I should reply to some of your comments, and the reply has to be longish: 1. I am aware that no theistic evolutionist is so stupid as to think that Christians can also be atheists. You are, however, being unjust toward my intention. Many Christian writers on “theology and science”, including many TEs, are well-trained only in the sciences; often they are not trained to a high level in theological reasoning (Miller and Collins certainly are not), or in philosophical reasoning (which is often necessary to follow theological reasoning). So it is quite possible that a sincere Christian could unknowingly and unwittingly adopt premises which, though not explicitly atheistic, are implicitly atheistic. One goal of my posting was draw out the implications of pure Darwinism for those TEs who think that pure Darwinism and pure Christianity are compatible. If you are already enlightened enough to have realized this, then my article was not for you, but I don’t think you should begrudge it to those whose level of logical and metaphysical reasoning has not yet reached yours, and who may still be entertaining contradictory positions. 2. We agree that the Darwinian mechanism is at least partly wrong. However, this admission is not, as you say, trivial. If it were trivial, no one would need to fudge about it. Yet neither Miller nor Collins nor Ayala nor Lamoureux, to my knowledge, ever explicitly states what you and I have just agreed upon. They thus leave the impression (even if it is not exactly what they believe) that you can simply incorporate the Darwinian mechanism into theistic evolution as the tool which God used to create living things. I think they should not leave this impression. I would like to hear clearer statements concerning not just where they AGREE with the Darwinian mechanism, but where they DISAGREE with it. 3. Regarding your reference to Collins. I will give you a partial retraction: Collins is at least aware of the potential theological problem. However, his answer to the problem is neither firm nor ultimately helpful. Let’s look at the phrasing (emphasis added) of his alternative to the “chance” interpretation: “IF God is outside of nature...”; “God COULD also know every detail of the future”; “evolution COULD appear to us to be driven by chance, but from God’s perspective the outcome WOULD be entirely specified”. Why all the hypothetical language from a committed Christian theologian? Doesn’t sound like he’s fully persuaded of his own counter-interpretation to “chance” to me. But let’s say he is; let’s say that it’s just Collins’s style that’s unclear here, and that he really means to say, more firmly: “Evolution APPEARS to be driven by chance, but its outcomes ARE SPECIFIED by God.” In that case he would be a traditional orthodox theologian, affirming the complete and providential control of God over all that occurs. But what then? That’s exactly what I addressed in the second part of my article – the part on which you haven’t commented much. In the second part I show that if you really believe that, then you believe in design “at a distance”, as opposed to design “on site”, but you still believe in design. That would mean that TEs, or at least, TEs who follow Collins, are “intelligent design” theorists of a sort, who have a particular evolutionary account of how the design got into nature. And I’ve said clearly that I don’t find that position either illogical or un-Christian. On the other hand, this position of Collins does not explain (1) why he should think that design is not detectable in nature by scientific means; (2) why he, like Miller and others, should go after ID people with a determination almost as great as the determination with which he goes after YECs. What is he so hot and bothered about, if an ID person says: “I think nature is designed, I think you can see the design, and I think God put it there”? Why the hostility? And why is he endorsing Ken Miller’s new book, lending his prestige as head of the Human Genome Project to a book that he knows is even more concerned with savaging ID than it is with savaging YECs? You don’t seem to be catching the polemical subtext that’s going on here. These guys have a visceral dislike of ID that’s not adequately explained by any theoretical differences they have with many of the ID theorists. And that visceral dislike is poisoning the public discourse in the country, especially when it comes from celebrated figures like Collins and Miller. They are egging on the culture wars, not helping them. If you dislike the culture wars, you should be trying to rein in these guys, your fellow biologists. You can phone or write or e-mail them, and ask them to be less angry, less polemical, and less inclined to impute theocratic political plots to ID theorists; you can also ask them to stop posing as theologians and to focus exclusively on the scientific arguments for and against design. Can we count on your help in this regard? 4. Regarding Lamoureux: I have read the article which you cite. I have no problem with most of it. He does say what you say. But that’s only half of what I want to hear. He nowhere in the article repudiates or even qualifies the Darwinian mechanism, and thus he leaves the impression that the Darwinian mechanism is not only sufficient to explain biological reality, but is entirely consistent with the orthodox Christian theological position which he defends. I’m not satisfied. 5. Regarding Miller: He said explicitly on the PBS special on evolution, which post-dates Finding Darwin’s God, that he was both an orthodox Christian and an orthodox Darwinist. This quotation was used to great effect in the propaganda surrounding the Dover Trial. Use Google and you’ll find the phrase easily. As for the passage you cite from FDG, it proves my point: he solves the problem about “chance” by asserting an entirely private theology (the technical term for that is “heresy”), a theology built upon ideas cobbled from Ian Barbour and whoever else takes his fancy. My whole point was that if you stick with orthodox Darwinism, your Christian theology has to give at some point. This doesn’t bother Miller. And in fact, it doesn’t bother me; Miller can be as heretical as he wishes, as long as he stops misleading both Catholics and the secular public by saying that it is possible to be 100% Darwinian and 100% orthodox. If he’d just admit that he’s winging it, and making up his own theology as he goes along, that would clear the air sufficiently. 6. Regarding Ayala: Both Ayala and Miller have explicitly argued that they want to save God from being responsible for the problem of evil by taking God completely out of the business of creating living forms; if impersonal “nature” creates living things through evolution, they argue, God’s hands can be kept clean. But (and here again the logical and metaphysical amateurism of TEs shows through) that could only be true if nature were completely autonomous, which again would be a Christian heresy. In the orthodox view, if evolution occurs, God must ultimately be behind it; God is therefore also responsible for evil, at least, for all the organic evil which attends evolution. (We’ll leave aside for the moment the evil for which human beings are responsible.) You will find the references to Ayala and Miller, and Behe’s able counter-argument, on Behe’s Amazon.com Edge of Evolution discussion site.Thomas Cudworth
June 27, 2008
June
06
Jun
27
27
2008
03:10 AM
3
03
10
AM
PDT
Okay, I was too generous to Miller. I just watched the Colbert Report clip again. He clearly says ID's relabeled "Creationism", so he's directly involved in shoving the label "Creationists" down the throats of ID proponents, regardless of their stipulations. If his point on the Colbert report was that the Bible is not scientifically accurate (but spiritually so) and that Augustine recognized that Genesis wasn't Science, isn't that only an answer to someone claiming that Genesis was Science? Isn't that an answer only to Biblical literalism? I'm a quasi-literalist, fideistic fence-sitter on whether ID is Science, but I don't notice a whole lot of implications for Genesis in "Specified Complexity" or the argument why if nature exhibits a design through such a principle, it implies God made man from dust and set him in a garden. Ken, I guess I can leave the Science to Scientists, but you got to leave the argument to somebody who knows how to argue. However, in your closed-off little cloister world where everything makes sense to the initiates, it shouldn't affect decisions in the popular arena other than by sound general arguments and not appeals to some hidden esoterica--which for various reasons, I'm not privy to--lest the spirits get angry choke off the flow of technological goodies (which never relied on changing body forms in the first place).jjcassidy
June 27, 2008
June
06
Jun
27
27
2008
12:53 AM
12
12
53
AM
PDT
Steve Matheson, Three things: I hope you stick around because it would be great to have someone like you with which to discuss both biology and evolution. In general nearly all of us here do not believe there is any naturalistic mechanism that can explain macro evolution or the origin of life. That is why we opt for design events as the only answer for what I believe are truly mysteries. As a starter you said "and Behe’s work in TEoE is disastrously flawed" Discussion of this would be an eye opener for us because we believe no one has laid a hand on his arguments just as we believe no one has every really answered his examples of Irreducible Complexity. Second, on your blog the commentators made a big deal out of your comment "I think design is the question, and you think it’s the answer." I am not sure I understand what this means. Maybe you could expand on this. Are you asking why are things designed, how are things designed, if things are designed, who is the designer, etc. What is the question you allude to. If it is some place else, I missed it. Third, I have disagreed with some of the bannings from this site but in general most who have been banned have made some seriously negative ad hominems or continued in some persistent pattern of non response or continued irrelevant arguments. I have never seen anyone banned because they offered embarrassing questions or just because they disagreed with the trend of thought. You mentioned Ted Davis. He appeared here last week and was treated very cordially even though his comments on ASA indicated he thought he may not be. I hope he returns often because the dialog should be fruitful just as I expect it will be fruitful with you if you continue to post here periodically. Especially if it is on the science of evolution or any other area of biology we could benefit from.jerry
June 26, 2008
June
06
Jun
26
26
2008
11:28 PM
11
11
28
PM
PDT
I think that Steve M. gave some real food for thought. But the linked Miller's post is over simplistic. Okay, he rejects the term "theistic evolutionist" because chemists don't have to endure the same indignity. There's nothing more to it. However, nobody successfully argued that Priestly's or Lavoisier's developments on oxygen made God unnecessary. Boyle's Law wasn't heralded as a death knell either. Obviously a number of parties to the French Revolution thought the notion of God was old fashioned--and in comparison to the progress of Science, less promising. But that was simply a soft rejection. In addition, there's no "Theory of Chemistry". There's nothing about chemistry to support. Chemistry is not an explanation about past events, but a field, a collection of theories and patterns explaining repeatable phenomena. In fact, nothing is Chemistry unless the precise macro or micro effect is repeatable--not just explainable by expansion on every single fact that could point the way to it. Besides, Ken Miller can be described as a "theistic evolutionist" not by practice. But it is a decent attempt to describe his worldview. Nobody seriously argues that they believe (or have no doubt) that Chemistry and God are compatible behind the scenes. So although there are numerous theists who are chemists, the idea of "Theistic Chemist" can't crack anyone's threshold of concepts striking enough to name. However there are a number of atheists and theists who don't think that evolution is reconcilable with God. So such a contrast is stipulated by a term. There's a difference, like it or not. But of course the most interesting thing is that the headline reads "Ken Miller Is Not a 'Theistic Evolutionist'". So it's a fact. Why? Because Miller himself says so, with the light dismissal I analyze above. So, the argument is Miller is not it because he stipulates so. See Jesus gave us this principle called The Golden Rule. Nixon was not "not a crook" because he stipulated so. We fall into certain categories regardless of stipulation. The opponents of ID call ID-ists "creationists" because they believe that ID-ists fall into this category. And they don't care how many of the ID camp have stipulated that they are not 1) religious or 2) they are not creationists. But if Ken Miller's breeziest of stipulations can be taken at face value, then we ought to at least hear ID-ists out on their own self-definitions. Miller needs to at least acknowledge the fact that there is a vehement resistance to the validity or relevance of self-definition which has been characteristic of the rules of this game. But it doesn't appear that there's even a hint of that consideration from either Miller or the writer. People on the theo-evo side need to become serious on having all parties heard on their own terms--or at the very least understand why they just can't just parry labels cast upon them with a Carlin-esque question.jjcassidy
June 26, 2008
June
06
Jun
26
26
2008
11:12 PM
11
11
12
PM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Leave a Reply