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Theistic Evolutionists, Your Position Is Incoherent — But We Can Help You!

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In this, my first column for Uncommon Descent, I’d like to address what seems to be a fundamental contradiction running through the writings of many “theistic evolutionists,” and propose an adjustment to their theoretical framework.
 
Critics of theistic evolution (TE) have often suggested that theistic evolutionists (TEs) have to put themselves through mental contortions in order to remain Christian while embracing Darwin.  Yet a person very well versed in TE literature has informed me that many TEs do not appear to feel any such intellectual discomfort.  They reconcile Christianity and Darwin, he suggests, by holding to an “old earth creationist” position, by interpreting Genesis non-literally, and by treating evolution as God’s “creation tool.” 
 
The first two points are non-controversial.  There is plenty of room within orthodox Christianity for the belief that the earth is very old, and for less-than-completely-literal interpretations of Genesis.  However, the proposition that evolution could be “God’s creation tool” is open to more than one interpretation, and bears closer examination.  Given that most TEs appear to be strict Darwinists with respect to the mechanism of evolution (i.e., chance mutations plus natural selection), critical observers are justified in inquiring about the suitability of the Darwinian mechanism as a “creation tool” for a specifically Christian God.

I would not have a problem understanding evolution as God’s “creation tool,” if TEs conceived of evolution as a “tool” in the strict sense.  A tool in the strict sense is fully in the control of the tool-user, and the results it achieves (when properly used by a competent user) are not due to chance but to intelligence and skill.  But Darwin’s mechanism leaves room for neither intelligence nor skill; it is the unconscious operation of impersonal natural selection upon mutations which are the products of chance.  It follows that Darwinian evolution is not a tool, but an autonomous process, and therefore out of God’s control.
 
This has a theological consequence.  If evolution is out of God’s control, it is incompatible with the notion of providence — the notion that God provides for the future needs of the earth and its inhabitants.  God can hardly, for example, provide for the need of Hagar in the desert, if he can’t even guarantee that the human race, of which Hagar is a member, will ever emerge from the primordial seas.  (The radical contingency of the Darwinian mechanism is captured well by Darwinist Stephen Jay Gould, when he wrote that if the tape of evolution were rewound and played again, the results would be entirely different.  Once God sets a truly Darwinian process in motion, he has no control over whether it will produce Adam and Eve, a race of pointy-eared Vulcans, or just an ocean full of bacteria.)
 
A non-providential God is clearly not an orthodox Christian God, and it therefore appears that theistic evolutionism generates heretical Christianity.  As I see it, the only way for theistic evolutionists to escape this consequence is to argue that mutations seem like chance events from the human perspective, but from God’s perspective are foreordained.  But in that case, “evolution” is really just the actualization of a foreseen design over a very long time frame; the “purely natural causes” spoken of by the TEs are really just the unrecognized fingertips of the very long arm of God.  This view, which we might call “apparent Darwinism,” fails to get God out of the process of natural causation, which was (as Cornelius Hunter has argued) Darwinism’s historical raison d’être.
 
In response to this, TEs could say:  “Well, we are Christians, so of course we believe that these apparently chance events were divinely foreordained and therefore are not ultimately chance events.  Our goal is not to deny the ultimate agency of God, but only to establish that the design of living things, though certainly in the mind of God at the beginning of the world’s creation, is not humanly DETECTABLE, as the ID proponents say it is.  Evolution proceeds as if directed by chance; neither our sense nor our instruments are capable of registering the difference between mutations produced by the hidden hand of God and mutations produced by chance.  Operationally, science must proceed as if chance alone is at work.  There is therefore no legitimately scientific design inference.  Design is a theological interpretation of the natural data, not a scientific one.  And that is why we remain theistic evolutionists, appealing to strictly Darwinian causation in our science and keeping our theological interpretation of nature out of the labs, schools and universities.”
 
This has surface plausibility.  But note that, if this argument is accepted, there is no longer any metaphysical difference between TE and ID.  Given this argument, both ID and TE acknowledge that living creatures are in fact designed by God and brought into being exactly in accord with God’s will.  The difference that remains between TE and ID is not over metaphysics but over epistemology, i.e., over the question:  How do we KNOW that the flagellum or the wing of a bird or the circulatory system is a consequence of design rather than chance?  And here is where TE takes its final stand:  it is only by faith, not by the scientific study of nature, that we can know this.
 
But how does TE verify this doctrine?  Surely the question whether design detection can be an empirical science is itself subject to empirical investigation, and cannot be prematurely settled by any dogmatic pronouncement.  TE is thus obliged to look at the work of those who claim that design detection can be an empirical science, and to consider that claim on its merits, not dismiss it out of hand.  It thus must engage the arguments of Dembski, Behe, etc.  TE is of course free to argue that Dembski and Behe and the others fail to provide an adequate basis for a science of design detection, by pointing to real or alleged flaws in their arguments.  But this still means that TE must abandon a priori epistemological declarations and enter whole-heartedly into the honest consideration of whether design in nature is detectable by scientific means.
 
Thus, we see that the foundational contradiction at the very core of TE (that orthodox Christianity is 100% true, and that the Darwinian mechanism is also 100% true), puts TEs on the horns of a dilemma.  Accept the complete truth of the Darwinian mechanism, and one must deny at least one key Christian doctrine, i.e., providence.  Alternately, accept the complete truth of all the core Christian doctrines, including providence, and “chance” is a fiction, Darwinism is a guided process, there is design, and design may in principle be detectable.  TEs thus have a choice.  If their priority, their most important motivation, is to ban the notion of design from science, they can do so, by affirming that chance rather than providence is ultimately real; the cost is the adoption of a non-Christian theology.  If, on the other hand, their priority is to account for the origin of species and of man within the framework of providence, they must affirm that chance is not ultimately real; the cost is the abandonment of the Darwinian mechanism.   
 
Let me summarize.  It is possible to be a theistic evolutionist without contradiction.  It is possible to be a specifically Christian theistic evolutionist without contradiction.  It is not, however, possible to be a Christian DARWINIST without contradiction.  A Christian Darwinist is bound to maintain logically incompatible positions:  that evolution is both a tool and an autonomous process, that providence and chance are both ultimately real, that design is potentially detectable and that it is a priori indetectable.  This intellectual schizophrenia cannot be maintained.  TEs must decide whether or not their grudge against ID and its proponents is more important to them than the maintenance of a consistently orthodox Christian theology. 
 
TEs, you can join us at no real cost.  You can keep your Christian faith (which incidentally is more highly respected by even non-Christian ID advocates than it is by many of your current colleagues).  You can keep evolution (understood as common descent) and all its evidences, including the fossil record, Darwin’s arguments about biogeographical distribution, and a 4.5-billion-year-old earth.  We don’t even ask you to pledge allegiance to intelligent design; we just ask you to abandon your a priori prejudice that design in nature can’t possibly be detectable, and to join us in investigating the question.   
 
And there’s an added bonus.  You’ll finally be able to abandon the unsavory company of angry, paranoid, condescending atheists like Richard Dawkins, Jerry Coyne, P.Z. Myers, Jeffrey Shallit, and Barbara Forrest.  Talk about the icing on the cake!
 
Think about it.

 

Comments
It’s come to my attention that Steve Matheson has continued posting on this thread on his own blog, Quintessence of Dust. I don’t know why he’s chosen not to continue here; it’s a nuisance for people interested in the discussion to follow the arguments if the debaters are in two different places. To the best of my knowledge, he hasn’t been “kicked off” UD, as he and his comrades at QoD speculated that he might be. (Why would we kick him off? He’s been polite and intelligent, and he’s stuck to the issues.) So Steve, if you are reading this, would you please post your latest substantial replies to StephenB and myself here at UD, so we can do justice to them and reach all our readers?Thomas Cudworth
June 26, 2008
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I'll respond to both Thomas and StephenB here. First, to the moderator: thanks for posting my comments. The discussion has been profitable, and I take it that Thomas and StephenB would agree. Please note that I am mirroring my own contributions on my blog, Quintessence of Dust, and will continue to do that, at least so that others can participate in the conversation. (I don't moderate comments.) In answering both Thomas and StephenB, this post got pretty long, and I would understand if you asked us to move it elsewhere. Just let me know. To Thomas @61: I do think that your statements appear to bracket God's power, but you didn't mean to say that, and I think I see why we're struggling to understand each other here. You discuss "pure Darwinism" and "strict Darwinism" and "the naked Darwinian mechanism." Here you are referring, I gather, to random mutation and natural selection with a further stipulation: that no divine guidance of any kind is involved. (We could substitute 'design' or 'teleology' here and my point would be the same.) And you are, I think, correct in identifying that -ism with Mr. Darwin, as Prof. Hodge so ably demonstrated. Hodge was right: "Darwinism," so defined, is atheism. This may mean that I'm not a Darwinist, but a Grayist. (I would be most pleased to bear that name if I thought anyone else would get the allusion.) The point, though, is this: your criticism of Christians who embrace "Darwinism" only makes sense if those Christians embraced the Darwinism that Hodge railed against, which he correctly identified as atheism. And that means your criticism reduces to this: Christians shouldn't be atheists. I'm struggling to understand why you think so many Christians are that stupid, which we'd have to be in order to embrace the "Darwinism" that you condemn. With all due respect, you should reconsider a line of argument that can only imply abject stupidity (or perhaps evil) on the part of the Christians that you name. For my part as a Christian evolutionist, I'll gladly make the statement you call for: Darwin was indeed "partly wrong" about the "mechanism of evolution," because he insisted on ateleology, with neither scientific nor metaphysical justification. Trivial. So, Thomas, I'm not at all sure who these Christian TEs are who embrace atheistic Darwinism. I'm pretty sure they don't exist. In any case, I'm not one of them, and my intention here at UD is to speak only for myself. With the understanding that I do not seek to speak for others, I will say that I reject your accusation against three of the four Christian scholars you singled out. Francis Collins contradicts you on page 205 of The Language of God; Ken Miller in chapter 8 of Finding Darwin's God, and especially on pp. 238-9; Denis Lamoureux refers explicitly to evolution as a "teleological natural process ordained by God." I don't know Ayala's work on this subject well enough to know where he stands, but I very much doubt that you have gotten him right. Perhaps I have misunderstood you again, but whether you retract your accusations or not, I can't currently take them seriously. My point about atheists was meant only to note that the viciousness of the rhetoric on UD constitutes a major deterrent to me with regard to your movement. I would not count myself among Christians who engage in such practices. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't have lunch with you. I'll even buy. Finally, thanks for making me feel welcome as a "friendly critic." I don't buy your martyr case, and I'm mostly amused by the apocalyptic martial prose, but I also don't doubt that people have been treated unfairly. More importantly, I won't call you a bad scientist or a bad theologian for thinking about design. I may, on the other hand, point to bad science or bad theology (mostly bad science) done in the name of ID, and you and your friends are going to have to do a better job of distinguishing criticism of ID ideas (some of which are spectacularly bad) from diabolical attempts to destroy you and anyone who looks like you. (Bill Dembski botched this badly in his fatwa-like rant from two weeks ago; read it carefully and see if you can understand my disgust.) To StephenB @62: I'm not sure what to do with most of your comments, except to thank your for taking the time to lay out your thoughts and to do it with a measure of respect. Just a few responses, then I'll answer your question at the end. 1. I do not belong to any particular school regarding God's work in the world. Kenosis is interesting -- that's all I said. Your thoughts parallel mine for the most part. I wouldn't go as far as to say that Psalm 19 and Romans 1 imply that "design in nature is detectable," but that might be because I'm suspicious of the word "design" here. I suspect that your claim regarding those scriptural passages is indicative of some very significant differences in outlook between you and I. 2. Your rebuttals of Stephen Barr are interesting and informed, but my purpose in citing his piece was to highlight Aquinas' very clear pronouncements regarding chance and providence. That was all. 3. You write: "God CAN use random events. The problem is, however, TEs insist that God does EVERYTHING that way." Well, StephenB, obviously I'm not a TE. I'm not sure there's any such thing as a Christian TE, by your reckoning, and I'm not sure there's anything more for us to discuss on this particular topic. 4. You asked about the various phenomena I listed as examples of scientific explanations that invoke randomness. Here's a brief overview. a. Axonal pruning is widespread during vertebrate brain development, and is preceded by the overgrowth of axonal projections into a target field. These projections are guided by various mechanisms into that target field, but once there they find themselves in competition with an excess of other axons. These so-called exuberant axonal projections are postulated to fill the target field randomly, meaning that they display no discernible pattern. Pruning (also termed selection for obvious reasons) occurs following competition, which usually involves electrical activity of the axons. Analagous processes are involved in the elimination of excess synapses, and even excess neurons. b. Mammalian females have two X chromosomes, while males have only one. Since gene dosage seems to be adjusted such that one X chromosome is enough for any given cell (which makes sense given that male cells have only one to start with), one of the two X chromosomes in every cell in a female's body is inactivated. (This occurs during early development, and results in the organism becoming a chimera of areas that express the maternal X chromosome and areas that express the paternal version.) Because the exact chromosome that will be chosen in any given cell cannot be predicted, the process is referred to as "random." Evidence in favor of this view comes from the examination of coat color in cats and mice. c. Erosion...the Grand Canyon...think fractals. And meteorites...if I say that meteorites are falling "randomly" onto the earth's surface, would you think I was making an atheistic metaphysical claim? Or would you understand me to be saying that there seems to be no discernible pattern? d. Random (meaning unbiased) fertilization is the basis of Mendelian genetic analysis. If I ask you about the probability of your getting cystic fibrosis based on your parents' known status as carriers, I'm assuming random fertilization. And when geneticists see non-Mendelian inheritance patterns, they don't think "design." e. The genes that encode antibodies (in mammals, at least) are generated by a frenzy of genetic shuffling during embryonic development. The shuffling involves some non-random processes combined with an error-prone process that randomly generates vast combinations of antibody structures. Apparently random processes are ubiquitous in biological systems, especially during development, and I'm a developmental biologist. Is it clear why I'm completely turned off by all the nonsense about random vs. God's work?Steve Matheson
June 26, 2008
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I echo StephenB's thanks to Steve Matheson. It's not often we get polite, articulate TEs here who will take the time to explain their position to us, without rancor against ID supporters. I hope Steve Matheson will always feel welcome to drop in and offer us constructive criticism, even if we give some of his arguments (and some of the arguments of his fellow TEs) a bit of a hard time. The only way we can learn from each other is through positive dialogue like this. For TEs and ID supporters just to sit safely on their own web-sites, preaching to the converted and spending their days in self-congratulation, is a waste of time. Without exchange of ideas, there’s no intellectual growth, and no political healing. As for StephenB's last comments, they are excellent, and make a first-class supplement to my argument. I provided only a bare bone outline of the theological issues at stake; Stephen has provided some important details. I agree with him that, if "chance" is to be worked into a Christian scheme of things, it has to be done through some such distinction as the one he makes between the permissive and the ordained will of God. This would allow for evolution to take some unexpected byways, and thus to contain an element of chance. But the ordained will of God cannot be thwarted, and God's design, in the long run, always overcomes chance. So any evolutionary process proceeding from an orthodox God will in the long run fully realize God's aims, and that means that the evolutionary process overall will be a vehicle for design. Just as Israel is going to escape from Egypt no matter what stalling actions Pharaoh takes, so the human brain, circulatory system, camera eye, etc. are going to have exactly the design God intended no matter what dead ends and detours evolution encounters along the way. Neither Dawkins nor Gould, despite their differences, interprets the evolutionary process as directed in this way. And Miller, if he claims to be 100% Darwinist (as he has claimed), must follow their interpretation, which of course necessarily corrupts his Christian theology. (Perhaps this is why, despite claiming to be a pure Darwinian, he speculates about some very un-Darwinian notions such as God "hiding" behind quantum indeterminacy and subtly influencing things in a way that science cannot detect.) Again, very good post, Stephen. In fact, good posts from pretty well everyone. I've learned from reading them all.Thomas Cudworth
June 26, 2008
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A small correction: Stephen Barr asserts that "design is 'inherent' (not 'built in' as I mistakenly wrote) in the evolutionary process. I don't think the difference matters, however.StephenB
June 26, 2008
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You are one of the few TEs that have come here to make your case, so, for that reason alone, I am grateful for your participation. After reading Thomas Cudworth’s excellent response, I hesitate to comment because I don’t want to distract you from answering his points, which, in my judgment, are more definitive and deserve more attention than mine. Still, I do have a few thoughts. With regard to the theory of “Kenosis,” Van Till uses it to argue against intelligent design. As he puts it, “If the cross does indeed reveal the character of God’s own self, then we will expect to see a similar emptying, a similar self-limitation of God, in all divine activity, including the creation and preservation of the universe.” Even if we accept the premise that kenosis defines God’s creative act, it doesn’t follow that such self giving would manifest itself in a pure, unadulterated naturalistic process. In any case, the concept is far too limiting as a paradigm for creation. Do I believe in “kenosis” as one description of God’s character? Of course, I am a Christian. Do I believe that this attribute should be applied to all of God’s creative acts as suggested by the theory of “functional integrity?” Not at all. God has countless good attributes. He chooses, for example to be intimate with his creatures, a quality that, if applied to creation, would imply intermittent intervention. In point of fact, God does intervene in salvation history and he does it often. We also know that God isn’t laid back, meaning that he pursues man in hopes of bringing him out of bondage. All these and countless other Divine qualities make one thing clear: It is remarkably short sighted to define God by one single attribute and even more short sided to apply this limited perspective to God’s creative act. Indeed, if we are going to take Scripture seriously, we should concentrate on the part that actually does comment on the relationship between God’s creation and our perception of it. Psalm 19 and St. Paul’s letter to the Romans (and other passages) point out that God’s creation has been made “manifest,” meaning that design in nature is detectable. Now, with regard to Stephen Barr’s notion that, according to St.Thomas Aquinas, we must abandon the ID paradigm and embrace the naturalist paradigm. Oh, how I wish people would stop putting words in Aquinas’ mouth and read him with some comprehension. First, let me unload the shocker, and then we will proceed from that point. St. Thomas Aquinas believed that God created each of his creatures whole and complete. In point of fact, he was a young earth creationist. Case closed. I will, however, make one other supplementary point. Aquinas five proofs for the existence of God are obvious indicators that he believes that we can begin with empirical observation and draw design inferences. Not only are his arguments consistent with intelligent design theory, they confirm Scripture’s account that God’s handiwork has been made evident. Those who think that Aquinas was anything other than a design thinker are seriously misguided. Taking it one step further, those who argue against design detection in his name are approaching the threshold of slander. Can God use chance to effect his designs? Yes, In this instance, I will plunge in boldly with a few facts and a few speculations. God has what is known as his “ordained will” and his “permissive will.” His ordained will is not open to chance, because, in those instances, the finished product must match his intent exactly. He conceived you and I, for example, even before the creation of the world, so he did not leave our formation to chance. He didn’t just want some form of “human intelligence,” he wanted you and me. In that case, he allowed for only one possible outcome. His permissive will, on the other hand, seems open to chance, and, under the circumstances, many possible outcomes are possible. Whatever the outcome, He can work with it and create something good out of it. God took a risk, for example, creating mankind, knowing in advance, that disaster would occur. It was not his ordained will, that it occur, but it was his permissive will. With regard to God’s disciples casting lots to make decisions, we cannot be sure that the outcome constituted God’s ordained will, meaning that it may not have been his first choice. We can only be sure that it was consistent with his permissive will and therefore something he could work with. Otherwise, he would not have permitted them to throw the dice. In all cases, of course, God knows what the outcome will be. He does not, however, cause all of those outcomes, as is evident from the fact that we have free will and do all kinds of things that violate God’s intentions. Obviously, none of this has anything to do with science, but then, again, few of the TEs objections are scientific. A telling point, don’t you think. This brings us to the final point with your comment: -----“What you most certainly cannot (honestly) do is demonstrate that God does not (or cannot) work through events or processes that we label “random.” As I tried to show, God CAN use random events. The problem is, however, TEs insist that God does EVERYTHING that way. What they are saying, in effect, is that since God may have allowed a snowflake or a moon crater to form by law and chance, He MUST have created a DNA molecule the same way. That is pure ideology. I suspect that it was one of the reasons what this whole notion of “functional integrity” was conceived. You can protest all you want and say that Darwinism does not mean pure contingency, but that is exactly what it does mean. Darwinism, is, by definition, non-directed. There is simply no way out of that. ID, to the extent that it argues for evolution, argues for a purpose driven evolution. Darwinism argues for a purposeless evolution. If you want to say that God may have used “Darwinian like-processes” such as random variation and natural selection to create life, you can make that case only if you concede that those processes are guided by an internal principle that drives them toward a purposeful end, which is another way of saying that they are non-Darwinian processes. Put simply, if the RV+NS process has a purpose, it is non-Darwinian. Biblically compatible evolution knows where it is going; Darwinian evolution does not know where it is going. As I tried to point out, Darwin’s scheme does not proceed from an internal principle to direct it toward an end. It that were the case, it would be teleological evolution, which is precisely what ID argues for and what TEs militate against. The problem is, that TEs use the language of teleology (purposeful evolution) while arguing on behalf of non-teleology (Darwinian evolution). That pretty much sums up Stephen Barr’s confusion, by the way. He uses the vocabulary of purpose, insisting that “design is built in to the evolutionary process,” implying direction, but then he argues on behalf of undirected natural causes---neo-Darwinism. I am sorry that I was not able to download the scientific articles that you provided. Could you summarize their arguments?StephenB
June 26, 2008
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Steve Matheson (#50): Thank you for your polite and forthright post. You misunderstood my argument at one point. In your point #2 you suggested that I was limiting God's power. Not at all. I was presenting the inner logic of pure Darwinism, Darwinism as understood as radically dependent upon chance (see my paraphrase of Gould). In pure Darwinism, outcomes are open-ended. So let's suppose a Christian adopts pure Darwinism. For such a Christian, if God creates the universe in exactly the same state on two different occasions, different creatures will evolve in each universe. His act of creation is not determinative, because of the wild card of chance. God is helpless before chance; there can be no providence. This is not my personal doctrine of God. It is the theological absurdity that follows logically if the Christian insists on strict Darwinism. So I certainly wasn't blaspheming, but merely setting limits to what evolutionary doctrine can claim if it wishes to remain compatible with historical Christianity. A Christian evolutionist must say, straightforwardly and without weaseling, that Darwin is at least partly wrong about the mechanism of evolution. Chance and natural selection, even if they were sufficient to explain the biological phenomena (which they aren't, as has been shown ad infinitum by Denton, Behe, Dembski, Wells, Meyer, Berlinski, Sewell, etc.) would be unacceptable theologically to any orthodox Christian. Yet I have never heard this stated by Collins, Miller, Ayala, or Lamoureux. I have never heard them raise this theological problem, and I have never heard anything from them but unqualified and obsequious assent to the naked Darwinian mechanism. If they have denied any part of the Darwinian mechanism, show me where and I will retract. On another point, I don't harbor hatred for atheists as such. Other things being equal, I prefer an honest atheist like Dawkins or Sagan to a nebulous, liberal Christian who isn't sure what he believes about God or creation (which describes some TEs), or an ultra-conservative evangelical Christian who compartmentalizes reality into religion and science, thus protecting his evangelical faith from any criticism based on science (which describes other TEs), or a conservative or liberal Christian who puts Christianity and Darwinism together only by adulterating his Darwinism with his theology, or vice versa, and isn't logical enough to see that this is what he's doing (which describes still other TEs). Of course, I DO dislike atheists who lie and distort and mislead people about the teachings of ID and the motives of its proponents, atheists like Scott and Forrest and Myers and others. But in those cases, it is not as atheists that I dislike them, but as cowardly and power-seeking human beings. I am fine with atheists like Thomas Hobbes, Bertrand Russell and Carl Sagan. I would rather have lunch with any of those three gentlemen than any of the four TEs I named above. On your last point, I welcome all friendly critics of ID. I haven't found many among the TEs. Of the few TEs who get out in the secular world, where ID blood is being shed daily, most of them do as much damage to the careers and personal lives of ID scientists as the atheist Darwinists do. I'm accustomed by now to thinking of TEs as Judases, or at best as Neville Chamberlains. So if you are friendly to us, i.e., actually respectful of our desire to investigate possible design in nature, and can refrain from treating us as bad scientists and bad theologians for wishing to do so, it will be a refreshing change.Thomas Cudworth
June 26, 2008
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To StephenB @57: Thanks for the response. It seems there are just two issues to tackle here. 1. You asked about my view of chance in Scripture. I note that God's people commonly used the casting of lots to make decisions (choosing the scapegoat, selecting Judas' replacement, choosing Saul as king) and Proverbs 16:33 seems pretty clear to me: "The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord." My claim is not that "design by chance is a Scriptural concept." My claim is much more basic: the notion that "random" processes, including Darwinian evolution, are "out of God's control" is indefensible. Thomas Aquinas, I gather, would agree. StephenB, I can't even imagine why a Christian would want to make that assertion about God's action in the world, even if that person had never read about the deliberate use of random devices in the Bible and God's claim to control those devices. A Christian who talks like that is one who views God and the world very differently than I do. 2. The rest of your response, it seems to me, can be summarized in this phrase: "The problem is that some want to impose on God a Darwinian process, which is, by definition, a non-control process, and then try to make it fit in with a picture of God under control." As I noted in my first comment, this claim (that Darwinian evolution is necessarily a "non-control" process) is nonsense. The best you can do is label it true "by definition" and then haul out quote-mined proof texts from confused atheists. (I'm not saying that you've quote-mined; I'm only saying that the only support such an assertion can possibly muster is the existence of those who agree.) What you most certainly cannot (honestly) do is demonstrate that God does not (or cannot) work through events or processes that we label "random." Now again, let me point to the common ground here. Neither of us believes that the marvels of creation came about by "accident" or through a process that God "can't control." I'm pretty flexible on questions of what God knows and when, and I'm interested in kenosis and other models of God's interaction with creation that make room for creaturely freedom. But like you, I reject the notion that creation unfolds outside of God's control. And that means that some of what your movement claims to value is also valuable to me. But one last thing. Do you feel compelled to reject and/or oppose scientific models of axonal pruning or synapse elimination or X chromosome inactivation or erosion or fertilization or meteorite impacts or generation of antibodies that invoke the concept of randomness? Can you see why I (as a developmental biologist) would hesitate to follow you down this road?Steve Matheson
June 25, 2008
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Theistic evolutionists like Ken Miller try to appease atheistic evolutionists by viciously attacking Intelligent Design and other scientific (or pseudoscientific, to them) criticisms of evolution. Ken Miller was a plaintiffs' expert witness in two lawsuits (Kitzmiller v. Dover and Selman v. Cobb County) against evolution-disclaimer statements in public schools where only evolution was actually being taught. Winston Churchill defined "appeaser" as "someone who feeds a crocodile, in the hope that it will eat him last." Sure enough, PZ Myers came out with a Pharyngula blog article titled, "Ken Miller, the creationist." ID-proponent Michael Behe believes in an old earth and common descent. IMO the only real difference between Behe and Ken Miller is that Miller believes that random mutation and natural selection have unlimited capabilities.Larry Fafarman
June 25, 2008
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Jerry, Apollos (54) and atom (55) have answered some of your objections to YEC as a viable theory of natural history. I would just sharpen a few points. If God helped with the stocking of Noah's ark with animals, one might expect that He would have selected for genetic diversity in the animals that went on board, so that a form of front-loading of diversity would have happened. To take the example of canids, if within the last few thousand years we can get St. Bernards, chihuahuas, and greyhounds from the same basic stock (which seems undisputed), who's to say that we can't by (more natural) selection get wolves, coyotes, dingos, African hunting dogs, and perhaps even foxes? Why, if we are only required to sort through genetic material instead of create new material, should it take millions of years? I agree with atom (55) that the definition of a species is important. Since wolves, coyotes, and apparently foxes can all interbreed with dogs, are they all one species? In that case we would be looking at interspecies variation. Perhaps more important, though, is your apparent ignorance of the stakes involved. I am quite comfortable with your rejection of YEC. Reasonable people can differ, and I feel no need to demonize you because we do. Among others, Dembski, Behe,and Steve Meyer have made clear their disagreement with YEC, particularly regarding age (and I respect them). But notice that it has made absolutely no difference in their reception by Darwinists, whether atheist or theist. Do you really trust that if only you can purge yourself of those pesky YEC's, the scientific community will welcome you with open arms? Has it happened before? Why should they start now? This was pointed out by Apollos (42 & 46) and StephenB (45). Those who are claiming that this is your real problem do not have your best interests at heart, to put it delicately. They hope to do two things. Politically, they hope to transform you from a solid majority into a minority. To refresh your memory, roughly 45% of the American populace believes that God created mankind sometime in the last 10,000 years. These are not all YEC's, as it leaves open the possibility that a long evolutionary process produced the rest of life and God intervened only once. Without further data, we can't say how that split goes, but let's say that it is 25 % YEC, 10% OEC, and 10% undecided. But all of them are ID. Then there is some 35% that believe that God used a long evolutionary process to produce humans. Again this is a mixed bag. Behe could fit here, but so would most TE's. Let's say that on the question of detectability of God's activity these split 10% TE, 15% ID Behe-style, and 10% don't know. Then there are 10% God had nothing to do with it types. In fairness, some TE's could fit here, although one would think that most of them would not want to put themselves in this category, as "nothing" is pretty absolute. That leaves about 10% on the sidelines. Let's say that those 10% are mostly split between positions 2 and 3. Now, if the question is, "Is there evidence of God's activity in nature?", then one has perhaps 30% saying "no" and 60% saying "yes". But if the YEC's and those leaning in that direction can be discredited, then the ratio increases to 30/25, and if OEC's can also be discredited the ratio rises further to 30/15. Then the atheists, who control academia, can overwhelm the TE's, by using a divide and conquer strategy. The TE's can be tolerated as dhimmis, occasionally trotted out as tokens to show that academia doesn't really have any prejudices against religion, while the scientific establishment is kept clean from known ID advocates, so as to reinforce the claim that ID is not science. (It is too bad, from this perspective, that Behe has tenure, but perhaps his department can put out a memo saying that he is all wet.) Theoretically, Darwinists hope to get you to firmly denounce YEC's, then start pestering you with questions about why God created life forms just to allow them to die, and create a lot of suffering in the process. They will ask why God created malaria and parasitic wasps. If you are an OEC they will ask you if you believe in common descent for all other forms of life, then ask why you would reject common descent for humans. They hope to push you into the TE camp, to either live there as a dhimmi, or to drift the rest of the way, as Howard Van Til apparently has and become an atheist. That's the history behind the movement, and I've seen those tactics used both in low-level and high-level discussions. The danger for them is that if they don't truly convince you to reject YEC out of hand, when they start using these theological arguments on you, you just might reconsider YEC, as it doesn't have these theological problems. So the first question they want answered is age, not the detectability of intelligence. And they want you to reject all help from those who don't believe in long ages, as then you are a minority instead of a majority. If you think that rejecting YEC will lend you respectability, just ask yourself why Behe, Dembsik, or Meyer are not more respected. Ask yourself why Gonzalez lost his job. These people have been very clear as to their disagreement with YEC. If it didn't stop Darwinists from giving them a hard time, why should Darwinists treat the rest of the movement any better? Don't you recognize snake-oil salesmen when you see them?Paul Giem
June 25, 2008
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-----Steve Matheson: "I’m astonished by the casual claim that “Darwinian evolution” is “out of God’s control” because of the role of “chance.” Leaving aside some pretty clear statements about chance and God’s providence in Scripture, I find the statement to be either a tautology (”Darwinian evolution is out of God’s control because Darwin/Dawkins said it was”) or a pronouncement regarding God’s sovereignty that is anathema to me as a Christian (and especially as a Reformed Christian). In grumpier moods, or after reading some of the more obnoxious comments on this blog, I would suggest that such talk approaches blasphemy, but in any case I would not count myself among Christians who talk that way about God’s world and his work. It’s one thing to say you don’t buy the Darwinian explanation, or to say that you’re confused about the working of God’s purposes in the midst of seemingly random events; it’s another to declare that there are processes that God can’t “control.” It would help if you would be a little more explicit in your objections. What do you mean about the “role of chance” in Scripture and what is your assessment of that role? Are you saying that design by chance is a Scriptural concept? If so, how would one square such a notion with the Biblical teaching that God had each individual in mind prior to the creation? How could the finished product match the Creator's original intent. Either evolution is an intended, consciously planned process (non-Darwinian), in which case there is only one possible outcome, or it is an unintended, unconscious, chance process with no plan (Darwinian), in which case there are many possible outcomes. It there are many possible outcomes, then the finished product will likely not match the Creator’s intent. Put another way, we must choose between teleological evolution and non-teleological evolution. Either an organism’s development (as well as its ecological environment) proceeds according to a directed, internal principle, in which case the results are predictable, or it proceeds randomly and without direction by adapting to an ever-changing environment, in which case the results are unpredictable. It can’t do both at the same time an under the same formal circumstances. No one is saying that God can’t control his own process. The problem is that some want to impose on God a Darwinian process, which is, by definition, a non-control process, and then try to make it fit in with a picture of God under control. In effect, Christian Darwinists are saying that God planned an unplanned process, which is untenable, to say the least. At some level, they sense the inherent conflict and try to fix the logical difficulty by introducing an illogical solution. (“For us, it is a Darwinian process, but for God it isn’t.”) For anyone who believes in macro-evolution, the there is only one logical solution. Abandon the idea that God used a chance-driven process, and embrace the idea that he used a purpose driven process.StephenB
June 25, 2008
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Just so you're aware, Ken Miller and Denis Lamoureux are tossing around terms over at Science & Religion today. Ken Miller has rejected the term "theistic evolution" ... http://scienceandreligiontoday.blogspot.com/2008/06/ken-miller-is-not-theistic-evolutionist.html ... and Denis Lamoureux makes his pitch for "evolutionary creation" ... http://scienceandreligiontoday.blogspot.com/2008/06/denis-lamoureux-is-evolutionary.html ... and then, of course, Francis Collins has his "BioLogos" ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BioLogosdaniel.a.messier
June 25, 2008
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Hey jerry, First, you still haven't given me your definition of a species. It isn't a "strained" answer, it is a question. A necessary one. We would need to know it before we begin discussing possible rates of "speciation", obviously. jerry wrote:
And all the species creation in nature at an amazing rate under men’s noses without them reporting any of it. I would have thought it would have made the epic poems as well as the ancient writings.
Where were the epic poems about the grey fox domestication or the domestication of the cow? Morphological change can indeed happen under men's noses without them paying great mind to it. Your sarcasm doesn't strengthen your point.
Start looking at the geographical dispersion of species and let me know how that could have happened in the time since Noah. It could have with millions of years of micro evolution but no way in 4,000 years.
The pattern of distribution is as much a pattern of extinction as it is of radiation. For example, marsupials existed once on all the continents, but now appear mainly in Australia. There were two types of camel in the Americas, forms of Elephant, horses, etc. All gone. So again, I've seen no knockdown argument against YEC using biogeography. And since time is your issue, you'd have to make assumptions about radiation (speciation) rate; but to do that, you'd need to identify your mechanism. What mechanism do you think is the main driver of your speciation? (The level of "speciation" you've yet to define.) A pre-loaded "explosion" could happen relatively quickly, if designed that way.
By the way 4,000 years ago civilizations were flourishing in Sumer and Egypt and their writings did not indicate different types of animals emerging. No historical writings did.
Not just in Mesopotamia, but in the Americas as well. They were domesticating grains and doing breeding experiments on these continents at that time. Yet even the morphological change the men themselves caused wasn't celebrated or noticed; we know it from archeology. So again, don't expect front page news when different variations of animals emerge over periods of thousands of years. This is not to assert the YEC stance; it is only to show that your "knock down" arguments against it don't really hold much water. Maybe they seem much stronger in your head (or else you probably wouldn't write them), but either way, you should lay off the YECs until you come up with something stronger.Atom
June 25, 2008
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Jerry, I think you're mistaken about the EF and the UPB, but I'll accept correction. The 10^150 bound allows for a billions year old universe, it doesn't require it. There's a big difference. Again, nothing about a design inference requires billions of years.
To say that life’s variety could have happened by natural processes in 5,000 years since they left the ark defies all reason.
Who insists on a purely "natural" process, besides those who reject the notion out of hand? There's nothing natural at all about the events surrounding Genesis 6-9. Since I'm not out to impress anyone, I'll be content with the crazy notion that my Bible provides me a reliable account, from its first page to its last. Besides scorn and ridicule, I can think of no negative social consequences of trusting the account as provided, and remaining cautiously tentative when considering what I think I know about it. I'm content to continue this 3000+ year old tradition.
The waving of the hands about age is a game and if ID continues to perpetuate it then it will remain a laughing stock among reputable scientists.
I see no hand waving, only the pragmatic acknowledgment that age calculations have no pertinent part in ID hypotheses. If you think that the "old earth" pinch-of-incense is going to liberate ID from the scorn of TE/TDs and materialists, you are mistaken. Cosmological age is not the crux of objections to ID with any of its opponents, as most of them understand it's irrelevance to ID's arguments. The same conflate ID with creationism merely to color their sophistry -- the same insist that ID must ostracize the Biblical fundamentalists, knowing it would weaken ID's grass roots support. The notion of Intelligent Design, that "certain features of the universe and living systems are best explained as the result of an intelligent process" is where the trouble lies, and they who hold that view will find few friends among those promoting Darwinism, young earth or no. Peace out. :wink:Apollos
June 25, 2008
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Apollos, I am sorry but age is definitely part of evolution and ID's attempt to be a science. The whole explanatory filter is based on deep time because it could not be legitimate if it did not use the time frame of the age of the earth in billions of years. If it rejected things as not natural because it could not happen in 6,000 years then it would be the laughing stock of the science world. Dembski or anyone here would not be taken seriously by anyone when they tried to use such an argument. The UPB is based on billions of years and is an essential part of the EF. So if ID is to be consistent and say something is designed then it must use an old earth and an old universe as part of its rationale. So those who say ID has no opinion on the age of the earth are denying ID as potential science. The waving of the hands about age is a game and if ID continues to perpetuate it then it will remain a laughing stock among reputable scientists. To say that life's variety could have happened by natural processes in 5,000 years since they left the ark defies all reason. No wonder no one takes ID seriously if they claim such could happen. No ID has to acknowledge an old earth to be serious about science.jerry
June 25, 2008
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Atom, you said "so who is to say that 4000 years of such radiation can’t produce all the variation within the kinds we see today?" You cannot be serious in your answer. Are you actually saying that because some species are conflated by different variants, that the concept is worthless. It is a very strained answer and one you cannot possibly believe. Your use of artificial selection is a cop out and you say I am using a straw man. Any examples of natural creations of species in recent times to indicate that such a thing could happen so fast. And all the species creation in nature at an amazing rate under men's noses without them reporting any of it. I would have thought it would have made the epic poems as well as the ancient writings. Start looking at the geographical dispersion of species and let me know how that could have happened in the time since Noah. It could have with millions of years of micro evolution but no way in 4,000 years. By the way 4,000 years ago civilizations were flourishing in Sumer and Egypt and their writings did not indicate different types of animals emerging. No historical writings did.jerry
June 24, 2008
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Jerry: In spite of its ongoing campaign to sell Darwinism to the public, the academy gets nowhere. Most people still believe in either intelligent design or creationism. So, it isn’t the general public we need to convince, it is the up and coming scientists, philosophers, theologians---those who are serious about a life of the mind. They are the ones who define education, culture, public communication, fashion---and yes, science itself. Few of them are gullible enough to buy into the obviously radical dogma of Dawkins and co. What they are much more likely to buy into is Christian Darwinism, which is nothing less than radicalism posing as reasonableness and temperance. That is why the TEs (the Christian/Darwin variety) are so dangerous and why anyone they teach is so vulnerable. There is just enough sugar in their confection to make young Christians swallow the poison whole and join the ranks of the anti-ID militants. Thus, will the Christian Darwinists breed a whole new generation in their own image and likeness---a new crop of intractable ideologues who, like their mentors, will tell everyone how “devout” they are as Christians even as they abandon the tenets of their faith, embrace naturalism, and join a new generation of ID persecutors. That is why we should regard them as our adversaries and give the YECs a break. Yes, there are some YECs who go off the deep end and make us look bad, but that is not the only reason or even the main reason we get stigmatized. Anyone who cares knows the difference between creation science and ID. If Darwinists and TEs do not get it, whose fault is that? The information is just as available to them as anyone else. If you and I know the difference, then they should know the difference. Why should we waste our time trying to educate them on a matter? Are they so logically challenged that they can’t figure out the difference between a presupposition and an inference? (Wait, don’t answer that)! In any case, we should be less concerned with converting old Christian Darwinists and more concerned about recruiting young skulls full of mush. The best way to do that is too call our enemies out and fight them in the arena of public opinion. As Vernon Johns once remarked, “If you see a good fight, get in it.”StephenB
June 24, 2008
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Just a few responses to Thomas' original post. I will respond as though the post was directed at me, but please don't assume that I speak for other evolutionary creationists. My focus is on why I can't "join" you in the ID movement. 1. I embrace evolutionary explanations because they have explanatory power. For the same reason, I embrace naturalistic explanations for the development of the human brain, and for the causation of cancer, and for the formation of the Grand Canyon. All of these explanations involve mechanisms that are referred to as "random." In fact, randomness and chance are interesting topics for Christians of all kinds and in nearly every aspect of scientific inquiry (if not all of life). In my view, to focus on these issues exclusively in the context of biological evolution is a huge mistake. If I thought the ID movement were really about wrestling with the notions of chance, providence and design in the analysis of God's world, I'd be happy to join the conversation. It's not, and I'm not. 2. I'm astonished by the casual claim that "Darwinian evolution" is "out of God's control" because of the role of "chance." Leaving aside some pretty clear statements about chance and God's providence in Scripture, I find the statement to be either a tautology ("Darwinian evolution is out of God's control because Darwin/Dawkins said it was") or a pronouncement regarding God's sovereignty that is anathema to me as a Christian (and especially as a Reformed Christian). In grumpier moods, or after reading some of the more obnoxious comments on this blog, I would suggest that such talk approaches blasphemy, but in any case I would not count myself among Christians who talk that way about God's world and his work. It's one thing to say you don't buy the Darwinian explanation, or to say that you're confused about the working of God's purposes in the midst of seemingly random events; it's another to declare that there are processes that God can't "control." 3. Regarding design, I don't have any desire at all to "ban the notion of design from science." In fact, I'm quite comfortable discussing design and wondering about the ways it can come about. I find most of the ID movement's claims about "complexity" and whatnot to be unconvincing (and Behe's work in TEoE is disastrously flawed), but I don't think the question is either silly or inherently unscientific. (Perhaps this means I'm not the kind of "TE" you have in mind.) On questions of design, my main difference with your movement is probably summarized aptly as follows: I think design is the question, and you think it's the answer. But this means I'm just not that interested in your movement's goals. 4. Unlike many on this blog, I don't harbor hatred for atheists, not even "unsavory" atheists, and I actively seek opportunities to interact with skeptics. I have many friends and very close collaborators who are atheists, and I just joined a collaborative blog that seeks to create constructive conversations among believers and skeptics, on scientific topics. Even if we agreed on everything else, your movement (or at least the corner of the movement represented by this blog) would be something I would carefully avoid, not only because I despise the culture-war rhetoric, but because the people you hate are many of the people I love. Now, please let me sign off by saying that while I'll never join your movement, I do want to be counted as a "friendly critic" who is willing and able to identify areas of common ground between us. You approached some of that common ground in your post, and I thought it was worth a try responding in my first comment at UD. Sorry about the length...Steve Matheson
June 24, 2008
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Hi Jerry,
"Was the YEC hating comment directed at me? If so it is inappropriate."
Well no, and I think that was pretty apparent contextually. After all, it was hypothetical, and a generalization -- and I'm under no illusion that you personally are in a position to unite TE and ID by hating YEC.
As far as I know the YEC’s say all was created 6000 years ago.
Yes that's one of the views, others suspect 10,000 years or more -- even others suggest 100,000s. Regardless it's irrelevant to the ID debate. That YECs generally accept ID, and that ID doesn't chastise or ridicule them for it, is not that surprising to me. The age of the universe has practically nothing to do with design detection. I have yet to hear a compelling argument that it does.
How did the tens of million species happen in this short time?
I could ask you to explain how it happened with a long time span. I doubt you could do it justice, nor anyone for that matter. Since neither of us can answer the question, from a short or long term perspective, I'd say it's moot -- especially considering it has no direct relevance to the ID paradigm. Additionally, I'm not here as a YEC apologist, I'm here as an ID supporter. If my support does damage to the movement, I'll withdraw it when those leading the movement make it clear.
The YEC’s can claim that they accept micro evolution but how did all the species of the earth arrive?
I would imagine that YECs can accept microevolution because it's directly observable and testable, just like anyone else can. I believe many YECs accept the concept of front-loaded genomes, same as many old-earth ID proponents, so it's not that hard to imagine (that seems like a popular scientific tool these days) the unfolding of species diversity based on already-present genomic information. This is an ID compatible view.
The age issue prevents ID from being a serious science.
There is no ID "age issue" and I'll be shocked if I'm the only one who holds this view. There are no aspects of design detection nor design inferences that require long geologic ages. The "design" issue is what limits Intelligent Design, a nice built-in catch 22. As long as ID posits the possibility of purposeful design by an intelligent agent, it's going to cause apoplexy among the materialist and Darwinist elite, period.
I do not hate anyone and admire a lot of YEC’s for their values, but not their science and theology.
I have yet to see any sort of exegetical discourse that demonstrates the bad theology of a literal interpretation of the book of Genesis. Peace and grace, I'm off to Bible study. :oApollos
June 24, 2008
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jerry wrote:
Each species was created then and then I guess all were on the Ark. From the Ark, they allow that some micro evolution took place but I am not the one to say how much. But in that time, not much micro evolution could have happened. How did the tens of million species happen in this short time? By micro evolution? Not by any process I am aware of. The YEC’s can claim that they accept micro evolution but how did all the species of the earth arrive? It all took time which the YEC’s cannot accept and if ID ignores the time issue it is not a serious contender in the evolution debate and should stay out of it.
Come on jerry, really? First, let's define a species. After you do that, we can assess how many OBSERVED species we've counted, then we can move on to estimates. After that, let's see how quickly we can "speciate" given your definition of "species." Now I'm not up on the latest YEC Baraminology, but my understanding is that there were original created kinds, hence "bara + min". These are groups that can reproduce with others of the same kind. So dogs, wolves, coyotes, etc...all would be considered a kind. Now we know that in around 50 years grey foxes can change morphologically and behaviorally to become almost indistiguishable from domesticated dogs (google "grey fox domestication"), so who is to say that 4000 years of such radiation can't produce all the variation within the kinds we see today? It is an empirical question, the kind that IDers love. I see nothing unscientific about having a hypothesis that all animals descend from groups dating back less than 10,000 years. It is falsifiable, open to investigation and can lead to more questions...even if it turned out to be false. Methinks your man smells like straw.Atom
June 24, 2008
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Appollos, As far as I know the YEC's say all was created 6000 years ago. Each species was created then and then I guess all were on the Ark. From the Ark, they allow that some micro evolution took place but I am not the one to say how much. But in that time, not much micro evolution could have happened. How did the tens of million species happen in this short time? By micro evolution? Not by any process I am aware of. The YEC’s can claim that they accept micro evolution but how did all the species of the earth arrive? It all took time which the YEC’s cannot accept and if ID ignores the time issue it is not a serious contender in the evolution debate and should stay out of it. The age issue prevents ID from being a serious science. It doesn’t prevent Behe by the way since he recognizes time is his work. A big sticking point with the TE’s is the age issue. Was the YEC hating comment directed at me? If so it is inappropriate. I do not hate anyone and admire a lot of YEC’s for their values, but not their science and theology. I happen to believe that ID's association with YEC impedes the acceptance of ID amongst those who count, the average person. I actually believe the YEC's are very selfish in this debate and are only looking at enhancing their own religious position by entering into a debate they really do not believe in. I have no desire to convince the Darwinists or the ID bashers but those who might accept ID in the general population. There is a fixation here with Panda's Thumb and TE's when the fixation should be on the average person. Those are the ones I would like to convince, not the YEC’s, the TE’s or the Darwinists.jerry
June 24, 2008
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StephenB, thanks. I find it difficult to believe that ID's ostracizing of YEC will cause the TE/TDs to abandon their view that design detection in living organisms is heretical and unscientific.Apollos
June 24, 2008
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-----Appollos: "All the YEC hating in the world isn’t going to unite diametrical ID and Darwinian viewpoints. If one must make enemies of their friends to make friends with their enemies, then they’re consorting with madness. YEC is not incompatible with ID — no matter how unpalletable one might find the young earth view; however philosophical materialism and Theistic Darwinism are completely incompatible, and both are ID’s sworn enemy." This is very well put.StephenB
June 24, 2008
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I have a negative reaction to dissing TE on the basis of inconsistency. Isn't there an equally great inconsistency in discussing Christianity without God? If Christianity includes prayer, then it cannot be Darwinist, Deists don't pray either. In fact, I would use prayer as a de facto definition of theism. So the inconsistency in TE is not between Christianity & Darwin, but between prayer and Darwin. Finally, YEC can do science, albeit with some really strange things happening 6000 years ago. But are they all that more strange than a singularity 13.7 billion years ago? They can still do 99.9% of the science taught in graduate schools today, albeit with caveats about "apparent age" versus "real age". But we've been living with "apparent purpose" versus "real purpose" for 150 years, and still have managed to do good science. So cut them some slack, and stop getting hung up on metaphysics. After all, you only need metaphysics when you're doing paradigm shifts.sheldonr
June 24, 2008
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Sorry, spelling correction: unpalatableApollos
June 24, 2008
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Jerry wrote:
The YEC’s don’t even believe in evolution...
By "evolution" do you mean universal common descent? If your statement boils down to "YECs don't believe that humans and apes evolved from a common ancestor" then you're correct. YECs (from what I gather) reject naturalistic OOL scenarios, and they object that there is sufficient hard evidence for a macroevolution scenario. They have no problem with microevolution. So when you say that YECs don't believe in evolution, it presents as an equivocation. Evolution: the notion that all life is the result of chance, necessity, and Darwinian processes. (Includes OOL) Evolution: the notion that all life developed via Darwinian process from a single common ancestor. (Excludes OOL) Evolution: the observation that species change over time via a combination of natural and genetic factors. (Excludes Macroevolution) Let's remember that ID attempts to be specific about which definitions are proven, suggested, or unreasonable to assume. One of the advantages of the ID debate is that it exposes the prevarication of the term "evolution" so I think a descent into ambiguity in this term's usage is unfortunate. There's nothing within the scope of ID that goes specifically against the young earth view that a variety of species (including humans) were created at the genesis of life. And ID's position that the anthropic prinipal (and the PPH) is very suggestive of deliberate fine tuning does nothing to assault YEC either. All the YEC hating in the world isn't going to unite diametrical ID and Darwinian viewpoints. If one must make enemies of their friends to make friends with their enemies, then they're consorting with madness. YEC is not incompatible with ID -- no matter how unpalletable one might find the young earth view; however philosophical materialism and Theistic Darwinism are completely incompatible, and both are ID's sworn enemy.Apollos
June 24, 2008
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Rude, First off, I'd agree that the lines of science are rather fuzzy. But, saying that design is the default position doesn't really hit at my question. For one, not everyone believes that - in fact, many scientists (and certainly most atheists) have devoted themselves to positioning atheism as the so-called 'null hypothesis'. Second, while Johnson's comeback was powerful to say the least, that's a very brief exchange. I simply have not seen the philosophical argument for design capitalized on out of the ID camp. Meanwhile, from Dawkins to Quentin Smith to others, there is an endless amount of philosophical harping about how 'Clearly God wouldn't make this world' or 'Nature, when you study it, seems meaningless and purposeless' and elsewise. Their arguments are weak, abysmally so. And I do not see the ID camp challenging them on philosophical grounds. Again - I am more than happy to get abuse of science out of schools. I think any descriptions of nature as purposeless, of evolution as blind, or of natural history as chance, are philosophically loaded - and should be removed, while the science and natural history itself remains. The problem is that I favor this tact over what I see as the ID alternative - keeping those descriptions in there, and trying to balance it out with ID. Let me add another difficulty I see. How many people have you encountered that utterly butcher what ID proposes, or constitutes as an idea? Now, just how much clearer do you think ID is going to be presented by most public school science teachers? In a way, the whole public school debate is, for me, a non-issue. Very little actual education seems to happen there. Books, articles, websites, groups, and most especially parents - those stand a better chance of properly communicating the weaknesses of 'chance' and 'without design' claims. I sympathize with the desire, but I think it'd be a mistake to bet too heavily on it.nullasalus
June 24, 2008
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Jerry, I appreciate what you are saying about the capacity of some TE’s to blend in with ID at some level, and I tend to agree. Not all of them are created equal, and I can co-exist with the old time TEs that simply integrate Christianity with some kind of guided evolution (macro or micro). Most TE’s, however, fall into one or more of at least seven possible errors: Error #1: Arguing that Christianity and Darwinism (general theory) are compatible). As Thomas has pointed out, that marriage doesn’t work. That is why Christian Darwinists always subordinate their faith to Darwinist ideology. They don’t end up denying the fall or the existence of Adam and Eve for nothing. They may be theists, but their compromised version of Christianity has been fatally wounded. Error #2: Joining in with Darwinists to impose methodological naturalism as the official methodology for science. Thus, they want to take ID out of the game even before it enters the arena. The name of the game is to discredit the idea of design as a scientific construct and rule it out in principle. Error #3: Confusing young earth creationism with intelligent design. There is simply no excuse for this. If they make that mistake, then they are scandalously uninformed and not worth taking seriously. Their obligation to understand and to not misrepresent the other side should weigh heavily on them, because their errors can compromise and ruin someone’s career. Our side doesn’t have that kind of power. Error #4: Attacking ID on the grounds that it violates the principles of Divine Causality. Many TEs misread Augustine and Aquinas and putting words in their mouth to justify their anti-design bias. In fact, almost all of the great scientists have been design thinkers. Error #5: Attacking ID on the grounds that [A] a good God would never have designed the world. (Design is heartless) Or [B] A competent God would never have designed life in any direct way. (It is beneath the dignity of a “greater God.”) These assumptions are grounded in wishful thinking. God could have countless reasons for doing things in an ID fashion. In any case, science should not be ideology driven. Error #6: Playing fast and loose with contingency, calling it objective when they want to maintain Darwinist materialism, and calling it subjective when they want to explain away a seemingly purposeless God. Error: #7: Arguing that a design inference is a mere intellectual phenomenon, meaning that images of reality have nothing to do with reality itself and so design must be an illusion. This is also very common and is not unrelated to the Darwinian proposition that design is an “illusion.” If the TE doesn’t make any of these errors, then he is OK with me. I don’t mind it if he doesn’t believe in intelligent design as long as his rationale is not based on one of those seven errors, and as long as he doesn’t persecute ID. Almost all TEs make at least one of these errors, and many stumble over five or six of them. In the old days, and with the old TEs, it wasn’t that way. That is what anti-intellectualism has done to our culture. For the most part, TE arguments are incomprehensible, mostly because they are also nonsensical. That is why when I ask people to summarize a given TE’s formulation, they begin to realize that they can’t do it. It isn’t their fault. It is just that they are realizing, perhaps for the first time, that the arguments don’t hang together well enough to summarize. So they always refer me back to the author himself, whom I have often already read and critiqued. Of one thing you may be sure. If a person [A] is arguing on behalf of a reasonable proposition and [B] if he truly understands it, then [C] he can wade through the complexity, distill it to its basic essence (without oversimplifying it), and explain it so that a twelve year old can understand it.StephenB
June 24, 2008
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StephenB, I have read the first 6-7 essays in the Keith Miller Book and from what I read it is entirely consistent with ID. The authors I have read would allow special creation or what some call the poof scenario. That does not say they think that is how evolution happened but it is within their ideological frame work. I suggest you read the chapters by Lorne Haarsma and Ted Davis. Haarsma's essay is nothing short of outstanding. Don't use Ken Miller as the poster boy of the TE's. He is very visible but very suspect because of his financial interests. I have been one of the more frequent demonizers of Ken Miller here and would never consider him a serious TE. What is currently driving a lot of the TE's positions seems to be an abhorrence of YEC's who they see as having very bad science and very bad theology. They see ID as intertwined with YEC and from what I have seen on this site, I agree. The occasional denial that ID has anything to do with YEC notwithstanding and is only interested in what is designed vanishes quickly in a lot of the discussions here. ID refuses to get serious about the evolution debate and picks and chooses its battles while avoiding others so as to not offend the YEC's. The YEC's don't even believe in evolution which is one reason the whole relationship seems ludicrous to many. ID has teamed up on the evolution debate with a group that says that evolution has not happened. So what kind of credibility can it have with such a strategy. Until ID does get serious, it will have to remain on the fringes. As Nick Matzke has said it is so easy to discredit ID as long as it has its relationship with the YEC's.jerry
June 24, 2008
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I think that the ACLU would be OK with the pledge of allegiance if we changed the wording to, "One nation under Darwin."StephenB
June 24, 2008
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"LOL, home schooled Darwinists, Now that would be funny" Sure, allow science-teaching the freedom to follow the evidence. Darwinism as faith has its rightful place somewhere like here: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1686828,00.html :-)steveO
June 24, 2008
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