Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Theistic Evolutionists, Your Position Is Incoherent — But We Can Help You!

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In this, my first column for Uncommon Descent, I’d like to address what seems to be a fundamental contradiction running through the writings of many “theistic evolutionists,” and propose an adjustment to their theoretical framework.
 
Critics of theistic evolution (TE) have often suggested that theistic evolutionists (TEs) have to put themselves through mental contortions in order to remain Christian while embracing Darwin.  Yet a person very well versed in TE literature has informed me that many TEs do not appear to feel any such intellectual discomfort.  They reconcile Christianity and Darwin, he suggests, by holding to an “old earth creationist” position, by interpreting Genesis non-literally, and by treating evolution as God’s “creation tool.” 
 
The first two points are non-controversial.  There is plenty of room within orthodox Christianity for the belief that the earth is very old, and for less-than-completely-literal interpretations of Genesis.  However, the proposition that evolution could be “God’s creation tool” is open to more than one interpretation, and bears closer examination.  Given that most TEs appear to be strict Darwinists with respect to the mechanism of evolution (i.e., chance mutations plus natural selection), critical observers are justified in inquiring about the suitability of the Darwinian mechanism as a “creation tool” for a specifically Christian God.

I would not have a problem understanding evolution as God’s “creation tool,” if TEs conceived of evolution as a “tool” in the strict sense.  A tool in the strict sense is fully in the control of the tool-user, and the results it achieves (when properly used by a competent user) are not due to chance but to intelligence and skill.  But Darwin’s mechanism leaves room for neither intelligence nor skill; it is the unconscious operation of impersonal natural selection upon mutations which are the products of chance.  It follows that Darwinian evolution is not a tool, but an autonomous process, and therefore out of God’s control.
 
This has a theological consequence.  If evolution is out of God’s control, it is incompatible with the notion of providence — the notion that God provides for the future needs of the earth and its inhabitants.  God can hardly, for example, provide for the need of Hagar in the desert, if he can’t even guarantee that the human race, of which Hagar is a member, will ever emerge from the primordial seas.  (The radical contingency of the Darwinian mechanism is captured well by Darwinist Stephen Jay Gould, when he wrote that if the tape of evolution were rewound and played again, the results would be entirely different.  Once God sets a truly Darwinian process in motion, he has no control over whether it will produce Adam and Eve, a race of pointy-eared Vulcans, or just an ocean full of bacteria.)
 
A non-providential God is clearly not an orthodox Christian God, and it therefore appears that theistic evolutionism generates heretical Christianity.  As I see it, the only way for theistic evolutionists to escape this consequence is to argue that mutations seem like chance events from the human perspective, but from God’s perspective are foreordained.  But in that case, “evolution” is really just the actualization of a foreseen design over a very long time frame; the “purely natural causes” spoken of by the TEs are really just the unrecognized fingertips of the very long arm of God.  This view, which we might call “apparent Darwinism,” fails to get God out of the process of natural causation, which was (as Cornelius Hunter has argued) Darwinism’s historical raison d’être.
 
In response to this, TEs could say:  “Well, we are Christians, so of course we believe that these apparently chance events were divinely foreordained and therefore are not ultimately chance events.  Our goal is not to deny the ultimate agency of God, but only to establish that the design of living things, though certainly in the mind of God at the beginning of the world’s creation, is not humanly DETECTABLE, as the ID proponents say it is.  Evolution proceeds as if directed by chance; neither our sense nor our instruments are capable of registering the difference between mutations produced by the hidden hand of God and mutations produced by chance.  Operationally, science must proceed as if chance alone is at work.  There is therefore no legitimately scientific design inference.  Design is a theological interpretation of the natural data, not a scientific one.  And that is why we remain theistic evolutionists, appealing to strictly Darwinian causation in our science and keeping our theological interpretation of nature out of the labs, schools and universities.”
 
This has surface plausibility.  But note that, if this argument is accepted, there is no longer any metaphysical difference between TE and ID.  Given this argument, both ID and TE acknowledge that living creatures are in fact designed by God and brought into being exactly in accord with God’s will.  The difference that remains between TE and ID is not over metaphysics but over epistemology, i.e., over the question:  How do we KNOW that the flagellum or the wing of a bird or the circulatory system is a consequence of design rather than chance?  And here is where TE takes its final stand:  it is only by faith, not by the scientific study of nature, that we can know this.
 
But how does TE verify this doctrine?  Surely the question whether design detection can be an empirical science is itself subject to empirical investigation, and cannot be prematurely settled by any dogmatic pronouncement.  TE is thus obliged to look at the work of those who claim that design detection can be an empirical science, and to consider that claim on its merits, not dismiss it out of hand.  It thus must engage the arguments of Dembski, Behe, etc.  TE is of course free to argue that Dembski and Behe and the others fail to provide an adequate basis for a science of design detection, by pointing to real or alleged flaws in their arguments.  But this still means that TE must abandon a priori epistemological declarations and enter whole-heartedly into the honest consideration of whether design in nature is detectable by scientific means.
 
Thus, we see that the foundational contradiction at the very core of TE (that orthodox Christianity is 100% true, and that the Darwinian mechanism is also 100% true), puts TEs on the horns of a dilemma.  Accept the complete truth of the Darwinian mechanism, and one must deny at least one key Christian doctrine, i.e., providence.  Alternately, accept the complete truth of all the core Christian doctrines, including providence, and “chance” is a fiction, Darwinism is a guided process, there is design, and design may in principle be detectable.  TEs thus have a choice.  If their priority, their most important motivation, is to ban the notion of design from science, they can do so, by affirming that chance rather than providence is ultimately real; the cost is the adoption of a non-Christian theology.  If, on the other hand, their priority is to account for the origin of species and of man within the framework of providence, they must affirm that chance is not ultimately real; the cost is the abandonment of the Darwinian mechanism.   
 
Let me summarize.  It is possible to be a theistic evolutionist without contradiction.  It is possible to be a specifically Christian theistic evolutionist without contradiction.  It is not, however, possible to be a Christian DARWINIST without contradiction.  A Christian Darwinist is bound to maintain logically incompatible positions:  that evolution is both a tool and an autonomous process, that providence and chance are both ultimately real, that design is potentially detectable and that it is a priori indetectable.  This intellectual schizophrenia cannot be maintained.  TEs must decide whether or not their grudge against ID and its proponents is more important to them than the maintenance of a consistently orthodox Christian theology. 
 
TEs, you can join us at no real cost.  You can keep your Christian faith (which incidentally is more highly respected by even non-Christian ID advocates than it is by many of your current colleagues).  You can keep evolution (understood as common descent) and all its evidences, including the fossil record, Darwin’s arguments about biogeographical distribution, and a 4.5-billion-year-old earth.  We don’t even ask you to pledge allegiance to intelligent design; we just ask you to abandon your a priori prejudice that design in nature can’t possibly be detectable, and to join us in investigating the question.   
 
And there’s an added bonus.  You’ll finally be able to abandon the unsavory company of angry, paranoid, condescending atheists like Richard Dawkins, Jerry Coyne, P.Z. Myers, Jeffrey Shallit, and Barbara Forrest.  Talk about the icing on the cake!
 
Think about it.

 

Comments
Rude, "Let the teachers teach! And if the Darwinists don’t like it—home school! That’s what the rest of us have to do." LOL, home schooled Darwinists, Now that would be funny.bornagain77
June 24, 2008
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The problem with TE is that it turns God into a needlessly multiplied entity. That is the real heart of the issue.QuadFather
June 24, 2008
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Nusullus: “Why is there so little effort on the philosophical end of ID? Why do even the philosophers who are pro-ID come at the question from the angle of ‘Well, ID should be considered science’ rather than bypassing that question and arguing that what we know of even mainstream evolution and natural science indicates a Designer?” But I thought that that is precisely what ID is doing. There is no ID denial that evolution occurred—rather, as I tell people, “evolution is evidence”—evidence of design. That was, in Phil Johnson’s words, “Berra’s blunder.” Tim Berra, in his 1990 book, compared the evolution of human technology with mindless Darwinism. What the man missed is that human technology is by design. Design is the default position. If it has the appearance of design then it is design—until someone can show us otherwise. Some friends of ID, such as David Berlinski, may not see the design inference as fool proof, but they do see clearly the complete nakedness of Emperor Darwin. Further isn’t it true that most if not all ID advocates are not demarcationists—wasn’t this the entire thrust of Nancy Pearcey’s hefty tome, Total Truth? There is no discrete boundary between science and religion and there is no one scientific method. As for government schools, I’m with you when you say, “Frankly, I think one of the best answers to the whole ID classroom debate is a greater emphasis on home-schooling. I have a dim view of public schooling …” Nevertheless it would be good to break the education monopoly where a Stalinist cabal dictates exactly what a teacher can and cannot teach. Let the teachers teach! And if the Darwinists don’t like it—home school! That’s what the rest of us have to do.Rude
June 24, 2008
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-----Thomas Cudworth: "The question arises: whose side are the TEs on? The side of materialistic naturalism, or the side of Mind? Classical theists (Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, Hooker, etc.) felt no need to fudge; design in nature was to be expected, because nature was created, shaped and ordered by a great Mind. Why, when confronted by the same overwhelming evidence for design, do our modern theists vacillate?" This is the part that I find most frustrating. All the great thinkers, Augustine, Aquinas, Newton, etc, were design thinkers, but the TEs misrepresent their arguments, twist their words, and try to make them say things that they didn't say---as if they would have supported the TE's non-design argument.StephenB
June 24, 2008
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Oops, that should read, "if you think you can find a way to integrate Darwinism with traditional Chrisiantiy.....StephenB
June 24, 2008
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Jerry, I have studied many of the prominent TEs, and I am confident that I understand the substance of their arguments. Not all of them are Christian Darwinists. In fact, a very small minority, in the likeness of Edward Oakes, are even critical of Darwin, though they save their fury for ID scientists. Still, most TEs fall into the category of Christian Darwinist, just as Thomas has described them on this post. Consistent with the theme of this post, I believe that TEs really do try to reconcile two irreconcilable world views, a point that I have made from a variety of vantage points. (Even to the point of being irksome, I suppose). Clearly, Thomas has done the requisite reading, so his arguments are grounded in a solid understanding of what the TEs are saying. His objections against the TEs formulation are similar to mine, although his approach is more diplomatic and ecumenical. I can’t speak for him, of course, but for my part, an appeal to reread what I have already read will not persuade me that I am wrong. If you think that you can find to integrate Darwinism with traditional Christianity and make it coherent (I am not talking about Biblical literalism), then go for it. I promise I will be respectful of the attempt, though naturally I reserve the right to comment on it.StephenB
June 24, 2008
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Thomas Cudworth, Thanks for the kind words and thoughtful response, first off. I absolutely am aware of the imported metaphysics many evolution proponents smuggle in, and I'm as set against that as can be. As I've said here, my position is that science isn't able to rule on design in either direction - and I think that this line has been crossed, repeatedly and broadly, by atheists. It's one reason why I, as a TE, really can't fault the ID community for asserting that it's scientific to see design in nature: Because so many have passed off the claim that there's no design or purpose in nature AS science. Even if I disagree that such views can be 'scientific', I must agree that if one side can do it, the other side can as well. And 'Well, the mainstream scientific community is majority atheist/agnostic' doesn't mean a thing in verifying their metaphysics. As for 'naturalistic', honestly, I think that word doesn't really mean anything anymore aside from 'God wasn't involved'. And for the record, I don't think 'supernatural' has much of a definition either, and never has. Those words are problematic and frighteningly open to abuse - primarily, in my view, by naturalists themselves. It's akin to 'materialism', which should have died when our knowledge of physics advanced. Heck, even Bertrand Russell thought said advances struck down materialism at its core. Now, someone who wants to call themselves a materialist just expands the definition to include waves, quantum phenomena, and whatever else they want to sans what they do not. Anyway, you ask why some TEs resist ID as much as they do. While pointing out one more time that I think Ayala's take on such is a sham to say the least, I want to offer some possibilities for that - as a lone, unnamed, but sympathetic TE. These aren't excuses, nor are they necessarily what I believe. But I think they're what go through the minds of some, maybe many TEs. * They associate ID with YEC, and consider YEC not just an incorrect view, but a downright embarrassment that outright impedes their ability to express their faith. I believe in treating YECs with respect, even though I disagree with them. But keep in mind that many atheists love - out and out cherish - the association of YEC with mainstream religion. They consider it tremendously easy to knock down, and to convince others that they've knocked it down. Some TEs resent this and see it as a disaster for faith, because someone who believes that either YECs or atheists are right will find themselves choosing the latter option. Further, they consider the YEC position not intellectually respectable, and don't like having their faith associated with such. * Because they don't believe that evolution (or even 'darwinian evolution', a phrase which many people seem to have differing definitions of) or science in general has anything to say either way about religious claims - and believe that ID, even sans-YEC, offers arguments that set their faith up for a religious beating. Take an IC structure, like the bacterial flagellum. I know it's unlikely to say the least for a number of reasons, but what if such a structure were shown to evolve under laboratory conditions? By the TE view, nothing changes - it's just one more bit of order in the universe, one more example of secondary causation. But if atheists saw such a falsification (or thought they saw it) they would tout it as proof that there is no God. Meanwhile, if such a demonstration never showed up in the laboratory.. they still have little to gain, because it would just be written off a discovery that could or would come someday, or one they didn't even need to validate their beliefs. There is, to many TEs, nothing that can science can demonstrate definitely comes from God. It could always be a misunderstanding, or - if necessary - from an alien or other kind of intelligence. * I think there are a variety of lesser reasons in play. A desire to prove to the atheists that they, too, can be rational and scientific by aiming their sights on those outside the mainstream. A belief that the whole ID debate is a distraction from arguments that better convince people of God (usually philosophical ones, etc.) And let me ask something in turn. Why is there so little effort on the philosophical end of ID? Why do even the philosophers who are pro-ID come at the question from the angle of 'Well, ID should be considered science' rather than bypassing that question and arguing that what we know of even mainstream evolution and natural science indicates a Designer? One of my personal frustrations with the ID movement is that the evidence for design, even with the same mechanisms proposed by the most mainstream of darwinists, is overwhelming. Dawkins and others have talked about how the 'illusion' of design is so powerful, even within their own theories. It should be easy to mount an argument that, while nature may not prove a particular religion's faith to be true, the evidence we have renders atheism irrational compared to at least deism, or theist-leaning agnosticism.nullasalus
June 24, 2008
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To nullasalus (#1, 17, 21): I realize that TE is a generic term which covers a lot of territory, so I was broad-brushing, and I of course respect your right to call yourself a TE while refusing some of my characterizations. However, I think your suggestion -- that science should stick with "just the facts, ma'am" and avoid declaring whether an event is due to chance or design -- is an inaccurate description of how pure Darwinists (including Dawkins, Coyne, Miller, and Darwin himself) see science. They won't accept as "scientific" any account of origins which opens the door to design, but they do accept as “scientific” an account of origins which mixes laws of nature (i.e., “natural selection”, which in Darwinism passes for a law of nature of sorts) with a heavy dose of chance (i.e., “random mutations”, changes for which Darwinists neither give nor seek any law-like explanation). Darwinians therefore import an anti-design, pro-chance, metaphysical preference into the practice of science. Indeed, in your post #21, you seem to acknowledge that at least some Darwinists, even some theistic evolutionists, have this bias, and you agree with me in deploring it, but I don't think that any Darwinist, whether an atheist or a theistic evolutionist, can remove the bias; it's inherent in the Darwinian mechanism and in the Darwinian conception of science. Your plea that theistic evolutionists should not blindly accept “naturalism” is welcome in these quarters, but that puts you at odds with many of the theistic evolutionists, who defend “naturalism” as aggressively as Dawkins does. I suspect that you are what I would call a theistic evolutionist, but not what I am calling a theistic Darwinist. You don’t seem to swallow the Darwinian “naturalistic” mechanism uncritically. The whole point of my column was to urge all theistic evolutionists to adopt your less dogmatic position. If the TEs would be content to affirm the fact of evolution, while leaving the mechanism open (i.e., while allowing for non-Darwinian mechanisms), then TEs and a good number of ID people could have productive talks, because a good number of ID people believe that not only microevolution but macroevolution has in fact occurred. The question that TEs and ID people should be asking together is: how can we put the apparent fact of evolution together with the appearance of design in nature? But so far, the TEs are unwilling to concede that the appearance of design in nature is even worth investigating. They just join with the atheist Darwinists in dismissing the appearance of design as an illusion, to be explained away by hypothetical evolutionary pathways, or promissory notes of “future research” into such pathways. And they wonder why ID people are frustrated! The question arises: whose side are the TEs on? The side of materialistic naturalism, or the side of Mind? Classical theists (Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, Hooker, etc.) felt no need to fudge; design in nature was to be expected, because nature was created, shaped and ordered by a great Mind. Why, when confronted by the same overwhelming evidence for design, do our modern theists vacillate?Thomas Cudworth
June 24, 2008
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When I saw this post go up I was packing for a vacation. I decided to bring the bible of Theistic Evolution, a compilation by a series of scientists who frequently comment at ASA. It is called Perspectives on an Evolving Creation and edited by Keith Miller. Don't confuse him with Ken Miller. Keith Miller is a paleontologists and an equal hater of ID as Ken Miller. I had bought it a little over a year ago when the ASA people were here but had not read it. I highly recommend it based on the first 100 pages and nothing in the first five or six chapters is unfriendly to ID though later on sections are supposed to support a gradualist view of evolution. If one is going to quarrel with the theistic evolutionists then maybe we should read their own writings and see just what they say. As I said the first 100 pages has nothing to contradict ID and in fact it is very sympathetic to how I view ID. The chapter on science by Loren Haarsma is outstanding. There will never be another discussion of just what "chance" means after reading it.jerry
June 23, 2008
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To the poster: You could also argue that in the past when scientists have attributed a phenomenon to "chance", it's principally because they don't understand the underlying processes. We are beginning to understand the underlying processes of biology and as such, appeals to chance are inhibitory to the advance of science at this point, because it's basically an appeal to ignorance. Or in short, you could simply ask, "Do you enjoy being stupid?" :Dtragicmishap
June 23, 2008
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Naturalism in any guise is unorthodox because it negates sovereignty. "Through him all things were made, and without him nothing was made that has been made." Christ is the logos of being, both the creator and the recreator. Any other ontology is not Biblical. "All things work together for good to those who love God." It seems that all of being has been designed in a way that favors the well-being of the believer. Also God is said to directly intervene in our behalf; most impressively in the incarnation. Why does it matter? Two reasons. Much of the appeal of the gospel is based on God's providence and loving-kindness. The shepherd actively watches over his sheep. Secondly, with pure naturalism there is no "way." Being does not reflect the logos, in which case the Bible has no practical wisdom to offer the believer. Some people seem to think that the way to spread the good news is to make an accommodation with the world and its vanity. The gospel bears better fruit when it resists the world. ID performs a great service in this sense simply by demonstrating the impossibility of Darwin's myth.allanius
June 23, 2008
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StephenB said (#22) --
Most TEs, however, are not content to simply express their objections about the legitimacy of the design inference. They want to institutionalize their disagreement make it a rule of science. Under the aegis of “methodological naturalism,” they seek to discredit ID scientists and define them out of existence.
This is true. Theistic evolutionist Ken Miller was a plaintiffs' expert witness in both the Kitzmiller v. Dover and Selman v. Cobb County cases. In both cases, school boards had recently adopted his strongly pro-Darwinist biology textbooks. As sops to critics of Darwinism, both school boards adopted brief evolution disclaimer statements. In both cases, only Darwinism was actually taught in the science classes. Both lawsuits sought to eliminate the evolution disclaimers. Ken Miller has no qualms about urging the courts to ruthlessly and totally suppress scientific (pseudoscientific to him) ideas that he disagrees with.Larry Fafarman
June 23, 2008
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-----Deuce: "It’s completely trivial to say that the events that led to the existence of humans don’t look intended to us. Of course they don’t. They happened before we existed, so we can’t see them, so they don’t look like anything at all. Yes. Convenience is the name of the game. When chance promises to support the vitality of their naturalism, it’s the real thing, but when it threatens to expose the purposelessness of their theism, it’s a mere perception.StephenB
June 22, 2008
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StephenB, And yet D'Souza wrote approvingly of removing the words 'impersonal' and 'unsupervised' from a teachers' group position statement regarding the teaching of evolution. (Biology Without Ideology, 4/8/08) I'm not about to say D'Souza is an expert on ID, much less biology in general, but I think two points gain credence. One, whatever he thinks of reconciling 'Darwinism' with God, it doesn't seem that he views evolution as unguided. Two, he recognizes that there is apparently some serious abuse going on with the teaching of evolution, in and out of schools. If 'Darwinism' requires the viewpoint that evolution is unguided, lacking purpose, and truly random - then that aspect of Darwinism is itself not science. "Are you satisfied with noting your objections and allowing ID its rightful place at the table. Or, would you, like the TE community, enforce your objections and try to kill ID even before it enters the arena." I reject any discrimination or hostility towards scientists (or anyone else) who believe design is present in nature. I found what went on with Guillermo Gonzalez to have been a travesty to say the least. At the same time, I don't know what 'rightful place at the table' means. Should YEC arguments be presented in a science classroom? I'm not a YEC, so I'm biased, but I would say no. Should ID arguments? That's trickier. Ideally, I would say no - while at the same time making certain that such classes don't pass off random, purposeless, chance, non-telic 'description' of the process as the stuff of science. Learning about evolution would involve learning that there are forces at work that man cannot predict individually, but that the proposed logic and system functions in such and such ways. Frankly, I think one of the best answers to the whole ID classroom debate is a greater emphasis on home-schooling. I have a dim view of public schooling, and I'm not too impressed with my Catholic school experience either. Beyond that, I'm not sure what you may mean, though. I get the sense that many atheists see science as 'theirs', and that not only should considerations that even vaguely point towards design be downplayed or ignored, but that atheism should somehow be the default view. That I reject entirely. I'm still iffy on reference to the 'TE Community'. I think guys like D'Souza, and many others, are more complicated cases than Ayala is. Even Miller outright admits that his motivation against ID is theological. I cannot decide what to think of Miller's position. Ayala, as I've said before, strikes me as a con man.nullasalus
June 22, 2008
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nullsalus: Dinesh D’Souza, for all his virtues, does not understand intelligent design. Under the circumstances, he is not yet qualified to pass judgment either on the process of a design inference or the rationale behind it. It is clear that he does not understand the point that has been already been made here very well. Christianity and Darwin cannot be reconciled. Is “design” a scientific concept? I believe that it is, and I would be prepared to argue the case if we were discussing that subject matter. You don’t agree, and I assume that you could provide your rationale if I asked you. Fair enough. We can agree do disagree. Most TEs, however, are not content to simply express their objections about the legitimacy of the design inference. They want to institutionalize their disagreement make it a rule of science. Under the aegis of “methodological naturalism,” they seek to discredit ID scientists and define them out of existence. So the real question is this: Are you satisfied with noting your objections and allowing ID its rightful place at the table. Or, would you, like the TE community, enforce your objections and try to kill ID even before it enters the arena.StephenB
June 22, 2008
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crandaddy, Thanks for the link, I have great respect for Platinga as a philosopher. There's a particular part of that entry which stood out to me. Indeed, Michael Behe, a paradigmatic IDer and the star witness for the defense, has repeatedly said that he accepts evolution. What he and his colleagues reject is not evolution as such. What they reject is unguided evolution. They reject the idea that life in all its various forms has come to be by way of the mechanisms favored by contemporary evolutionary theory – unguided, unorchestrated and undirected by God or any other intelligent being. I want to drive this particular point home, even if I'm repeating myself yet again: While I may believe that science cannot reasonably rule on design, casting evolution as 'unguided, unorchestrated, and undirected' is itself a ruling, every bit as much as if it were said to be 'guided, orchestrated, and directed'. It's precisely for this reason that, despite my misgivings about the scientific possibilities of ID, I not only sympathize with their philosophical views, but their larger efforts as well. So long as it's scientific to call evolution and the history of natural science as 'unguided' with no qualification, then I would agree that it is every bit as scientific to rule that evolution is, indeed, guided. You say my view of science is one of methodlogical naturalism, and frankly, I can truly see how anyone would come to have that view about TEs given certain prominent theistic anti-ID types. My response is that naturalism is as much an intrusive force in science as politics and religion. There is no need within the purely scientific discipline to speculate over whether evolution, the Big Bang, or anything else displays or lacks teleology, purpose, design, intelligence, or otherwise. There is absolutely a need to explore that in theological and philosophical circles. So to boil it down, my position is this: ID is borne out of a legitimate gripe with popular representations of science, certainly of evolution and otherwise. I think ID has potential for tremendous success in philosophical spheres (And before discounting the value of this, keep in mind the tremendous influence of philosophers on science, particularly with regards to psychology and otherwise.) And I think the goal of putting naturalism and materialism is a proper one. I just believe that the best way to handle it is to attack the abuse OF the naturalists, and to expand the role of ID in the popular mind.nullasalus
June 22, 2008
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Thomas:
In response to this, TEs could say: “Well, we are Christians, so of course we believe that these apparently chance events were divinely foreordained and therefore are not ultimately chance events. Our goal is not to deny the ultimate agency of God, but only to establish that the design of living things, though certainly in the mind of God at the beginning of the world’s creation, is not humanly DETECTABLE..."
There's another major problem with this TE position, which you didn't bring up. Namely, it trivializes Darwinism, and so is untenable. It's completely trivial to say that the events that led to the existence of humans don't look intended to us. Of course they don't. They happened before we existed, so we can't see them, so they don't look like anything at all. If that's all that Darwinism means, then it's not so much a theory as is a pointless acknowledgment of the fact that we didn't exist before we existed. Also, let's rephrase the premise of Darwinism, such that "random" is replaced with "only looks random", and see what we get:
The species of life, including humans, came about by a process of modifications which seem random to us, selected by environmental factors that weren't directed as far as we can tell.
Notice a problem here? Phrased this way, Darwinism isn't an objective explanation about how the species actually originated, but just a subjective statement about how events that we've never observed seem to us. It's no longer a theory about the outside world, but simply an epistemic statement about our lack of knowledge. Well, maybe I'm way off-base here, but I think that Darwin, and most Darwinists, intend(ed) the theory to be an actual explanation about actual things in the actual world. And here's a further absurdity: It's the premise of Darwin's theory that the obvious appearance of design in life is illusory. That is, design is only apparent. Now, if according to "theistic Darwinism" the randomness of Darwinian evolution is itself only apparent, does that mean that it's only apparent that the design of life is only apparent? What the heck does that even mean? The mind boggles.Deuce
June 22, 2008
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I don't think most TE's actually believe in traditional christianity, therefore the reason they don't find contradiction in embracing God and Darwin is because their God is not the God of traditional Christianity, nor any religion which teaches about an immanent and transcendent, omnipresent, ommnipotent, omniscient supreme being. Most TE's have a view of a God who is not involved very closely or at all with life here on earth, they may speak otherwise so as not to be seen as non-traditionalists. I would bet most of them have a view of God like a George Coyne or Pierre Teilhard de Chardin or something similar. If they didn't they wouldn't be so inimical to ID, especially with their penchant for theological bashing of ID.. It's their theology, I believe, which posists a God who is either far away or too impotent or too impersonal to intercede on earth.mentok
June 22, 2008
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nullasalus, You wrote:
Maybe straight off the bat you should tell me what you consider science to be definition-wise - for myself, I think science is limited to questions that can be posed via repeatable experiments, with a falsifiable hypothesis. Maybe that’s an unreasonable definition, or one you disagree with - I’m willing to be corrected on the point, or at least expand my mind and consider alternative definitions.
You're talking about methodological naturalism. I do think that the proper scope of science is a little broader than that. I like the definition of science that Alvin Plantinga has provided; he could probably explain matters better than I.crandaddy
June 22, 2008
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Again, I want to repeat a view of mine as a TE: While I consider declarations of design or intention in nature to be outside the boundaries of science, I also consider declarations of purposelessness or true chance to be outside the boundaries of science. And I believe that this is a tremendously important point that most TEs, many ID-ers, and just about every ID proponent seem to miss. Dinesh D'Souza has hit on this point in the past as well, and I would ask IDs and TEs alike to think about it in greater detail.nullasalus
June 22, 2008
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-----Avonwatches: "At the end of the post, where it says you cannot be a Christian Darwinist without maintaining a set of paradoxes, the question is which of the beliefs overrides the others?" Precisely, and we already know which way the TEs will go with that one. Among the heavy hitters, a few reject the whole Biblical paradigm, others reject the fall, and the rest either collectivize or challenge the existence of Adam and Eve. They give lip service to two masters, but they serve only one. In every case, they subordinate their Christianity to their Darwinism, and in no case is it the other way around. Of course, their Darwinist colleagues keep quiet about the sell-out and provide cover by characterizing them as “devout” Christians. About the mainstream TEs, I don’t know. I assume that many of them have not been made aware of the contradiction so they don’t feel the need to resolve it by making compromises with their faith. That means that they are not sell-outs to their faith. Being fair minded, they may someday accept the ID paradigm. .StephenB
June 22, 2008
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Jerry, I know that I have had to gaurd against pure pride in my own debates. If we as ID proponents (layman and academic alike) are waiting for conscessions by the opponents, we are going to go nowhere. Dembski and the others need to forget about being given credit for being right, and simply continue to be right. I struggle with this as much as anyone, and feel very unqualified to preach it ... but the fact remains, it is not for our glory. The acidic nature of the disputes is not helpful. The oposition is always going to think we are fools and many will follow them. We must remember that many will listen. The goal is to win souls for eternity, not recognition from the world stuck in time. It's a tough assignment. May God bless us and pour mercy and grace upon our prideful hearts. We can't forget that that is the only reason we know the truth to begin with.Robert Lockett
June 22, 2008
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I was astonished that the plaintiffs in Kitzmiller v. Dover had the brazen hypocrisy to choose a theistic evolutionist, Ken Miller, as their lead expert witness in what was supposed to be a lawsuit seeking enforcement of the so-called separation of church and state! That tactic might have backfired had they gotten a judge who was less prejudiced and less gullible than Judge "Jackass" Jones. The original post says,
You can keep your Christian faith (which incidentally is more highly respected by even non-Christian ID advocates than it is by many of your current colleagues).
Yes, I am surprised that I have taken a liking to fundies like Ken Ham of Answers in Genesis. They make more sense than the Darwinists. Also, we should not forget that there are also non-ID criticisms of evolution.Larry Fafarman
June 22, 2008
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I believe that God does use a seemingly random process / event for His intended will. For theists, we can think about seemingly random events in our lives that when we look back, we thought they don't seem too random anymore and have a purpose. We can also think about how we are conceived and born in this world. Is it merely a random, unguided, survival-of-the-fittest, and 50/50 chance of male/female process, or is God actually involved in the whole conception process to create a specific person for a specific purpose in this world? If evolution is true, then yes, God can use this seemingly random process for His specific will.cmellon
June 22, 2008
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As a TE I see the history of life much like the history of anything. Like Gould, you could argue that rewinding the tape of anything could lead to a different outcome. (world history, weather, our own births, etc.) Either God's involved with all of it or God's involved with none of it. I don't see how it's theologically sound to say God has to work against nature's natural course. (which God set in place in the first place)Fross
June 22, 2008
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@9. Oh, actually I don't agree with the "marketing" thing. It would just confuse two completely different hypotheses. ================= (On-topic) Excellent post. The problem lies in the motivation to marry theology and darwinist evolution together. As is written: "You cannot serve two masters, for you will love one and hate the other". I guess it's a question of which one is more important: faith, or a human (and flawed) theory. Which one is fitting into which? At the end of the post, where it says you cannot be a Christian Darwinist without maintaining a set of paradoxes, the question is which of the beliefs overrides the others?Avonwatches
June 22, 2008
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The person to respond to this is Ted Davis if he comes back to this site. He can probably best represent the TE's at ASA with out too much contentious language.jerry
June 22, 2008
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Avonwatches, I am glad you agree with us. But I will stop it here since this thread is about theistic evolution.jerry
June 22, 2008
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@5 and @7: Darwinian MICRO-evolution is well accepted and documented (e.g. Anthelmintic resistance in parasites, MR-Staph bacteria in hospitals). Darwin got this right, and IDists do not contend this (to my knowledge). Intelligent design is not about micro-evolution. However, the MACRO-evolution of entirely new species or structures is absent of any proof, either in real-world evidence (i.e. fossil records do not support Darwinian macro-evolution, no records of a novel biological structure being produced), nor theoretical proof (i.e. Darwinian mechanisms only degrade or alter existing genetic information; they do not create new information). Darwin was definitely not right about macro-evolution (name a single structure/species produced by Darwinian evolution).Avonwatches
June 22, 2008
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Robert Lockett, you said "Darwin’s theory is perfectly scientific and only needs to be altered to accomodate the new discoveries. Let’s face it… Darwin was right! Creatures are evolving (ie. adapting) to a changing environment. But it is moving in the wrong direction. I am no public relations expert, but that is what will sell, and that is what the truth is. It’s simple, and people get it." I have been trying to convince people here of this for months and it falls on deaf ears. You can not present anything with Darwin's name on it in a positive light here even if it will reinforce the ID position. Many of the people here have agendas just as the TE's and Darwinists do and as such have little interest in the truth let alone how to sell the truth to the general public.jerry
June 22, 2008
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