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Theology corner: Why is the ID guy at the open theology conference a pork chop at a Jewish wedding?

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Recently, a caffeine-deprived friend was grousing about the fact that ID proponents don’t tend to be welcomed at “open theology” conferences.

“Open theology” implies a much more limited sort of God than the Immortal, invisible, God only wise of the Western monotheist (Jewish, Christian, Muslim) tradition.

Now, it’s unclear to me why the ID guys, who are mostly hard math and science types, should even want to hang out with these children of a lesser god. But my friend insisted on hearing the view from O’Leary’s Point, so here goes. And I have followed it up with a testable prediction, too:

First, what is theistic evolution? Basically, its message is this: Our God is so powerful that you can see no evidence of his presence in the creation of life (though, for some reason, you can see such evidence if you look at outer space). That’s genome mapper Francis Collins’ approach.

As a traditional Christian, I am handicapped in even considering theistic evolution (TE), not because I have a problem with evolution as such, but by the many places in Scripture where the whole creation, including life – together with its imperfections – is said to provide evidence of God’s work. Forced to choose, I consider the TEs more likely to be wrong than the Scriptures.

Now, TE is marketed to Christians mainly as an escape from, say, Kent Hovind vs. Lenny Flank. Many would rather spend an evening watching catfights in the back alley.

The devil, however, is in the details. Pressed to explain why God’s work is not evident in the design of life, the theistic evolutionist announces that Darwin’s theory explains how life comes into existence and develops into the plenitude of forms that we see today without any input from God.

But strangely, while life forms, which are staggeringly complex, can easily perform such a feat, the cosmos itself cannot. No no, the typical theistic evolutionist protests, that couldn’t be done without God. The universe is fine-tuned for life to come into existence.

Yet many cosmologists think the cosmos can do just that. And their evidence is no better or worse than the Darwinists’ evidence. Like the Darwinists, these cosmologists start with their conclusion and place enormous weight on some pretty slender branches of evidence. Then they command you to believe because materialism is true.

(Materialists are like all other sects, except for one critical difference: They generally do not hold out a collection plate or wave a sign on the street. They scalp your tax money to promote their philosophy in the school system and make your kids study from their books.)

So now what becomes of our dear old theistic evolution?

Well, up to now, we have been making certain assumptions about God, right? “Immortal, invisible, God only wise … ” as the old song goes. We have assumed that we must decide between that God or no God.

And if we decide that the evidence from nature favours an omnipotent God, we must treat the Scriptural accounts as evidence too. We do not have to accept the Scriptures in a fundamentalist way, but we must consider them evidence. That means we must confront the fact that Scripture insists that God’s hand IS evident in the design of life. So we should not be surprised to find such evidence, any more than we should be surprised to find that the cosmos is apparently fine-tuned for life. There is no reason in either case to feel compelled to explain away the evidence as arising accidentally from brute forces – let alone to accept large promises from the materialists that some day someone will prove such a proposition.

Materialists can currently compel your tax money, but they cannot compel you to accept their IOUs. Not yet, anyway.

So bye, bye TE. Put simply, what TE is trying to do doesn’t need doing. So it has morphed mainly into an opposition to ID – an opposition which becomes less and less coherent as the materialist agenda becomes more obvious.

For example, one often hears TE’s blaming the ID folk for starting trouble with materialists. Which raises the question of why they themselves haven’t. With arch-Darwinist Dawkins planning to mail tons of anti-God crapola to Brit schools and an evolutionary biologist declaring that ID-sympathetic students should be flunked, the TEs are merely making their irrelevance plain to everyone.

But there is another possibility! Some reluctantly agree with ID that there is evidence for God – but guess what, he is NOT the God portrayed in Scripture. He bungles. He goofs. He’s kinda smart, but he doesn’t know what’s going to happen.

What difference does that make? Well, if you got struck blind, the open God would say, “Crikey! What bad luck! I shoulda seen that coming, Awful sorry there, fella, I wasn’t paying attention …. Tell you what, I’ll … ”

He would NOT say “Who gives [man] sight or makes him blind? Is it not I, the LORD?” and inform you, with no further explanation, of your next tour of duty.

Okay, so where are we now? We have a god. Actually, why be exclusivist? We could have lots of gods. We could be back in pagan culture, with the lovable and irresponsible gods. They don’t damn people, because they don’t give a damn – but they do damage them. They are divinized celebrities. Watch the Ring Cycle and you will get the idea, especially Gotterdammitall, where the gods go up in smoke.

So, why might my ID friend’s theology-prone buddies not be welcome at open theology conferences? Well, open theologians are their competitors! Open theologians can make the same claims as ID. They can  go ahead and attribute the design of life, alongwith its apparent flaws, to the equivalent of Wotan or – better yet – to an anthropomorphized force.

Darwin, meet Carl Jung.

See, as materialism slowly throttles itself, anyone with a non-materialist idea sees an opportunity. It’ll be wild and woolly.

Conclusion: If ID were not so closely associated with a traditional “Almighty” concept of God, ID guys would be more welcome at open theo conferences.

Testable prediction:  The open-ists will probably permit the hearty priestesses of Gaia to declaim, and now and then they will host a pundit known as something like Thundercloud who claims to be a male witch, and assures you that he is in touch with himself, or some part of himself ….

Go ahead, I told my friend. Call me wrong – until they actually do it. Meanwhile, let the professoriat hold forth with predictions that do not come true – for example that the Dover trial was a curtain call for ID.

Now, for me, back to journalism. For him, back to teaching.

Comments
As one of the open theists who will be participating at the "Open Theology and Science" conference, I have two points to make. First, many open theists, like myself, are proponents of ID, both cosmic and biological. Second, Denyse's characterization of open theism as being committed to a "limited" or "lesser god" that "bungles" and "goofs" is nothing short of an out-and-out straw man. Open theists are committed to a robust monotheism that ascribes to God maximal knowledge, power, and goodness. The view is fully compatible with divine omniscience, understood as knowing all and only truths (as I argue in forthcoming article in Faith and Philosophy). It is also compatible with divine sovereignty, because the world is exactly as open - no more, no less - than God wants it to be.Alan Rhoda
November 30, 2006
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Hi Paul, "In principal I don’t think ID and TE is very far apart. The amount of fine-tuning required by an out of this universe intelligence is about equal in both hypotheses." This seems right at a first look, but both parties seem to hold that there are different and significant elements between their respective philosophies. One of the those elements is that some, perhaps many, Christian IDists do not believe in common descent. This puts a vast gulf between them and TE's.bj
November 30, 2006
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Excellent, Denyse!tribune7
November 30, 2006
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bj, denyse, and whoever else, If I remember correctly, TEs generally believe humans are set apart from other species in terms of their relationship with God. It seems reasonable and consistent to me to believe that God may have no need to intervening the process he originated until a species came along which God has ordained to have a special relationship with. At that time, miracles and divine intervention are to be expected from time to time. Having said that, TEs also believe that nature itself is the creation of God, and that what God does, is often what occurs through natural processes. Perhaps the universe is even more fine-tuned that biological IDists would admit to, because the fine-tuning of the cosmos that TEs believe is advanced enough to permit evolution and the origins of man, whereas biological IDists believe that the origins of man requires more continual intervention (perhaps due to lack of fine-tuning). In principal I don't think ID and TE is very far apart. The amount of fine-tuning required by an out of this universe intelligence is about equal in both hypotheses.Paul Brand
November 30, 2006
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Denyse, You have made the essential point. Christian IDists start with a conception of God created in them by the scriptures. The Christian God is a certain kind of God. As you say, a God who will leave tracks. On the other hand, the God of theistic evolution doesn't leave tracks or if he/she/it/them does, it's in the creation of the universe-initial conditions which inexorably lead to life. These are two different Gods. For a long time I didn't understand the antipathy I saw from IDists to TE's. But, your really talking about two different Gods, and Christian IDists don't believe the God of the TE's is the God of the bible.bj
November 30, 2006
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antg, You are correct about Robin Collins. Robin Collins is a TE, and a fellow of the DI. (He happens to have a very good essay on atonement theory, which has helped illuminate my Christian faith to a large degree). It seems that some in the DI are welcoming of cosmological IDists even if they believe in evolution. I think Salvador's thoughts on Francis Collins is at least one example of someone who greatly appreciates the contributions of cordial TEs, but there are others who think the Big Tent, is too big. Others appear to be somewhat antagonistic towards people like Francis Collins. Any relation between Francis Collins and Robin Collins? I greatly respect them both.Paul Brand
November 30, 2006
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"As a traditional Christian, I am handicapped in even considering theistic evolution (TE), not because I have a problem with evolution as such, but by the many places in Scripture where the whole creation, including life - together with its imperfections - is said to provide evidence of God’s work. Forced to choose, I consider the TEs more likely to be wrong than the Scriptures." How do you tell that the two options are mutually exclusive? Do TEs in general suggest the Scriptures are wrong? "Yet many cosmologists think the cosmos can do just that. And their evidence is no better or worse than the Darwinists’ evidence. Like the Darwinists, these cosmologists start with their conclusion and place enormous weight on some pretty slender branches of evidence. Then they command you to believe because materialism is true." Is string theory science? Is multiple universe theory science? A materialist gives possible explanations as to how the universe could have formed. But unless their theories are falsifiable and make verifiable predictions, I don't think it is science, and I don't think the scientific community thinks it is science either. I don't think anyone has trouble with the idea that evolution is falsifiable. IDists show their evidence that falsifies it. Evolutionists show how their evidence verifies their predictions. To me, it seems that there is no question as to whether evolution is falsifiable, but I don't get the same sense regarding multiverse theory or string theory. (Well, I don't know a lot about string theory, but I've heard a lot of people suggest it isn't science). ---- More about multiverses. Suppose a different universe exists with different physical laws and constants. In addition this hypothetical universe is very fine tuned, even more so than ours. Let's further say it has more physical dimensions, more time dimensions, amongst other amazing characteristics I cannot even imagine. The more I think about it, the more I realize how analogous such a universe would be to the spiritual realm. When we use the term "supernatural", we really mean an order of things that are alien to our universe. In that sense, a different universe is also supernatural. Or, I sometimes think, why don't we just say that the spiritual realm is natural, just like people would say a different universe is natural? It seems to me that multiverse theory isn't any more scientific than Christian theology.Paul Brand
November 30, 2006
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I would also add that a link up between ID and Gaia proponents would be a great acid test as to whether ID is wedded to Christian theology or not. As Denyse intimated, Gaia is often strongly associated with new-age philosophy.antg
November 30, 2006
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Denyse, I am struggling to understand what you are getting at but I note from the link that Robin Collins is a participant and he is quite involved in ID - isn't he a fellow of the DI? Also you mention Gaia. I believe that there is rich potential for synergy between ID and Gaia proponents. The Gaia hypothesis (aka 'earth systems science' in the US) could easily be reinterpeted as say 'planetary ID'. They have done hard work in establishing themselves as a scientific discipline (albeit not a mainstream one). This could serve as a good model for ID. An interesting thing they have in common is that both ideas are despised by Darwinists because they are teleological. James Lovelock's The Revenge of Gaia has some interesting snippets about Darwinian opposition to their early ideas.antg
November 30, 2006
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"Materialists are like all other sects, except for one critical difference: They generally do not hold out a collection plate or wave a sign on the street. They scalp your tax money to promote their philosophy in the school system and make your kids study from their books." Great Stuff!William Dembski
November 30, 2006
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