Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

There are more things in heaven and earth, Paul, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

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It’s funny how Paul Myers, Richard Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, et al say that evolution isn’t about religion yet you can’t swing a dead cat without hitting one of their rants on religion. But that’s not the point of this article.

I have a problem with these people in that they arbitrarily limit what science can potentially explain. The so called supernatural remains supernatural only as long as there’s no metric by which to measure it. Once a metric is discovered the supernatural becomes the natural.

Paul quotes someone on the virgin birth of Christ saying that it defies everything science has revealed in regard to mammalian reproduction. This is utter dreck. Even (especially!) Myers should know that meiosis is a two stage process wherein the first stage results in the production of two perfectly viable diploid cells. The second stage of meiosis then splits these two cells into four haploid gametes. Interrupting the process at the completion of the first stage results in parthenogenesis. Indeed, there are number of organisms in nature that have lost the second stage of meiosis and now reproduce parthenogenetically. See here for more detail. Moreover, it has also been scientifically established that an XX genome can produce phenotypical male offspring. Morever, while all observed XX males in humans are sterile, pathenogenetic populations can still reproduce sexually if sexual reproduction still exists in the species (Da Vinci Code fans will be happy to know this). While it was widely believed that mammals had completely lost the ability for parthenogenetic reproduction, in 2004 researchers in Tokyo managed to create viable parthenogenetic mice. So Paul, science now reveals that the virgin birth of a human male is quite possible. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. What I want to know now is whether ignorance or dishonesty explains why you’d quote someone who claims the virgin birth of Christ defies everything we know about mammalian reproduction. Neither explanation becomes you of course and it gives me immeasurable delight to put you in the proverbial position of choosing between a rock and a hard place. 😆

The next thing I’d like to debunk in Paul’s latest diatribe is his assertion that matter and energy is all that exists in the universe and science can explain it all without reverting to anything else.

The latest findings in cosmology are that the universe is composed of 5% visible matter, 20% dark matter, and 75% dark energy. The theory of gravity applied to the visible matter and energy in our solar system and local region of the galaxy predicts with exquisite precision the motion of visible bodies. However, when applied to larger structures such as our galaxy and our local galactic cluster the predictions break down. In order to explain those motions there must be 5 times the amount of visible matter existing in some form of normal matter that is not visible. That’s not very incredible and many hypothesis based on known physics are on the table to characterize the dark matter component. See here for more detail. What’s more bizarre is that recently it was discovered that in the universe writ large (relative motions of galactic clusters) it is revealed that the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate. This was not predicted by the theory of gravity and the amount of matter and energy inferred from the motion of local galaxies. In point of fact there must be something completely unknown going on in the universe. 75% of the “stuff” which makes up the universe is an unknown coined dark energy that diffuses the universe.

So you see, Paul, matter and energy that we know about are only a small fraction of what makes the universe go ’round, so to speak. Who’s to say at this point in time that this huge amount of unknown “stuff” is incapable of organization that produces intelligence? Could God be lurking in the dark energy of the universe? Can science investigate the nature of dark energy? You bet it can. The jury is still out, Paul. You don’t know half what you think you know about the nature of nature nor of what you presume to be the bounds of science’s capacity to investigate it. Hence the subject line of this article.

Update: It has been suggested in the commentary from Professor of Biology Allen MacNeil of Cornell that I don’t know what I’m talking about regarding meiosis in that there is no stage wherein 2 diploid cells are present. I present to you The Phases of Meiosis from Biology 032 at Brown University.

Meiosis begins with Interphase I. During this phase there is a duplication genetic material, DNA replication. Cells go from being 2N, 2C (N= chromosome content, C = DNA content) to 2N, 4C.

further down

In Cytokinesis I, the cells finally split, with one copy of each chromosome in each one. Each of the two resulting cells is now 2N, 2C.

Now I don’t know exactly where the good Professor MacNeil learned his elementary cell biology but where I did a 2n,2c cell is a diploid cell with the normal diploid chromosome count (2n) and the normal amount of DNA (2c). But I’d like thank the professor for keeping on my toes. For a moment there I’d thought I’d had a senior moment and forgotten basic things I learned 30 years ago.

Update 2: The preponderance of literature calls the intermediate cells 1N,2C. This appears to be just semantics. The cells contain 1n unique chromosomes but 2n total chromosomes. I can’t find a definition of “diploid” anywhere that says two identical paired chromosomes only counts as one chromosome. The situation is 23 paired chromosomes that are 100% homozygous. It’s still diploid except perhaps to a pedant.

Comments
Ah, looky here! The London Zoo documents the first known virgin birth of a komodo dragon. http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/discoveries/2006-12-20-komodo-virgin_x.htmJehu
December 20, 2006
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Joseph, Keep fighting the good fight. Hope everyone had an excellent Thanksgiving. It appears this turned into a robust discussion. I thought the latest findings of Neandertal were interesting. It appears they were merely humans all along? The thing about history and picking apart bones is much is left to willful interpretation. Genetic isolation and myriad other issues, disease, and environment can lead to skeletal features that appear in a wide variety. I'm still waiting to find out about Frodo the Hobbit(Flores). The finding was supposed to be a slam dunk. Now, it appears nothing more than a diseased and isolated branch of humans. Go to North Korea today and see the result of lack of diet and disease on skeletal remains. There is a long way still to go to prove with absolute certainty a chimp to man jump. And the other issues is how the mechanisms work within the cell and in communication. Design does not go away on mere assumptions of the past.Michaels7
November 28, 2006
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DaveScot: What would it take to convince you that humans and chimps share a common ancestor? The same as it has always been- demonstrate that we know what makes an organism what it is beyond the following:
The scientist enjoys a privilege denied the theologian. To any question, even one central to his theories, he may reply “I’m sorry but I do not know.” This is the only honest answer to the question posed by the title of this chapter. We are fully aware of what makes a flower red rather than white, what it is that prevents a dwarf from growing taller, or what goes wrong in a paraplegic or a thalassemic. But the mystery of species eludes us, and we have made no progress beyond what we already have long known, namely, that a kitty is born because its mother was a she-cat that mated with a tom, and that a fly emerges as a fly larva from a fly egg.-- geneticist Giuseppe Sermonti
Denton tells us that although genes may influence every aspect of development they do not determine it. So if genes do not determine what makes an organism what it is, and DNA is also not "it" (because we do observe organisms with the same DNA take on varying identities), how can we objectively test the premise (that humans and chimps shared a common ancestor)? It would be helpful if someone could start accounting for the differences. Similarities can be accounted for by any number of explanations. Then there is still that obstacle of observed wobbling stability. I also say that looking at a genome the way we do is like trying to understand a C++ program by looking at the ones and zeros on the data bus.Joseph
November 28, 2006
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Joseph What would it take to convince you that humans and chimps share a common ancestor? I suspect you're beyond reasoning with when it comes to these things.DaveScot
November 28, 2006
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Allen MacNeil: By itself, it would not be. However, when combined with the well-established observation that humans and chimps share over 98% of the same genetic information, and that essentialy the same genes are located in the same positions along the chromosomes, except for those that are located in human chromosome #2 (and its ape homolog, in which the the same genes are located in the same order, but in a separate chromosome), plus all of the phenotypic similarities, plus the fossil evidence (i.e. Dryapithecus, Ramapithecus, etc.), there is overwhelming evidence from multiple independent sources all pointing to the same inference: that humans and chimps shared a common ancestor that lived somewhere around 6 million years ago (or less, if some of the more recent fossil and genomic evidence is factored in). Fossil evidence is in the eye of the beholder. And where are the fossils of the chimp or ape lineage? And I don't think that 98% similarity is real. But even if it were I know I could create two long senetences with 98% similarity and yet those sentences will have different meanings. The same can be done with computer codes. And now that we know about alternate gene splicing, sequence may not mean as much as it once did. And why is it that organs from other animals- not chimps- are better suited to be used in humans? That should count against the alleged common ancestry. Also I doubt the designer has anything to do with deceit. I would again say that is in the eye of the beholder. IOW people who believe in Common Descent are fooling themselves by insisting they know what should be observed if Common Descent were indicative of reality. Yet in reality we don't have a clue. People who focus on the similarities between alleged divergent populations miss the point. It is the differences that must be explained: Chimps & Humans- DNA does NOT explain the differences So to sum up if something looks like common ancestry it is scientific evidence for that. However if something looks designed we still have to provide the designer and the process before that can be accepted as scientific evidence for ID. I think we are making progress.Joseph
November 28, 2006
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DaveScot: Great similarity in junk dna (non-coding, unconserved) between chimps and humans is the most compelling evidence of common ancestry. That is ONLY IF DNA is the sole "entity" which makes an organism what it is. However we know that isn't so. What hasn't been explained is what caused the differences we see. For example we don't even know if selected mutations can allow for upright walking.Joseph
November 28, 2006
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Allen By the way, I found a paper talking about successful meiosis with mismatched chromosomes. As a general rule fertility is at least reduced and often reduced to sterility from chomosome mismatches in meiosis. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v422/n6927/full/nature01418.html Also I did a little checking on fertility in those with Down's syndrome. Women with Downs are reported as 50% able to become pregnant but men with Downs are very near 100% sterile.DaveScot
November 28, 2006
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Allen If chromosomal reorganization can result in the expression of new species with significant taxonomic differences it overcomes a major objection to the front-loading hypothesis of ID. The objection is that unexpressed genomic information would be under no selection pressure and therefore would be obliterated by random mutation over geologic timespans. If position effect is the big kahuna in species diversity then the potential rearrangments of highly conserved regions is how the unexpressed forms are conserved. Not proof of a front-loaded genome certainly but another drop in the bucket of things that fit well with it.DaveScot
November 28, 2006
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Joseph Great similarity in junk dna (non-coding, unconserved) between chimps and humans is the most compelling evidence of common ancestry.DaveScot
November 28, 2006
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Dave: You also mention in your scenario that speciation by the kinds of mechanisms that we are discussing would appear to be saltatory when viewed in the fossil record. That's interesting, because that is indeed what the fossil record of speciation looks like for quite a few phylogenetic lines. This was Eldredge and Gould's point in their paper on punctuated equilibrium, published in 1972. Since then, quite a bit of evidence has accumulated to support their model, and with the new discoveries in evo-devo, genetic/developmental mechanisms have also been discovered that can explain the surprisingly rapid shifts in phenotype and function seen in nature (the Lake Victoria cichlids come to mind). And, as an evolutionary biologist, I would like to point out that all of the foregoing mechanisms for descent with modification are purely "natural;" that is, they do not require intervention by an "intelligent agent" that "tweaks" the laws of nature. Yes, it does go against some of the central tenets of the "modern evolutionary synthesis" of the 1930s-1950s, but what branch of the natural sciences hasn't changed as much in the last half century?Allen_MacNeill
November 27, 2006
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In comment #115, DaveScot asked: "Follow?" And I answer: Yes, indeed. The mechanism that you describe is essentially the mechanism that I have proposed. Perhaps I didn't make it as clear as a I could, but I find it gratifying that we both have now come to the same conclusion as to the overall mechanism and its implications. And in comment #117, Joseph asked: "Why would the fusion observed in human chromosome 2 be evidence for a chimp/ human common ancestry and not just that modern humans once had human ancestors with more chromosomes?" By itself, it would not be. However, when combined with the well-established observation that humans and chimps share over 98% of the same genetic information, and that essentialy the same genes are located in the same positions along the chromosomes, except for those that are located in human chromosome #2 (and its ape homolog, in which the the same genes are located in the same order, but in a separate chromosome), plus all of the phenotypic similarities, plus the fossil evidence (i.e. Dryapithecus, Ramapithecus, etc.), there is overwhelming evidence from multiple independent sources all pointing to the same inference: that humans and chimps shared a common ancestor that lived somewhere around 6 million years ago (or less, if some of the more recent fossil and genomic evidence is factored in). Now, one might argue that each of these lines of evidence might somehow be either mistaken or the result of an intelligent designer with sufficient magical powers to shape reality to look as if it had the properties (age, etc.) that it appears to have, but if such a designer existed and had such powers, S/He would be using them to produce the appearance of common ancestry between apes and humans, without such ancestry being, in fact, the case. Personally, I don't want to have to believe in a designer with such a penchant for deliberate deceit, and luckily (as an evolutionary biologist) I don't have to.Allen_MacNeill
November 27, 2006
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Why would the fusion observed in human chromosome 2 be evidence for a chimp/ human common ancestry and not just that modern humans once had human ancestors with more chromosomes? In order for that to be used as evidence for a chimp/ human common ancestry one would have to demonstrate the differences observed can be accounted for by the culling of mutations.Joseph
November 27, 2006
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For Faid at ATBC chromatid
One of the two side by side replicas produced by chromosome replication in mitosis or meiosis. Subunit of a chromosome after replication and prior to anaphase of meiosis II or mitosis. At anaphase of meiosis II or mitosis when the centromeres divide and the sister chromatids separate each chromatid becomes a chromosome.
Any questions? DaveScot
November 26, 2006
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Allen I think we might still not be quite on the same page. In my scenario the parents never have the reorganized genome in somatic cells. They carry a mutation that results in the reorganization occuring in some percentage of their gametes. The reorganization could occur in the second stage of meoisis. That way you don't run into the problem of meiosis being exceeding difficult because of a mismatch in chromosome count. The chromosome count changes only in the haploid gametes at the last instant of gametogenesis. The mutation which causes the reorganization during meiosis can can propagate a long time until a significant percentage of the population is producing a small percentage of gametes with the fusion (or translocation or whatever). Since the majority of the gametes would be normal the species would continue as before as mating would usually produce offspring with the normal count. Some smaller percentage of offspring would be sterile hybrids and, here's the key, a still smaller percentage of offspring would be homozygous for the fusion and quite fertile. Those individuals would be a new species. A few of those homozygous individuals could then meet up, all their offspring would be homozygous for the fusion, and it's off to the races for the new species. This way there doesn't have to ever be a single fertile hybrid. The question then becomes finding (or genetically engineering) an otherwise perfectly fertile animal that doesn't have the fusion in somatic cells but dependably produces some percentage of gametes (10% or more would be good enough) with the fusion. I'm just using fusion for brevity. It could be any chromosomal reorganization, even something quite large scale, as long as it's an identical reorganization. It doesn't seem like much of stretch for there to be the possibility of some small mutation which causes the second stage of meiosis to produce a small percentage of gametes which exhibit an identical pattern of reorganization in the chromosomes. One tiny mutation that only effects the second stage of meiosis thus causes speciation in just a handful of generations. It would appear as saltation in the fossil record even though it might take ten generations or so for enough members of the new species to build up so they have a good chance of meeting up to form a breeding population. There also wouldn't be any close inbreeding as the homozygous individuals would be produced by parents that aren't any closer related than normal for the species. Follow?DaveScot
November 25, 2006
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In comment #112 DaveScot wrote: "However, I think once you find or show how to create such an animal there’s no longer any need for semi-meiosis as normal meiosis will work to establish the new species as long as the percentage of gametes carrying the reorganization produced by the parent species is up around 10% or more." Exactly right, and this is why I have proposed that the easiest (and most likely) way for this to happen is for the offspring of an indivual with a chromolocal mutation simply mate with each other. Since posting this hypothesis, a reader of my blog has posted a bibliographic reference to an alternative theory, based in this case on inversion mutations, rather than including all chromolocal mutations (i.e. fissions, fusion, inversions, and translocations). Here is a link to the reference: http://www.bioone.org/perlserv/?request=get-abstract&doi=10.1554%2F0014-3820(2003)057%5B0447%3AAPIGIP%5D2.0.CO%3B2 Unfortunately, I cannot locate an electronic version of this article that does not require paying for the priviledge. If I find one, I will let you know on this thread.Allen_MacNeill
November 25, 2006
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This is interesting speculation. And it has a fascinating corrollary: if this was the mechanism of Jesus’ birth, such that he had XX chromosomes, he was not properly biologically male. So much for those who insist on the theological significance of Jesus’ maleness. But if anyone is looking for a naturalistic explanation of a virgin birth, the following seems more plausible to me. I don’t know what girls in Mary’s time used as sanitary towels. But if Mary accidentally (in God’s providence) used a towel which was contaminated with human semen, a stray sperm could have found its way into her womb and fertilised her egg. I guess this may have happened rather more often than the apparent uniqueness of the virgin birth suggests, but many of the girls it happened to would have been condemned as prostitutes. After all it took divine intervention (Matthew 1:20) for Joseph to accept Mary. Thus at the cell level Jesus’ conception would have been normal, but without normal sexual intercourse, and Jesus would have been a biologically normal male. And in terms which would have meant anything to the biblical authors, Mary would have been a virgin. So the miracle might have been only in the timing, this rare form of apparent virgin birth having coincided with Mary’s vision of the angel Gabriel (Luke 1:26-38). Well, I’m not sure if we need to look for a non-miraculous explanation, but my one seems to fit the bill rather better than Dave’s one.PeterKirk
November 25, 2006
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Come to think of it, the animal described above sounds like the same animal Davison wants to work with - one that is hetereozygous for chromosome reorganizations. However, I think once you find or show how to create such an animal there's no longer any need for semi-meiosis as normal meiosis will work to establish the new species as long as the percentage of gametes carrying the reorganization produced by the parent species is up around 10% or more. Probability examples of new species establishment by % gamete production carrying the identical reorganization: 00.1% is a 1/10^12 chance 01.0% is a 1/10^8 chance 10.0% is a 1/10^4 chance 20.0% is a 1/625 chance 33.0% is a 1/81 chance 50.0% is a 1/16 chance Those might not be quite correct since it's not even a cocktail napkin calculation but it should be close enough to show the correct shape of the curve.DaveScot
November 25, 2006
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Allen Therefore, selection on the basis of fertility alone would tend to cause these two groups to diverge Absolutely. That's obvious. The new species, especially if the chromosome relocation has survival advantage, can take off like a banshee once two homozygous individuals come together. The question in my mind has always been how two individuals (male and female) homozygous for the chromosome reorganization are generated in sufficient number so there's a reasonable chance of them finding each other in large populations where the vast majority of breeding partners will produce progeny with hybrid infertility. I would put forward the chances are vastly improved if there's some very marked predisposition for the chromosomal reorganization to spontaneously appear during gametogenesis in the parent species. Suppose some random point mutation (let's say it's selectively neutral) in an individual causes meoisis in that individual to produce a chromosome fusion in 25% of its gametes. The fusion wouldn't propagate because of hybrid infertility but the neutral mutation that causes the excessive number of fusions during gametogenesis would propagate. After a small number of generations you'd have a large number of individuals producing 25% of its gametes with the fusion. Then the chance of two of those gametes coming together to produce individuals homozygous for the fusion is quite good. Davison's hypothesis gets around this by postulating that meiosis interruptus (so to speak) directly produces individuals (both male and female) homozygous for the chromosome reorganization. Now that I think about it, the method outlined above where a random point mutation causes a significant fraction of spontaneous reorganizations during gametogenesis is a more likely explanation. Experimental support would be obtained by finding or engineering an organism whose gametes carry a significant percentage of identical chromosomal reorganizations.DaveScot
November 25, 2006
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DaveScot wrote: "So the first animal with the fused chromosome (fused by random mutation instead of inherited) isn’t really infertile. " You are quite right, and I was being obtuse in not understanding your objection. Translocations do not render meiosis impossible, only somewhat more difficult in most cases. To be precise, an individual that has a normal set of chromosomes and a set with a translocation will have somewhat more difficulty producing haploid gametes via meiosis than an individual that has the same number of chromosomes in each set. This is why I proposed that, once there were offspring from an individual that had a chromolocal fusion mutation, the offspring that were homozygous for either the normal complement (48, in the case of apes) or the fusion complement (i.e. 46) would almost certainly be more fertile than individuals that had one of each set (i.e. had a total of 47 chromosomes). Therefore, selection on the basis of fertility alone would tend to cause these two groups to diverge (i.e. the individuals with 47 chromosomes would consistently have fewer offspring than those that were homozygous for either 48 or 46 chromosomes. Such selection would be enhanced if there were any phenotypic differences between the 48-chromosome and 46-chromosome subpopulations, as the individuals in those subpopulations could then use such differences as guides for choosing mates, on the basis of higher fertility. Such sexual selection is rampant among animals, especially vertebrates, in which females choose potential male mates on the basis of their phenotypic characteristics. For the sake of completeness, I here note that my explanation for the diffusion of chromolocal mutations works least well for explaining the diffusion of inversion mutations. The reason for this is that inversions, unlike fission, fusion, and translocation mutations, result in chromosomes that have a great deal of difficulty pairing up during prophase I of meiosis. There may be a way around this (having to do with regions of the chromosome that do not necessarily pair up, probably as the result of a high proportion of non-coding nucleotide sequences - that is, so-called "junk" or "spacer" DNA), but I don't know enough chromosomal genetics to be able to speculate intelligently on this problem). Another interesting correlation with my hypothesis is with Lynn Margulis's theory of the origin of species by means of acquiring genomes, primarily as the result of endosymbiosis. Lynn has focussed her proposed model for speciation on clear-cut examples of symbiosis that have resulted in speciation. However, her general principle - that of acquiring new genetic material - can just as easily be generalized to acquiring new genonmic arrangements as the result of chromolocal mutation. I intent to correspond with her on this subject in the near future, and will report her answers at my blog: http://evolutionlist.blogspot.com.Allen_MacNeill
November 25, 2006
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Allen: When these gametes are combined with normal gametes from another individual following mating, the result would be that half of the offspring would have 48 chromosomes (the normal “ape” number) and half would have 47. That’s not true. Females- one egg, 3 polar bodies from one meiosis cycle. The polar bodies will never become an egg. If the female is a diploid 48 that isn’t an issue. If the female is a diploid 47 the prediction of 50% being this or that is nothing more than a guess. And that is just in the number of viable female eggs produced And there is more. If the male is diploid 47, female is diploid 48- Even when every female egg will be haploid 24, is there really a 50% chance a haploid 24 sperm will fertilize it? I am pretty sure it isn’t that nicely divided. Male is diploid 47, female is diploid 47- Female drops a haploid 24 egg, what prevents a haploid 23 sperm from fertilizing it first- that is before a haploid 24 sperm from the same donor (or other) does the trick? That should give us the possibility of more diploid 47s. Female drops a H23 and the male deposits mostly H24s. More possibilities of diploid 47s.Joseph
November 25, 2006
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I was just reading that sequence myself, DaveScot. I was pondering bringing it up but the humiliation of my ratio saga left me gunshy. Your quote in 92 continues:
They just can’t produce fertile offspring, as the mutation would interfere with meiotic gamete formation. However, the offspring of such a cross would not face such a difficulty, as they would all share the same mutation (this would also be true for such offspring and their parent who had the original mutation).
Are the offspring in both sentences not the same creatures? Can the offspring form gametes via meiosis or not?Charlie
November 24, 2006
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In comment 71 Allen said:
However, chromosome fusions, fissions, and inversions all have one very important effect: they render meiosis difficult or impossible in a hybrid.
In comment 92 Allen said:
Indeed, that is exactly what I am suggesting. As long as there is no serious developmental problems, an individual with a chromolocal mutation can easily interbreed with an individual lacking such a mutation. They just can’t produce fertile offspring, as the mutation would interfere with meiotic gamete formation.
In comment 102 Allen finally admits:
During meiosis in this individual, the fused chromosome (#2+3) could pair up with the unattached #2 and #3 (such pairings are possible and have been observed in nature and in the lab), and then the two sets of chromosomes would be segregated into the first division daughter cells.
So the first animal with the fused chromosome (fused by random mutation instead of inherited) isn't really infertile. I've been trying to tease this admission out of Allen for the longest time in this thread. His hypothesis made no sense at all if meiosis wasn't possible with a mismatched chromosome count. My next question is just how possible is it and where in the literature may we find this documented?DaveScot
November 24, 2006
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Pitiful. I mean 9:6:1. I forgot to breed the 47 and 48 a second time. Should have quit while I was behind.Charlie
November 24, 2006
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I can't read my own scribbling. Where a 48-chromosome individual can breed with another 48 or a 47, and the 47 can breed with another 47 or the 48, isn't the next generation ratio of 48:47:46 actually 7:4:1?Charlie
November 24, 2006
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Allen, If half the offspring have 48 chromosomes and half 47, and the offspring are inbreeding freely (but inbreeding exclusively) then isn't the ratio in the next generation 3:2:1 for 48-chromosome individuals: 47-chromosome individuals:46 chromosome individuals? Are you presuming a breeding bias in the first daughter population?Charlie
November 24, 2006
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First Thanks again for the response and I will digest the bulk a little later. I would like to take a few seconds to repond to this: As to the comment that the mice on Madeira are still “mice,” this misses the point entirely. They are, in fact, six different species of mice, all descended from one original ancestral species brought ashore about 500 years ago. I have no doubt that the points being made are entirely different. But six different species of mice in 500 years from one ancestral stock pales in comparison to what would have had to have occurred in the YEC scenario following The Flood. IOW in light of the evidence you presented post-Flood rapid speciation claims do not seem so far-fetched. However even that does not explain the differences that need to be explained between chimps & humans.Joseph
November 24, 2006
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Re comment #97: The original chromolocal mutant would have 47 chromosomes, assuming it started out with the "normal" ape complement of 48. However, it might make it easier if one considers the two haploid sets of chromosomes in such an individual: Let us assume for the sake of illustration that the fusion event we are discussing fuses together chromosome #2 and #3; in that case, One set would consist of chromsomes #1, #2, #3, #4,...#23 + either an X or a y, for a total of 24 chromosomes (the "ape" haploid number) The other set would consist of chromsomes #1, #2 fused to #3, 4,...#23 + either an X or a y, for a total of 23 chromosomes (the "human" haploid number) During meiosis in this individual, the fused chromosome (#2+3) could pair up with the unattached #2 and #3 (such pairings are possible and have been observed in nature and in the lab), and then the two sets of chromosomes would be segregated into the first division daughter cells. which would then go through the second division, becoming haploid gametes. The result would be two daughter cells/gametes containing 24 chromosomes (i.e. the haploid number) and two daughter cells/gametes containing 23 chromosomes (i.e. the haploid number minus 1, because two of the chromosomes are fused together). When these gametes are combined with normal gametes from another individual following mating, the result would be that half of the offspring would have 48 chromosomes (the normal "ape" number) and half would have 47. If these individuals then went through meiosis and mated with each other (i.e. "first-degree inbreeding"), the result would be a population in which half of the offspring would have 48 chromosomes and half would have 46 (i.e. the normal "human" number). Et voila. the soon-to-become human genome would be off and running. Although meiosis can proceed with uneven numbers of chromosomes (as described above), it proceeds easier when every chromosome has a single homolog with which it can pair during prophase I of meiosis. For this reason, once a small group of individuals had been established that had 23 pairs of chromosomes instead of 24, these individuals would be more fertile mating with each other than mating with individuals that had 24 pairs. As a result, the two populations would tend to diverge over time, and if there were any differences in their phenotypes at all (not necessarily related to their chromosome number) and there were any correlated differences in reproductive success, then the two clades would continue to diverge, eventually becoming humans and chimpanzees (or perhaps bonobos...we don't know yet). As to the comment that the mice on Madeira are still "mice," this misses the point entirely. They are, in fact, six different species of mice, all descended from one original ancestral species brought ashore about 500 years ago. The same thing (i.e. rapid speciation) has been documented in other locations, most spectacularly in Lake Victoria, where over 600 species of cichlid fish speciated from three or four ancestral species in about 12,500 years (see Goldschmidt/Darwin's Dreampond for a detailed discussion).Allen_MacNeill
November 24, 2006
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Just an observation but the mice in comment 97 are still mice. In the chimp/ human scenario the "population" of genetically isolated 46ers would also require some number of mutations that effect phenotypical and morphological changes. FOXP2 doesn't appear to be of much help: FOXP2 and the Evolution of LanguageJoseph
November 24, 2006
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Allen, Thanks for your responses. I'll have to chalk up my problem with your hypothesis to my ignorance on the subject. I still see no distinction between the original male being able to mate with a normal female and the ability of his offspring to do so. There's something basic in the problem I don't understand, so I'll leave it to those who do. As for this As to the trisomy 18 versus trisomy 21 question, the former is always fatal, whereas the latter is often survivable, and even genetically transmissable. I would have to pick at nits here with you. Trisomy 18 is always fatal, but then, ultimately, so is birth. Trisomy 18 individuals, although rarely, can live and develop into their teens. This seems to contradict your statement of fact that all departures from diploidy (other than trisomy 21) result in spontaneous termination of development.Charlie
November 24, 2006
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Allen Nope; among the offspring of a mating between a normal individual and an individual with a chromolocal mutation, the frequency of that mutation would be 1 in 2, not one in a trillion. You misunderstood. I'm starting to wonder whether it's on purpose. Take two populations with one million individuals in each. One individual in each population is unique. If you selected one individual from each population at random to make a pair, the chance of selecting both unique individuals in one pair is one in a trillion. If you don't understand that then there's not much hope of this discussion getting anywhere.DaveScot
November 24, 2006
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