Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

This is what a reply to an Intelligent Design argument looks like

Categories
Intelligent Design
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Three days ago, I posted a 123-word critique of unguided mechanisms for evolution as an explanation for the genes, proteins and different kinds of body plans found in living things. The critique was taken from Dr. Stephen C. Meyer’s book, Darwin’s Doubt (Harper One, 2013), and I invited skeptics to rebut Dr. Meyer’s case, in 200 words or less. When I didn’t get a satisfactory rebuttal, I re-posted it. The critique read as follows:

“This book has presented four separate scientific critiques demonstrating the inadequacy of the neo-Darwinian mechanism, the mechanism that Dawkins assumes can produce the appearance of design without intelligent guidance. It has shown that the neo-Darwinian mechanism fails to account for the origin of genetic information because: (1) it has no means of efficiently searching combinatorial sequence space for functional genes and proteins and, consequently, (2) it requires unrealistically long waiting times to generate even a single new gene or protein. It has also shown that the mechanism cannot produce new body plans because: (3) early acting mutations, the only kind capable of generating large-scale changes, are also invariably deleterious, and (4) genetic mutations cannot, in any case, generate the epigenetic information necessary to build a body plan.” (2013, pp. 410-411)

In response to an objection from ID skeptic Mark Frank, who wrote that Dr. Meyer “explains perceived weaknesses in his understanding of evolutionary theory but gives no reason why design is a better alternative,” I also quoted another short passage from Darwin’s Doubt, which made a positive case for Intelligent Design:

…[E]ach of the features of the Cambrian animals and the Cambrian fossil record that constitute negative clues – clues that render neo-Darwinism and other materialistic theories inadequate as causal explanations – also happen to be features of systems known from experience to have arisen as the result of intelligent activity. In other words, standard materialistic evolutionary theories have failed to identify an adequate mechanism or cause for precisely those attributes of living forms that we know from experience only intelligence – conscious rational activity – is capable of producing. That suggests, in accord with the method of historical scientific reasoning elucidated in the previous chapter, the possibility of making a strong historical inference to intelligent design as the best explanation for the origin of those attributes. (2013, p. 358)

While Mark Frank answered the first challenge I issued, he and other readers failed to address the second. So let me spell it out.

What I was looking for was a short scientific rebuttal of Dr. Meyer’s arguments, something along these lines (I’m making this stuff up):

Contrary to Dr. Meyer’s claim that the combinatorial sequence space for functional genes and proteins is too large to be searched within the time available, scientists have calculated that functional proteins as short as 50 amino acids could have been generated within the space of 100 million years on the primordial Earth, within proto-cells near hydrothermal vents, and they have recently created artificial life-forms requiring only short amino-acid chains. What’s more, it turns out that the pathways between various proteins domains were in fact much shorter than previously believed, making the origin of the various proteins found in organisms today from a much smaller subset mathematically plausible. Scientists have also created a workable model of a developmentally plastic genome in which early acting mutations are nowhere near as harmful as in modern organisms. Finally, cell biologists have recently sketched a plausible hypothesis as to how the epigenetic information in the cell may have arisen, step-by-step. (Insert references here.)

That is what a proper reply to an Intelligent Design argument looks like. Maybe we’ll see one, in a decade or two. Who knows? But I’m not holding my breath. The case for Intelligent Design is built on cutting-edge science. The case for life having arisen by an unguided natural process is built on conjectures and castles in the air. That’s why we call it “promissory materialism.”

Comments
Hi Jerry,
We get to ID by the failure of natural processes to produce the interlocking complexity of what we see.
Just because no natural process that we know of cannot do this doesn't mean that no natural process can do this in principle. That is just another facet of the central error of ID. Just because no intelligent being that we know of could have created the first living systems doesn't mean that no intelligent being could have done it, right?
We all agree that an intelligence is the best explanation even Richard Dawkins. The argument against it that there was no intelligence to do it.
As far as we know, "intelligence" is a property of living things, or arguably about other sorts of systems capable of complex information processes. Since complex information processing requires (as far as we know) complex physical mechanism, then it makes no sense to posit that something intelligent somehow designed the original complex mechanisms. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
May 15, 2015
May
05
May
15
15
2015
05:11 PM
5
05
11
PM
PST
rhampton7, Thank you for granting that. That small act sets you apart from so many others who post here. Are you quoting Upright BiPed? Here's what he actually wrote:
Any proposition that can be (and is regularly) defended on the grounds that “we just don’t yet have the details, but we know it is true” (such as abiogenesis, for instance) cannot be brought to a test of its validity.
Mung
May 15, 2015
May
05
May
15
15
2015
05:08 PM
5
05
08
PM
PST
Hi Collin,
I just take issue with one thing. Just because you are a mind/body duelist, does not mean you are not doing science. IMO
Not sure what you mean. First, I'm not a mind/body dualist. My point about dualism is that the argument for ID that most ID authors put forth requires that mind/body dualism be true in order for the argument to be valid. This isn't the case for any other scientific theory about anything. Take a scientific theory of atomic structure, or gravity, or biological evolution, or geological phenomena, etc, and then see if the theory holds up if you assume (1) mind/body dualism and also if you assume (2) mind/body monism (e.g. physicalsm). Every scientific theory is equally well supported under either of these assumptions. ID, however, is only supported if one assumes that mind/body dualism is true. If dualism is false, then an "intelligent cause" is not ontologically distinct from a "material cause", so statements such as Meyer's (that only "intelligent causes" and not "material causes" can account for biological information) become meaningless. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
May 15, 2015
May
05
May
15
15
2015
05:03 PM
5
05
03
PM
PST
Upright BiPed,
"sign" - "something that suggests the presence or existence of some other fact, condition, or quality"
Apparently the critics just reflexively assume that it's the presence or existence of God that is suggested.Mung
May 15, 2015
May
05
May
15
15
2015
05:03 PM
5
05
03
PM
PST
Mung, False. You were right to point that out. That's why I changed "must have been designed" to "best explanation." Now it's your turn:
Any proposition that can be (and is regularly) defended on the grounds that “we just don’t yet have the details, but we know it is the best explanation” can be brought to a test of its validity.
True?rhampton7
May 15, 2015
May
05
May
15
15
2015
05:02 PM
5
05
02
PM
PST
rhampton7,
ID theory; “we know that x (certain features, species, laws of nature, et. al.) must have been designed, we just don’t have the details.”
False?Mung
May 15, 2015
May
05
May
15
15
2015
04:55 PM
4
04
55
PM
PST
Mung,
Any proposition that can be (and is regularly) defended on the grounds that “we just don’t yet have the details, but we know it is the best explanation” can be brought to a test of its validity.
True?rhampton7
May 15, 2015
May
05
May
15
15
2015
04:47 PM
4
04
47
PM
PST
rhampton7, as you well know, there is no “must have been designed” in ID theory. Do try to do better.Mung
May 15, 2015
May
05
May
15
15
2015
04:35 PM
4
04
35
PM
PST
jerry, Mung, According to argument made by Upright BiPed, if details are not provided then a proposition asserted to be true can not be defended.
Any proposition that can be (and is regularly) defended on the grounds that “we just don’t yet have the details, but we know it is true” (such as abiogenesis, for instance) cannot be brought to a test of its validity.
So, all that is needed to defend evolutionary theory is allow that it is the best explanation?
Any proposition that can be (and is regularly) defended on the grounds that “we just don’t yet have the details, but we know it is the best explanation” can be brought to a test of its validity.
rhampton7
May 15, 2015
May
05
May
15
15
2015
04:18 PM
4
04
18
PM
PST
But that also applies to ID theory
We get to ID by the failure of natural processes to produce the interlocking complexity of what we see. We all agree that an intelligence is the best explanation even Richard Dawkins. The argument against it that there was no intelligence to do it. ID says there probably was one, the natural evolutionist says there definitely was not one.jerry
May 15, 2015
May
05
May
15
15
2015
03:58 PM
3
03
58
PM
PST
RDFish, I just take issue with one thing. Just because you are a mind/body duelist, does not mean you are not doing science. IMOCollin
May 15, 2015
May
05
May
15
15
2015
03:53 PM
3
03
53
PM
PST
eigenstate:
For any paradigm that has to shrug and say “don’t know” on proposition X, there still may be, and for metaphysical materialism are (plenty) of other propositions that are falsifiable and therefore sufficient to discredit the worldview.
Let's begin with the proposition that there are potential observations that could falsify materialism. That would include a whole class of propositions, all those which arise from observation. You've already taken the stance that no observation could falsify materialism. So what does that leave?Mung
May 15, 2015
May
05
May
15
15
2015
03:49 PM
3
03
49
PM
PST
rhampton7, as you well know, there is no "must have been designed" in ID theory. Do try to do better.Mung
May 15, 2015
May
05
May
15
15
2015
03:42 PM
3
03
42
PM
PST
eigenstate, God doesn't need or require moral justification. Wrong analogy.
On materialism, if the world around us wasn’t amenable to effective model building, models that incorporated only natural dynamics and resources, materialism would be as untenable as YEC Christianity.
It's not at all obvious what you're talking about here. It's the way that the world is that makes materialism tenable? And everything describable by the human intellect just is material? Doesn't it follow that God, if God exists, must be immaterial?Mung
May 15, 2015
May
05
May
15
15
2015
03:41 PM
3
03
41
PM
PST
Upright BiPed @79, But that also applies to ID theory; "we know that x (certain features, species, laws of nature, et. al.) must have been designed, we just don't have the details." Do you believe that ID can not be brought to a test of its validity?rhampton7
May 15, 2015
May
05
May
15
15
2015
03:36 PM
3
03
36
PM
PST
Eigenstate, Any proposition that can be (and is regularly) defended on the grounds that "we just don't yet have the details, but we know it is true" (such as abiogenesis, for instance) cannot be brought to a test of its validity.Upright BiPed
May 15, 2015
May
05
May
15
15
2015
03:30 PM
3
03
30
PM
PST
It's true, none of know for sure which flavor of ice cream God enjoys most, therefore IC is false.Mung
May 15, 2015
May
05
May
15
15
2015
03:28 PM
3
03
28
PM
PST
2). Pay special attention here: The defense of materialism you’ve described here renders materialism as a non-falifiable idea. Do you even realize this? A paradigm that can always fall back on simply not knowing enough is a proposition that cannot be falsified. You are describing an idea that cannot be tested for its validity. Do you know what they call a proposition that cannopt be falsified? I bet you do. I really really bet you do.
This is confused, wrong. For any paradigm that has to shrug and say "don't know" on proposition X, there still may be, and for metaphysical materialism are (plenty) of other propositions that are falsifiable and therefore sufficient to discredit the worldview. If a YEC, in defending some question about, oh God's moral justification for the genocide against the Amelekites says "I don't know, we can't know", that may be a frustrating answer, but that does not settle matters for a YEC worldview. We might look at the Y in YEC, for example as a decisive case where that worldview does make claims that can be falsified, claims that are entailed by the paradigm, etc. On materialism, if the world around us wasn't amenable to effective model building, models that incorporated only natural dynamics and resources, materialism would be as untenable as YEC Christianity. That doesn't hinge on understanding the stereochemical pathways for codon-protein mapping in DNA (although I don't see that as problematic knowledge to obtain in principle). How you came to think that this question was the acid test for all of materialism, I can't imagine. Perhaps it just proceeds from the idea that materialism must provide all answers to all questions about all phenomena in order to obtain its warrant, and thus this is just one of things materialism must now to be holistically complete so might then embrace it. Doesn't matter, though. There's no basis for holding out the question you've posed as the arbiter for the paradigm when it's an unknown. If there are claims that proceed from the paradigm unavoidably and those can be falsified, then so much the worse for the paradigm. But here, well, it's just goofy, muddled.eigenstate
May 15, 2015
May
05
May
15
15
2015
03:20 PM
3
03
20
PM
PST
Oh, and by the way sean, the point you ran from is rather simple. The translation of an informational medium requires an arrangment of matter to encode the information, as well as a second separate arrangment of matter to physically establish what the result of that encoding will be. It cannot function without both objects. Every instance of translation from the origin of biology through today has had to follow this fundamental reality. Now, given your blinders, you may ask why is this necessary? The answer is simple, its about the type of temporal effects that translation can produce, as opposed to physical effects that do not require translation. For instance, the effect of "present leucine at the binding site, then present aspartic acid, then present glycine" is not an effect that can be derived from (determined by) the dynamic properties of the medium that is being translated to evoke those effects. It is in a class of things that only come into existence by the process of translation. A living thing is a heterogeneous reality, requiring tranlation to organize its form - and that translation is inescapably dependent on irreducible complexity.Upright BiPed
May 15, 2015
May
05
May
15
15
2015
03:05 PM
3
03
05
PM
PST
sean,
Even if no one in the world had the answer you seek, that would not mean that IC applies. It would just mean no one has the answer yet.
I know this is a powerful passage for you to chant. There are a couple things you might want to keep in mind: 1). We already have the answer of how translation occurs, and we have had that answer for dozens upon dozens of years. This isn't about finding an answer we don't have; it's about recognizing the necessary physcical conditions that allow translation to occur. So... when you say this kind of thing, all you are doing is flashing to people that you really haven't a clue what the issues are. I am not merely saying this to chastise you, I am trying to get through the personal ignorance you deliberately protect - you don't know what the hell the issues are, and thus, your criticisms are generally pointless. I can guess you are one of those people who likes to hear himself sound smart, so I am pointing this out to you so that you can have a chance to reach your dreams. Next time, deep six your scientism sales pitch (we've all heard it before from much more eloquent critics than you) long enough to actually learn something. 2). Pay special attention here: The defense of materialism you've described here renders materialism as a non-falifiable idea. Do you even realize this? A paradigm that can always fall back on simply not knowing enough is a proposition that cannot be falsified. You are describing an idea that cannot be tested for its validity. Do you know what they call a proposition that cannopt be falsified? I bet you do. I really really bet you do.Upright BiPed
May 15, 2015
May
05
May
15
15
2015
02:47 PM
2
02
47
PM
PST
Hmm, I must have missed the checkbox at log-in where I verify my academic credentials. Oh wait, there isn’t one! The point remains the same: Even if no one in the world had the answer you seek, that would not mean that IC applies. It would just mean no one has the answer yet. And if someone has found the answer (they have! Good for them.), there are other questions you could ask which have not been answered yet. There always will be. That does not prove IC occurs, only that there will always be yet another question to work on. sean s.sean samis
May 15, 2015
May
05
May
15
15
2015
02:19 PM
2
02
19
PM
PST
sean, thanks for raising your hand and yelling loudly. Always good to see an unabashed troll here at UD. Most of them try to hide it.Mung
May 15, 2015
May
05
May
15
15
2015
01:18 PM
1
01
18
PM
PST
We’ve handed out Nobel Prizes to those who demonstrated why leucine appears at the input of CTA. We did this about 45 years ago.
ORLY? I suppose you were there?Mung
May 15, 2015
May
05
May
15
15
2015
01:13 PM
1
01
13
PM
PST
good grief We've handed out Nobel Prizes to those who demonstrated why leucine appears at the input of CTA. We did this about 45 years ago. I did not realize that I was talking to someone who just wanted to trash talk ID without having even the slightest clue what he was talking about. You don't need me for that.Upright BiPed
May 15, 2015
May
05
May
15
15
2015
12:53 PM
12
12
53
PM
PST
Upright BiPed asked “Can you derive the appearance of leucine by the physical properties of CTA?” Me? No. “If not, why not.” Because, of all the things in the world to work on, that one has not made it to the top of my to-do list. Even if no one in the world has the answer you seek, that would not mean that IC applies. It would just mean no one has an answer yet. And if someone has found the answer, there are other questions you could ask which have not been answered yet. There always will be. That does not prove IC occurs, only that there will always be yet another question to work on. sean s.sean samis
May 15, 2015
May
05
May
15
15
2015
12:37 PM
12
12
37
PM
PST
RDFish; Your answer is what I thought it would be, but it’s good to get it confirmed. Thanks. sean s.sean samis
May 15, 2015
May
05
May
15
15
2015
12:36 PM
12
12
36
PM
PST
sean,
IC is not a self-evident attribute.
If the nucleic triplet CTA appears in mRNA for translation, leucine will appear at the peptide binding site for inclusion into the nascent protein. Can you derive the appearance of leucine by the physical properties of CTA? If not, why not.Upright BiPed
May 15, 2015
May
05
May
15
15
2015
11:58 AM
11
11
58
AM
PST
Hi sean samis,
RDFish replied @57 that “Nothing that we know of could have existed prior to living things and have been responsible for their creation”. Nothing? Not abiotic chemistry? Not deities? Nothing? Really? Or do you just mean “nothing we can describe specifically”?
I meant "nothing that we know of", and by "know" I am referring to empirical knowledge. Meyer says that ID is an empirical science that proposes a known cause of complex mechanism as the cause of the first living things, and I'm pointing out that he is mistaken to say that. We know a lot about abiotic chemistry, and have good reason to believe it existed before living things of course, but nobody knows how it may have caused living things to exist, so we cannot support the hypothesis that life arose by means of abiotic chemistry. We have no empirical knowledge of extra-terrestrial life forms, so we cannot support the hypothesis that alien life was responsible for creating life on Earth. We have no empirical knowledge of deities, so we cannot support the hypothesis that life arose by means of divine activity. And so on. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
May 15, 2015
May
05
May
15
15
2015
11:12 AM
11
11
12
AM
PST
Upright BiPed Incoherence is a demonstrable trait, you have made no effort to cite even one fact about my statement that is inconsistent with other parts of my statement. It appears that you just don’t like it and misuse the term “incoherent” as an epithet. “The physical requirements for one thing to specify another thing have been well-known for quite some time. What is clear here is that you have no idea what they are, and have never thought about it.” No, that’s not true. Not even at a very high level. More importantly, in physical systems “specify” is a metaphor. The correct term is “cause”; something causes another thing to take on attributes. Some causes are already known, other are not yet. “To show that a thing is irreducibly complex only requires you to show that it is irreducibly complex. In this particular instance, that is a simple task.” IC is not a self-evident attribute. It is a conclusion requiring complete information about all possible and excluded alternate explanations. If even one explanation remains unfalsified, then IC is not established. “You seem much more comfortable denigrating people ...” denigrate: criticize unfairly; disparage. disparage: regard or represent as being of little worth. I deny the charge. Present your evidence. “...thus, I will limit my involvement.” Hmm. Interesting. So you are dropping the charges? sean s.sean samis
May 15, 2015
May
05
May
15
15
2015
10:57 AM
10
10
57
AM
PST
sean
Mung @35 asked RDFish if their stated position was that “no known cause that can account for the origin of biological systems”. That question must be assuming something, because on its face it makes no sense. The difference between science and creationism is about what the cause is; both assume something caused the origin of life.
I don't suppose you realize that the bold text is a quote of RDFish. So you're just a tad late to the party.Mung
May 15, 2015
May
05
May
15
15
2015
10:55 AM
10
10
55
AM
PST
1 2 3 4 5