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Timaeus Exposes Larry Moran

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All that follows is from UD commenter Timaeus:

Larry Moran wrote:

“I’ve been trying to teach Denyse about evolution for almost twenty years. It’s not working.”

Perhaps teaching is not your strong point, Larry. There is some empirical evidence of that, I believe.

Or perhaps it is expertise that is the problem. Last time I checked your website for your publications on evolutionary theory, I found many popular articles on ID and creationism, and some apparently self-published biochemical data on your university website. I couldn’t find a single article on evolutionary theory in a peer-reviewed journal on the subject for over 10 years into the past. For someone who has so many opinions on evolution, and voices them so loudly in non-professionally-controlled environments such as blog sites, you are surprisingly absent from the professional discussions. Perhaps you can explain the inverse relationship between your popular involvement in debates over evolution and your visibility in the technical books and articles on the subject of evolution.

It strikes me that spending hundreds of hours every year trying to convince ID people and creationists they are wrong would not be as profitable a use of a Toronto professor’s time as actually researching evolutionary mechanisms and publishing the findings at academic conferences, in books, and in journals.

[TIME PASSES]

I’ll take Larry Moran’s silence on my request for a list of his recent peer-reviewed publications in evolutionary biology as a concession that he has no such publications. I.e., I will infer that he is a commentator on debates over evolutionary theory, not an evolutionary theorist himself.

Of course, being a commentator on something is not a bad thing in itself. For someone to say: “Gould says such-and-such about evolutionary mechanisms, and Futuyma says something different, and Coyne says something different, and here are some of the points over which these men have disagreed” — that would be pedagogically useful for many readers. But that’s not the way Larry Moran has ever written about evolution.

Larry writes in this fashion: “Evolution doesn’t happen that way; it happens this way.” That is, Larry does not merely describe what the experts think, and indicate areas of possible strength in weakness in their various views, but tells his readers which views are right and which are wrong, which evolutionary biologists know what they are talking about and which don’t. He poses as someone who can referee the conflicts, who stands above all the others and can pass judgment on their scientific competence and the correctness of their theories, and, in a pinch, when none of them is right, can tell us the way evolution really happened, on his own authority. This is pretty arrogant for a guy with no recent publications in the field, and whose work (as far as I can tell) is never or rarely cited by Shapiro, Newman, Wagner, Jablonka, or any of the other currently important evolutionary theorists.

Larry has an inflated idea of his own importance within evolutionary theory. In fact, in reality, he is just one more of 10,000 guys in the world with a Ph.D. in biology or biochemistry or genetics who is under the illusion that knowing one of those fields automatically makes one an expert on evolutionary theory and evolutionary mechanisms. But the people who actually *do* evolutionary theory seem to take little notice of Larry Moran (or his blog site) at all.

Of course, maybe I’m wrong. Maybe Larry regularly gets invited to big conferences on evolutionary theory to be the keynote speaker; maybe his judgments are revered around the world the way Ernst Mayr’s used to be. If so, I’ll be glad to be corrected, and to retract my statements. Someone here can write in with evidence of the hundreds of times Larry’s research on evolutionary mechanisms have been cited in the literature, with the details of the publications Larry hasn’t bothered to list on his web site, etc. What I can see for the moment, however, is that Larry Moran is a nobody in evolutionary theory, a biochemistry teacher at Toronto with an interest in evolutionary theory who is convinced he knows more about it than almost everyone else on the planet, but with no track record to corroborate that opinion.

That’s the problem with the internet age. Through web sites and blogs, it gives people the ability to be prominent, and many readers assume that prominence equals importance. But it doesn’t. The Kardashians and Paris Hilton are as prominent in popular culture as Tom Hanks or Meryl Streep, but they aren’t nearly as important. To be important, as opposed to prominent, one has to demonstrate ability. *Ability*, not the verbal fluency to hold forth on a subject on a blog site. And in science, ability is proved not on blog sites but at conferences, in articles, and in books. So what is needed is a list of Larry’s publications in these venues.

Comments
The difference between Joe G. and Zachriel is that Joe is sincere in his convictions whereas Zachriel and his demons are weavers of lies and deception. So why is Joe G. banned while Zachriel and demons continue to spew their anonymous lies on UD? I therefore protest the decision to ban Joe.Mapou
June 6, 2015
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StephenB: A Darwinist is one who holds that evolution proceeds by naturalistic mechanisms alone and needs no designer. As already stated, the term has many related definitions. In biology, darwinian often refers to evolution by natural selection. That is certainly how Moran uses the term. http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2006/11/why-im-not-darwinist.html StephenB: Accordingly, the only way to distinguish guided evolution from unguided evolution is to classify the first paradigm as ID and the second paradigm as Darwinism. Lynn Margulis once said "It was like confessing a murder when I discovered I was not a neo-Darwinist... I am definitely a Darwinist though." She meant that selection was the mechanism by which new variations became fixed in a population, but that the sources of variation were much more complex than allowed in naïve neo-darwinian thought. StephenB: The issue is, and always has been, guided evolution vs. unguided evolution—ID vs. Darwinism. It's not that Darwinism is never used that way, but the problem with it is that the use conflicts with a common scientific meaning. Another problem is you have set up a false dichotomy. Even if we accept Darwinism to mean the modern theory of evolution, falsifying the modern theory doesn't necessarily mean some other natural theory couldn't be devised. Furthermore, ID is a vague and general claim, not a scientific theory, while Darwinism and modern evolutionary theory are scientific theories.Zachriel
June 6, 2015
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Box and WJM, Prehaps I should make myself clear: I'm not looking for philosophical pronouncements, much less religious ones which are made irrelevant by the fact many evolutionary biologists are themselves religious. ID is claimed to be a scientific movement, so I'd like to know which products of the movement evolutionary biologists should care about. Findings or new methods, for instance. EDIT: (and to save you the time, don't bother with CSIwhich, in the form most recently defended [pdf]just says improbable events are improbable, which is not much of a contribution!)wd400
June 6, 2015
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Zachriel
While darwinian has several meanings, biologists generally use the term to mean evolution by natural selection. A darwinist is someone who thinks that natural selection is a paramount mechanism in evolution. Moran is not a darwinist.
No. A Darwinist is one who holds that evolution proceeds by naturalistic mechanisms alone and needs no designer. ID defines it that way because Darwinists equivocate with the word “evolution” in order to mislead uninformed observers into believing that ID is anti-evolution, which it is not. Accordingly, the only way to distinguish guided evolution from unguided evolution is to classify the first paradigm as ID and the second paradigm as Darwinism. Under that definition, Larry Moran is a Darwinist. You are a Darwinist. Richard Dawkins is a Darwinist. For that matter, Ken Miller is a Darwinist. The distinction between naturalism and neutralism is an intramural dispute that has nothing to do with the conflict between ID and Darwinism. If Larry Moran does not understand the debate, that is his problem. The issue is, and always has been, guided evolution vs. unguided evolution—ID vs. Darwinism. If you disagree, show me another way to make the critical distinctions that define the debate. Show me another way to differentiate between those who hold that design is real that those who hold that it is an illusion.StephenB
June 6, 2015
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Mung, I did notice absence but did not realise, banned. KFkairosfocus
June 6, 2015
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Timaeus: Larry would have been originally hired at Toronto do to both teaching and research. Quite possibly. His university website lists his research interests as molecular biology and undergraduate education. Education is also a field of study, in case you didn't know. If you don't feel he is pulling his weight, perhaps you can take it up with the University of Toronto. Did you answer the question? Where does Moran claim to be a “leader in evolutionary theory”?Zachriel
June 6, 2015
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WJM, that was beautifully concise! I'm borrowing it.bornagain77
June 6, 2015
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WD400 said:
I want to know why we should care about ID. What scientific finding, methods or predictions has ID made that generated that evolutionary biologists should care about.
Well, virtually all of science proceeds as if ID is true - it seeks elegant and efficient models; it reverse engineers biological systems; it describes evolution in teleological terms; it refers to natural forces and laws as if there is some kind of prescriptive agency guiding matter and energy; it assumes that the nature of the universe and human comprehensive capacity have some sort of truthful, factual correspondence. IOW, no matter how much one insists that science progresses because it only accepts materialist explanations, the fact is that science only came to exist and only advances because it rides on ID assumptions. Take away those assumptions and all science can be is personal feelings and politics.William J Murray
June 6, 2015
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Curly: You are not listening, and not even thinking straight. (Perhaps imitating your namesake.) There is no way I could indicate the work I corrected without making you aware of both title and author, and from that you could easily find out from the author, if you wished, who submitted the corrections. And I don't intend to give you that opening. Not even if you promised not to use it. I don't know who you are, and therefore your promise can mean nothing to me. Give it up, Curly. As I already said, if you don't believe me, I don't care. Whether you respect or disrespect my knowledge is a matter of utter contempt to me.Timaeus
June 6, 2015
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Zachriel: You make up, off the top of your head, this statement: "As already pointed out, Moran moved into teaching in the 1990s." This implies that earlier he was doing research, not teaching, and then moved into teaching, not research. That would be wrong. Larry would have been originally hired at Toronto do to both teaching and research. So it is not as if he started out exclusively as a researcher, then switched to teaching. He started out doing both. But later, he continued with the teaching, while slacking off on the research. It is perhaps a certain provincialism derived from your experience (or more likely hearsay knowledge) of certain American research universities or university departments, where there are professors hired solely to do research, which causes you to make this error. You imagine that Toronto is something like that. But in most countries outside of the USA (and even in the USA at many if not most universities) the job teaching/research is a package deal. You don't switch from one function to the other; you do both. Your willingness to invent a partial academic biography for Moran, when you don't even live in his country, don't know the university system there, and have never set foot on the campus of his university, let alone in the halls of his department, and further, haven't taken the time to ask him about it, is revealing. I hope you are not a scientist, if this an example of how rigorous your research techniques are.Timaeus
June 6, 2015
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follow up #183
(...) In other words, our uniform experience of cause and effect shows that intelligent design is the only known cause of the origin of large amounts of functionally specified digital information. It follows that the great infusion of such information in the Cambrian explosion points decisively to an intelligent cause. Intelligent design stands alone as an explanation for the origin of genetic information for another reason: purposive agents have just those necessary powers that natural selection lacks as a condition of its causal adequacy. We have seen that natural selection lacks the ability to generate novel information precisely because it can only act after new functional information has arisen. Natural selection can favor new proteins and genes, but only after they perform some function (influencing reproductive output). The job of generating new functional genes, proteins, and systems of proteins therefore falls entirely to random mutations. Yet without functional criteria to guide a search through the space of possible sequences, random variation is probabilistically doomed. What is needed is not just a source of variation (i.e., the freedom to search a space of possibilities) or a mode of selection that can operate after the fact of a successful search, but instead a means of selection that (a) operates during a search—before success—and that (b) is guided by information about or knowledge of a functional target. [Stephen Meyer, Darwin's Doubt]
Box
June 6, 2015
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WD400: I want to know why we should care about ID. What scientific finding, methods or predictions has ID made that generated that evolutionary biologists should care about.
My short answer is, that central to ID is the idea that information can only be produced by intelligence.
Our experience-based knowledge of information flow confirms that systems with large amounts of specified or functional information invariably originate from an intelligent source. The generation of functional information is “habitually associated with conscious activity.” Our uniform experience confirms this obvious truth. [Stephen Meyer, DD]
Due to its inability to present any evidence to the contrary, this insight hangs over evolutionary biology like a sword of Damocles.Box
June 6, 2015
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Curly, I appreciate that. I am glad that you concede that there is misbehavior on both sides of heated topics such as this. However, I still find it extremely unlikely that the evaluations on RMP were not created by students. I think the reasons are clear enough, so won't go into them unless asked to do so. Querius, thank you. No, not a religion, but certainly like one in terms of the zeal with which some promote it. At least enough like a religion that it seems hypocritical for them to continually refer to ID as religion in disguise. Their form of materialist, all-you-need-is-time (two types, the time needed for species to evolve, and the time THEY need to finally and firmly prove their theories and disprove god) certitude (faith?) is atheism flashing a 'Hey, I'm a Scientist!' card.soundburger
June 5, 2015
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Why not just give me the title of the article and tell me to find the mistake myself, Timaeus? I really don't see how your personal info could possibly be found through a journal website if you directly emailed the primary author. Your story sounds even less likely to be true now. A cynic, burger. I've seen both ends of the spectrum and I know there are people at every point in between as well. No matter the side.Curly Howard
June 5, 2015
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soundburger @ 177, Good points. It seems that a lot of "leading evolutionists" are simply promoting an atheistic world view painted over with a thick layer of 19th century evolutionary theory that's been bubbling and flaking off for 150 years. I'm not convinced that their atheism is a religion, but it definitely takes the place of religion as evidenced by their histrionics in defense of various versions of evolution. Just sayin' -QQuerius
June 5, 2015
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Mapou:
Why is Joe G. banned from commenting on UD?
Go back and review Joe G.'s comments just prior to his being banned. Pretty sure he was warned. Pretty freaking funny that in all the whining over at TSZ (and here) over "Aurelio Smith" no one seems to have noticed the absence of Joe.Mung
June 5, 2015
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Silver Asiatic: you disagree with Shapiro so he’s not “a leading evolutionary theorist”. Shapiro has proposed some interesting ideas, but he hasn't yet got the goods to support his claims. StephenB: Among other things, he claims that IDists are IDiots because they don’t understand the difference between ancient Neo-Darwinism and his more modern version of neutral evolution From what we have seen, he calls them IDiots because they refuse to learn. Seriously, IDers will show up on his blog and try to argue as to whether humans share ancestry with other apes. StephenB: Indeed, there are plenty of well-published, up to date, Darwinian naturalists who disavow neutral evolution altogether. The debate concerning the relative importance of natural selection has been going on since Darwin. Neutral theory is widely accepted. StephenB: Moran is recklessly presumptuous to claim that ID proponents are ignorant of neutral evolution simply because they use the term “Darwinism.” In fact, Darwinists and ID proponents typically define that term the same way—as one who embraces unguided macro-evolution. While darwinian has several meanings, biologists generally use the term to mean evolution by natural selection. A darwinist is someone who thinks that natural selection is a paramount mechanism in evolution. Moran is not a darwinist. Timaeus: Originally, I asked for evidence of substantive peer-reviewed research in the past decade by Moran. As already pointed out, Moran moved into teaching in the 1990s. Timaeus: I pointed out that those articles were very old, and would not qualify one as a leader in evolutionary theory today. One doesn't have to be a "leader in evolutionary theory" to be a valid authority on molecular evolution. Moran worked as a researcher in the field, and now teaches the subject at the university level. Timaeus: But there are senior physics textbooks written by people who know a lot about physics; that doesn’t make those writers world-class experts in quantum theory or string theory or multiverse theory etc. No, but they probably know enough about physics to be considered an expert, especially with regard to mainstream views. Timaeus: My argument is merely that he should adjust the degree of certainty with which he expresses himself to his relative intellectual rank within the community of evolutionary theorists. Where does Moran claim to be a "leader in evolutionary theory"? soundburger: In physics, Laurence Krauss is also more prominent as an atheist than a theorist. Krauss is very prominent in the physics community, and has published many journal research papers. Just because someone is publicly prominent doesn't mean they haven't done significant scientific work. Most science isn't revolutionary in scope, nor have mass appeal. Most science is collecting bugs or counting colonies or analyzing data.Zachriel
June 5, 2015
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What Larry Moran seems most prominent in, in fact, is his atheism. He is a prominent Canadian atheist and 'skeptic'. He is this more than an educator and researcher. And that's fine. It's also interesting, because a number of prominent atheists, such as P.Z. Myers, Richard Dawkins, and Jerry Coyne are biologists who happen to be tenured professors whose work in their field is not now, or has never been cutting edge. In physics, Laurence Krauss is also more prominent as an atheist than a theorist. Yet, why is it that such folk always accuse ID of being not an actual science, but simply religion in disguise? Religion is generally led by priests, pastors, etc. And there don't seem to be many (are there ANY?) of them in the front ranks of ID. Yet, it seems like the people who are most strongly pushing the opposite of ID, the idea that no intelligence was ever necessary to account for the wonder and complexity of life, are all prominent atheists. They are dedicated to promoting atheism, through books, blogs, conferences, debates, etc. Their credentials as scientists are used to give them greater credibility. But the cause is atheism. They all believe the world would be a better place without religion, and advocate for this. So, on the ID side, no priests spearheading the movement. On the materialist side, prominent atheists lead the charge. Which seems more like a religion?soundburger
June 5, 2015
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OT: Why is Joe G. banned from commenting on UD? Joe's contributions to UD have been invaluable. I say, ban the prevaricating Darwinists, not Joe.Mapou
June 5, 2015
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Wd400, Why don't you respond to my challenge to coward Moran and provide one piece of evidence that convinced you that life originated on its own without superior intelligence we know about. If you do, for verifiable evidence for the origins of life I will pay you $100.000. If you have 2 it is $1.000.000. I'm willing to put my life on it that you and morans will be emptyhanded. Test me out... pleaseKevNick
June 5, 2015
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When you got all sarcastic about about mainstream evolution ignoring ID above you mentioned only the goals of ID. I want to know why we should care about ID. What scientific finding, methods or predictions has ID made that generated that evolutionary biologists should care about.wd400
June 5, 2015
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WD400, I'm not sure I understand your question.Box
June 5, 2015
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What scientific relevance does ID, as a movement rather than a goal, have box?wd400
June 5, 2015
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WD400, thks for the list.
WD400: Most evolutionary biologists simply ignore ID, which has very little if any scientific relevance.
Sure. It is of course of little scientific significance that the universe is found to be fine-tuned and that by reasonable inference the information we find in life stems from an intelligent source. Just ignore it. Move along ppl, nothing to see here.Box
June 5, 2015
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Timaeus @ 115
However, I don’t think the people here who drew attention to the teaching evaluations were using those evaluations as evidence that Larry was a poor researcher. I think they were suggesting that there was a thematic connection between his striking lack of positive connection with his students and his argumentative behavior on his website.
Exactly. Except as you keep pointing out, not participating in any current research tends to disqualify someone as a "researcher." Throwing his towering intellect into teaching doesn't seem to be received well by his students, presumably the object of his efforts. Remedial action or reassessment seems to be indicated. "Fringe" is the label is commonly used by modern academics to smear each other instead of the more traditional poo. What these Champions of the Consensus fail to recognize is that *all* significant advances in science are introduced by researchers who represent fringe views, and that science indeed seems to advance one funeral at a time. Keep up the great posts. -QQuerius
June 5, 2015
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wd400:
Most evolutionary biologists simply ignore ID, which has very little if any scientific relevance.
You know, I agree that ID, which restricts itself to the detection of design, does not do much for science. The problem with ID is that its proponents have been sitting on it for years while arguing back and forth with Darwinists (a waste of time, in the end). I say it is high time that the theory of intelligent design be expanded. There is a lot that we know about intelligent design from watching humans. Most of the things that the Darwinists get right about life on earth (e.g., the hierarchical organization of lifeforms) can be easily inferred from the many known cases of complex intelligent design by humans. We know, for example, that design over time always results in a mostly nested hierarchy. Modern software design would be a total mess if it did not encourage and enforce a class hierarchy. My question is, why does the ID camp refuse to touch this? Why allow the other side space to boast about their predictions when we can make the same and better predictions direct from fundamental design principles? I may be wrong but I suspect that this reticence has to do with where most of the funding for ID research is coming from. Telling it like I see it, as always.Mapou
June 5, 2015
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The reasons I remain anonymous are my own, and no one else business. I don't think Moran is a leading evolutionary biologists. He certainly knows a lot more about molecular evolution that most biochemists and much more about the history of molecular biology that most people working in genomics. I've often seem him criticize scientists in those fields for not understanding the evolutionary background to their work, and he's qualified to do that. What I'm trying to get to you to show me is an example where he acted as if he was a "leading evolutionary theorist" when dismissing someone who was in fact a leader in the field. I told you what I meant by fringe -- Shaprio's ideas have had very little impact on evolutionary biology. He could be right*, but he's not convinced many evolutionary biologists of that so he can hardly be said to be "leading" anything! It's true that many of the best evolutionary biologists don't spend much time on ID, though Joe Felsenstein is certainly a great evolutionary biologists and Coyne (with Orr) wrote the book on speciation. Most evolutionary biologists simply ignore ID, which has very little if any scientific relevance. It is , of course, possible to defend evolutionary biology without being the reincarnation of Dobzhansky. *he's notwd400
June 5, 2015
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wd400: If you are an evolutionary biologist, why can't you tell us who you are and where you work? Not being an ID proponent, you can't possibly lose your job, grants, career, etc. if your employer knows your real name (which is unfortunately the case for myself and several others here). Regarding Shapiro and other "fringe" evolutionary theorists, you haven't answered my question whether "fringe" means "wrong, incompetent, etc." or only "in the minority." Interesting that your list of major evolutionary theorists today does not include Larry Moran. That reduces our disagreement to whether or not Larry is sometimes overconfident or dismissive in tone or expression. I don't have time to go through all his old blog posts now to find examples of the latter, but I have seen them. In any case, if you agree with me about the non-major status of Moran, I'm happy with that much. Tell it to Zachriel. And while you are at it, explain to him why a scientist at a major research institution such at Toronto would be expected to keep producing new research in order to be considered in the front line of his field. He does not seem to understand the difference between a textbook writer and a front-line researcher. I'm also heartened to see that your list of "big guns" does not include P.Z. Myers, Eugenie Scott, Kevin Padian, Ken Miller, Nick Matzke -- many of the biggest mouths who claim or have claimed to speak as the voice of contemporary evolutionary theory. How about the guy at Cornell who used to post here -- Allen McNeill? Is he a "biggie" in your view? And that guy who posts at the Skeptical Zone -- Felsenstein -- is he a big gun? How about Wesley Elsberry? For that matter, to mention someone less involved in culture-war polemics, how about Simon Conway Morris? Interesting also that you include Allen Orr -- an ID critic with a degree of moderation and class in his rebuttals of Behe etc., but not Jerry Coyne -- an ID critic who is more obviously partisan and thuggish. Overall, there seems to be an almost complete separation between those you consider to be leading evolutionary theorists, and those who have anointed themselves the defenders of evolution and crusaders against ID in the popular arena. Interesting. I think you and I could do business.Timaeus
June 5, 2015
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Timaeus, would that Barbara McClintock, the very fringe evolutionary biologist?Mung
June 5, 2015
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wd400: A woman can behave, as it were, like a traditional "gentleman," i.e., with gracious manners, conceding points to an opponent, adopting a tentative tone, etc. Besides, if I had said "gentlemen and ladies," you could just as easily have pilloried me for that. I was once told by a woman that "ladies" -- the balancing term to "gentlemen" -- is an inherently sexist term. One can't win with political correct oversensitives, who are ready to seize upon every incidental word uttered and make an issue out of it, rather than focus on the subject at hand. But if you like, get rid of "gentlemen" and substitute "scientists with civilized and intellectually generous dialogical manners" -- which I thought was rather obviously my intention. I would have no objection to such an amendment. Anything to make you feel comfortable. And yes, I am fully aware that women can be scientists, and good ones. (Lynn Margulis's attack on neo-Darwinism comes to mind, as does Barbara McClintock's research, which inspired Shapiro and many others.) Interestingly, though, the vast majority of the leading culture-warrior atheist (and occasionally Christian) scientists are men: Moran, Shallit, Myers, Rosenhouse, Matzke, Dawkins, Stenger, Harris, Dennett, Atkins, Miller, Matheson, etc. It seems that female scientists are not as attracted to bellicose exchanges of intellectual one-upmanship in popular venues as males are. I wish that attitude would rub off on the males.Timaeus
June 5, 2015
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