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Timaeus Exposes Larry Moran

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All that follows is from UD commenter Timaeus:

Larry Moran wrote:

“I’ve been trying to teach Denyse about evolution for almost twenty years. It’s not working.”

Perhaps teaching is not your strong point, Larry. There is some empirical evidence of that, I believe.

Or perhaps it is expertise that is the problem. Last time I checked your website for your publications on evolutionary theory, I found many popular articles on ID and creationism, and some apparently self-published biochemical data on your university website. I couldn’t find a single article on evolutionary theory in a peer-reviewed journal on the subject for over 10 years into the past. For someone who has so many opinions on evolution, and voices them so loudly in non-professionally-controlled environments such as blog sites, you are surprisingly absent from the professional discussions. Perhaps you can explain the inverse relationship between your popular involvement in debates over evolution and your visibility in the technical books and articles on the subject of evolution.

It strikes me that spending hundreds of hours every year trying to convince ID people and creationists they are wrong would not be as profitable a use of a Toronto professor’s time as actually researching evolutionary mechanisms and publishing the findings at academic conferences, in books, and in journals.

[TIME PASSES]

I’ll take Larry Moran’s silence on my request for a list of his recent peer-reviewed publications in evolutionary biology as a concession that he has no such publications. I.e., I will infer that he is a commentator on debates over evolutionary theory, not an evolutionary theorist himself.

Of course, being a commentator on something is not a bad thing in itself. For someone to say: “Gould says such-and-such about evolutionary mechanisms, and Futuyma says something different, and Coyne says something different, and here are some of the points over which these men have disagreed” — that would be pedagogically useful for many readers. But that’s not the way Larry Moran has ever written about evolution.

Larry writes in this fashion: “Evolution doesn’t happen that way; it happens this way.” That is, Larry does not merely describe what the experts think, and indicate areas of possible strength in weakness in their various views, but tells his readers which views are right and which are wrong, which evolutionary biologists know what they are talking about and which don’t. He poses as someone who can referee the conflicts, who stands above all the others and can pass judgment on their scientific competence and the correctness of their theories, and, in a pinch, when none of them is right, can tell us the way evolution really happened, on his own authority. This is pretty arrogant for a guy with no recent publications in the field, and whose work (as far as I can tell) is never or rarely cited by Shapiro, Newman, Wagner, Jablonka, or any of the other currently important evolutionary theorists.

Larry has an inflated idea of his own importance within evolutionary theory. In fact, in reality, he is just one more of 10,000 guys in the world with a Ph.D. in biology or biochemistry or genetics who is under the illusion that knowing one of those fields automatically makes one an expert on evolutionary theory and evolutionary mechanisms. But the people who actually *do* evolutionary theory seem to take little notice of Larry Moran (or his blog site) at all.

Of course, maybe I’m wrong. Maybe Larry regularly gets invited to big conferences on evolutionary theory to be the keynote speaker; maybe his judgments are revered around the world the way Ernst Mayr’s used to be. If so, I’ll be glad to be corrected, and to retract my statements. Someone here can write in with evidence of the hundreds of times Larry’s research on evolutionary mechanisms have been cited in the literature, with the details of the publications Larry hasn’t bothered to list on his web site, etc. What I can see for the moment, however, is that Larry Moran is a nobody in evolutionary theory, a biochemistry teacher at Toronto with an interest in evolutionary theory who is convinced he knows more about it than almost everyone else on the planet, but with no track record to corroborate that opinion.

That’s the problem with the internet age. Through web sites and blogs, it gives people the ability to be prominent, and many readers assume that prominence equals importance. But it doesn’t. The Kardashians and Paris Hilton are as prominent in popular culture as Tom Hanks or Meryl Streep, but they aren’t nearly as important. To be important, as opposed to prominent, one has to demonstrate ability. *Ability*, not the verbal fluency to hold forth on a subject on a blog site. And in science, ability is proved not on blog sites but at conferences, in articles, and in books. So what is needed is a list of Larry’s publications in these venues.

Comments
I won’t further respond to his groupies, who are merely apologists with no interest in addressing my argument honestly.
Do you have any interest in presenting it honestly? Can you please point to some examples of his dismissing leading evolutionary theorists in the way you describe?wd400
June 4, 2015
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Zachriel: I suspect that you know very little about biochemistry. If you knew anything about it, you would know that a general textbook in biochemistry (like a general textbook in any science -- do you know *any* natural science at all, or are you just a BSer?) will cover the whole range of subjects needed to introduce someone to biochemistry, not just the professor's special interest within biochemistry. So while there might be a chapter or two on "molecular evolution," there will be much else in the textbook that has nothing to do with "molecular evolution." In any case, textbooks do not count as pieces of research; they are digests of existing knowledge. The fact that Larry wrote a biochemistry textbook for undergrads has no bearing on his expertise in graduate and post-graduate discussions of evolutionary mechanisms, which is what we are talking about. If you are going to do what Larry does -- review books on evolutionary theory on your website, and sneer at their contents on your website, you need to have a higher level of knowledge of evolutionary theory than the level of knowledge needed to write the chapters in a biochemistry textbook. If you don't know this, Zachriel, you know diddly about science education -- which of course I have long suspected. Of course, you yourself haven't even bothered to obtain Larry's textbook or examine it; you are just reflexively defending him based on the fact that he wrote one. And this is so typical of internet Darwinists, to attack or defend based on hearsay. Curly: Why are you so concerned over whether or not Mung understands basic biochemistry, while Zachriel, who seems to be a complete ignoramus about the field (based on his stupid comments here), gets a free pass? You Darwinists never criticize each other in public -- which shows that you are a partisan movement, not a group of individuals aiming at truth and therefore willing to disagree among yourselves. You're also being hypocritical, Curly, in just giving Moran a pass for shifting away from research to education. If an ID person does that (e.g., Behe, who published something like 36 technical articles in biochemistry but now works more on teaching and ID stuff), you and your pals are all over Behe, saying he is "no longer a scientist" etc. and is utterly incompetent to discuss evolutionary theory because he is not working in the field, but if Moran does the same thing, he can talk about evolution all he wants, deciding which major evolutionary theorists are wrong and which are right? Give me a break, Curly. You are so partisan it's disgusting. Only skram here is being intellectually honest. He concedes my point that Larry appears to have stopped doing active research in evolutionary theory; and in science, once one stops doing active research in a field for an extended period (like, 10 years or more), one is not considered "current" and one's qualifications to judge the work of those who are still current are in question. That does not mean that one cannot offer comments, even good comments; it does mean that one should offer one's comments modestly, as coming from a junior partner rather than the senior partners of the firm. Larry writes as if he the senior partner and major shareholder, and that's what I'm objecting to. He hasn't earned that status in evolutionary theory, not even if you take his lifetime publications into account, let alone his paltry output in the past 10 years. He's essentially now nothing more than an interested outsider in evolutionary theory, a biochemist with some knowledge but not a major player, and he should act accordingly. But the ego that drives scientists to run blog sites is not compatible with such professional humility. This is my last word on the subject. Larry's silence, to me, proves that I am on target regarding his research output. I will respond to him if he posts here, with information I did not previously have available about his work, but I won't further respond to his groupies, who are merely apologists with no interest in addressing my argument honestly.Timaeus
June 4, 2015
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So, I'll ask again, are there any examples of Moran dismissing prominent evolutionary theorests. Especially in a way takes Moran himself look like a leading light in the field? Thus far this claim seems to be supported only by Timaeus' assertions. I also think the claim that people on Moran's "side" are unable to crticise him is a bit strange. When UD occasionally stumbles into biology it's common for commenters with very little understanding of biology to write of the entire discipline of evolutionary biology (or "Darwinism") as being some sort of atheist conspiracy, often with vitriolic language. Very few IDers seem keen to reign in such posters, so why focus on how supporters of evolution react to Moran's post.wd400
June 4, 2015
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Man, what planet are you on Mungy? Nothing you've said is even remotely intelligent. You're trying to downplay the fact that the guy wrote a biochemistry textbook by pointing out that it's not the only biochemistry textbook or the first? Ok. Let me know when you even understand basic biochemistry.Curly Howard
June 4, 2015
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Translation: "You've just made me look like a fool, so do shut up." Sure Curly, I'll leave you to it. You really don't need my help.Mung
June 4, 2015
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Mungy, I'm sorry you've reached the point in your life where posting comments that are completely devoid of substance on the blog equivalent of Monty Python is the highlight of your day. Let me know if you ever actually have something to say.Curly Howard
June 4, 2015
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One has to wonder whether there were no biochemistry textbooks when Larry Moran was learning biochemistry. Larry Moran's textbook did not come out until 1994 (iirc), and he wasn't the sole author. Meanwhile, by way of comparison, Lehninger's Biochemistry came out in 1970.Mung
June 4, 2015
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Timaeus, the guy literally wrote the book on biochemistry... You crack me up. Really.Mung
June 4, 2015
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Andre @ 107. Priceless. The one explanation Larry does offer is a Darwinian answer. "Brains evolved because they conferred selective advantage on the animals that possessed them." Of course, for brains to evolve, they first have to exist.Mung
June 4, 2015
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Timaeus, the guy literally wrote the book on biochemistry and he teaches an upper level molecular evolution course at a major university. His job it appears has shifted from research solely to education, which often occurs with tenured professors. He doesn't even have a research lab at Toronto to my knowledge. He knows biochemistry and evolution and is trying to spread knowledge, though whether he goes about it the wrong way is up for debate. While you're here, what was the article and mistake Timaeus? Great overanalysis, Burger. There are many reasons UD is absurd, the fact that people are using an anonymous website where disgruntled students (anyone could post there actually, maybe you or your friends have) trash their professors as a useful source of information, is just one of those reasons. A former professor of mine had an oversized ego as well and many poor ratings; he was a great professor in my opinion and is currently on the cutting edge of research in mammalian development.Curly Howard
June 4, 2015
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EugeneS: Of course, I would. The problem is, how do you know unless you look at their research in detail and judge for yourself? If you already knew everything about molecular evolution, you wouldn't have to call upon a university professor. We're talking about an appeal to authority, which is a type of inductive argument. The professor could be a kook, or have unorthodox views that prevents him from giving you the orthodox response, or simply not know the answer to the particular question; but a professor teaching molecular evolution, having written a textbook on biochemistry with an evolutionary approach, who did research in molecular evolution, would be much more likely to have the correct answer than "a bunch of the boys getting together in the bar after work and BS-ing about all kinds of subjects they know in only a half-baked way."Zachriel
June 4, 2015
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Zachriel, "More than likely, if you really wanted to win that million dollars, you would ask the professor of biochemistry who did research in molecular evolution." Of course, I would. The problem is, how do you know unless you look at their research in detail and judge for yourself? This is why I said it is a matter of standard. At face value though, before you actually turn to their research record, the first of the two is more credible, to me.EugeneS
June 4, 2015
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Curly writes, "The fact that ratemyprofessor.com is even being used as a source of reliable information here just goes to show the absurdity of UD. I guess I shouldn’t really be surprised though." Look how interesting that is. Curly says that the absurdity of an entire site can be exposed by a few comments. In fact, he expresses a great deal of certainty about that. On the other hand, a few comments from actual students of Larry Moran can in no way be considered acceptable, as Curly would have it, with regard to considering Moran's behavior. This is not only a double standard, it is an egregious one. For we here are considering a variety of different perspectives on the abilities and demeanor of Professor Moran. Timaeus, the original poster, did not even mention the ratemyprofessor.com site. Considering the original post and the 122 comments so far, the amount of time spent looking at Larry's poor assessment by his students is much less than ten percent of the discussion here. But that's all Curly needs to dismiss and discredit the whole site. Notice that. He is doing the exact thing that he justifies dissing this whole site for. And he is the ONLY one actually doing that, because absolutely NOBODY here is relying solely on ratemyprofessor.com as a slam dunk case against Larry. Poorly done, Curly.soundburger
June 4, 2015
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EugeneS: It’s a matter of taste and measure and of your own personal educational standards. You're on "Who Wants to be a Millionaire". You can ask your congenial bartender friend or cranky Larry Moran concerning a question about molecular evolution. More than likely, if you really wanted to win that million dollars, you would ask the professor of biochemistry who did research in molecular evolution. But, as you said, it's a matter of taste. EugeneS: ‘I understand it, nobody else does’? Is that a supposed quote from Larry Moran?Zachriel
June 4, 2015
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Zachriel, "Not sure why that would even be considered controversial." It's a matter of taste and measure and of your own personal educational standards. As somebody else pointed out, who do you believe more (for argument's sake assuming they are of equal caliber in science): a person who says 'nobody really understands how this works' or a person who says 'I understand it, nobody else does'? At face value (even before looking at their research record), I would be inclined to give credit to the former because it may be a sign of sober skepticism, a valuable merit of a good scholar. But then again, it is a matter of standard.EugeneS
June 4, 2015
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Timaeus: why are so many people willing to take him as a major figure purely on his say-so Who's taking Moran as a "major figure"? The question is whether he is a valid authority on evolution, when he is obviously qualified in molecular evolution. That doesn't make him right, and an appeal to authority is only valid when there is a sufficient consensus in the field, and the authority is speaking to that consensus. There is a consensus concerning the fundamentals of evolution, including the common ancestry of people and pufferfish. Again, you might want to provide specific examples.Zachriel
June 4, 2015
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OFF-TOPIC Querius: He never responded to my repeatedly asking whether it was his habit of employing the majestic plural, or whether he had a tapeworm. A number of theories have been proposed concerning our use of nosism. If Zachriel were legion,
best friend is a pooka committee gaggle of grad students commune of pedants group of poseurs ultimate expression of internet group think hive weird cult collective pseudonym like Bourbaki five guys collective tri-unity plurality imaginary playmates being of more than one mind royalty, pluralis majestatis the Z-team, a team of Zachriels schizophrenic because it annoys you editorial, pluralis modestiae someone with a tapeworm dissociative identity disorder a bizzare pseudo-world affectation Jovian clique nervous tick possessed by demons a group of concerned citizens Got a mouse in your pocket? fellow at a Darwin institute gang of Z elaborate avatar created by a theist to explore the worldview of materialism a bot that some programmers designed for random argument
Zachriel
June 4, 2015
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Timaeus: If he does not know the developments in the area of evolutionary mechanisms since 1990, he cannot be counted as a current expert on evolutionary theory. As he is a professor of biochemistry teaching molecular evolution, a scientist who did research in molecular evolution in the 1990s, and just recently published an updated edition of his textbook on biochemistry taught with an evolutionary approach, he can reasonably be considered an expert on molecular evolution. Not sure why that would even be considered controversial.Zachriel
June 4, 2015
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Timaeus, thanks for your reply at #55. I understand and I think a key word you used and emphasized in your response is *inappropriate*. Here even Wiki agrees: "When used inappropriately, it (ad hominem) is a fallacy". Also from wiki: "Ad hominem reasoning is not always fallacious, for example, when it relates to the credibility of statements of fact..". It seems to me that you have with clear insight picked up on and are appropriately raising an issue of credibility when he positions himself in a higher tier of expertise than he appears to deserve.steveO
June 4, 2015
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Mung #52, Your sense of humor is really great. I enjoy reading a lot of your posts :)EugeneS
June 4, 2015
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Curly: I concede that it would be wrong to dismiss Larry Moran as a researcher on the grounds of negative student reviews of his teaching. He might well be a great researcher, even if (I offer no opinion on the subject) he is a poor teacher. Hence, I deliberately avoided mentioning the student reviews or linking to them, so as not to introduce any prejudice, and I focused only on the lack of peer-reviewed research. However, I don't think the people here who drew attention to the teaching evaluations were using those evaluations as evidence that Larry was a poor researcher. I think they were suggesting that there was a thematic connection between his striking lack of positive connection with his students and his argumentative behavior on his website. And there may be something to that, but if so, it falls under the subject of character analysis, not the subject of the ranking of Larry Moran in the world of evolutionary biology. It was only the latter subject that I was concerned about, i.e., why does this guy think he is so important a figure in modern evolutionary theory, and why are so many people willing to take him as a major figure purely on his say-so, without even checking to see if he has actually produced anything on evolution other than blogs?Timaeus
June 3, 2015
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Bye Skram!Andre
June 3, 2015
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Andre:
Are you as deluded as Prof Moran? Are you?
Good bye, Andre.skram
June 3, 2015
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Oh brother. People, please. I've seen some great professors get terrible reviews on ratemyprofessor.com The fact that ratemyprofessor.com is even being used as a source of reliable information here just goes to show the absurdity of UD. I guess I shouldn't really be surprised though.Curly Howard
June 3, 2015
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Skram So when Dr Tour and here is his academic rap sheet;
Tour has over 550 research publications and over 75 patents, with an H-index = 104 (91 by ISI Web of Science) and i10 index = 416 with total citations over 52,000 (Google Scholar). Tour was named among “The 50 Most Influential Scientists in the World Today” by TheBestSchools.org in 2014; listed in “The World’s Most Influential Scientific Minds” by Thomson Reuters ScienceWatch.com in 2014; and recipient of the Trotter Prize in “Information, Complexity and Inference” in 2014; and was the Lady Davis Visiting Professor, Hebrew University, June, 2014. Tour was named “Scientist of the Year” by R&D Magazine, 2013. He was awarded the George R. Brown Award for Superior Teaching, 2012, Rice University; won the ACS Nano Lectureship Award from the American Chemical Society, 2012; was the Lady Davis Visiting Professor, Hebrew University, June, 2011 and was elected Fellow of the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS), 2009. Tour was ranked one of the Top 10 chemists in the world over the past decade, by a Thomson Reuters citations per publication index survey, 2009; won the Distinguished Alumni Award, Purdue University, 2009 and the Houston Technology Center’s Nanotechnology Award in 2009. He won the Feynman Prize in Experimental Nanotechnology in 2008, the NASA Space Act Award in 2008 for his development of carbon nanotube reinforced elastomers and the Arthur C. Cope Scholar Award from the American Chemical Society for his achievements in organic chemistry in 2007. Tour was the recipient of the George R. Brown Award for Superior Teaching in 2007. He also won the Small Times magazine’s Innovator of the Year Award in 2006, the Nanotech Briefs Nano 50 Innovator Award in 2006, the Alan Berman Research Publication Award, Department of the Navy in 2006, the Southern Chemist of the Year Award from the American Chemical Society in 2005 and The Honda Innovation Award for Nanocars in 2005. Tour’s paper on Nanocars was the most highly accessed journal article of all American Chemical Society articles in 2005, and it was listed by LiveScience as the second most influential paper in all of science in 2005. Tour has won several other national awards including the National Science Foundation Presidential Young Investigator Award in Polymer Chemistry and the Office of Naval Research Young Investigator Award in Polymer Chemistry.
So when Dr Tour makes the claim that nobody really understands macro-evolution and Prof Moran in his usual pompous arrogance says he does who do we believe the guy with almost no papers or the guy with 550?Andre
June 3, 2015
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But lets contrast Professor Moran with another Biochemist Dr James tour, you know that guy that builds molecular cars? Here is his Bio...... http://chemistry.rice.edu/FacultyDetail.aspx?RiceID=1027 Who do I believe here Skram? Know it all Prof Moran or humble Prof Tour? Which one would you entrust with your children's education?Andre
June 3, 2015
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This is a Professor at a highly regarded or reputable University (take your pick), my eight year old son would rip me a new one if I tried to give him such a lame duck nonsense answer. And this is a professor preparing our youth for the future? WTF? Are you ok with that? Critical thinking? Are you as deluded as Prof Moran? Are you?Andre
June 3, 2015
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Please focus particularly on question 4 and its answer..... How is it that a creature like ourselves, that stem from these unguided processes have the ability to contemplate it? Brains evolved because they conferred selective advantage on the animals that possessed them. How on earth is that even a reasonable answer Skram?Andre
June 3, 2015
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Skram..... Lol... Prof Larry Moran playing victim...... shame....... He only did that because he could not really backup his ask me anything post...... He tried but is this an honest answer? My questions.... Anything? I'll ask four, you can pick one. 1. Why are we here? 2. How does dead matter come alive? 3. When did random mutation and natural selection start? 4. How is it that a creature like ourselves, that stem from these unguided processes have the ability to contemplate it? The great Prof Larry Moran's answers... 1. I don't know. The question doesn't have much meaning for me. 2. When things die they don't come back alive. 3. I don't know. Presumably it was when the first primitive cells developed a DNA or RNA genome. 4. Brains evolved because they conferred selective advantage on the animals that possessed them. You're welcome.Andre
June 3, 2015
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Andre, I thought Larry Moran gave you an honest answer. You didn't seem to like his answer, so you started needling him and he called you out. Is that a fair summary of the transaction?skram
June 3, 2015
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