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Timaeus Exposes Larry Moran

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All that follows is from UD commenter Timaeus:

Larry Moran wrote:

“I’ve been trying to teach Denyse about evolution for almost twenty years. It’s not working.”

Perhaps teaching is not your strong point, Larry. There is some empirical evidence of that, I believe.

Or perhaps it is expertise that is the problem. Last time I checked your website for your publications on evolutionary theory, I found many popular articles on ID and creationism, and some apparently self-published biochemical data on your university website. I couldn’t find a single article on evolutionary theory in a peer-reviewed journal on the subject for over 10 years into the past. For someone who has so many opinions on evolution, and voices them so loudly in non-professionally-controlled environments such as blog sites, you are surprisingly absent from the professional discussions. Perhaps you can explain the inverse relationship between your popular involvement in debates over evolution and your visibility in the technical books and articles on the subject of evolution.

It strikes me that spending hundreds of hours every year trying to convince ID people and creationists they are wrong would not be as profitable a use of a Toronto professor’s time as actually researching evolutionary mechanisms and publishing the findings at academic conferences, in books, and in journals.

[TIME PASSES]

I’ll take Larry Moran’s silence on my request for a list of his recent peer-reviewed publications in evolutionary biology as a concession that he has no such publications. I.e., I will infer that he is a commentator on debates over evolutionary theory, not an evolutionary theorist himself.

Of course, being a commentator on something is not a bad thing in itself. For someone to say: “Gould says such-and-such about evolutionary mechanisms, and Futuyma says something different, and Coyne says something different, and here are some of the points over which these men have disagreed” — that would be pedagogically useful for many readers. But that’s not the way Larry Moran has ever written about evolution.

Larry writes in this fashion: “Evolution doesn’t happen that way; it happens this way.” That is, Larry does not merely describe what the experts think, and indicate areas of possible strength in weakness in their various views, but tells his readers which views are right and which are wrong, which evolutionary biologists know what they are talking about and which don’t. He poses as someone who can referee the conflicts, who stands above all the others and can pass judgment on their scientific competence and the correctness of their theories, and, in a pinch, when none of them is right, can tell us the way evolution really happened, on his own authority. This is pretty arrogant for a guy with no recent publications in the field, and whose work (as far as I can tell) is never or rarely cited by Shapiro, Newman, Wagner, Jablonka, or any of the other currently important evolutionary theorists.

Larry has an inflated idea of his own importance within evolutionary theory. In fact, in reality, he is just one more of 10,000 guys in the world with a Ph.D. in biology or biochemistry or genetics who is under the illusion that knowing one of those fields automatically makes one an expert on evolutionary theory and evolutionary mechanisms. But the people who actually *do* evolutionary theory seem to take little notice of Larry Moran (or his blog site) at all.

Of course, maybe I’m wrong. Maybe Larry regularly gets invited to big conferences on evolutionary theory to be the keynote speaker; maybe his judgments are revered around the world the way Ernst Mayr’s used to be. If so, I’ll be glad to be corrected, and to retract my statements. Someone here can write in with evidence of the hundreds of times Larry’s research on evolutionary mechanisms have been cited in the literature, with the details of the publications Larry hasn’t bothered to list on his web site, etc. What I can see for the moment, however, is that Larry Moran is a nobody in evolutionary theory, a biochemistry teacher at Toronto with an interest in evolutionary theory who is convinced he knows more about it than almost everyone else on the planet, but with no track record to corroborate that opinion.

That’s the problem with the internet age. Through web sites and blogs, it gives people the ability to be prominent, and many readers assume that prominence equals importance. But it doesn’t. The Kardashians and Paris Hilton are as prominent in popular culture as Tom Hanks or Meryl Streep, but they aren’t nearly as important. To be important, as opposed to prominent, one has to demonstrate ability. *Ability*, not the verbal fluency to hold forth on a subject on a blog site. And in science, ability is proved not on blog sites but at conferences, in articles, and in books. So what is needed is a list of Larry’s publications in these venues.

Comments
Timaeus: The amount of evolutionary theory that is absolutely required of biochemistry majors in the vast majority of schools is *minimal*. Here's our original exchange. T: If Moran regards his blogging as merely a fun activity, the equivalent of a bunch of the boys getting together in the bar after work and BS-ing about all kinds of subjects they know in only a half-baked way, then fine Z: Biochemistry is much more closely related to evolutionary biology than bartending. Timaeus: Whether or not molecular evolution is Moran’s specialty is irrelevant to the discussion. Of course it's relevant. Timaeus: Someone can have a specialty and still not be very great in his field. Quite true. Moran has published research on molecular evolution in many high-impact scientific journals. Timaeus: Every university professor has a specialty, but not every university professor is a world-class figure within that specialty. True again. However, we can generally rely upon them to state mainstream views in their field. Timaeus: You clearly can’t produce them on his behalf. We've provided three previously.
Brown, Lowe & Moran, Expression of heat shock genes in fetal and maternal rabbit brain, Neurochemical Research 1985: "Cloned fragments of members of the Drosophila and mouse major heat shock (hsp70) gene family were used to demonstrate that homologous sequences are present in the rabbit genome."
Timaeus: The question on the table is: “Is Larry Moran the great authority on evolutionary biology that he thinks he is?” How great does he think he is? velikovskys: So the goalposts have moved considerably T, perhaps upon reflection perhaps you realized the goal of teaching Denyse would required a world leading expert to have a chance to succeed. Heh. bFast: You didn’t punt and run did you? Perhaps someone might start a thread on Behe's claims.Zachriel
June 3, 2015
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Zachriel, in 68 above I asked: Zachriel, “Behe does have some understanding of evolutionary theory, but he is simply wrong.” You didn't punt and run did you? I believe that Behe put two serious challenges on the table. The first has been responded to with a "just so" story or two. This seems to be the way of evolutionary biology. Y'all are so cocky about your philosophical position that you don't feel a need to put the challenge to the test. The physicists, on the other hand, seem to take challenges to their theories very seriously. They spend millions, nay billions, of dollars on experiments to confirm or falsify their positions. When is a study that has attempted to get flagellum from non-flagellum going to be published? That's the way science should be done.bFast
June 3, 2015
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Timeous: Your continued use of “we” means either that you have a psychological problem, in which case you should see the appropriate kind of medical practitioner, I believe you have made this observation before ,could you please provide your academic credentials in psychology? or that you are a pompous ass trying to draw attention to yourself by writing “royally.” But all you’ve drawn attention to is your pomposity — and your lack of knowledge of this subject-matter. Don't forget the other options T. You get an F for your efforts, Zachriel.You have failed to provide the evidence I’ve asked for. Orginally you responded to Larry's smart ass comment with one of your own Larry :I’ve been trying to teach Denyse about evolution for almost twenty years. It’s not working.” Timeous :Perhaps teaching is not your strong point, Larry. There is some empirical evidence of that, I believe. Or perhaps it is expertise that is the problem. Last time I checked your website for your publications on evolutionary theory, I found rmany popular articles on ID and creationism, and some apparently self-published biochemical data on your university website. I couldn’t find a single article on evolutionary theory in a peer-reviewed journal on the subject for over 10 years into the past. So it seems at least at first, you only required enough expertise to undertake the Sisyphean task to successfully teach Denyse, which you defined as peer reviewed paper within 10 years. Seems at bit arbitrary, but whatever. I want to be convinced that Larry Moran is one of the world’s leading experts on evolutionary mechanisms, and is regarded as such by the leading experts themselves So the goalposts have moved considerably T, perhaps upon reflection perhaps you realized the goal of teaching Denyse would required a world leading expert to have a chance to succeed.velikovskys
June 3, 2015
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Timaeus, I was responding to your opening post:
Larry Moran wrote: “I’ve been trying to teach Denyse about evolution for almost twenty years. It’s not working.” Perhaps teaching is not your strong point, Larry. There is some empirical evidence of that, I believe. Or perhaps it is expertise that is the problem. Last time I checked your website for your publications on evolutionary theory, I found many popular articles on ID and creationism, and some apparently self-published biochemical data on your university website. I couldn’t find a single article on evolutionary theory in a peer-reviewed journal on the subject for over 10 years into the past. For someone who has so many opinions on evolution, and voices them so loudly in non-professionally-controlled environments such as blog sites, you are surprisingly absent from the professional discussions. Perhaps you can explain the inverse relationship between your popular involvement in debates over evolution and your visibility in the technical books and articles on the subject of evolution. It strikes me that spending hundreds of hours every year trying to convince ID people and creationists they are wrong would not be as profitable a use of a Toronto professor’s time as actually researching evolutionary mechanisms and publishing the findings at academic conferences, in books, and in journals.
In a nutshell, you were saying that Larry Moran isn't qualified to teach IDers and creationists some evolution because he isn't a good teacher and hasn't done any relevant research. Given the level of understanding of evolutionary theory by your side, Moran is more than qualified to do what he does. Perhaps you have developed some other theme later in the comments, but that is not relevant to your opening post.skram
June 3, 2015
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Zachriel, stop being a fool. The amount of evolutionary theory that is absolutely required of biochemistry majors in the vast majority of schools is *minimal*. If you are actually in the life sciences, you must know that, and therefore you are being stubborn. And if you're not in the life sciences, or haven't at least rubbed shoulders with life scientists to the extent that I have, then you don't know what you're talking about, so you should stop talking. If Larry Moran knows a great deal about evolutionary theory, it is *not* because he took the minimum amount of biology required in an undergraduate biochemistry program. His knowledge of evolutionary theory would require much study of evolutionary theory beyond that minimum. You stated or implied that biochemists *as such* know a considerable amount about evolutionary theory, and that's just dead wrong, but you're too proud and stubborn to admit it. Whether or not molecular evolution is Moran's specialty is irrelevant to the discussion. Someone can have a specialty and still not be very great in his field. Every university professor has a specialty, but not every university professor is a world-class figure within that specialty. Some are only mediocrities in their specialty, and some are actually quite poor in their specialty. I have met dumb specialists in mathematics, biochemistry, biology, history, philosophy, musicology, etc. I have also met dumb doctors, dumb lawyers, dumb accountants, dumb engineers, dumb computer programmers (some of them paid $200,000 a year by outfits like Microsoft) etc. Having a formal area of expertise doesn't make you any good at that area of expertise. Fakery is possible, and falling behind the times in knowledge is possible. The way the academic world sorts out who is excellent, who is good, who is mediocre, and who is poor, is, generally speaking via publications. If Moran is in the "excellent" category when it comes to evolutionary theory, he will have a large number of publications in that field. If he has them, he can produce them. You clearly can't produce them on his behalf. You can't name one later than 1990. But that won't stop you from arguing. That's what you're here for -- to reflexively say "nay" when anyone on the ID side says "aye." The idea of conceding a point to anyone on the ID side is alien to your polemical, partisan nature. The question on the table is: "Is Larry Moran the great authority on evolutionary biology that he thinks he is?" If you have evidence pertaining to that question, trot it out. The fact that he is a biochemistry professor who teaches one undergraduate course on molecular evolution is insufficient evidence to sustain the thesis. Let's see the list of publications. Let's see the list of testimonials from Gunther Wagner, Eva Jablonka, James Shapiro, Allen Orr, Richard Lewontin, etc. regarding how much they have learned about evolutionary theory from reading the work of Larry Moran. If you can't provide such evidence, stop BS-ing and go away.Timaeus
June 3, 2015
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Timaeus: I never said that Moran was not competent in evolutionary theory. Not just competent, but did research in molecular evolution, is a university profession teaching molecular evolution, wrote a textbook, now in its 5th edition, on biochemistry using an evolutionary approach. That makes him a competent authority. It doesn't, however, necessarily make him right. Timaeus: And my complaint is not that Moran knows nothing about evolutionary theory, but that Moran writes as if he is a world-class authority in the subject, when, based on the evidence, he is just another biochemist who has taken an interest in the subject of evolution, no more knowledgeable about evolution than three or four thousand other biologists or biochemists around the world. Yet he writes in a lordly manner, as if he is needed to correct all the wrong thinking about evolution that evolutionary biologists hold. So your concern is his tone, his lordly manner, not his expertise? Timaeus: Behe’s advanced training in biochemistry did not require any substantive training in evolutionary theory. Molecular evolution is a specialty, however, any biochemistry major will have studied biology, which, as you know, includes evolutionary theory. Perhaps Behe didn't pay much attention. In any case, molecular evolution happens to be Moran's specialty.Zachriel
June 3, 2015
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What is an evolutionary biologist field of expertise? Non-existent evolutionary mechanisms?Box
June 3, 2015
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Zachriel, "Behe does have some understanding of evolutionary theory, but he is simply wrong." How so? I think Behe has two predominant theories, his "irreducible complexity" argument exemplified by the bacterial flagellum, and his "edge of evolution" argument which, supported by formal study, suggests that if two mutations are required to achieve an effect, and if neither offers any selective advantage on its own*, then within mammalia, it would probably never happen. Please show why Behe is wrong on these two points. * Note that Larry Moran suggests that the benefit must be more than "slight", or selection will not care.bFast
June 3, 2015
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Zachriel: So you still can't name a single article on evolutionary theory published by Moran in the past 10 years in a peer-reviewed scientific journal. I rest my case. Also, you are as dense and as incapable of comprehending the English language as skram is. I never said that Moran was not competent in evolutionary theory. Lots of professors are "competent" in a subject without being world-class authorities in a subject. And my complaint is not that Moran knows nothing about evolutionary theory, but that Moran writes as if he is a world-class authority in the subject, when, based on the evidence, he is just another biochemist who has taken an interest in the subject of evolution, no more knowledgeable about evolution than three or four thousand other biologists or biochemists around the world. Yet he writes in a lordly manner, as if he is needed to correct all the wrong thinking about evolution that evolutionary biologists hold. In replying to my remarks about Behe, you wandered into Moran's views on selection, showing that you completely misunderstood the point of what I said about Behe, which was not to contrast Behe's view of evolution with Moran's, but only to show that Behe's advanced training in biochemistry did not require any substantive training in evolutionary theory. I'm waiting for you to withdraw your claim that a biochemist necessarily knows anything substantive about evolutionary theory, but I don't suppose you are man enough ever to admit an error. Your continued use of "we" means either that you have a psychological problem, in which case you should see the appropriate kind of medical practitioner, or that you are a pompous ass trying to draw attention to yourself by writing "royally." But all you've drawn attention to is your pomposity -- and your lack of knowledge of this subject-matter. You get an F for your efforts, Zachriel. You have failed to provide the evidence I've asked for. I want to be convinced that Larry Moran is one of the world's leading experts on evolutionary mechanisms, and is regarded as such by the leading experts themselves. Show me the evidence for this, or be quiet.Timaeus
June 3, 2015
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Hey Timaeus, you never told me what paper you corrected a mistake in and what the mistake was. Are you still refusing?Curly Howard
June 3, 2015
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Ah, the old if you don't know enough to counter me I don't have to know what I'm talking about ploy. Always a perennial favorite at blog sites.Mung
June 3, 2015
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Timaeus: So… two articles, one from 1985 and one from 1990. So on your evidence, even if we count those two articles as “evolutionary theory” (which is debatable), you can’t produce an article from Larry in the past 25 years. Quite a few research articles, if you look. He has since moved into teaching biochemistry from an evolutionary perspective. If your argument is that he is dated, well, he is getting rather gray. Timaeus: It was only when he investigated the evolutionary biology literature for himself (which he hadn’t done before, it evidently not being necessary for his own research) that he discovered that the Darwinian explanations weren’t there, or were sketchy or defective. Are you conflating darwinism with evolution? Moran doesn't reject the importance of natural selection to adaptation, but believes that many changes on the molecular level are due to other mechanisms. Timaeus: Perhaps Larry Moran has done so; I don’t say that he hasn’t. I say there is no visible evidence that he has. We've provided some such evidence, and pointed out that you can find more if you look. Biochemistry can be rather dry, though.
Lowe & Moran, Proteins related to the mouse L-cell major heat shock protein are synthesized in the absence of heat shock gene expression, PNAS 1984: "Using a fragment of a cloned gene encoding the Drosophila melanogaster Mr 70,000 heat shock protein (hsp70), we have shown that this protein has been highly conserved during eukaryotic evolution."
Timaeus: My opinions about scientific matters come not primarily from websites but from long personal contact with people in the sciences Good for you. Timaeus: You sound awfully sure of yourself on these issues. You never modify your views, and you stand in judgment on some of the most celebrated surgeons, physicians, and medical researchers in the nation. Moran's opinions are well within the mainstream for molecular evolution, his specialty.
An appeal to authority is valid when * The cited authority has sufficient expertise. * The authority is making a statement within their area of expertise. * The area of expertise is a valid field of study. * There is adequate agreement among authorities in the field. * There is no evidence of undue bias. The proper argument against a valid appeal to authority is to the evidence.
You are arguing Moran doesn't have sufficient expertise, but as he did scientific research in molecular evolution, as he teaches the subject, and even wrote a textbook on the subject, he is a valid authority in the field of molecular evolution. Moreover, Moran supports his statements by referring to scientific evidence.Zachriel
June 3, 2015
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In answer to the question in 61 above -- which may be asked with gentle or malign intention -- I will say that I have taught at several different institutions of higher education, including major research universities, regional universities, liberal arts colleges, and community colleges. I have taught in several different departments, have served on departmental committees, examined graduate theses, designed curriculum, and published many books and articles. I do not intend to give my current location to anyone here. And my current location has nothing to do with the point at hand, which is: why is a guy with no visible track record in evolutionary theory posing as one of the world's authorities in the field, and why should anyone treat him as such? Why shouldn't he be treated as simply as an opinionated biochemistry professor with a far-below-standard academic publication record in the field he is opinionated about?Timaeus
June 3, 2015
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skram: I see that you continue to show the same stubbornness and uncooperativeness in conversation that you used to show at Telic Thoughts. You argue to win a public victory, not to shed on light on the subject under discussion. If *you* knew universities, you would know that not *all* universities use the same system of designating their courses. I didn't happen to remember Toronto's system offhand, which is why I asked the question. In fact, I did suspect that it was an upper-year undergraduate course, based on the numbering, but didn't want to say so dogmatically. I have seen cases where graduate courses use such numberings. I was merely being cautious, not wanting to assert something without certainty, and you jump on me for it. That is petty. Typically, you ignore virtually every argument I made in my post -- presumably because you have no answer to the arguments. Your reading comprehension, or possibly your attention span, leaves something to be desired. I never said that Larry Moran was not qualified to teach some people here some things about evolution. Did you even try to grasp my point? I even restated it for you, since you obviously did not get it right from my (very clear) initial statements; but it still appears to have sailed past you. I said that Larry Moran writes about evolutionary theory superciliously, and writes as if he has a better understanding of the most advanced theoretical questions about evolutionary mechanisms than almost anyone else in the world. It is not just ID people and creationists that he condescends to; he even writes dismissively about the views of other atheist evolutionary theorists with whom he disagrees. He does not write as if he might be wrong; he writes "evolution doesn't happen that way; it happens this way" as if he has the matter very much under control and that others who don't hold *his* views on evolutionary mechanisms just don't think straight. He shoots down the books and ideas of well-published evolutionary theorists (even atheists like himself) holding prestigious positions at places like Chicago, while his own publication record in the field is, as far as I can tell, extremely spotty, so spotty that if he were in Gonzalez's position at Iowa State he definitely would not have been awarded tenure. Who appointed this guy--a guy with no academic visibility in the professional world of evolutionary theory for over 10 years now--judge and jury of correct evolutionary theory? Who gave him the right to speak to the people who actually *are* researching and publishing in the field as if he were Moses and they were the lowly Israelites at the foot of the mountain? As far as I can tell, his blogging position as the Arbiter of Opinions Regarding Evolutionary Mechanisms is a self-appointment. This has nothing to do with ID. I would have the same objection to Moran if I were a hardened atheist. He *doesn't* claim merely to have a good general understanding of evolutionary theory, adequate to teach Toronto undergrads. He thinks of himself -- very plainly -- as one of the big guns in the field. But who else in the field thinks of him as a big gun? That's what I want to know. If you have information on what Larry has published in the past ten years, or if you have information on how the leading evolutionary theorists of the world regard Larry's work, then speak up. If you don't have information of this kind, your responses to me are useless, and worse than useless, simply flak for the sake of offering flak. If you can't stay on topic, I wish you would simply be silent.Timaeus
June 3, 2015
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Where do you teach, Timaeus?evnfrdrcksn
June 3, 2015
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Skram, You seem to be missing the point. I read Sadwalk daily and Professor Moran belittles professors, authors or the regular dummy like myself. His commentators on his blog sing in harmony how "Idiots" don't publish papers in reputable journals. Their lack of publication is often reason to dismiss them in general. You can't have it both ways. Although, to be fair, Professor Moran will claim anyone who isn't aligned with his belief "doesn't understand evolution". Admittedly I'm a casual observer but I'd think if Professor Moran is indeed a high caliber scientist he's wasting his gift.beau
June 2, 2015
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Timaeus, For someone claiming to be in academia, you seem to know very little about its workings. It's pretty easy to tell from the course number that it is a senior-level undergraduate course (the listed prerequisites are sophomore and junior-level). I doubt that there is anyone here on the ID side who understands evolution at the senior undergraduate level, certainly not Denyse. Someone who teaches at that level at U Toronto is more than qualified to teach people here. One needn't be "the greatest evolutionary biologist since Ernst Mayr" to do that.skram
June 2, 2015
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skram: Your reasoning is deeply flawed. First of all, did you determine whether that course was an undergraduate or graduate course? If it was only an undergraduate course, it doesn't necessarily indicate cutting-edge professional knowledge on the part of the instructor. Even if it was a graduate course, it might not indicate that -- I've attended graduate courses where the professor's knowledge was not exactly cutting edge. Second, teaching a subject does not at all establish one's *advanced* competence in the subject. One's competence in the more advanced aspects of one's field may become out of date. The way to keep one's competence up is to be constantly researching and publishing. Lots of professors use the same old lecture notes, year after year, and don't keep up to date. Unless you yourself have taken Moran's course, or have seen his notes, you have no idea at all of the quality of the material, or how up-to-date it is, or whether most evolutionary biologists would think it was good material. Especially since evolutionary biology is not even close to your field. Yes, Toronto is a good institution overall, but it doesn't follow that everyone who teaches there is equally good, and it doesn't follow that all its professors will keep up the research end once they get tenure. You of all people should know that, since you argued here until you were blue in the face that Iowa State was *right* to deny tenure to Gonzalez, one of the reasons cited by you being a drop-off in research productivity. So now you are saying that research productivity isn't important for a tenured professor to maintain? It's OK if he just teaches? Are you changing your tune, skram? You didn't think 15 articles in 4 years was good enough to keep Gonzalez on the payroll, but you think apparently zero articles in the past 10 years is good enough to justify keeping Moran on the payroll? Also, you badly confuse being able to expound a subject with being a leading expert in it. If you bothered to read my original comments carefully, you will see that my complaint was not that Larry Moran knew nothing at all about evolutionary theory. He might well know enough about evolutionary theory to teach students that Ohno believes this and Dawkins believes that and Shapiro believes that, etc., and even, as I said above, to point out strengths and weaknesses in the various positions. My complaint was never that Larry knew nothing about evolutionary theory, but about his dialogical stance, which has always been (at least on his blog site) that of one of the greatest experts on evolutionary theory around, dismissing the views of those who don't agree with his views of evolutionary mechanisms, and speaking as if he can referee between the big guns. No one has the right to that kind of rhetorical superiority unless he has a *record of achievement* greater than that of the people he is condescending to, dismissing haughtily, etc. I am asking for evidence that Larry Moran has produced scientific research *in the field of evolutionary biology* (undergrad textbooks in biochemistry don't count) in the past 10 years, research that is *widely read, used, and admired by the worldwide community of evolutionary biologists*. Only such a record could justify the haughtiness that he employs in his writing about evolutionary theory. His fly-by-the-seat-of-the-pants arguments on his blog site do not count as research. If you know of peer-reviewed publications of his in evolutionary biology which are not listed on his website, trot them out. I'm open to the conclusion that he is the greatest evolutionary biologist since Ernst Mayr. But I won't accept his say-so for that. I want the judgment of the community of evolutionary biologists. Show me that the community of evolutionary biologists has as high an opinion of the evolutionary theory of Larry Moran as Larry Moran does. If you can't do that, I'll look for someone else who can. (And nothing is stopping Larry himself from putting up a new c.v. on his website with the scores of recent peer-reviewed articles he neglected to list before.)Timaeus
June 2, 2015
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Yet I think we're still waiting for Larry's review of Masatoshi Nei's Mutation-Driven Evolution.Mung
June 2, 2015
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Timaeus, I think your requirement of being an active researcher in evolutionary biology is a bit over the top. Moran teaches evolutionary biology at the college level: Molecular Evolution BCH447H. At the University of Toronto, a top institution of higher education in Canada. That already establishes his competence in the subject.skram
June 2, 2015
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steveO: I'll answer your gentle and fair question with an example. Suppose I started writing a weekly blog on medical issues. Suppose that every week I commented aggressively on opinions voiced by top U.S. medical authorities, stating who was right and who was wrong regarding compulsory vaccinations, AIDS, alleged genes for homosexuality, and many other subjects. Suppose I dripped with disdain for people who disagreed with me, and suppose I was never observed to give even an inch on an opinion once I had planted my feet. Now suppose that someone said to me: "You sound awfully sure of yourself on these issues. You never modify your views, and you stand in judgment on some of the most celebrated surgeons, physicians, and medical researchers in the nation. Can you tell us what medical experience you have that gives you this confidence that you know more than all of them? Do you have an M.D. degree? Have you ever practiced medicine? Have you ever personally done research involving clinical trials? Have you ever published anything in a peer-reviewed medical journal?" I would not take such a line of argument as "ad hominem" -- not if "ad hominem" implies an *inappropriate* focus on the person's background. Anyone has a right to ask about another person's qualifications. No one would think of hiring a barber to take out his appendix, just because barbers have some experience with cutting tools. We all would want a qualified surgeon. And you wouldn't entrust engine repairs to your car to someone who had no track record at fixing cars, though he was really good at fixing bicycles. I'm asking Larry Moran to produce his body of work in evolutionary theory, just as I would ask a doctor to produce his medical license or medical school transcript or record of internship. If he has the body of work, he won't object to the question. He will only object to the question if he doesn't have the body of work. If asking that question is "ad hominem" then I have to plead guilty to the charge of "ad hominem" remarks. Note that I am not saying that any particular statement of Larry's is *false* merely because Larry might not be formally an evolutionary biologist. That would be a bad kind of "ad hominem" argument. I'm asking, rather, what accomplishments of his in the field of evolutionary biology have led him to regard himself as one of the world's greatest evolutionary theorists. If I asked Mozart why he thought of himself as a greater musician than Haydn, he might give me a list of his concertos, keyboard pieces, and other works, and say: "these are better overall than anything Haydn has produced." I'm asking Larry why he thinks he knows more about evolutionary theory than Shapiro, Wagner, Jablonka, etc. I'm asking him to objectively estimate his own accomplishments in the field of evolutionary theory, and to show us those accomplishments so that we can decide whether those accomplishments are as great as he thinks they are. Is that a personal attack? I don't think so. But of course atheist evolutionists are a prickly bunch and may well take it in that way. Well, too bad. Moran dishes it out to people, with withering scorn. If he can't take the heat, he should get out of the kitchen. And I've actually challenged him much more politely than he usually challenges ID people. Either Larry has a track record in the field, or he doesn't. If he has it, let him produce it.Timaeus
June 2, 2015
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Zachriel: I did "look it up myself." I looked in the logical place -- on Larry's own university website. Science professors -- as you would know if you were actually a scientist yourself, instead of an internet faker -- very frequently provide a c.v. on their institutional websites. When I last looked at Larry's I was shocked at how little he had published of a non-popular nature in the past ten years, especially since his atheist gang is always belittling ID people for not being real scientists because they don't publish enough. In any case, if the two pieces you cite were on his website, I've already seen the references. So... two articles, one from 1985 and one from 1990. So on your evidence, even if we count those two articles as "evolutionary theory" (which is debatable), you can't produce an article from Larry in the past 25 years. So the most you can say, based on your own personal knowledge of his publications, is that he used to be an evolutionary theorist, 25 years ago. And that qualifies him today, in 2015, to play referee over the world's top evolutionary theorists? Give me a break. Glad you admit that Behe has some understanding of evolutionary theory. But you are still not getting the point. Behe himself, when speaking autobiographically in several different spots, says that he did *not* learn evolutionary mechanisms as a biochemist; indeed, he says that he, like most people in the life sciences, originally just took it for granted that Darwinian evolution was true and that buried in science libraries were thousands of articles showing the step-by-step molecular means by which evolutionary change had occurred. That is, he assumed that not ordinary biochemists like himself, but specialist evolutionary biologists (albeit with some knowledge of biochemistry), were looking after the causal explanation end of Darwinian theory. It was only when he investigated the evolutionary biology literature for himself (which he hadn't done before, it evidently not being necessary for his own research) that he discovered that the Darwinian explanations weren't there, or were sketchy or defective. So obviously one can go all the way to a Ph.D. in biochemistry without studying evolutionary theory in any detail. I am not arguing that no biochemist ever voluntarily takes undergrad or graduate courses in evolutionary theory. I am not arguing that no biochemist ever takes up evolutionary theory as a research subject. I am not arguing that a biochemist could not happen to know a great deal about evolution. I am not saying that Larry Moran cannot know anything about evolution because he is a biochemist. I am merely disproving your false claim that a biochemist necessarily knows any great amount about evolutionary theory. That simply is not true, and you should disabuse yourself of that notion immediately. My complaint is not that Larry Moran is a biochemist who talks about evolution; it is that he is a biochemist who talks about evolution as if he were an authority on the subject, without having any visible proof of his authority in the subject. If you look at the c.v. of Ayala, or Mayr, or Dobzhansky, or Gould, etc., you will see what it means to be an authority on evolutionary theory. It means having proved to the scientific world, time and time again, through publication in the peer-reviewed academic venues, that one has mastered the field. Perhaps Larry Moran has done so; I don't say that he hasn't. I say there is no visible evidence that he has. What I see is a man who talks very volubly and very frequently about evolution, and has enough knowledge of it to make his talk superficially plausible to legions of internet readers, most of whom are not themselves qualified to assess evolutionary theory at a high level and wouldn't know it if he was "snowing" them. What I don't see is a man who does active research and publication in the field. Normally a person is who not active in research and publication in a field is not considered a world expert on it. You would know this, if you were actually a scientist yourself. I notice that you "prove" things by looking them up on websites. My opinions about scientific matters come not primarily from websites but from long personal contact with people in the sciences, from my undergrad days forward. Perhaps that is why I have a more realistic view of what science is about than you do.Timaeus
June 2, 2015
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Timaeus: A biochemist is not necessarily “trained in evolutionary theory” *at all We checked several university websites, they all seem to require a background in biology and genetics, which, as you know, currently includes evolution. There's even a sub-specialty of biochemistry called evolutionary biochemistry. Timaeus: Biochemistry is a 100% a-historical science, whereas evolutionary theory is a historical “science.” The citation to Lindquist & Craig provided by Mung concerns chemists discussing evolution. Timaeus: It would mean that from biochemistry (i.e., from the characteristics of “heat shock proteins”) we can draw some inferences about evolution, not that we learned anything about the chemical or physical properties of “heat shock proteins” from evolutionary theory. Biochemistry often involves understanding the evolutionary history of a molecule. For instance, Mung cited two chemists, Lindquist & Craig, who discuss the evolution of heat-shock proteins. Timaeus: you must agree that Michael Behe, also a biochemist, necessarily knows a great deal about evolutionary theory. Behe does have some understanding of evolutionary theory, but he is simply wrong. Timaeus: neither you nor anyone else here will tell me what Larry has published. Have you considered looking it up yourself?
Nicholson, Williams & Moran, An essential member of the HSP70 gene family of Saccharomyces cerevisiae is homologous to immunoglobulin heavy chain binding protein, PNAS 1990: "An evolutionary comparison of amino acid sequences of 34 HSP70 proteins from 17 species suggests that BiP genes share a common ancestor, which diverged from other HSP70 genes near the time when eukaryotes first appeared."
Lowe & Moran, Molecular Cloning and Analysis of DNA Complementary to Three Mouse M, = 68,000 Heat Shock Protein mRNAs, The Journal of Biological Chemistry 1985: "The data suggest that there are marked differences in the evolutionary constraints for hsp7O proteins in different species"
Zachriel
June 2, 2015
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I wonder how much money I could make if I tell people about the OOL prize and then sell Miller-Urey kits. I should keep track of how many sold to bio-chem professors.Mung
June 2, 2015
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Mung (quoting): The DNA sequence that makes up this family of genes is highly conserved across species. Do you know what is meant by a "family of genes"? http://figshare.com/articles/_Phylogenetic_tree_of_Hsp70_family_in_vertebrates_/711306Zachriel
June 2, 2015
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TSErik So have I. Yet it's still an issue...scottH
June 2, 2015
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@scottH
Throw in the Miller-Urey experiment. . .
Right!? I had an instructor vehemently assert that the Miller-Urey experiment completely solved the abiogenesis issue.TSErik
June 2, 2015
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"Biology only make sense in the light of evolution" is a favorite refrain of the evotard choir.Mapou
June 2, 2015
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Timaeus @42, Bravo. Here's to hoping that Zachriel will run away with his tail between his legs. But I know it's wishful thinking on my part. Zachriel refers to himself as a "we". It's because he is possessed by a demon with many heads, a legion of maleficent spirits. Cut off one head and another appears in its place. We are going to need a more inventive approach to this exorcism. :-DMapou
June 2, 2015
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TSErik Agreed. I'm finishing my undergrad in Bio and every class that mentions Evo my professors give the same vague examples of micrevolution. Throw in the Miller-Urey experiment and a few just so stories and that's about it. I thought biology only made sense in the light of evolution? For a theory that explains everything, I'm sure not hearing about it. Who knows, maybe I happen to get the professors that don't know about Evo either.scottH
June 2, 2015
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