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Too hot to handle: Update on the PLoS ONE paper

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The retraction of a PLoS ONE paper on the hand that made repeated reference to a Creator shows that biologists are “very hostile to those who invoke the supernatural in their science,” writes Professor Jerry Coyne. But it turns out that the paper’s authors weren’t referring to God, but Nature. One of the paper’s authors, Ming-Jin Liu, explains:

We are sorry for drawing the debates about creationism. Our study has no relationship with creationism. English is not our native language. Our understanding of the word “Creator” was not actually as a native English speaker expected. Now we realized that we had misunderstood the word “Creator.” What we would like to express is that the biomechanical characteristic of tendi[n]ous connective architecture between muscles and articulations is a proper “design” by the Nature (result of evolution) to perform a multitude of daily grasping tasks. We will change the “Creator” to “nature” in the revised manuscript. We apologize for any troubles may have caused by this misunderstanding.
(Spelling of “tendinous” corrected by me. – VJT.)

Another commenter writes:

The phrase ‘the creator’ has nothing to do with a designer god from the two-party-state, the Afro-Eurasian sky deity, or Mr Paley’s writings, but is a well-known ancient Chinese way of saying something alike “nature” or “evolution”, by way of zaohua zhe 造化者 ‘the Creator, creation’ (or, more literally, “the one who forms and transforms”, or “what forms and transforms”).

The commenter then proceeds to quote from The Encyclopedia of Taoism A-Z (edited by Fabrizio Pregadio, 2008, Routledge; article “creation” by Isabelle Robinet, vol. II, p. 1214):

The term zaohua, which means ” to inform (zao) and transform (hua),” derives from the *Zhuangzi and is generally used as a synonym for the cosmos. Zaohua zhe 造化者, lit., “what informs and transforms [the world],” is the Dao itself or its *qi (pneuma), the energy of life that does not create anything, but, like a potter, gives a determinate and transient form to the indeterminate. The analogy ends here, because the zaohua zhe is neither a person nor an entity, and does everything naturally and spontaneously without working. In this sense, zaohua is a synonym of *ziran (natural or spontaneous).

Zao is the coming of something out of nothing (*wu), and hua is the return to emptiness. Zao is movement, and hua is quiescence (see *dong and jing).
(Emphasis mine – VJT.)

The commenter buttresses his case by quoting a passage from the writings of the Greek physician Galen of Pergamon (129-200 or 216), who expresses sentiments similar to those of the paper’s authors:

It was, then, for the sake of these activities [ἕνεκα μὲν δὴ τούτων] that the
convexities at the ends of the ulna and radius came to be; but nature also makes use of
them to secure another advantage [χρῆται δ’ αὐταῖς καὶ πρὸς ἄλλο τι χρηστόν],
just as she is accustomed frequently to make something that has come to be on account
of one thing serve other uses as well [τῷ δι’ ἕτερόν τι γεγονότι συγχρῆσθαι καὶ
πρὸς ἄλλα]. For she located the heads of the tendons moving the fingers in the
concavity between these eminences, thus establishing as if with a wall or tower a safe
refuge for the tendons. (UP 2.11, 1.97.19-98.2 H, 3.133 K)
(Schiefsky, Mark J. 2007. Galen’s teleology and functional explanation. In Oxford Studies in Ancient Philosophy 33, ed. D. Sedley, 369-400. Oxford: Oxford University Press.)

In his paper, Schiefsky acknowledges that Galen “describes the construction of the human body as the result of the effort of a supremely intelligent and powerful divine Craftsman or Demiurge,” but he goes on to argue that this reflects “a highly sophisticated, functional analysis of the organism,” and he suggests that in the foregoing passage, we can think of Galen as referring to “nature’s craftsmanship.”

Skeptical readers might object that in another passage, the authors of the offending article in PLoS ONE also wrote that “Hand coordination should indicate the mystery of the Creator’s invention,” which suggests a theistic interpretation. But a 2005 article in MIT Technology Review refers to “Nature’s inventions,” and similar phrases can be found in textbooks on evolution.

Retraction Watch has set up a poll inviting readers to weigh in on the issue: Should “the Creator” paper have been retracted? The results are as follows:

Correct it 42.4% (254 votes)
Retract it 26.54% (159 votes)
Issue an expression of concern while it investigates 22.2% (133 votes)
Nothing 8.85% (53 votes)

However, the main issue in this ongoing saga is not whether the authors actually intended to allude to a “Creator,” or but the clear evidence (manifested in readers’ comments) of a bias against publishing ID-friendly views in the mainstream literature. One commenter writes:

Regretfully I have to withdraw my support for the journal as a reviewer. Also to bring this shameful incident to the attention of my academic colleagues and students who might consider submitting their work for publication at PLOS ONE.

Another scientist who is also a PLoS ONE academic editor writes:

As a scientist, as well as a PLoS ONE academic editor and author I feel outraged by the publication of a ms making explicit reference to creationism. This is an extremely serious issue for which the academic editor who handled the paper as well as the journal, besides the authors themselves, should be blamed.

I feel my scientific reputation to be put at risk by this incredible mistake, so should this paper not be retracted as soon as possible I will be compelled to resign from my position of PLoS ONE academic editor. Moreover, I am determined to avoid taking on any further assignment until this issue is fully solved.

That is the kind of mindset we are up against, folks.

For readers who may be interested, here’s a short article by creationist Brian Thomas M.S., titled, Human Hand Capabilities Impossible to Duplicate. And here’s a copy of The Fourth Bridgewater Treatise on the Power, Wisdom, and Goodness of God as Manifested in the Creation: The Hand; Its Mechanism and Vital Endowments as Evincing Design (1833), by Sir Charles Bell (1770-1842), K.H., F.R.S., F.R.S.E., F.R.C.S.E., M.W.S. This was science as it used to be done.

Comments are welcome.

Comments
Origenes: Nonresponsive. In the midst of a mountain range a pile of rocks can look like a horse but that fact doesn’t extend a “distinct entity” to this pile of rocks. Of course it can. Naturalist: Do you see yonder pile of rocks that's almost in the shape of a horse? Origenes: Looking like something is not the same as having that identity — not under naturalism or any other ‘—ism’ that I’m aware of. A pile of rocks in the shape of a horse isn't a horse — of course. However, most naturalists can easily recognize a large solid-hoofed herbivorous ungulate domesticated mammal of the genus Equus as a horse, even though it is made up of atoms. Origenes: Sure, like I said nothing over and beyond elementary particles. Again, naturalism doesn't imply atomism, but given atomism, an object is the observed clump of atoms that has its own distinguishing properties. There's nothing inconsistent in naturalism with this view.Zachriel
March 6, 2016
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AE, Let's pick a sample as the slice of the cake showing key ingredients:
[KF:] “Were someone to go to Pluto and find there an ice temple similar to Stonehenge, such a person would not conclude that it canot be designed, but instead that it was a product of extraterrestrial design.” [AE:] There we disagree. A thinking person would conclude that it “MAY” be the product of extraterrestrial design. I would look for supporting evidence, as we see with the real Stonehenge, before claiming anything more concrete.
AE, of course the context is of imagined future Sol system exploration and in fact it comes from a Sci Fi work I ran across somewhere. Extraterrestrial means of course from beyond Earth. In this case, humans would not be available candidates for an icehenge on the Dwarf Planet known as Pluto. But the specification, temple similar to Stonehenge at Salisbury in the UK is joined to, of patently high complexity. The obvious conclusion any archaeologist would make with moral certainty is, design. By extra terrestrial designers would arise from the context that human designers are ruled out. In short, the confinement of design inferences to humans as an objection is a strawman tactic. KF PS: The design inference process is not a universal decoder algorithm, nor does it need to be. The issue is not a claim to recognise all instances of design but to with high confidence recognise some cases on empirical signs. Of which FSCO/I is one. Where as a practical matter, decoding encrypted strings shows a further level of FSCO/I. But the patterns are often recognised as signal not noise on characteristics long before decoding. Indeed the very metric signal to noise ratio in t/comms is itself an indicator of how routinely design detection occurs in some fields of science and technology.kairosfocus
March 6, 2016
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Zachriel,
Origenes: A naturalist cannot coherently hold that a “Lego horse” is a “distinct entity”, especially not when she is in scientific mode.
Zachriel: Of course they can. They say, “Look at that arrangement of Lego blocks. It looks like a horse!”
Nonresponsive. In the midst of a mountain range a pile of rocks can look like a horse but that fact doesn’t extend a “distinct entity” to this pile of rocks. Looking like something is not the same as having that identity — not under naturalism or any other '—ism' that I’m aware of.
Origenes: The naturalist holds that a Lego horse is nothing over and beyond Lego blocks.
Zachriel: “It’s an arrangement of Lego blocks that looks like a horse!”
Does it make you an airplane when (with the help of some theatrical props) you look like an airplane?
Origenes: Similarly a naturalist holds that a human being is nothing over and beyond elementary particles.
Zachriel: “It’s an arrangement of organic molecules (which are arrangements of atoms which are arrangements of quarks) that reproduces itself.
Sure, like I said nothing over and beyond elementary particles.
Zachriel: Let’s call these arrangements ‘life’, and this particular arrangement ‘human’.”
These theistic terms are meaningless under naturalism and unscientific if they refer to anything over and beyond elementary particles.Origenes
March 6, 2016
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KairosFocus: "For, the existence of human designers shows that design is possible and actual, " Agreed. "...indeed that it has certain characteristic patterns in a great many cases that render it instantly recognisable and distinguishable from things that emerge from blind chance and/or mechanical necessity." We agree that humans are very good at identifying things build by other humans. Is that so surprising? Dogs can also identify the feces of other dogs. "Next, there is no good reason to infer that humans exhaust the set of possible designers. We are contingent beings, who happen to have the capacity to design." Again, we agree. "Were someone to go to Pluto and find there an ice temple similar to Stonehenge, such a person would not conclude that it canot be designed, but instead that it was a product of extraterrestrial design." There we disagree. A thinking person would conclude that it "MAY" be the product of extraterrestrial design. I would look for supporting evidence, as we see with the real Stonehenge, before claiming anything more concrete. "There is a whole literature that is based on that possibility, science fiction." Operative word being "fiction". "So, the objection is not serious." Your unsubstantiated opinion has been duly noted. "Instead, from what humans have done and do, e.g. Venter et al with genomes, we know that design of life forms is possible,..." I must have missed the groundbreaking paper about humans designing life from scratch. I think the term you were looking for is that the "modification"'of life forms is possible. Darwin wrote extensively in a little book he wrote. Maybe you have heard about it. "One of the relevant signs of such, with a trillion member observational base is functionally specific complex organisation and/or associated information; FSCO/I. " No, we have only demonstrated that it may be used to identify human design. "Text such as in your objection is a classic example, and the description strings used to specify design or config of the PC you composed it on or whatever variant thereof, would be equivalent i.e. discussion on strings is WLOG." If your comment was encrypted, it would still retain the same label of FSCO/I (possibly more because of the encryption). How would you know this if you didn't have the decryption key? "Going further, the physics and parameters of the observed cosmos show strong evidence of fine tuning that sets up the framework for C-chemistry, aqueous medium, cell based life." All this shows is that things in our universe must obey the physical constraints of our universe. How is that surprising? "Even through a speculative multiverse, the sort of local fine tuning this points to is a strong indicator of design of the cosmos we inhabit." Again, your unsubstantiated opinion has been duly noted.Algorithm Eh
March 6, 2016
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I didn't read into the report any attempt to promote God ... but to acknowledge the Creator for what was created ... the human hand ... and again I view this as entirely appropriate. The conclusions of the report lie in the data produced. References to "the Creator" were not a conclusion, but more along the lines of an acknowledgment. And to repeat ...has there been damage in suppressing the report?ayearningforpublius
March 6, 2016
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This topic is too funny. It is bad to attribute something to a Creator but it is OK to attribute it to mother nature even though that claim is totally untestable.Virgil Cain
March 6, 2016
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Zachriel:
Let’s define a scientific claim as one which is based on its fit to objective empirical evidence.
That means chimps and humans sharing a common ancestor is not a scientific claim as it is not based on objective empirical evidence. Heck most of the claims from evolutionism are not scientific claims.
However, the process of science allows humans to extend beyond the evolved limitations of the individual brain.
Except if one is an evolutionist. Then you are pretty much stuck in a very small box with no hope to extend beyond its confines.Virgil Cain
March 6, 2016
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ayearningforpublius @ 51 A Scientific Journal is supposed to draw a scientific conclusion, not a philosophical conclusion. There are Philosophy Journals for Philosophy. However, as I said in an earlier comment,the paper is good and should be published. I don’t think National Basic Research Program of China (973 Program, Grant No. 2011CB013301), and National Natural Science Foundation of China (Grant No. 51335004), which come under Ministry of Science and Technology, would fund the paper to promote God!Me_Think
March 6, 2016
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My wife and I attended a yearly gathering of about 500 middle school musicians and singers from around the state of Connecticut -- our 13 year old granddaughter was among the 500. My attention was especially drawn to the hands of the many participants and of the conductors. Watching the conductors leading the several choirs with many body queues, especially with hand and finger gestures was fascinating -- as was watching the many hands and fingers producing amazing music as many fingers danced across the whole range of orchestral instruments. Truly an amazing day and demonstration of the wonders of the human hand. I find it entirely appropriate, and even commendable, that a group of researchers studying the intricacies of the human hand should (intentionally or not) credit the design they are trying to capture to a “Creator” and to ascribe the language of design to their model – the human hand … even in a so called “scientific” journal. As far as I could tell, the end purpose of this study was for robotic or prosthetic purposes, and not to prove the existence of a “Creator.” I read through many of the on-line comments to the PLoS ONE paper, and was appalled at the bigotry and small/closed mindedness of many of those professing to be the gate-keepers of this journal. It’s as if they have their heads inside a barrel with their fingers firmly stuck in their ears lest they hear the incessant drum beat of design coming from outside the barrel. What I would suggest to these gate-keepers is to avail themselves of the many opportunities within their own campus and city to study first hand the beauty, adaptability and intricacies of the human hand. Get out of the laboratory … get out of the lecture hall … get out of the book you are writing. Go to an orchestral and choir event. Go to a baseball game and witness the execution of that perfect double play. Go to a football game and watch that amazing throw and fingertip catch that wins the game in the final seconds. Go to a fine art museum and gaze at the fine paintings and sculptures created by those many human hands. Go to the surgical unit at a local hospital and watch the skilled and trained hands at work on needy patients. Go to you library and scan through some of the hand written manuscripts you might find there – and carefully look at and read the US Constitution and the Declaration of Independence written carefully by human hands. Then I would suggest a retreat back to the office, lab and lecture hall to ponder a bit: 1) Did I perhaps witness just a bit of that “divine foot in the door” in any of what I’ve seen around campus? 2) How many generations of folks like me before we stumble on the origin of the hand by evolutionary means? Will we ever even approach it? 3) About that report – it’s been retracted with seemingly little concern over the validity and/or use of the data and insights collected. Is it possible that some young enthusiastic researcher/engineer could have made use of the study in providing a somewhat useful hand to that wounded soldier? Guess that doesn’t matter as long as the feelings, yes feelings, of the Atheists is protected. And I would ask this exercise to be repeated with a focus on differing parts of the human anatomy.ayearningforpublius
March 6, 2016
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tjguy: ie – when a Christian baker refuses to bake a cake for a gay wedding, is fined, Do you think the baker should be able to refuse to sell a cake to blacks, to Jews, to a mixed couple, claiming a religious exemption? tjguy: and threatened by the radical gay movement and sometimes even attacked for their beliefs, – well sometimes that causes me to have negative feelings. This shows your ignorance of the actual source of the vast majority of violence, which has been directed against gays, often by Christians.Zachriel
March 6, 2016
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Origenes: So I am, from the standpoint of physics (the true standpoint according to physicalism) a different person “No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man.” — HeroclitusZachriel
March 6, 2016
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Origenes: A naturalist cannot coherently hold that a “Lego horse” is a “distinct entity”, especially not when she is in scientific mode. Of course they can. They say, "Look at that arrangement of Lego blocks. It looks like a horse!" Origenes: The naturalist holds that a Lego horse is nothing over and beyond Lego blocks. "It's an arrangement of Lego blocks that looks like a horse!" Origenes: Similarly a naturalist holds that a human being is nothing over and beyond elementary particles. "It's an arrangement of organic molecules (which are arrangements of atoms which are arrangements of quarks) that reproduces itself. Let's call these arrangements 'life', and this particular arrangement 'human'." kairosfocus: It self-falsifies, stumbling fatally in the starting gates. That's your claim, but one you haven't been able to support. kairosfocus: Evolutionary materialism is necessarily false by force of the logic of self contradiction. Saying it again doesn't strengthen the claim. Let's define a scientific claim as one which is based on its fit to objective empirical evidence. This limits many sources of error that are implicit in the individual and imperfect evolved brains. The combined efforts of humans, especially written abstraction, are not subject to the same evolutionary limitations as individual evolved brains. We can even use this process to study the limitations of those evolved brains. Does this mean that science is infallible? Indeed not. In the words of Douglas Adams, “The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well, on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be.” However, the process of science allows humans to extend beyond the evolved limitations of the individual brain.Zachriel
March 6, 2016
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Hi tj, re:42 I think it is true that some people who once believed in God, but changed that belief in part due to bad things happening to them, are angry. However, at that point it wouldn't be God they were angry at, but rather the people and social environment in which their former belief in God was fostered. Also, I imagine it is true that believers sometimes are angry at God when bad things happen, and that they sometimes reconcile that anger by passing into disbelief. However, there is a great deal of religious support for reconciling with that anger and returning to belief with a different sense of acceptance and understanding. Also, you write,
Funny how Christians are not allowed to desire that their beliefs be reflected in public policy, but when an atheist seeks to have public policy reflect his beliefs, that is totally fine. The two worldviews clash and that is why we have a voting process. Everyone is permitted to have their opinion and vote according to their beliefs. Atheists do it and there is nothing wrong with Christians doing it. We live in a democratic society.
I absolutely agree with what you say about the role of voting and our place in a democratic society. On the other hand, I, at least, certainly said nothing about Christians "not [being] allowed to desire that their beliefs be reflected in public policy, but when an atheist seeks to have public policy reflect his beliefs, that is totally fine." Everyone has a right to desire that their beliefs be reflected in public policy, and to work for that in the democratic process. Also, everyone has a right to draw their motivations for their desires from whatever source they wish: for one to say that they are against same-sex marriage, to take an example, because it goes against their Christian beliefs is just fine. They can then take that argument into the public square and use it as part of their effort to persuade others, as part of the political process to get others to think and vote likewise. Again, democracy at work. But that doesn't mean that everyone will agree with them. It also doesn't mean that the fact that the motivation for belief is religious will be seen by everyone as being relevant. We all have negative emotions (and unfortunately anger is one of the more common ones these days) towards the ideas of people, and often the people themselves, who disagree with us. Learning to try to reconcile differences without dichotomizing and demonizing people with different perspectives is one of the main tasks facing our culture today. But, on the other hand, the fact that a political position is motivated and based on a religious belief is not going to be a relevant argument to someone who doesn't hold those religious beliefs. I'm not going to support a law just because a Christian says it's Biblically based anymore than I'd support a law because it was based on Jewish, Hindu, Native American, or Islamic belief. Laws need to be such that people of all those persuasions see some common need, based on common values. (And please note, this whole discussion is not about "Christians vs atheists": there is a very broad spectrum of differing beliefs between various religions, and between different Christian denominations.) I'll also note that there is a large difference between making choices based on one's religious beliefs for oneself and having us, as a society, pass laws that are primarily intended to embody particular religious beliefs. For instance, there is a difference between religious denominations and their associated churches saying that, in respect to our religion, marriage is between a man and a woman, on the one hand, and the laws of the land saying that a same-sex couple can enter into a civil marriage contract, just like any other two people, outside of any religious context. In short, if you object to same-sex marriages, don't have one. And if you and a set of like-minded people in a church object, don't marry same-sex couples. And, if you wish, work to persuade people through our democratic process to deny same-sex couples the right to a civil marriage (as opposed to religious). However, in this later case, I think you should expect some negative emotions, and even anger, because why should people who don't have your religious beliefs be kept from marriage just because you do have those beliefs? Now I know there are further complexities here, and that probably getting drawn into a long discussion about this (such as by writing this post) would be a mistake on my part. There are many issues concerning the role of law and the courts in balancing religious neutrality and making room in society for specific religious beliefs. But in general my belief is that religious belief doesn't have some special status. Obviously you can make religious arguments as part of engaging in political persuasion, but the fact that an argument has a religious basis isn't going to mean anything to those who don't share those beliefs, and shouldn't have any special weight in the eyes of the law.Aleta
March 6, 2016
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Me_Think @44, Your incorrect quotation of Reppert reveals that you don't grasp his argument.Origenes
March 6, 2016
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Hi steveh, In answer to your query in #38 above, I was referring to the Intelligent Designer of Nature when I wrote of the Creator in reference to my ankle healing up.vjtorley
March 6, 2016
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Origenes @ 43,
How is that a response to what Victor Reppert @40 has said?
If the mind is just a complex interaction of the brain, then I could only be the same person - Reppert
He wouldn't have a mind without all the interactions of brain synapses and physical rewiring every time he had a new experience from fourth grade till the time he made the statement. Every time his synapses grew in numbers, there were more connections, more processing power - his mind is proportional to his brain's synapses. His ability to process language - which forms the basis of his thinking mind - is directly proportional to physical changes in brain synapse network. He is a different person precisely because the complexity of brain increased with every experience he had, and brain's ability to process both language and inputs from changing environment over a long period of timeMe_Think
March 6, 2016
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Me_Think @41, How is that a response to what Victor Reppert @40 has said?Origenes
March 6, 2016
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Aleta @ 36
Baloney. Atheists are not angry at God. Among other things, why would one be angry at a being that one does not believe exists?
Aleta, this is how it works at times. Something bad or painful happens to a person. If that person was someone who did believe in God, perhaps they might become angry at him. After a while, they decide that since this terrible thing happened, God could not possibly exist or He would have not let this happen to them. So, they simply decide that He doesn’t exist and reject Him. So, true, they no longer believe that He exists, but for many people, there was a time when they did believe that He existed. And, as a result, more often than not, there was a time when they were angry at Him.
There are things atheists, and others, are angry about in respect to people who believe in God and who want those beliefs to be reflected in public policy and or personal relationships, but that’s different.
Funny how Christians are not allowed to desire that their beliefs be reflected in public policy, but when an atheist seeks to have public policy reflect his beliefs, that is totally fine. The two worldviews clash and that is why we have a voting process. Everyone is permitted to have their opinion and vote according to their beliefs. Atheists do it and there is nothing wrong with Christians doing it. We live in a democratic society. Christians feel the same way you do when immoral things are reflected in public policy. We don’t happen to think that it is a good idea to kill babies still in the womb – nor do we think that there is any difference between a baby 5 minutes before it is born and 5 minutes after it is born. We do not believe that men should be able to use women’s locker rooms if they identify as a woman and traumatizing all the women in the facility. This kind of thing makes us angry so we can certainly identify with what you are saying!
I can also have some negative emotions and judgments towards people who think the laws of our land should reflect their Christian beliefs to the exclusion of other’s beliefs.
You that’s really interesting. I find the same thing is true!! I can also have negative emotions and judgments toward people who think the laws of the land should reflect their chosen atheistic worldview in exclusion of my beliefs. ie - when a Christian baker refuses to bake a cake for a gay wedding, is fined, and threatened by the radical gay movement and sometimes even attacked for their beliefs, - well sometimes that causes me to have negative feelings. How dare they think their morals should be forced on others? In there worldview, there is no absolute right and wrong anyway, so why can't they allow for a difference of opinion? Obviously, from these actions, it is clear that they really do believe in real right and wrong and in doing so violate their own worldview.tjguy
March 6, 2016
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Origenes @ 40 If the synapses in his brain hadn't grown from few millions to trillions, he would be mentally challenged!! The brain has to keep rewiring its physical structure (the amplitude of the post-synaptic neuron’s response increases) with every new experience. If neurotranmitters (glutamate ,GABA,acetylcholine, dopamine, adrenaline, histamine, serotonin and melatonin) don't keep crossing into synaptic gaps between neurons few times every second, you will be brain dead !It is constant physical change at both electrical and electro-chemical level that keeps the body's involuntary systems- including heart- running and keeps you alive.Me_Think
March 6, 2016
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Victor Reppert on materialism and its logical conclusions .
If the mind is just a complex interaction of the brain, then I could only be the same person I was when I was in the fourth grade if the physical content of my brain was the same as the physical content of my fourth-grade brain. But I would be surprised to learn if there was a single molecule in my brain today that was in my brain when I was in the fourth grade. So I am, from the standpoint of physics (the true standpoint according to physicalism) a different person from the person who heard in the lunch line the Kennedy had been assassinated, or even who received a Ph.D in 1989, or the one who got married in 1991, or whose shower was interrupted one Tuesday in 2001 to be told the that the World Trade Center buildings had been knocked down by airplanes. [Victor Reppert; february 16, 2016]
Origenes
March 6, 2016
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Vitz: http://www.leaderu.com/truth/1truth12.htmlkairosfocus
March 5, 2016
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Nature, it seems, is a lot nicer than we have any right to expect it to be, and given the extraordinary sequence of events that takes place when the body heals, I can only attribute its astonishing efficacy to the work of a Creator.
What do you mean by "Creator" in that last sentence? "Nature" and/or "evolution" as in the PLoS paper discussed in the OP or *the Designer" (nudge nudge wink wink) of ID? It can get very confusing when you switch from one to the other.steveh
March 5, 2016
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Even worse.Mung
March 5, 2016
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Baloney. Atheists are not angry at God. Among other things, why would one be angry at a being that one does not believe exists? There are things atheists, and others, are angry about in respect to people who believe in God and who want those beliefs to be reflected in public policy and or personal relationships, but that's different. For instance, I can have some negative emotions and judgments (although anger would be too strong a word for them) towards people who believe I am essentially amoral, irrational, and damned to hell just because I don't believe all the Christian stories about Jesus. I can also have some negative emotions and judgments towards people who think the laws of our land should reflect their Christian beliefs to the exclusion of other's beliefs. But these emotions and judgments are directed towards real people, not towards something that I consider fictional.Aleta
March 5, 2016
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"Since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.” I really like this bible scripture... Sometimes I wonder what excuse would the hostile biologist have toward God? My personal experience is that most atheists are angry toward God, for something that happened to them or their loved ones. I think that the movie "God is not dead" revealed some of those angry tendencies. But there has to be more to the story than that. My personal view is that Jerry Coyne could be blaming God for "making him overly liking cats and talking to them too much. (I think you all know what I mean by that) How about Larry Moran? He lost his father when he was a toddler. Could he be blaming God for not protecting his father's life in the so called "just war"? I would sympathize with Larry if his grief is just that... No kid wants to be adopted and raised by his adopted father. What if he is abusive? Who do you turn to? On the other hand we have Nick Mitzke who is a clear cut opportunists who would most likely disown his mother if he could get a grand even if it involve writing letters that cost the tax payers thousands of dollars... I always wondered what PZ Myers and R. Dawkins reasons were. I'm pretty clear about Dawkins though... I Don't know about PZ Myers' reasons...but I'm bound to find out....J-Mac
March 5, 2016
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Z, logic relates to coherence. You are erecting an irrelevancy and arguing as if it should then control discussion. Meanwhile you have no good answer to the self-referential incoherence of evolutionary materialist scientism. Which does have a connexion to truth -- that which says of what is that it is and of what is not that it is not. Namely as a cluster of self referentially incoherent claims C asserts or implies that some X is so AND is not so, C cannot be true. It self-falsifies, stumbling fatally in the starting gates. It does not even make it far enough to assert a fact claim left standing to check against empirical observation. Evolutionary materialism is necessarily false by force of the logic of self contradiction. Mix in ex falso quodlibet and we see it undermines ability to discern true from false. KFkairosfocus
March 5, 2016
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Zachriel: There’s nothing in naturalism that means objects can’t be recognized as distinct entities.
Surely you are mistaken. A naturalist cannot coherently hold that a "Lego horse" is a "distinct entity", especially not when she is in scientific mode. The naturalist holds that a Lego horse is nothing over and beyond Lego blocks. Similarly a naturalist holds that a human being is nothing over and beyond elementary particles.
Zachriel: (...) even for an atomist, there’s nothing to prevent them from recognizing how atoms clump.
Recognizing how atoms clump is scientifically ok. However naive projections of personhood are not.Origenes
March 5, 2016
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Origenes: Yes, unfortunately many act contrary to their own beliefs. There's nothing in naturalism that means objects can't be recognized as distinct entities. Naturalism is not the same as atomism, and even for an atomist, there's nothing to prevent them from recognizing how atoms clump. kairosfocus: Fit of scientific findings and theorising to observed evidence is an appeal to . . . coherence. Sure, but the measure still isn't the same as for logical truth. kairosfocus: And the issue on logic would not be truth but coherence. What you posted previously concerned truth.Zachriel
March 5, 2016
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Zachriel:
Scientific theories are not judged by the standard of logical truth, but their fit to the evidence, which is provisional.
Yours isn't a scientific theory and it doesn't fit the evidence. Two own goals in one. Nice job, Zachriel.Virgil Cain
March 5, 2016
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Algorithm EH:
A cave “functions” very well as a shelter.
No, not very well and not without work.
A meteor crater functions very well as a basin for a lake.
And yet not all such craters have lakes. And without constant resupply any water at the bottom of such a crater would just evaporate. You didn't think this through.Virgil Cain
March 5, 2016
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