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Two pretty good arguments for atheism (courtesy of Dave Mullenix)

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Move over, Professor Richard Dawkins. Atheism has a new champion.

Dave Mullenix has recently come up with not one but two philosophical arguments for atheism. Mullenix’s arguments, unlike Dawkins’, aren’t based on inductive inference, but on the unassailable facts that (i) a certain minimal amount of information (usually several bits) is required to represent a proper name; and (ii) a very large amount of information is required to represent all of the rules we follow, when speaking a language. Any Being that knows your name must be able to keep your name in its mind. That means its mind must be able to store more than one bit, so it can’t be the simple God of classical theism. Moreover, any Being that knows all the rules of a language (as God does, being omniscient) must be extremely complex – much more so than the first cell, say. And if it’s very complex, then its own existence is inherently even more unlikely than that of the living creatures whose existence it is supposed to explain.

I believe in addressing arguments for atheism head-on, especially good ones, so here goes.

Commenting in response to a question which I had previously posed to Dr. Elizabeth Liddle, “Why does a mind require something brain-like?”, Dave Mullenix argued as follows:

I would ignore brains and say instead that any mind needs billions of bits of carefully organized information to exist because a mind is, essentially, huge amounts of information interacting with each other. That’s what thoughts are – information acting on other information.

Think of it this way: Does God know your name? Just “vjtorley” is about 56 bits, although it could probably be compressed to half that. But just to give every one of the six billion plus people alive today a unique identifying code would take over 32 bits per person or several hundred billion bits of info total.

Or think of language in general: If He can understand English, He will need millions of bits of information just to cover the words, let alone how to put them together and do all the other processing that’s associated with understanding a language and that information needs to be “on line”.

This is the single biggest weakness in ID – ID in practice treats the existence of God as a given when in fact any thinking being at all, even a human-quality thinking being, requires so many gigabits of precisely ordered information that the unlikelyhood of that being “just existing” totally overshadows the relatively small information requirements (probably only a few hundred bits) of first life. And once you have first life, evolution can account for all the rest. Just ask Rabbi M. Averick.

I’ve taken the liberty of trying to make Dave Mullenix’s arguments against theism as philosophically rigorous as possible, and this is what I’ve come up with.

Argument A. An argument against the existence of the God of Classical Theism (an absolutely simple and omniscient Being)

1. Any entity that knows someone’s name has a representation of that name within his/her mind.
2. Proper names (e.g. Sam or Meg) have a minimal representation in excess of one bit.
3. If God exists, God knows everyone’s name. (By definition, God is omniscient, according to classical theism.)
4. Therefore if God exists, God’s mind contains representations whose length exceeds one bit.
5. A representation in excess of one bit is composed of multiple (two or more) parts.
6. Therefore if God exists, God’s mind has multiple parts.
7. But if God exists, God’s mind does not have multiple parts. (By definition, God is simple, according to classical theism.)
8. Therefore God does not exist. (If P->Q and P->not Q, then it follows that not P.)

This argument will not trouble all religious believers. Some of them might be tempted to say: “We can jettison classical theism but still retain our belief in God. Maybe God is omniscient, but complex.” But Dave Mullenix’s second argument discredits even this fallback position.

Argument B. An argument against the existence of an omniscient God who created life

1. If God exists, God knows each and every human language. (True by definition of omniscience.)
2. Any entity that knows a language has a representation of all the rules of that language within his/her mind.
3. Rules have a minimal representation in excess of one bit. (A rule contains several words; hence you can’t represent a rule using only a single bit.)
4. Since the rules of a human language include not only phonologic rules, morphologic rules and syntactic rules, but also semantic rules and pragmatic rules, the total number of rules in any given language is vast.
5. Therefore any entity that knows a language is capable of holding a vast number of bits of information (let’s call it N) in his/her mind.
6. Therefore if God exists, God’s mind contains an extremely large number of bits of information. In fact, this number is much larger than N, as N is the number of bits required to specify the rules of just one language, and there are roughly 10,000 languages in existence, to the nearest order of magnitude.
7. However, the number of bits in the minimal representation of the first living cell is smaller than N. (A living cell is complex, but it cannot be as complex as the total set of rules in a human language – otherwise we would be unable to describe the workings of the cell in human language.)
8. Indeed, it is probably the case that the total number of bits required to explain the existence of all life-forms found on Earth today is smaller than N. (Many ID advocates, including Professor Behe, are prepared to assume that front-loading is true. If it is, then the number of bits in the minimal representation of the first living cell is sufficient to explain the diversity of all life-forms found on Earth today.)
9. The more bits an entity requires to specify it, the more complex it is, and hence the more antecedently unlikely its existence is.
10. Therefore God’s existence is antecedently even more unlikely than the existence of life on Earth – the difficulties of abiogenesis notwithstanding.
11. An explanation which is antecedently even more unliklely than what it tries to explain is a bad explanation.
12. Hence invoking God (an omniscient Being) to explain life is a bad explanation.

A brief comment about the wisdom of choosing names

Before I go on, let me just say that the choice of names was a very clever one on Dave Mullenix’s part. Traditionally, Scholastic philosophers have maintained that God’s mind can store a vast number of concepts, in virtual form. How does God know what a dog is, what an E. coli bacterium is, and what an atom of gold is? The Scholastic reply has been that each of these entities must possess a kind of unity, or it wouldn’t be an individual. Therefore God, who knows all things in the most perfect manner possible, must have a unified concept of each of these kinds of entities. What’s more, God doesn’t even need to have separate and distinct concepts of each of these creatures. He only needs to have a concept of Himself as the possible cause of all these creatures, since He is able to create them all. Hence, simply by knowing Himself as a perfectly simple Being, God’s mind implicitly or virtually contains the concepts of all the various kinds of creatures which He is able to create.

Now, even if you buy that solution to the question of how God can have concepts of natural kinds, it certainly won’t work for names. Names don’t belong to any natural kind; they’re a human convention. And even if you were to maintain that God implicitly knows all names by knowing all possible combinations of letters or sounds, that wouldn’t explain how God knows your name – or how God knew Samuel’s name when He called him three times: “Samuel, Samuel.”

Argument A

OK. Let’s go back to argument A. What’s wrong with it? The problem, I believe, lies in premise 1: “Any entity that knows someone’s name has a representation of that name within his/her mind.”

At first blush premise 1 seems obvious: surely all knowledge has to be in the mind of the knower. However, I’d like to challenge this assumption. Why should this be so? A clue to why this seems so obvious is contained in Dave Mullenix’s words, “that information needs to be ‘on line.'” If we picture God as having a conversation with us in real time, then of course He will need to be able to access relevant information about us – including our names – from one moment to the next. In other words, He will need to keep it in His mind. And since a name, being inherently composite, cannot be compressed to a single bit, there can be no room for it in the simple mind of God.

But God is not in real time. God is beyond space and time. This is true regardless of whether one conceives of God as atemporal (totally outside time) as classical theists do, or as being omnitemporal (present at all points in time) subsequent to the creation of the universe, as Professor William Lane Craig does. On either analysis, God is not confined to a single location in time. In that case, God does not have to store information about our names in His mind for future retrieval; it’s always immediately there for Him.

“All right,” you may answer, “but if God is talking to me, and He calls me by my name, then the information about my name must still be in His mind, mustn’t it?” Not so. I would maintain that all God needs is to have access to your name; it doesn’t need to be “in” His mind. I would suggest that God knows facts about the world (including individuals’ names) simply by having access to the states of affairs which make them true (their truthmakers, in philosophical jargon). These facts don’t need to be “in God’s mind”; He just needs to be able to access them. The fact that grounds my having the name I do is that my parents gave it to me, shortly after I was born. God, who holds all things in being, was certainly present at this event: if He had not been present, my parents and I would not have been there, for “in Him we live and move and have our being” (Acts 17:28). If God has immediate epistemic access to the occasion when I acquired my name, then He automatically knows my name. It doesn’t need to be in His mind.

God, who holds all things, past, present and future, in existence, has immediate epistemic access to all events in the past, present and future. That’s how He is able to know my name.

Argument B

Now let’s have a look at argument B. Here, the critical premise is premise 2: “Any entity that knows a language has a representation of all the rules of that language within his/her mind.” Now, this is plausibly true for a computer that can speak a language. However, it is not true for human speakers, and it is certainly not true for God.

Consider the English language. It certainly contains a vast number of rules. However, most speakers of English don’t know these rules. Many people don’t know what a preposition is, for instance. And even if a well-educated child were aware of all the phonologic rules, morphologic rules and syntactic rules of a language, he/she could not possibly articulate all of the semantic rules and pragmatic rules. Yet virtually all children manage to learn their native tongue and speak it with ease.

It may be objected that we have an implicit knowledge of the rules of a language, even if most of us seldon need to make this knowledge explicit. Moreover, it could be argued, nothing is hidden or “implicit” to God. If He knows things in the most perfect manner possible, then He must have an explicit knowledge of each and every rule of a language.

But this objection assumes that the most perfect way to know a language is to know the rules, and then to apply those rules when making sentences. That’s roughly how I speak Japanese, for instance – but then, Japanese is not my native language. To know a language properly is to be in possession of a certain set of habits, which are properly acquired from being around the native speakers of that language for a certain length of time (usually a few years). Sentences produced as a result of this natural exposure have an authenticity that can never come from reading a grammar book.

“All right,” I hear you say, “but what about God? How does God pick up the habits of a language?” The answer, once again, is that God has epistemic access to all events – past, present and future. He was present at those points in history when each human language was in the process of being created; and He is present wherever mothers pass their native language on to their children. By having access to all these events, God can legitimately be said to possess all of the habits that an authentic native speaker of any human language possesses. Indeed, God has had more linguistic exposure than any one of us could possibly hope to experience. God has seen it all. That’s why God has no difficulty in producing perfect sentences in English, Hebrew or any other human language.

Notice that these habits do not have to be “in” the mind of God. They are “out there” in the course of history, as human languages are being created, and as they evolve over time. God, who has immediate epistemic access to all events in the past, present and future, has a perfect knowledge of these habits, without them being “in” His mind.

I will conclude by saying that in order to mount a successful argument against God, an atheist would have to show that the notion of a Being who has immediate epistemic access to all events in the past, present and future is an incoherent one. This has not been done to date, and there are even atheist philosophers who contend that the notion of such a Being is defensible. David Misialowski, a self-described “agnostic atheist,” is a case in point. His articles on God’s foreknowledge (see here, here and here) are highly entertaining and well worth reading, whatever your theological perspective.

I would like to congratulate Dave Mullenix for putting forward two highly ingenious arguments against the existence of God. They are much better and more interesting than the arguments recently put forward by the New Atheists.

Comments
Because I guess Pie in the Sky when I Die would be quite nice, as would a benevolent God who answered petitionary prayers and intervened to stop terrible things happening in the world! But if wishes were horses, beggars would ride. As I said, I'm pretty happy with "systems materialism" (my latest coinage, as opposed to "reductive materialism") because it handles our higher selves and aspirations quite nicely, and doesn't boggle belief! Off for a couple of days - see you guys later:) Cheers LizzieElizabeth Liddle
July 5, 2011
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EL: Why would you prefer #2 to be true? Since you identified your current belief as engendering a condition of "quite happy" on your part, it seems to me that you stated that in particular because "how happy your belief makes you" is important. Do you "guess" that you'd rather #2 be true because, if it was true, you'd probably be even happier than your current state of "quite happy"?William J. Murray
July 5, 2011
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Ah, thanks for clarifying the question! I guess the second. But I'm quite happy with the first. Now I've got used to it :)Elizabeth Liddle
July 5, 2011
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EL: Sorry for posting under another name, but for whatever reason I can't post under "Meleagar" from work. If we can agree that all such arguments circle back to their premises, and that all of us can justify to our own satisfaction the reasonableness and validity of our views, then what we are left with is a simple question, which I posed but you did not answer. Let me ask it more directly: Given equal result in your immediate, ongoing sense of satisfaction and reasonableness, which would you rather be true: 1 - materialism/atheism 2 - An omnipotent, loving, benevolent god exists and we have an eternity of satisfying and enjoyable spiritual existence before us.William J. Murray
July 5, 2011
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Meleager:
This is why many atheistic materialists become pragmatic deconstructionists; “what works” is more important than “what is true”; in fact, “what works” becomes the definition of “truth”. Which is why what practical, applied science produces becomes the arbiter of “what is real” and consensus theories of science define “what is probably true”. This is also why philosophy, to materialist atheists, is demoted to a position below applied science.
Yes, science is fundamentally utilitarian. We evaluate models on whether they work, rather than on whether they are true. However, all is not as grey as it seems, because what "works" in science is what is "predictive", and the better our models predict, the closer we can regard our model as a model of reality (aka truth). And when it comes to normative models, the same is true, I would argue: selfishness "works" in a narrow way. But if we want a normative model that is universally applicable it must deprioritise the self. And so we arrive, logically, at the Golden Rule. Utilitarianism may sound all grey cotton boiler suits and cloth caps, but it has a heart of Gold :)Elizabeth Liddle
July 5, 2011
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Meleager: Interesting post. Yes, I agree that in some senses, at least in the absence of evidence, one believes what one wants to believe. Which is why I think that the most important criterion for a belief system/worldview, whatever, is its utility. Elsewhere on this blog, though, people talk about evidence for God. I've never bought that - it seems to me that God isn't the kind of thing there could be evidence for. As models, theological models, I suggest, are normative, rather than predictive. And I would also agree to some extent with what you say here:
It seems clear to me that when many modern “atheists” and “materialists” argue, their position is really nothing more than an “anything but the god I learned about in Sunday School” mentality. EL says: “But no more Problem of Evil, no more nonsensical Atonement, no more arbitrary irregularities in the universe, no more wars over whose God has the right rules, no more Saved and Damned. No more fear of death.” Those are only issues for particular versions of God. It seems that like many atheists (myself a former one), your “atheism” and “materialism” was founded upon a particular view of god that you found to be unbelievable – as was mine.
Except that it wasn't the case with me :) I had an excellent theological rearing, and, having refused to swallow the substitutionary theory of atonement, solved the problem by adopting Abelard's. What "made me an atheist" as it were, wasn't an unpalateable God, but the realisation (as I see it) that minds really can be accounted for in material terms. Previously, I'd maintained a lurking dualism, which also made it reasonable to supposed that if a mind had some reality beyond a brain, it could also have some reality (writ large) beyond a universe. But with that penny dropped, as it were, I no longer had good reason to posit a transcendent God (an immanent one, perhaps). However, what I found was almost everything I'd previously had, with the possible exception of Life After Death, which I'd always been a but dubious about anyway, and find no great loss. Yes, the mind is good at defending itself from positions it does not wish to take - but again, I'd say, this was not the case with me. All I want is something reasonable, that makes sense. What I have now, is reasonable, and makes sense. If someone can talk me into a more reasonable position - sure, I'd be delighted. But arguments I don't find convincing are those that try to persuade me that the inescapable conclusions from an atheistic/materialistic premise are amorality, reductionism, and the denial that consciousness or free will exist. I don't accept that those conclusions follow from the premise.Elizabeth Liddle
July 5, 2011
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One might say, "I want to believe in what is true", but then the question becomes, why? Why do you want to believe what is true? It matters if there is a god and a spiritual existence where truth matters in and of itself; but what does truth matter to a materialist/atheist? This is why many atheistic materialists become pragmatic deconstructionists; "what works" is more important than "what is true"; in fact, "what works" becomes the definition of "truth". Which is why what practical, applied science produces becomes the arbiter of "what is real" and consensus theories of science define "what is probably true". This is also why philosophy, to materialist atheists, is demoted to a position below applied science. So the choice of what to believe, when it comes to theism/spirituality vs atheism/materialism, cannot be based on "truth", because "truth" can be defined subjectively by relativists and deconstructionists. The question they have to ask themselves is what they would prefer to believe; if believing in god "worked" for them in the sense that it made their lives better, would they prefer that to atheism/materialism? If the answer is yes, then they are actually neo-theists in search of a god they can believe in; whether that god is true or not is largely irrelevant to them, because - as EL has said - they dispense with the god idea not because they find it to be untrue, but rather because they find it (from the god-options they have available) to be toxic. Which is why so many react so virulently against ID; they see it as attempting to spread a toxin they believe is poisonous, because they equate it with the childish, toxic concept of god they are familiar with.Meleagar
July 5, 2011
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It seems clear to me that when many modern "atheists" and "materialists" argue, their position is really nothing more than an "anything but the god I learned about in Sunday School" mentality. EL says: "But no more Problem of Evil, no more nonsensical Atonement, no more arbitrary irregularities in the universe, no more wars over whose God has the right rules, no more Saved and Damned. No more fear of death." Those are only issues for particular versions of God. It seems that like many atheists (myself a former one), your "atheism" and "materialism" was founded upon a particular view of god that you found to be unbelievable - as was mine. When I found more sophisticated philosophical arguments for god (thanks to the ID community), and against atheism and materialism, I realized that my choice of beliefs was predicated upon improperly framed and incomplete options. It was like facing a choice between meals of hamburger helper vs a can of Pork 'n' Beans, never realizing there were fuller, more properly prepared meals out there to sample. As you have said, one can assume monism or one can assume dualism; it's our choice. No amount of argument or evidence can coerce one to believe one way or another; the mind is fully capable of defending virtually any position and permeating us with a sense of satisfaction that our position is logical, evidenced, and fully warranted. I think the real crux of the issue is: what do you want to believe, and why do you want to believe it? When I became an atheist, I wanted to believe in a world without any god that would allow innocent children to be harmed. That was really the crux of my position; no god that allowed such things IMO was worth having as a god, and since such things actually happen, then there was no god worth having. I thought it was a pretty good argument. Materialism granted me release from any necessary higher commitment and responsibility; it indemnified me against any sense of failure since there wasn't anything significant to live up to, and since I was really only the product of blind material forces. Materialism granted me a kind of deconstructionist perspective where I didn't have to make sense of the world; I really only had to care about, as you say, "what worked". Atheistic materialism offered me a safe place by which I could defend against that which hurt my heart and mind to consider when I was a theist (problem of evil, religious wars, Heaven and Hell, condemnation, atonement - as you said). Under my then-new materialist/atheist view, ultimately, nothing really mattered, and whatever I did was just what occurred, and it wasn't judged by some transcendent set of values that were significant in any meaningful way. I and my actions were "good enough", and not judged lacking by some transcendent arbiter I found to be unworthy of dispensing such judgement. Yes, I've been there, and was there for almost 10 years. Atheism and materialism offered a deconstructionist perspective by which I was self-authorized to simply dismiss anything that put me in a situation of heartfelt or mental angst, frustration, despair, or pain. IOW, it offered "happiness" and "it worked" to produce what I wanted - a functional life free of the pain of higher moral and spiritual obligation and purpose under a god obviously (to me) either callous or evil. I made all the same arguments you're making. They were not only all fully satisfying to me, they all seemed perfectly obvious and clear. Now, of course, I see them as ignorant (not willfullly so, since I was unaware of better arguments for god) and my argument methodology to be nothing much more than deconstructionist defenses against something that, at the very root, was just something I didn't want to believe at the time. Once I came into contact with arguments for god that had nothing to do with heaven and hell, condemnation, atonement, etc., and characterized god in simple, necessary, first principle terms (as the ID argument does, and which introduced me to other such arguments), I realized I never had a problem with the existence of god per se; what I had a problem with was how god was characterized and explained to me when I was growing up. What I also realized was: I actually wanted to believe in god, but up until then there there was no god (that I was aware of) worth believing in. So to me, in the end, all the logic and evidence and arguments in the world don't make a whit of difference when one wants to believe there is or is not a god, because the mind is so good at defending any position we wish to take. Which is why free will intentions are so important. The question, really, is what do you want to believe? That there is no god, or that there is a god worth believing in, worth worshiping, and worth being thankful to? I'd rather have the latter, it was just that I didn't see how it was possible, so I chose the former for a decade. Fortunately, thanks to the good people of the ID community, I found the latter (truth be told, I never stopped looking for a god worth believing in, even though I would deny it, which is what drew me to the ID argument and sites like this in the first place, and is why I think so many materialist/atheists are drawn to sites that make these arguments), and now enjoy living in belief of a god that is truly worth having because I chose to accept that which I would actually prefer, that which my heart and soul actually cried out for, instead of stubbornly clinging to a position I had invested in as intellectually superior and heroically unpopular (as a means of escaping the fact that it was just the more convenient and less painful option available). To borrow from Dawkins: Intelligent Design has made it possible for me to be an intellectually fulfilled theist. When it is all said and done, it's just a choice one makes. To me, when it's framed that way - atheism/materialism vs a god & spiritual existence worth believing in - it's an easy choice to make.Meleagar
July 5, 2011
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Bantay:
Elizabeth Liddle…
You said “the question “why is there anything rather than nothing” would require that something intended there to be anything rather than nothing. And intention seems to me to require material processes.”
This was basically the only reason you listed for holding the strong atheist position. But it appears to be a purely volitional, even an emotional reason. It seems to me that what you are saying is that you simply don’t like it God could have a mind but not a brain. This is simply begging the question in favor of materialism. If your best argument against God is fallacious, then I think you have an opportunity to reassess your position, which under the circumstances, appears to enjoy less deductive and abductive support than the theist position.
Yes, it's based on the premise that minds arise from brains. And yes, that is "question-begging" but because I see no reason to think that minds don't arise from brains (we certainly don't normally attribute minds to things without brains, and we know that thoughts and neural activity are tightly correlated) then a proposition that requires me to postulate a brainless mind is not one I would readily embrace. If posed as the solution to the question I raised above, it seems only to raise more problems than it solves. Perhaps there is some First Cause that we can posit to answer my question, but it seems to me that we have no reason to attribute a mind to it, based on what we know of minds.
As an aside, I think it is at least an interesting fact that we know that words are inextricably linked to the actualization of abstract concepts and ideas. It should come as no surprise then, that in the creation narrative in the Bible, God literally spoke the universe into being. Gen 1:3 “And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.”
It's a lovely passage. Even better is the first few verses of John's gospel.Elizabeth Liddle
July 5, 2011
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Nullasalus (sorry, catching up in bits...):
Why don’t you stop for a moment and ask yourself, “If I alternately describe myself as a theist, a pantheist, an atheist, lacking faith altogether, or having no beliefs but instead orientations, am I really attempting to describe something? Or is it that my thoughts on this matter are a jumbled mess, and possibly dictated more by what sounds good to me at any given time than a coherent underlying rationale?’
I do, and my answer is "no".
Yes, I know that you think you’ve found something that ‘does everything God used to do’, aka, ‘gives you the warm fuzzies and makes you happy’.
No. Please don't attribute views to me I don't hold.
The fact that you’re putting so much pressure on finding a belief (oops, it’s an orientation now) that ‘does something for you’ should throw up some warning signs to you.
Not really. If something works, it works. If it doesn't it doesn't. The warning signs come when something doesn't work. Theism (traditional theism) comes with a whole host of problems that simply disappear if you drop the assumption that there's a Big Guy In Charge. And, I'm delighted to find, you are still left with all the solutions to important problems you had in the first place (like how to behave, for instance). But no more Problem of Evil, no more nonsensical Atonement, no more arbitrary irregularities in the universe, no more wars over whose God has the right rules, no more Saved and Damned. No more fear of death.
But then again, maybe warning signs don’t give you the warm fuzzies.
Oh, but they do. When my spidey senses tell me something doesn't make sense, I may not enjoy the sensation, but I'm certainly glad to get the message :) OK, so we are still a long way apart. But perhaps at least we now have a better gauge of the distance :)Elizabeth Liddle
July 5, 2011
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junkdnaforlife,
Driver: “There are, for example, cyclic as well as eternal models of the origin of the universe.” These are attempts to get back to the steady state model of cosmology.
Not at all. They incorporate the Big Bang model, at least in the essentials. For example, the ekpyrotic universe.
This is done to avoid the first cause argument.
Cosmologists come up with models to try to explain the data, not to circumvent philosophers. Besides, writing an involved scientific paper would be overkill for taking on the first cause argument. The refutation of the first cause argument is simply the plain English statement that if something can be uncaused then that uncaused thing could be natural.Driver
July 5, 2011
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Nullasalus:
Well, I can understand why you might interpret my words that way, as I understand that you do not accept that objective morality is possible under atheism. I disagree.
Who said it wasn’t possible under atheism? We’re talking materialism here. And your morality doesn’t become objective just because you feel really strongly about it, or on the grounds that “love emerges”. As I’ve pointed out, if you’re going to throw language around that way, then hate emerges too. Power emerges. Death emerges.
Well, on another thread a number of people (perhaps you weren't one of them) made the claim that objective morality wasn't possible under atheism. And I think it's relevant. I'm not saying that "love emerges" because I "feel really strongly about it". I think it emerges as a direct logical consequence of figuring out what benefits everybody - the Golden Rule makes logical sense. Of course you could decide that "what benefits everybody" isn't a Good. But it's as good a definition of Good as I can find. I certainly don't think theism has an objective alternative, and even Jesus told us to use our common sense rather than blindly follow a set of religious rules.
You talk about “figuring out the common good” – but what makes it good, and what makes it that we should figure it out? For a materialist, the answer is at best “because we want to, at the time”. Nor do I deny people can, individually or as a group, figure out ways to get what they want. Calling that objective morality is yet another “looking-glassing”.
Well, you seem to have a box into which you place unpackings of concepts that you don't like! I think concepts like "Good" are worth unpacking. I don't think it's "looking-glassing" I think it's opening a black box and figuring out what is actually inside. Tell me how you would define "Good".
Not sure what the antecedent “it” is here.
The word games. The looking-glassing. Certainly the pantheism, or at least cop to the fact that power, hate, death and more emerge from the world as well.
Yes, they do, but I don't worship them. Incidentally, they also emerge from religion.
But I’m not “adding zeros”. Nor am I “summing” anything – that’s my point.
And my point is that saying “emergence!” doesn’t get you to where you want to go in and of itself, nor does saying “the whole is greater than the sum of its parts” over and over. The sort of wholes you can get to is determined by the whole and the parts. Try to add up the 0s to get a 2 or a 4 and you’re out of luck. Try to add up the 1s, and now maybe you can get somewhere.
Well, I understand that you don't think "emergence" gets me where I want to go to, but you need to do more than assert it. I think it's a pretty important concept. Systems-level analysis is, by definition, not "reductionist", and it tells us things that a reductionist approach can't tell us. I assume you wouldn't disagree with this?
Materialism need not be “reductionist”. The idea that it is must be is, I contend, false, and completely ignores the fact that organisations of material have very different properties from the material from which they are organised.
Yes, if you tape a bunch of square-shaped blocks into a spherical formation, you get a composite that rolls even though square blocks don’t roll. Call that an emergent property if you want. Are you really going to say that’s irreducible? That it’s not a case of weak emergence?
Yes, it's irreducible. If you omit the level of the organisation, you miss the property of the whole. It's a fairly trivial example, of course, but it's a fair example.
Consider this from Strawson: ” I’LL SAY IT AGAIN. FOR Y TRULY TO EMERGE FROM X IS FOR Y TO ARISE FROM OR OUT OF X OR BE GIVEN IN OR WITH Y GIVEN HOW X is. Y must arise out of or be given in X in some essentially non-arbitrary and indeed wholly non-arbitrary way. X has to have something — indeed everything — to do with it. That’s what emerging is (that’s how liquidity arises out of non-liquid phenomena). It is essentially an in-virtue-of relation. It cannot be brute. Otherwise it will be intelligible to suppose that existence can emerge from (come out of, develop out of) non-existence, or even that concrete phenomena can emerge from wholly abstract phenomena. Brutality rules out nothing. 34 If emergence can be brute, then it is fully intelligible to suppose that non-physical soul-stuff can arise out of physical stuff — in which case we can’t rule out the possibility of Cartesian egos even if we are physicalists.”
That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I guess I'd need to read the whole context.
And, as I said, that’s a pejorative version of saying something that in my view is valid: that if a question is intractable, the reason is sometimes that it is ill-posed.
And sometimes the question isn’t ill-posed. Sometimes intractable questions are, as a matter of fact, intractable given the assumptions in question – and what it’s time to do is get rid of the assumptions.
Yes, that too. I think both are true in this case. I think one key false assumption, when considering consciousness, is that it's a continuous stream. If we let go that assumption, I think we find ourselves with a better question ("How do we become conscious of things?") and one which can be answered much more readily.
If we’d done that with Zeno, we’d never have got calculus. Er, Zeno’s paradox remains.
Er, it has a solution.
On the other hand, dumping our assumptions about the world was essential in the transition from cartesian to quantum physics. Trying to find a way to reinterpret the findings in a way that fit with classical physics hardly helped.
Exactly.
We have good reason to ditch materialism. Or, like Strawson, radically revise it.
Oh, I'm all for revision. In fact, as I keep saying, I don't think reductionist materialism works. And in fact, no-one actually uses it in practice. Everyone works at a systems level. And no-one tries to say that molecules don't exist because it's all just hadrons and leptons. Equally, I think it's silly to say that mind doesn't exist, it's all just neurotransmitters and electrical depolarisations. But that doesn't mean that materialism is false, just that reductionist materialism is inadequate. That's why I prefer to call myself a monist than a materialist. It's duality I reject, not the numinous.Elizabeth Liddle
July 5, 2011
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Ilion, I do not need to prove that the premise is false. If you cannot prove it true then you cannot use it to demonstrate the truth of any argument. We do not know if the premise is true or false. It may be false. If one of your premises may be false then your conclusion may be false. You are saying 'It cannot be shown false that X entails Y, therefore X entails Y' If you want to use the premise in an argument, you have the task of showing 'X entails Y' to be true.
Computers do *not* perform logical operations
Then, when a computer appears to perform the operation of adding two very large numbers, who does the calculation? The user? Let us use your terminology and say that given inputs a computer performs symbol manipulation to output an answer. Thoughts can also be characterized as symbol manipulation of inputs to produce output.
boy!
It is certainly possible that we have different ideas of what is grown-up behaviour.Driver
July 5, 2011
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vjtorley:
Elizabeth (#99) I only have time for a quick post right now. You write:
The God I found myself with, after half a century of a more conventional belief, has the delightful and unexpected property of not actually requiring faith! While still having all the good bits. Well, not the music. I do miss the music. And I’m still open to being wrong.
You seem to be acknowledging that music enables us to have genuinely transcendent experiences. And I would agree with you. You still seem to retain a number of transcendent concepts in your philosophical system, such as truth, goodness and beauty. My question to you would be: can the meaning of these transcendent concepts be adequately described or characterized in materialistic terms?
Yes, is my answer. It's pretty well my key point! Thank for eliciting it so unambiguously! Of course, I now have to support my answer, and I'm happy to attempt to do that, but yes, that is my position.Elizabeth Liddle
July 5, 2011
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junkdnaforlife, The narrator later says that a growing number of people are trying to change the treatment of women in that country. But what if they cannot? What if a growing number want to keep the laws the same? You can go even further. What if the community sees the problem with the victim, or denies there was a victim? What if they see the problem not with rapists being aggressive, but with their targets being unwilling? They can argue it's a job for education. Frame it as 'the problem with frigidity in Japan'. Sure, we'd call it warped, we'd call it wrong. But then again, the advocates could just consider us to be yet more people in need of education. Standing in the way of the common good they've decided on. And if the common good at the end of the day is our feelings, or our preferences about models of society...nullasalus
July 5, 2011
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Liz: "I think it’s perfectly possible for human beings to figure out what promotes the common good and what doesn’t)" Yes, the common good. Rape culture in Japan: What did a lawyer that represents rape victims in Japan say, about the slap on the wrists the rapist in that country receive: "Our law says, protecting a persons property is more important than protecting a women's sexual freedom." Key words: Our Laws http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTxZXKsJdGU&NR=1 The narrator later says that a growing number of people are trying to change the treatment of women in that country. But what if they cannot? What if a growing number want to keep the laws the same? Where does the jurisdiction end on what you feel is good for the community, and the line begin for what another community feels is good? At the countries borders? The city borders? Neighborhood borders? Property lines? The soldiers in congo engage in government sanctioned rape that they feel makes them more patriotic. Do we interject, are we part of the Congo community?junkdnaforlife
July 5, 2011
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Well, I can understand why you might interpret my words that way, as I understand that you do not accept that objective morality is possible under atheism. I disagree. Who said it wasn't possible under atheism? We're talking materialism here. And your morality doesn't become objective just because you feel really strongly about it, or on the grounds that "love emerges". As I've pointed out, if you're going to throw language around that way, then hate emerges too. Power emerges. Death emerges. You talk about "figuring out the common good" - but what makes it good, and what makes it that we should figure it out? For a materialist, the answer is at best "because we want to, at the time". Nor do I deny people can, individually or as a group, figure out ways to get what they want. Calling that objective morality is yet another "looking-glassing". Not sure what the antecedent “it” is here. The word games. The looking-glassing. Certainly the pantheism, or at least cop to the fact that power, hate, death and more emerge from the world as well. But I’m not “adding zeros”. Nor am I “summing” anything – that’s my point. And my point is that saying "emergence!" doesn't get you to where you want to go in and of itself, nor does saying "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts" over and over. The sort of wholes you can get to is determined by the whole and the parts. Try to add up the 0s to get a 2 or a 4 and you're out of luck. Try to add up the 1s, and now maybe you can get somewhere. Materialism need not be “reductionist”. The idea that it is must be is, I contend, false, and completely ignores the fact that organisations of material have very different properties from the material from which they are organised. Yes, if you tape a bunch of square-shaped blocks into a spherical formation, you get a composite that rolls even though square blocks don't roll. Call that an emergent property if you want. Are you really going to say that's irreducible? That it's not a case of weak emergence? Consider this from Strawson: " I’LL SAY IT AGAIN. FOR Y TRULY TO EMERGE FROM X IS FOR Y TO ARISE FROM OR OUT OF X OR BE GIVEN IN OR WITH Y GIVEN HOW X is. Y must arise out of or be given in X in some essentially non-arbitrary and indeed wholly non-arbitrary way. X has to have something — indeed everything — to do with it. That’s what emerging is (that’s how liquidity arises out of non-liquid phenomena). It is essentially an in-virtue-of relation. It cannot be brute. Otherwise it will be intelligible to suppose that existence can emerge from (come out of, develop out of) non-existence, or even that concrete phenomena can emerge from wholly abstract phenomena. Brutality rules out nothing. 34 If emergence can be brute, then it is fully intelligible to suppose that non-physical soul-stuff can arise out of physical stuff — in which case we can’t rule out the possibility of Cartesian egos even if we are physicalists." And, as I said, that’s a pejorative version of saying something that in my view is valid: that if a question is intractable, the reason is sometimes that it is ill-posed. And sometimes the question isn't ill-posed. Sometimes intractable questions are, as a matter of fact, intractable given the assumptions in question - and what it's time to do is get rid of the assumptions. If we’d done that with Zeno, we’d never have got calculus. Er, Zeno's paradox remains. On the other hand, dumping our assumptions about the world was essential in the transition from cartesian to quantum physics. Trying to find a way to reinterpret the findings in a way that fit with classical physics hardly helped. We have good reason to ditch materialism. Or, like Strawson, radically revise it.nullasalus
July 5, 2011
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Elizabeth (#99) I only have time for a quick post right now. You write:
The God I found myself with, after half a century of a more conventional belief, has the delightful and unexpected property of not actually requiring faith! While still having all the good bits. Well, not the music. I do miss the music. And I’m still open to being wrong.
You seem to be acknowledging that music enables us to have genuinely transcendent experiences. And I would agree with you. You still seem to retain a number of transcendent concepts in your philosophical system, such as truth, goodness and beauty. My question to you would be: can the meaning of these transcendent concepts be adequately described or characterized in materialistic terms?vjtorley
July 5, 2011
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Ilion (#118) Thanks for a very well thought-out post. You are perfectly correct when you write:
I want it to be clearly understood that 'bits' are symbols, and that they do not, of themselves, mean or signify anything at all. 'Bits' are physical entities which are, themselves, utterly meaningless.
Having said that, I don't think that Dave Mullenix's argument presupposes any commitment to eliminative materialism. All he is assuming is that if an entity knows that P, then it must have a representation of P, in its mind. And if P is a complex state of affairs, then any adequate representation of P will also be complex. If we wish to preserve the valid metaphysical insight from classical theism that God's essence is simple (otherwise God could not be absolutely necessary), then I think it is wiser to deny the implicit assumption that God needs a representation of P in order to know that P. This assumption stems from a centuries-old philosophical view, which says that all knowledge must be "in" the mind of the knower. But perhaps we need to question this view. If the knower has immediate epistemic access to P, then there is no need for an internal representation of P. Consequently God does not need to store our names in His mind.vjtorley
July 5, 2011
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Nullasalus:
What I revere is what I am calling Love – the capacity to transcend the self-centred point of view and to see and feel the world from the point of view of others – to deprioritise the view from the self. The neuromodulators you mention are merely part of the almost unimaginably complex system that gives us the capacity to do this. At our best.
“At our best” according to your whim. And someone saying that power, or competition, or aggression, or otherwise should be revered, they have every bit as much standing. Really, probably moreso, since to see the world from the point of view of others is not to love. It may actually cause quite some hate.
Well, I can understand why you might interpret my words that way, as I understand that you do not accept that objective morality is possible under atheism. I disagree. And because I disagree (I think it's perfectly possible for human beings to figure out what promotes the common good and what doesn't), then from my point of view, my point stands. I think the Golden Rule is fairly easy to deduce from first principles, I don't adopt it on a whim".
As I said, time to let it go.
Not sure what the antecedent "it" is here.
You may not have read my other posts (fair enough!) but a point I have been trying to make, consistently, is that things can be more than the sum of their parts, and have properties that are not shared with those parts (can even be travelling in a different direction!).
And yet, sometimes they can’t. Add as many 0s together as you wish, and you’re not going to get a 1 or a 2 out of them.
But I'm not "adding zeros". Nor am I "summing" anything - that's my point. Merely adding together (listing, if you will) the neurotransmitters, the neuromodulators, the neurons, the dendrites, the axons, not to mention the ions, the atoms, the electrons, the protons, the hadrons, the leptons, of the human brain is not going to give you a human brain. It cannot be reduced to the sum of its parts. That does not mean that without its parts it would still exist. That's my point. Materialism need not be "reductionist". The idea that it is must be is, I contend, false, and completely ignores the fact that organisations of material have very different properties from the material from which they are organised.
A comment about the whole being greater than the sum of its parts is not, in this context, A) Uncontroversial, or B) Going to get you where you want to go. Even Dennett realized as much – that’s why he had to looking-glass his definitions, as Strawson says. Because the actual definitions wouldn’t work out for him.
And, as I said, that's a pejorative version of saying something that in my view is valid: that if a question is intractable, the reason is sometimes that it is ill-posed. Refusing to accept that a question may be ill-posed, and dismissing re-posings as "looking-glassing" isn't very sensible IMO. If we'd done that with Zeno, we'd never have got calculus.
Elizabeth Liddle
July 5, 2011
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What I revere is what I am calling Love – the capacity to transcend the self-centred point of view and to see and feel the world from the point of view of others – to deprioritise the view from the self. The neuromodulators you mention are merely part of the almost unimaginably complex system that gives us the capacity to do this. At our best. "At our best" according to your whim. And someone saying that power, or competition, or aggression, or otherwise should be revered, they have every bit as much standing. Really, probably moreso, since to see the world from the point of view of others is not to love. It may actually cause quite some hate. As I said, time to let it go. You may not have read my other posts (fair enough!) but a point I have been trying to make, consistently, is that things can be more than the sum of their parts, and have properties that are not shared with those parts (can even be travelling in a different direction!). And yet, sometimes they can't. Add as many 0s together as you wish, and you're not going to get a 1 or a 2 out of them. A comment about the whole being greater than the sum of its parts is not, in this context, A) Uncontroversial, or B) Going to get you where you want to go. Even Dennett realized as much - that's why he had to looking-glass his definitions, as Strawson says. Because the actual definitions wouldn't work out for him.nullasalus
July 5, 2011
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Deuce:
Elizabeth:
Another way of putting it is recasting the problem so that it is actually solvable and gives a sensible answer. What Dennett does isn’t to “recast” the problem so that it can be solved. It’s to dismiss it and substitute a different problem that he can solve in its place. And the god we should try to be, even if we fail, is the God that is Love. That’s the only God worthy of worship. Love is real enough, so is goodness. Why can’t we worship that?
That’s quite an odd amount of reverence you have for increased levels of serotonin and dopamine in the brain.
You may not have read my other posts (fair enough!) but a point I have been trying to make, consistently, is that things can be more than the sum of their parts, and have properties that are not shared with those parts (can even be travelling in a different direction!). I don't have any reverence for "increased levels of serotonin and dopamine and dopamine in the brain". What I revere is what I am calling Love - the capacity to transcend the self-centred point of view and to see and feel the world from the point of view of others - to deprioritise the view from the self. The neuromodulators you mention are merely part of the almost unimaginably complex system that gives us the capacity to do this. At our best.Elizabeth Liddle
July 5, 2011
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Driver: "There are, for example, cyclic as well as eternal models of the origin of the universe." These are attempts to get back to the steady state model of cosmology. Back to before a beginning, where many, like Hawking, were much more comfortable. This is done to avoid the first cause argument. To get to the God, gods arguments, you need to eliminate the materialist premise. If you are holding out on that one, then we are stuck here for now.junkdnaforlife
July 4, 2011
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Ilion (#10) and Deuce (#113) Very interesting posts. Ilion, you write:
Further, the knowledge possessed by even a limited a human mind is not known — nor “stored” — in the form of bits/parts, but rather holistically.
I'm not sure the two options are mutually exclusive. Redundant storage might be a good way of safeguarding the brain against memory decay. Deuce, I was intrigued by your comment:
Nevertheless,I’d also like to ditto what Ilion has said in his first couple of replies here regarding the supposed requirement for a complex God. Bits are what we use to measure the storage requirements of information when encoding it into a physical medium for later retrieval and interpretation by a mind. It’s not at all clear to me that content currently being conceived in a conscious mind consists of bits. This, as Ilion says, appears to assume eliminative materialism right off the bat.
Hmm. You could be right. It still strikes me, however, that a name, being inherently complex, could not possibly reside "in" the simple mind of God. That's why I locate the information outside God, but somewhere that He can immediately access it. But I could be wrong.vjtorley
July 4, 2011
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Ilion (#14) Thank you for your post. You wrote:
Still, you’d think that Aristotelian-Thomists, of all persons in the world, would be able to immediately grasp the fact that there is no such thing as “the future,” and thus, no such things as “events in the future.”
Careful. Aristotle would say that. I doubt that Aquinas would. We also have to bear in mind the words of Christ to Peter: "Before the cock crows thrice, you will have denied me three times." Thomas' own views on God's foreknowledge are controversial. Some (e.g. Garrigou-Lagrange) consider him to have been a predestinationist, a la Banez; Jesuit Thomists read him differently. If he was, then he would have said that God knows the future by determining it. That's not my view; I'm more of a Boethian. I think God can see the future from His perspective; we, being time-bound, cannot.vjtorley
July 4, 2011
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... see? there at the end? in searching for non-question-begging interpretation of Mr Mullinex's premise, I confused myself? I falsely equated 'bit' and 'symbol'. A 'bit' is a 'symbol,' but a 'symbol' is not necessarily a 'bit.'Ilion
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Deuce:Nevertheless,I’d also like to ditto what Ilion has said in his first couple of replies here regarding the supposed requirement for a complex God. Bits are what we use to measure the storage requirements of information when encoding it into a physical medium for later retrieval and interpretation by a mind. It’s not at all clear to me that content currently being conceived in a conscious mind consists of bits. This, as Ilion says, appears to assume eliminative materialism right off the bat.” Deuce, thanks. While I am confident that you adequately understand the matter, I know from experience that many people do not. And so, I’d like to restate part of what you’ve said with somewhat greater precision and a bit more in-depth explanation. And then, from the point of that increased precision (and understanding), remove that (to me) troubling bit of tentativeness (that is, the “appears”) from your last sentence. The term ‘bit’ refers to various entities, differing by context. For example, when referring to a hard-drive, ‘bit’ signifies either (and both, depending on usage) the magnetic polarization of a given linear length (which varies by distance from the center of the platter) across the HD surface, or to the linear length itself; when referring to a CD of DVD, ‘bit’ signifies a ‘pit’ burned into the ink-film or aluminum platter which is the recording surface; in the internals of the computer, ‘bit’ may signify an electrical charge; and so on. Now, all these (and more) significations of ‘bit’ may be treated as identical – though, clearly they are not – precisely because ‘bits’ are symbols. ‘Bits’ are (generally) physical states, utterly meaningless in themselves, which human minds have arbitrarily and conventionally chosen to represent some “unit of information,” as the phrase goes. To put is bluntly, a ‘bit’ doesn’t mean a damned thing: it is not information; rather, it may – or may not – represent information, generally ‘yes/true/present’ or ‘no/false/absent.’ So, when you say, “Bits are what we use to measure the storage requirements of information when encoding it into a physical medium for later retrieval and interpretation by a mind,” what you’ve said is true, though it does apply in some contexts and not in others. But, I suspect that it might also be misleading to some. I think a more precise way to put this idea would be something like: “The term ’bits’ signifies both a(n immaterial) measure of storage requirements and/or the (material) physical storage-space itself when we use a physical medium to *represent* some information or other, for later retrieval and interpretation by a mind.” The major conceptual change I have made is to replace the word “encode” with “represent,” because I want it to be clearly understood that ‘bits’ are symbols, and that they do not, of themselves, mean or signify anything at all. ‘Bits’ are physical entities which are, themselves, utterly meaningless. Then, once we firmly grasp the truth that ‘bits’ physical entities which are, themselves, utterly meaningless, we can examine the premises of Mr Mullinex’s argument in light of this understanding – “I would ignore brains and say instead that any mind needs billions of bits of carefully organized information to exist because a mind is, essentially, huge amounts of information interacting with each other. That’s what thoughts are – information acting on other information.” Let’s skip over the silly and false and absurd assertion that “a mind is, essentially, huge amounts of information interacting with each other ” so as to concentrate on: 1) “… any mind needs billions of bits of carefully organized information to exist … By ‘bits,’ does Mr Mullinex mean an immaterial measure of the storage requirements needed to represent some information or other via a physical medium? That is, does he mean a count of symbols? No, that substitution cannot even begin to make sense -- “any mind needs billions of [immaterial measures of the storage requirements necessary to accomplish a representation] of carefully organized information to exist” So, by ‘bits,’ Mr Mullinex must mean symbols; not a count of symbols, but symbols themselves. He appears to mean “material/physical entities which are, themselves, utterly meaningless and which minds may arbitrarily and conventionally use to *represent* some information or other”. Thus -- “[in order to exist,] any mind needs billions of [material/physical entities which are, themselves, utterly meaningless and which minds may arbitrarily and conventionally use to *represent* some information or other, in order to accomplish a representation] of carefully organized information [].” If that is what he means, then is it not obvious that: a) he has said that in order for a mind to exist, it needs (apparently, to ‘contain’) billions of utterly meaningless physical/material symbols which may conventionally represent information; b) he appears, as per a), to be equating ‘minds’ with ‘brains’; c) and thus, he does, indeed, “assume eliminative materialism right off the bat”; d) he has said that in order for any individual mind to exist, some other mind or minds must exist – shades of a vicious infinite regress; Ah! But there is one more way to try to make sense of Mr Mullinex’s premise. Recall, I said, way back when, that “‘Bits’ are (generally) physical states …” That is, a ‘bit’ might be a non-physical/non-material entity; for instance, certain concepts may be symbols, which, while meaningless in themselves, nevertheless stand for other entities or concepts. One example would be the concept of the letter ‘a’; the conception itself is not a proposition or an idea, it is not itself information, it does not mean anything, but it does refer to and stand for something else; namely, any of various physical entities with certain characteristic shapes. So, using this third possible meaning of ‘bit,’ what do we have? “[in order to exist,] any mind needs billions of [non-material/non-physical entities which are, themselves, utterly meaningless and which minds may arbitrarily and conventionally use to *represent* some information or other, in order to accomplish a representation] of carefully organized information [].” Well! If this is what he meant, then it seems to let him off the hook with respect to my accusation that he is assuming eliminative materialism. But, at what price? a) he has said that in order for a mind to exist, it needs (apparently, to ‘contain’) billions of utterly meaningless non-physical/non-material symbols which may conventionally represent information; b) in escaping the (hidden) assumption of eliminative materialism, he has not only allowed for, but has said that minds are immaterial entities; c) he has said that in order for any individual mind to exist, some other mind or minds must exist – and we still have that vicious infinite regress; c.1) but now the infinite regress can be ended by a slight modification to the premise -- “[in order to exist,] any [embodied] mind needs billions of [non-material/non-physical entities which are, themselves, utterly meaningless and which ultimately an un-embodied mind (or minds) has/have arbitrarily and conventionally used to *represent* some information or other, in order to accomplish a representation] of carefully organized information [].” The premise is still pointless, and I still reject it as false – for ‘bits’ do not explain minds. And I am sure Mr Mullinex will reject it. 2) “That’s what thoughts are – information acting on other information. ‘Information’ doesn’t act upon anything, including other information. Rather, information is acted upon … my minds.Ilion
July 4, 2011
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Driver:
The error is thinking that since a “change of state some matter” (actually electrical activity) determines that any entity thinks a thought therefore it cannot also be the case that the logical relationship between two thoughts prompts a thought. Not only is this assumption not necessarily true, by analogy we can see that it is probably false. For, it is very like saying that because a computer is material it cannot perform logic operations.
So a computer is like a brain? Do you agree that computers think thoughts because the voltage across a resistor can change? Do computers actually think logically, iow, do they reason from true premises to a true conclusions? Do you know how computers perform "logic"? http://www3.wittenberg.edu/bshelburne/Comp150/LogicGatesCircuits.htmlMung
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Driver @109: "The implicit premise here is that material sources are not capable of reason. The error is thinking that since a “change of state some matter” (actually electrical activity) determines that any entity thinks a thought therefore it cannot also be the case that the logical relationship between two thoughts prompts a thought. Not only is this assumption not necessarily true..." But (even aside from the fact that you don’t quite have the hang of it), even as you have expressed it here, it *is* true. If you want to establish that it is false, after all, and that the truth of the matter is that “material ‘sources’ [whatever that is supposed to mean] are capable of reason,” then you must do one of two things: 1) provide a concrete example; 2) provide a well-grounded theoretical rationale for the assertion. Just stamping your foot and insisting something like “it might be true that thoughts are material entities (*) (because I really need them to be)” simply will not cut it. (*) As I’ve pointed out above, Mr Mullinex’s argument depends upon asserting that thoughts are material entities. "... by analogy we can see that it is probably false. For, it is very like saying that because a computer is material it cannot perform logic operations." Silly, misinformed boy! Computers do *not* perform logical operations; they perform symbol manipulation. Symbols are utterly meaningless entities, either material or immaterial, which are arbitrarily chosen by minds to ‘stand for’ (i.e. ‘symbolize’) other entities, which ‘stood-for’ entities may themselves be symbols. And, unless one knows the “code” -- unless one already knows or has some method to discover meanings/concepts which the symbols arbitrarily stand for -- then the symbols are (as one example) just ink-scratchings on paper. We computer folk speak of computers as though they perform logical operations, because doing so vastly simplifies talking about them and their operations. It is just a metaphor, not the truth of the matter.Ilion
July 4, 2011
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Elizabeth Liddle... You said "the question “why is there anything rather than nothing” would require that something intended there to be anything rather than nothing. And intention seems to me to require material processes." This was basically the only reason you listed for holding the strong atheist position. But it appears to be a purely volitional, even an emotional reason. It seems to me that what you are saying is that you simply don't like it God could have a mind but not a brain. This is simply begging the question in favor of materialism. If your best argument against God is fallacious, then I think you have an opportunity to reassess your position, which under the circumstances, appears to enjoy less deductive and abductive support than the theist position. As an aside, I think it is at least an interesting fact that we know that words are inextricably linked to the actualization of abstract concepts and ideas. It should come as no surprise then, that in the creation narrative in the Bible, God literally spoke the universe into being. Gen 1:3 "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light."Bantay
July 4, 2011
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