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UB Schools Bob O’H

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As is his wont, national treasure Upright Biped took materialist Bob O’H to school:

Bob @ 63,

we can replicate the process without having to resort to adding anything immaterial”

Is that right Bob?

Okay, let us make you the Director of a research team with unlimited personnel, unlimited time, and unlimited funding. And let us say that with this extraordinary intellectual and research power, it is not long before you can control, manipulate, and bind together whatever molecules you wish, and not only can you do that, but you can also successfully predict the results of that manipulation. So, if you need a replacement for the extant ribosome, you got it. If you need a de novo tRNA, you got it. If you need an aaRS to fulfill the box on a diagram of chemical pathways, you got it. Now comes the time to “replicate the process”, so you set your team out to organize a dissipative system where your de novo DNA/RNA is manipulated by your de novo ribosome and whatever array of other helper molecules you need, to the extent that the sequence of your de novo DNA/RNA is used to successfully establish the functional re-construction of the system.

Let me ask you Bob: Will you have to coordinate the descriptions of each the de novo aaRS, with the descriptions of the other molecules in the system? That is to say – will the individual sequences within the portion of your de novo DNA/RNA that describe your de novo aaRS’s have to be simultaneously coordinated so that the remainder of the descriptions result in a successful replication? And would you also say, and agree, that without that simultaneous coordination, your system will not result in a successful replication?

If this is so, Bob, can you then stand before your intricate diagram of the system’s pathways and properties (with the great formulas of physical law at hand, and with your team’s documented intimate knowledge of every facet and dynamic interaction within the system) and point out where exactly you find the source of that coordination?

Comments
Pater Kimbridge @22: What’s the scientific explanation to the existence of the genetic code? Do you know the answer to that question? Please, avoid any explanation that sounds like CM. Thanks. Here’s one: https://iubmb.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/iub.146pw
February 7, 2020
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@Pw "The Nazis designed the Enigma code ...." Gee.... Wood floats, and witches float.... so.... witches must be made of wood!!!!Pater Kimbridge
February 7, 2020
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. Bob?Upright BiPed
February 7, 2020
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The heart is a kind of pump. It pushes blood around the body. That is its function. It would only have that as a purpose if there was a designer capable of conceiving such a purpose.
That doesn't follow. But it is a given that it did require an intelligent designer.
The Black Death that killed a third of the population of Europe at that time, that was done on purpose?
Possibly. But how does that relate to function? Are you suggesting the function was that of a population thinner?
The extreme vulcanism topped off with a giant meteorite strike which finished off the dinosaurs 65 mya, that was done on purpose?
Possibly. But how does that relate to function? Or are you saying the function was to prepare the earth for us?ET
February 7, 2020
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Pater Kimbridge @18 The genetic code is a code, that represents very specific functional information, therefore it must have been designed. We know that empirically. It’s an undisputed fact. The Nazis designed the Enigma code which was used to convert certain text to messages carrying important information. A group of Polish and British specialists figured it out. Scientists have figured out the genetic code. BTW, do you know the answers to the questions @17?pw
February 7, 2020
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@Pw #17 "The genetic code has at least one known function: to be used by the cell in order to synthesize proteins. " That's an observation. "That’s the purpose it was designed for." That's a non-sequiter leap. At least you have separated function and purpose into the distinct concepts that I am recommending. If you don't do this, you run the risk of doing what Seversky warns against - the smuggling of purpose in where there is only function.Pater Kimbridge
February 7, 2020
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What’s a known function of the genetic code? What’s a known function of the epigenome? What’s a known function of the ribosome? What’s a known function of every known aaRS? What’s a known function of every cellular organelle? What’s a known function of the nuclear membrane?pw
February 7, 2020
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Intrinsic: “belonging to the essential nature or constitution of a thing” https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/intrinsic Purpose: “something set up as an object or end to be attained” https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/purposepw
February 7, 2020
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John_a_designer @ 13
But what purpose is a function without a purpose? Can Pater give us an example of a functioning organ which has no purpose?
Pick an organ, any organ. The heart is a kind of pump. It pushes blood around the body. That is its function. It would only have that as a purpose if there was a designer capable of conceiving such a purpose. The notion of 'purpose' entails a 'purposer'. Which, of course, is why ID/Creationists prefer it because it smuggles in their Designer/God. Which in turn raises the question, if there can be no function without purpose, is there any function anywhere in the universe that is not purposed? The Black Death that killed a third of the population of Europe at that time, that was done on purpose? The extreme vulcanism topped off with a giant meteorite strike which finished off the dinosaurs 65 mya, that was done on purpose? Or try a different approach, a river and a canal both have the same function, in simple terms, they channel water from one place to another. The canal was designed and built by human engineers for a specific purpose. The river is water moving from higher to lower levels, under the force of gravity, following a course that is shaped by the topography of the land over which it flows. You're telling us that there is no difference, that if something does something, no matter what, that is its purpose as well as its function?Seversky
February 7, 2020
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Pater K:
The “purpose” is not, and only exists in someones mind.
In everyone's mind, because it is intrinsic.ET
February 7, 2020
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Pater @ 8,
I think it is important, to avoid confusion, to realize that function and purpose are two different things.
But what purpose is a function without a purpose? Can Pater give us an example of a functioning organ which has no purpose? Sure there are so-called vestigial organs but those organs even if they have lost there their original function had an original purpose. I don’t see what the point is here. It seems to me to be totally irrational.john_a_designer
February 7, 2020
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@ET #10 The composition and structure are intrinsic. The "purpose" is not, and only exists in someones mind.Pater Kimbridge
February 7, 2020
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@Truthfreedom #9 The things you list are what I would call function, not purpose. When you see a heart pumping blood, you are observing a function. If you saw a heart for the first time, not pumping blood, you would not be observing a function. It has no function, at the moment when it is not doing anything. If I have a shovel in my garage, and it is just leaning up against the wall, at that moment it has no function. If I pick it up and move dirt with it, at that moment it has the function of moving dirt. When it is not being used, it has form and substance, but no function. The designer of the shovel may have had a purpose in mind when he designed it, and I may have had a function in mind when I bought it, and those ideas may have influenced it's form and substance, but those ideas do not exist in the shovel. To believe otherwise is a mind-projection fallacy.Pater Kimbridge
February 7, 2020
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The purpose of a car is for transportation. The composition and structure of the material make it so. It seems like an intrinsic property. Using a car for something other than transportation would be an extrinsic propertyET
February 7, 2020
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@6 PaterKimbridge
Do you believe that purpose is an intrinsic property of a thing or entity?
See Barry Arrington @7 please. I do not "believe" it. It is what we observe in Nature. "Purpose" in the sense of "tendency" --> "going towards". 1. Hearts --> pumping blood. 2. Adaptation --> survival. 3. Studying --> gaining knowledge. 4. Amoral behavior --> problems/ suffering. There is an order in Nature. We are creatures discovering and understanding it. Some correlations can not happen. For example: hearts --> digesting food. Minds can discern those relations and we call them their "purpose".Truthfreedom
February 7, 2020
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But is the purpose a property of the physical thing, or does purpose only exist in the mind of the designer or the user of the thing? I think it is important, to avoid confusion, to realize that function and purpose are two different things. Purpose is what a designer or user has in mind when designing or using something. It is not an intrinsic property of a thing. Function is what a thing is doing at a given moment. It is also not an intrinsic property.Pater Kimbridge
February 7, 2020
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Pater Kimbridge, Physical things often have a purpose, in the sense of a telos, an end or function toward which they go. The heart is for pumping blood. Another way to say that is that the purpose of the heart is to pump blood. This is so obviously true as to be trivial. I wonder that you should ask about it.Barry Arrington
February 7, 2020
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@Truthfreedom #5 Do you believe that purpose is an intrinsic property of a thing or entity? In other words, is purpose something that it carries around with it?Pater Kimbridge
February 7, 2020
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@ PeterA
... what is the purpose of...
"Purpose" is a word that materialists say has no meaning (pun intended). In their world, "stuff happens". We can not adulterate the fact with fantasies of "purposefulness" or "directedness". That is silly and not realistic. Strictly speaking, "molecules collide". Billions of collisions. End of the story. Their philosophy, not mine :)Truthfreedom
February 7, 2020
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Don’t expect much from Bob. Because of his a priori philosophical assumptions he is never going to concede that DNA or RNA functions as a code. However, the problem then for him, or any other committed materialist, is what is the purpose of DNA or RNA? For me the question is very easy to settle. I just apply the so-called duck test. If DNA or RNA looks like a code, functions like a code or can be used as a code (by humans for instance) it is a code. But that’s because I am being intellectually honest. That’s also one of the reasons I believe that materialism is false. Bob, of course, will continue to believe what he believes because he believes it.john_a_designer
February 7, 2020
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Bob O’H, Perhaps now it’s easier for you to answer this question: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/suzan-mazur-on-how-the-college-board-skews-students-toward-darwinism/#comment-692155 than the hard problem UB has presented to you? :)PeterA
February 7, 2020
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Game over.PeterA
February 7, 2020
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Ouch!!!PeterA
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