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UB Sets It Out Step-By-Step

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UD Editors:  No one has come close to refuting UB’s thesis after 129 comments.  We are moving this post to the top of the page to give the materialists another chance.

I take the following from an excellent comment UB made in a prior post.  UB lays out his argument step by step, precept by precept.  Then he arrives at a conclusion.  In order for his argument to be valid, the conclusion must follow from the premises.  In order for his argument to be sound, each of the premises must be true.

Now here is the challenge to our Darwinist friends.  If you disagree with UB’s conclusion, please demonstrate how his argument is either invalid (as a matter of logic the conclusion does not follow from the premises) or unsound (one or more of the premises are false).  Good luck (you’re going to need it).

Without further ado, here is UB’s argument:

1.  A representation is an arrangement of matter which evokes an effect within a system (e.g. written text, spoken words, pheromones, animal gestures, codes, sensory input, intracellular messengers, nucleotide sequences, etc, etc).

2.  It is not logically possible to transfer information (the form of a thing; a measured aspect, quality, or preference) in a material universe without using a representation instantiated in matter.

3.  If that is true, and it surely must be, then several other things must logically follow. If there is now an arrangement of matter which contains a representation of form as a consequence of its own material arrangement, then that arrangement must be necessarily arbitrary to the thing it represents. In other words, if one thing is to represent another thing within a system, then it must be separate from the thing it represents. And if it is separate from it, then it cannot be anything but materially arbitrary to it (i.e. they cannot be the same thing).

4.  If that is true, then the presence of that representation must present a material component to the system (which is reducible to physical law), while its arrangement presents an arbitrary component to the system (which is not reducible to physical law).

5.  If that is true, and again it surely must be, then there has to be something else which establishes the otherwise non-existent relationship between the representation and the effect it evokes within the system. In fact, this is the material basis of Francis Crick’s famous ‘adapter hypothesis’ in DNA, which lead to a revolution in the biological sciences. In a material universe, that something else must be a second arrangement of matter; coordinated to the first arrangement as well as to the effect it evokes.

6.  It then also follows that this second arrangement must produce its unambiguous function, not from the mere presence of the representation, but from its arrangement.  It is the arbitrary component of the representation which produces the function.

7.  And if those observations are true, then in order to actually transfer recorded information, two discrete arrangements of matter are inherently required by the process; and both of these objects must necessarily have a quality that extends beyond their mere material make-up. The first is a representation and the second is a protocol (a systematic, operational rule instantiated in matter) and together they function as a formal system. They are the irreducible complex core which is fundamentally required in order to transfer recorded information.

8.  During protein synthesis, a selected portion of DNA is first transcribed into mRNA, then matured and transported to the site of translation within the ribosome. This transcription process facilitates the input of information (the arbitrary component of the DNA sequence) into the system. The input of this arbitrary component functions to constrain the output, producing the polypeptides which demonstrate unambiguous function.

9.  From a causal standpoint, the arbitrary component of DNA is transcribed to mRNA, and those mRNA are then used to order tRNA molecules within the ribosome. Each stage of this transcription process is determined by the physical forces of pair bonding. Yet, which amino acid appears at the peptide binding site is not determined by pair bonding; it is determined  by the aaRS. In other words, which amino acid appears at the binding site is only evoked by the physical structure of the nucleic triplet, but is not determined by it. Instead, it is determined (in spatial and temporal isolation) by the physical structure of the aaRS. This is the point of translation; the point where the arbitrary component of the representation is allowed to evoke a response in a physically determined system – while preserving the arbitrary nature of the representation.

10.  This physical event, translation by a material protocol, as well as the transcription of a material representation, is ubiquitous in the transfer of recorded information.

CONCLUSION:  These two physical objects (the representation and protocol) along with the required preservation of the arbitrary component of the representation, and the production of unambiguous function from that arbitrary component, confirm that the transfer of recorded information in the genome is just like any other form of recorded information. It’s an arbitrary relationship instantiated in matter.

Comments
Toronto:
UBP/Mung, we at least now know that “arbitrary” is not what onlooker has attempted to define.
Congratulations. We've known it now for hundreds of posts. And all those assertions by onlooker that she's defined or attempted to define arbitrary are false. A sham. A subterfuge. An excuse for not engaging in real debate.
So, what is the definition of “arbitrary” as UBP uses it?
Read the freaking thread.Mung
November 13, 2012
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Bill, you were implying a total refutation of my argument as far back as 2011, so I am suprprised that the simple question "Have you done so?" has caught you so unprepared. Take all the time you need.Upright BiPed
November 13, 2012
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UB:
You failed to answer a single question regarding your position. Since you are defending your position as much as attacking mine, shall we assume from your lack of response that you do not wish your position to be subject to evaluation?
LOL! I first posed those questions to you in July during the course of our discussion at TSZ, but you abandoned the thread rather than respond. I repeatedly re-posted those questions many, many times. You acknowledged seeing them in September, but made an excuse about attending to Onlooker and still did not respond. Now you post a a few questions, and a few hours later and you leap to that conclusion? I'm busy with professional responsibilities. I'll respond later, maybe tomorrow, perhaps this weekend.Reciprocating Bill
November 13, 2012
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Alan,
It is not productive to rebut incoherence.
This is yet another simple assertion which you refuse to support. Why do you refuse to support your assertions? Doesn't some sense of intellectual embarrassment not drive you to support the claims you make? If you can articulate an ambiguity in the terms of the argument at the top of this page, then I will address it. What is this ambiguity you keep claiming exist?Upright BiPed
November 13, 2012
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Bill, You asked a set of questions of me, which I answered each directly. I then posed a set of questions for you. You failed to answer a single question regarding your position. Since you are defending your position as much as attacking mine, shall we assume from your lack of response that you do not wish your position to be subject to evaluation?
I take this response as your assent that semiotic theory, as you have articulated it, itself does not constrain answers to my questions above, but is instead silent on the causation/origins of the entailments/TRI/a semiotic state.
On the contrary, understanding the fundamental material conditions required for the transfer of recorded information provides a valuable (and indeed necessary) understanding if we are to realistically evaluate any mechanism proposed as the originator of those material conditions. As indicated in the answers I gave you to your previous questions, the material conditions of TRI are only associated with massive pre-existing organization, and have never been observed without it. This universal observation cannot help but play a role in the evaluation of any mechanism proposed as the origin of such a system requiring those material conditions. If it does not play a role, then certainly the proposition must negate that observation with suitable evidence to the contrary. Now, as to the questions you did not answer in the previous posting: Which one of the observations at the top of this page have you shown (or can show) to be false? Have you shown, or can you show an example of invalid logic in the conclusions stemming from the observations at the top of this page? Do you believe that the working scientists and researchers who are proponents of biosemiosis (even those who profess complete methodological materialism in their discipline) are incorrect in their assessment that the translation of recorded information from the genome demonstrates a semiotic state? If so, how are they mistaken, and what would you say to them to correct their error(s)?Upright BiPed
November 13, 2012
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Alan Fox:
Now protein synthesis is a process, a dynamic series of events.
Therefore, protein synthesis is teleological. Funny how a committed Darwinist will appeal to teleology when desperate enough.
Surely, just on that basis, any aspect of protein synthesis can’t be described as a state, semiotic or not.
Oh really:
Specifically within switching circuit concepts, engineering students seem to enjoy creating state transition diagrams, mainly because they are easy to construct! Also, from state transition diagrams, state transition Tables can be created, and vice versa. By using biology as the data for switching circuits, engineering students can grasp the concepts of biology quicker because they use a tool that they enjoy. For example, given the well-known Table of the genetic code mapping of codons to amino acids, an engineering student may apply his or her knowledge of switching circuits to it. Perhaps an engineering student would create a state diagram for this mapping. In another application, an engineering student may create a state diagram for proteins, where a beginning state is methionine and the three final states would be stop codons. Or perhaps an engineering student will identify that the redundant sixty-four to twenty mapping of codons to amino acids becomes data for a switching circuit with “don’t care” inputs. By looking at biological processes as switching circuits, the engineering student gains knowledge of biology and the full relevance of engineering principles to other disciplines.
The Switching Circuits of BiologyMung
November 13, 2012
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onlooker, the proven liar and troll, continues to troll:
D3. Arbitrary: Not connected by any direct physical mechanism. Is that how you use the word in your argument?
No.
If not, what essential characteristics does that definition lack?
That's not a definition.
Put up or shut up.
Now there's a convincing argument. TrollMung
November 13, 2012
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Reciprocating Bill:
Just to be clear, I take this response as your assent that semiotic theory, as you have articulated it, itself does not constrain answers to my questions above, but is instead silent on the causation/origins of the entailments/TRI/a semiotic state.
And to be absolutely clear there isn't any evidence that unguided evolution can produce semiotic processes, including transcription and translation. There isn't even any way to test the claim that unguided evolution could produce such a process. OTOH there is plenty of evidence for intelligent agencies producing semiotic processes...Joe
November 13, 2012
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Alan Fox:
I am not aware of any convincing argument derived solely from logic rather than observation, experiment, measurement of reality that has been useful to the scientific community.
And that proves that the theory of evolution is not useful as it is not based on observation, experiment and measurement of reality. And Alan, it is because nucleotides REPRESENT amino acids that makes transcription and translation a semiotic process.
As I said, and others have said, clumping protein synthesis into a set of processes you call semiotic makes no sense.
Perhaps not to you, but then again nothing you say makes any sense.Joe
November 13, 2012
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Just noticed: Reciprocating Bill is asking Upright Biped about "semiotic states". Now protein synthesis is a process, a dynamic series of events. Surely, just on that basis, any aspect of protein synthesis can't be described as a state, semiotic or not. So how does UB decide on what is in his semiotic set? Are they states, processes, events, things?Alan Fox
November 13, 2012
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My statements on the issue are made solely from a material perspective.
Of course they should be, from my perspective they cannot be otherwise. Reality and imagination are orthogonal! I am not aware of any convincing argument derived solely from logic rather than observation, experiment, measurement of reality that has been useful to the scientific community.
Do you care to articulate any ambiguity in the terms of the argument, or shall you remain (perhaps forever) content to defend your position through unsupported beliefs?
As I said, and others have said, clumping protein synthesis into a set of processes you call semiotic makes no sense. It is not productive to rebut incoherence. This is why people have asked for clarification. This is why it is hard for you to keep people's attention. I am not defending anything. I am quite happy to admit, and have never implied otherwise, that I have no expertise except a little in biochemistry and I am quite content leave you to develop your argument into something that will get people's attention. You ain't there yet.Alan Fox
November 13, 2012
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RB:
Specifically, tell us how semiotic theory itself constrains the answers to these questions [about the mechanisms/causes that result in the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state]. If, for example, you assert that agency is required to cause, result in, or give rise to the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state, tell us why that flows from semiotic theory as you articulate it.
UB:
It doesn’t flow from semiotic theory per se, it flows from universal observation of the physical world.
Thank you for you candor. Just to be clear, I take this response as your assent that semiotic theory, as you have articulated it, itself does not constrain answers to my questions above, but is instead silent on the causation/origins of the entailments/TRI/a semiotic state.Reciprocating Bill
November 13, 2012
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Upright BiPed,
950 + comments, and not even a shred of a refutation.
950+ comments and not even a shred of an attempt to make your word salad coherent. D3. Arbitrary: Not connected by any direct physical mechanism. Is that how you use the word in your argument? If not, what essential characteristics does that definition lack? Put up or shut up.onlooker
November 13, 2012
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Alan Fox,
Indeed, I think that protein synthesis as a process has nothing to do with semiotics
Yes, but as you have repeatedly demonstrated, you make assertions which you then refuse to support with evidence and reason. This is a defensive mechanism which only serves to isolate your position from any inconvenient aspects of reality.
Pattee’s remark that “life is matter controlled by symbols” is merely anthropomorphism.
And here is another unsupported assertion. Not only is it unsupported, it is also uneducated. Pattee, as a Professor Emeritus of Physics, has studied the material constraints brought on by the presence of information in material systems for almost half a century. He was speaking specifically from a material perspective. You should attempt to educate yourself on these matters in place of making ill-concieved statements. Perhaps you could start here: The physics of symbols…Howard Pattee
I am not really making a claim about reality...
That is understandable (given your position) but then why do you involve yourself in conversations about reality, particularly when you’ve shown that you are uninterested in what that reality is?
Upright Biped makes an ill-defined assertion that semiosis, the study of signs and symbols in communication is a set of processes that can encompass biochemical reactions.
My statements on the issue are made solely from a material perspective. Positioning them as “ill-defined” is yet another assertion without support. Do you care to articulate any ambiguity in the terms of the argument, or shall you remain (perhaps forever) content to defend your position through unsupported beliefs?Upright BiPed
November 13, 2012
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Alan Fox, Reality says that transcription and translation is a semiotic process BY DEFINITION. Ya see Alan the nucleotides code for, ie represent, an amino acid. Nucleotides do not become the amino acid. And blind and undirected processes just cannot produce a semiotic state. So you lose, again, as usual. As for how it impacts the theory of evolution, well it is just another aspect, of many, that the theory cannot explain. IOW it is just something else that proves the theory of evolution is a useless and worthless heuristic.Joe
November 13, 2012
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Upright Biped Indeed, I think that protein synthesis as a process has nothing to do with semiotics. Pattee's remark that "life is matter controlled by symbols" is merely anthropomorphism. I am not really making a claim about reality, I am making a semantic observation. Upright Biped makes an ill-defined assertion that semiosis, the study of signs and symbols in communication is a set of processes that can encompass biochemical reactions. This stretches the concept of semiosis beyond any scientific usefulness. As mung points out, this does render UB's argument not very interesting to me, simply because it is, even if you allow for the sake of argument that in the context of his own definitions it might be right, scientifically useless. It is not a matter of refuting claims, it is a matter of observing that the attempt to put protein synthesis under an umbrella called "semiosis"is not even wrong. Further, allowing for the sake of argument that protein synthesis, or an aspect of it, could be called semiotic, then so what? We still have the hill to climb about whether calling something semiotic means it must have been designed. And then so what? How does being able to call something semiotic impinge on the theory of evolution, or indeed on the theory of ID if there were one?Alan Fox
November 13, 2012
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Reciprocating Bill and his ilk are just upset because their position has nothing- no supporting evidence because they don't even have any objective criteria from which to make an inference.Joe
November 13, 2012
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Has Keith presented an example of a self-replicating molecule where we can analyze its components and their functions?
He posted some symbols on a web page that he claims represent a self-replicating molecule, but they held no recorded information, so I would say no.Mung
November 12, 2012
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Reciprocating Bill,
Please tell us what class of mechanisms you, or semiotic theory, assert is required to create (result in, cause) the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state.
Our universal experience is that semiotic states rise only (or are in operation only) from massive organization (i.e. living agents). There is no evidence to the contrary. I would start there.
Also, please tell us what class of mechanisms you, or semiotic theory, claim cannot create the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state.
Again, I refer to observation; inanimate matter acted upon by physical law from any identifiable initial condition provides no examples of producing semiotic states. I would also add to this any process that requires recorded information in order to function, such as Darwinian evolution as it is documented to function in living things.
Specifically, tell us how semiotic theory itself constrains the answers to these questions. If, for example, you assert that agency is required to cause, result in, or give rise to the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state, tell us why that flows from semiotic theory as you articulate it.
It doesn’t flow from semiotic theory per se, it flows from universal observation of the physical world.
Lastly, if your theory has nothing to say on causation – if the entire output of your efforts is “it will therefore require a mechanism capable of establishing a semiotic state” yet semiotic theory is silent on mechanism/causation of the entailments/TRI/a semiotic state – what good is it?
Knowing what has to be accomplished in order to transfer recorded information is an advancement in knowledge if your subject of interest is dependent on the transfer of recorded information. - - - - - - - - And now I have some questions for you. Which one of the observations at the top of this page have you shown (or can show) to be false? Have you shown, or can you show an example of invalid logic in the conclusions stemming from the observations at the top of this page? Do you believe that the working scientists and researchers who are proponents of biosemiosis (even those who profess complete methodological materialism in their discipline) are incorrect in their assessment that the translation of recorded information from the genome demonstrates a semiotic state? If so, how are they mistaken, and what would you say to them to correct their error(s)?Upright BiPed
November 12, 2012
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UB, now that I have your attention, I'll ask yet again the following, the abandoned next step in our previous conversation: Please tell us what class of mechanisms you, or semiotic theory, assert is required to create (result in, cause) the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state. Also, please tell us what class of mechanisms you, or semiotic theory, claim cannot create the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state. Specifically, tell us how semiotic theory itself constrains the answers to these questions. If, for example, you assert that agency is required to cause, result in, or give rise to the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state, tell us why that flows from semiotic theory as you articulate it. Lastly, if your theory has nothing to say on causation – if the entire output of your efforts is “it will therefore require a mechanism capable of establishing a semiotic state” yet semiotic theory is silent on mechanism/causation of the entailments/TRI/a semiotic state – what good is it?Reciprocating Bill
November 12, 2012
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950 + comments, and not even a shred of a refutation.Upright BiPed
November 12, 2012
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“life and semiosis are coextensive” >>Professor Emeritus Thomas Sebeok, Indiana University “the basic unit of life is the sign, not the molecule” >> Professor Emeritus Jesper Hoffmeyer, Institute of Biology, University of Copenhagen “life is matter controlled by symbols” >> Professor Emeritus of Physics, Howard Pattee, New York State University “semiosis not only is a fact of life but is ‘the’ fact that allowed life to emerge from inanimate matter” >> Marcello Barbieri, Department of Morphology and Embryology, University of Ferrarra “I think the attempt to link semiosis to protein synthesis just fails utterly” >> Alan Fox :|Upright BiPed
November 12, 2012
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Apparently cybernetics, semiotics, and biosemiotics didn’t exist prior to the formulation of Upright BiPed’s argument.
I told them the same thing. It doesn’t matter.Upright BiPed
November 12, 2012
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Ahh, the clairvoyant Reciprocating Bill returns to UD with a 1400-word justification of himself. I will use significantly less words in response to it. Besides, his position has already been addressed too many times to count. He calls my use of the word entailment “muddled”. But what exactly was my use of the word entailment?
UB: There is a list of physical entailments of recorded information that can therefore be generalized and compiled without regard to the source of the information. In other words, the list is only about the physical entailments of the information, not its source. I am using the word “entailment” in the standard sense – to impose as a necessary result (Merriam-Webster). These physical entailments are a necessary result of the existence of recorded information transfer.
Yep. First, I used the word, and then I gave the dictionary definition of that word, and then I used the dictionary definition in place of the word itself. (lol) This is an excellent indication of the formidable front put up at TSZ. What Bill fails to recognize is a distinction between the argument and the evidence within empiricism. One always has supremacy over the other. Instead (following his training perhaps) he wants to argue endlessly over the argument - and he’s become exasperated. He started his counter-attack by stating upfront that his claim “did not turn" on the evidence – and he was wrong.Upright BiPed
November 12, 2012
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Has Keith presented an example of a self-replicating molecule where we can analyze its components and their functions?Upright BiPed
November 12, 2012
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Alan, In your previous comment to me, you made an assertion and then did nothing whatsoever (and in zero) to back it up. Now you’ve come back to do the exactly the same thing (as in precisely the same thing). This is what an unsupported assertions looks like:
First assertion: “…as this is where his argument really falls apart for me. I think the attempt to link semiosis to protein synthesis just fails utterly”. Supporting evidence: Zero - - - - - - - - Second assertion: “…attempting to shoehorn protein synthesis into a set of processes that you call “semiotic” simply fails”. Supporting evidence: Zero
The only reasonable conclusion is that you have nothing to support your assertions.Upright BiPed
November 12, 2012
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I think perhaps I've found the tool for creating self replication. http://selflanguage.org/Mung
November 12, 2012
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Apparently cybernetics, semiotics, and biosemiotics didn't exist prior to the formulation of Upright BiPed's argument.Mung
November 12, 2012
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Mung:
Can someone post an example, based upon observation, in which the transfer of recorded information was not semiotic?
Sure, it happens with those self-replicating molecules. :) Hey, don't blame me. An impossible hypothetical scenario deserves a hypothetical molecule!Eric Anderson
November 11, 2012
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Reciprocating Bill:
- Third is UB’s related claim that it is an empirical observation, and not simply a definition, that results in the claim that “the transfer of information is by necessity semiotic”:
Wow. I missed the rebuttal. Is that what I get for blinking at such a crucial moment? [Diary: Blinking is evidence of poor design.] Can someone post an example, based upon observation, in which the transfer of recorded information was not semiotic?Mung
November 11, 2012
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