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UB Sets It Out Step-By-Step

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UD Editors:  No one has come close to refuting UB’s thesis after 129 comments.  We are moving this post to the top of the page to give the materialists another chance.

I take the following from an excellent comment UB made in a prior post.  UB lays out his argument step by step, precept by precept.  Then he arrives at a conclusion.  In order for his argument to be valid, the conclusion must follow from the premises.  In order for his argument to be sound, each of the premises must be true.

Now here is the challenge to our Darwinist friends.  If you disagree with UB’s conclusion, please demonstrate how his argument is either invalid (as a matter of logic the conclusion does not follow from the premises) or unsound (one or more of the premises are false).  Good luck (you’re going to need it).

Without further ado, here is UB’s argument:

1.  A representation is an arrangement of matter which evokes an effect within a system (e.g. written text, spoken words, pheromones, animal gestures, codes, sensory input, intracellular messengers, nucleotide sequences, etc, etc).

2.  It is not logically possible to transfer information (the form of a thing; a measured aspect, quality, or preference) in a material universe without using a representation instantiated in matter.

3.  If that is true, and it surely must be, then several other things must logically follow. If there is now an arrangement of matter which contains a representation of form as a consequence of its own material arrangement, then that arrangement must be necessarily arbitrary to the thing it represents. In other words, if one thing is to represent another thing within a system, then it must be separate from the thing it represents. And if it is separate from it, then it cannot be anything but materially arbitrary to it (i.e. they cannot be the same thing).

4.  If that is true, then the presence of that representation must present a material component to the system (which is reducible to physical law), while its arrangement presents an arbitrary component to the system (which is not reducible to physical law).

5.  If that is true, and again it surely must be, then there has to be something else which establishes the otherwise non-existent relationship between the representation and the effect it evokes within the system. In fact, this is the material basis of Francis Crick’s famous ‘adapter hypothesis’ in DNA, which lead to a revolution in the biological sciences. In a material universe, that something else must be a second arrangement of matter; coordinated to the first arrangement as well as to the effect it evokes.

6.  It then also follows that this second arrangement must produce its unambiguous function, not from the mere presence of the representation, but from its arrangement.  It is the arbitrary component of the representation which produces the function.

7.  And if those observations are true, then in order to actually transfer recorded information, two discrete arrangements of matter are inherently required by the process; and both of these objects must necessarily have a quality that extends beyond their mere material make-up. The first is a representation and the second is a protocol (a systematic, operational rule instantiated in matter) and together they function as a formal system. They are the irreducible complex core which is fundamentally required in order to transfer recorded information.

8.  During protein synthesis, a selected portion of DNA is first transcribed into mRNA, then matured and transported to the site of translation within the ribosome. This transcription process facilitates the input of information (the arbitrary component of the DNA sequence) into the system. The input of this arbitrary component functions to constrain the output, producing the polypeptides which demonstrate unambiguous function.

9.  From a causal standpoint, the arbitrary component of DNA is transcribed to mRNA, and those mRNA are then used to order tRNA molecules within the ribosome. Each stage of this transcription process is determined by the physical forces of pair bonding. Yet, which amino acid appears at the peptide binding site is not determined by pair bonding; it is determined  by the aaRS. In other words, which amino acid appears at the binding site is only evoked by the physical structure of the nucleic triplet, but is not determined by it. Instead, it is determined (in spatial and temporal isolation) by the physical structure of the aaRS. This is the point of translation; the point where the arbitrary component of the representation is allowed to evoke a response in a physically determined system – while preserving the arbitrary nature of the representation.

10.  This physical event, translation by a material protocol, as well as the transcription of a material representation, is ubiquitous in the transfer of recorded information.

CONCLUSION:  These two physical objects (the representation and protocol) along with the required preservation of the arbitrary component of the representation, and the production of unambiguous function from that arbitrary component, confirm that the transfer of recorded information in the genome is just like any other form of recorded information. It’s an arbitrary relationship instantiated in matter.

Comments
Onlooker at 887,
I am asking you to define your terms.
And I have defined them. But you keep asking me to redefine them in terms of the mechanism which might establish the relationship. In response, I have repeatedly told you that the quality of the relationship between the two objects in question exist as it does regardless of the mechanism which establishes that relationship. SPecifically, I stated:
The issue of the representation being materially arbitrary to its effect does not address any proposed mechanism which may establish that relationship within a system. It does not address (in one way or another) whether a potential mechanism is purely law-based, or contains stochastic or other non-deterministic elements, or otherwise – it simply acknowledges that the relationship between the representation and its effect is not a matter of inexorable law. You cannot derive one from the other (without the system).
Moreover, it is the mechanism that is in question, so to place an answer to that question within the observations themselves is tantamount to assuming your conclusion, and is therefore a completely avoidable logical fallacy. You have thus far refused to acknowledge these very simple observations.Upright BiPed
November 1, 2012
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Onlooker at 885,
I’ll spell it out for you. Your use of the term “materially arbitrary” is no different than if you invented the word “splangilous” and used that to denote whatever concept it is that you’re trying so unsuccessfully to communicate. If you want to use that word, fine. If you want to claim that some object or pattern is splangilous, fine.
You are entirely correct.
That doesn’t provide allow any outside observer to determine what you mean by it.
Unless they ask. And if they did, I would tell them that the relationship (in question) within the system is “spangilous”, and spangilous means that it is “context specific” and “not a matter of inexorable law”, at which point they would know that the relationship between a) the representation, and b) the effect it evokes within the system, is “context specific” and “not a matter of inexorable law”. That’s what happened 70 days and a mere 878 comments ago.Upright BiPed
November 1, 2012
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onlooker is such a misnomer.Mung
November 1, 2012
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Hey- look what I found!: arbitrary:
1: depending on individual discretion (as of a judge) and not fixed by law [the manner of punishment is arbitrary] 2 a: not restrained or limited in the exercise of power : ruling by absolute authority [an arbitrary government] b: marked by or resulting from the unrestrained and often tyrannical exercise of power [protection from arbitrary arrest and detention] 3 a: based on or determined by individual preference or convenience rather than by necessity or the intrinsic nature of something [an arbitrary standard] [take any arbitrary positive number] [arbitrary division of historical studies into watertight compartments — A. J. Toynbee] b: existing or coming about seemingly at random or by chance or as a capricious and unreasonable act of will [when a task is not seen in a meaningful context it is experienced as being arbitrary— Nehemiah Jordan]
Anyone with at least a first grade education should be able to take those definitions, plug them into the sentence, and figure out which definition to use. So either evos are totally ignorant or just dishonest jerks.Joe
November 1, 2012
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onlooker, The only people who say UB has NOT made an argument that supports ID are the ignorant evoTARDs over on TSZ and yourself, a proven liar and loser. Objective onlookers understand that...Joe
November 1, 2012
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Upright BiPed,
Why do you repeatedlty ask about the nature of the mechanism… given that you’ve been told a number of times that the observations do not address the nature of the mechanism.
I am asking you to define your terms. The fact that you refuse to do so shows that you have no confidence in your argument. Why, then, should anyone else take it seriously?onlooker
November 1, 2012
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Upright BiPed, Your 873 appears to be an attempt to take this discussion into an infinite loop. I responded to all of that in 864 and asked a number of questions to try to clarify your meaning, all of which you've ignored. You are repeating the behavior you exhibited when Elizabeth Liddle was posting here -- refusing to engage in good faith and hoping that your ridiculous responses would lead to her becoming frustrated and leaving so that you could claim some kind of victory. No doubt you'd prefer to simply run away from the questions as you did at The Skeptical Zone, but this seems to be your home territory so evasion is your only option. You are demonstrating intellectual dishonesty coupled with a complete lack of integrity. There is no honor in your actions. If you have any confidence at all in the word salad you call an argument, you answer these questions directly. If, instead, you would rather be seen to be more fearful of being proven wrong than of looking like a cowardly fool, continue as you have. The one thing you cannot do is honestly claim that you have an argument that supports ID. The only people who would agree with that are a couple of your less intellectually gifted sycophants here.onlooker
November 1, 2012
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Upright BiPed,
So when you wrote "Well, if that’s how you’re defining "materially arbitrary" for the purposes of your argument, then sure, it’s "materially arbitrary" you were not indicating you understood how I was using the term "materially arbitrary" in my argument?
Clearly any subtlety is lost on you. I'll spell it out for you. Your use of the term "materially arbitrary" is no different than if you invented the word "splangilous" and used that to denote whatever concept it is that you're trying so unsuccessfully to communicate. If you want to use that word, fine. If you want to claim that some object or pattern is splangilous, fine. That doesn't provide allow any outside observer to determine what you mean by it. That's why I continued as follows in the part of my reply you continually refuse to address: I have the same question as before about your definition. Consider this rephrasing: D3. Arbitrary: Not connected by any direct physical mechanism. Is that how you use the word in your argument? If not, what essential characteristics does that definition lack? It's high time you answer these direct, simple questions rather than rhetorically squirming like someone terrified of risking being proven wrong.onlooker
November 1, 2012
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...and thanks to "JDNA4L" as well.Upright BiPed
November 1, 2012
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Eric at 877, Hi Eric, I think that the brevity of the description of information is a quality truly imposed by its material reality. There are a certain (large) number of material configurations in the cosmos, yet only an exceedlingly small fraction of those carry a semantic quality. In my way of thinking, the complexity typically associated with describing information only (really) has to do with our attempts to quantify it - yet our attempts to identify it should remain rather simple. This is why opponents always make a hard run for the mathematical tall grass. Its safe ground not because of its precision, but because of its comparative ambiguity.Upright BiPed
November 1, 2012
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It‘s as if the argument doesn't exist, only tiny disconnected bits of it exist. Self-blindness.Mung
November 1, 2012
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What is really laughable, to me, is that if Upright BiPed was talking about computers and information transfer over the internet, I bet there would be no objection. But apply tie same principles to living things and, oh no! Now we don't know the meaning of arbitrary. Or whether a stochastic process can be inexorable. Or any number of other excuses for feigned ignorance. People like onlooker don't even address the argument. They take tiny pieces of it and argue over them so they won't have to think about the entirety of the argument. It 's as if the argument does exist, only tiny disconnected bits of it exist. Self-blindness.Mung
November 1, 2012
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Wow. I send many many thanks for the encouraging thoughts. Thank you Mung. Thank you Stephen. Thank you Eric.Upright BiPed
November 1, 2012
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Eric Anderson @877. Yes, indeed. You have absorbed and improved on my point. It's almost as if the Darwinists had rationalized their attack on UB's formulation by saying, "Well, I may have failed a preliminary test in basic arithmetic, but that fact alone does not disqualify me from challenging the principles of integral calculus."StephenB
October 31, 2012
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Mung @876: Oh yes, definitely. UB's point is far more subtle and multi-dimensional than mine, and your description of his formulation is apt: He integrates the science with pure logic----and does it successfully. All those If/then's are carefully, delicately, and consciously constructed to serve a specific purpose. His finished product is irreducibly complex.StephenB
October 31, 2012
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StephenB @875: Unfortunately, I think your experience is not unusual. You have a good point. It occurs to me that at some level of debate we don't need a highly technical definition of "information" (not because we don't want to do our best to pin down definitions at the appropriate time; just because it isn't necessary to make the point about how information arises, is transferred, etc.). At an initial stage, we could just stipulate that the "information" stuff we are talking about is the kind of information contained in DNA, as one example. After all, as it relates to origins, that is the information that objectively exists and must be explained. Biology textbooks are replete with references to this information; indeed there is a whole scientific discipline that has arisen in the wake of the discovery of information in life: bioinformatics. Therefore, it is possible to discuss nearly everything we need to discuss just by general reference to information of the type found in DNA. No need to get bogged down with some hyper-technical discussion about what does and does not constitute information. Anyway, just a thought. Actually getting a committed materialist to be willing to have a reasoned discussion on even that neutral approach, however, may be a separate challenge . . . If even with that kind of general and neutral approach to the concept someone is unwilling to acknowledge that there is "information" in DNA, then it is a pretty good bet that any further discussion (e.g., about what information is, how it arises, how it is transmitted, etc.) will be fruitless.Eric Anderson
October 31, 2012
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I love the gist of Upright BiPed's argument though. He's talking about material facts. And logic. If you are going to transfer information in a material system certain things must be true. Darwinism presupposes that system and therefore cannot explain it. The Darwinists have no answer. None.Mung
October 31, 2012
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Upright Biped @873: The quizzical responses to your beautifully explicit argument for information reminds me of some of my more general discussions with Darwinists. ID proponent: “Only an intelligent agent could produce the information present in a DNA molecule.” Darwinist: “Naturalistic forces can produce information just as well as an intelligent agent. ID Proponent: “Only intelligent agents have ever been known to produce information.” Darwiniist: “Information???, Whazzzaaattt???” Give me a more precise definition. ID proponent: Just use the same definition that informed your earlier claim. You’ve got to love it.StephenB
October 31, 2012
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Onlooker, Why do you repeatedlty ask about the nature of the mechanism... given that you've been told a number of times that the observations do not address the nature of the mechanism. You've even been told why they do not address the mechanism. Can you provide a rational explanation for this demonstrated obstinance?Upright BiPed
October 31, 2012
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Onlooker, Perhaps, as a part of your (obviously) very genuine desire to resolve the issue, you could return to the previous post you were responding to, and finally describe this supposed ambiguity you keep insisting exist? I'll be happy to re-post the text here for your convenience:
Now ask yourself some questions: Does the nucleic triplet materially interact with the amino acid? If they do not materially interact, then how do you get from one to the other? Does it require something else (other than the nucleic triplet and the amino acid) to make the material connection between the two? If so, then is this material connection a matter of an inexorable law (existing between the triplet and the amino acid) or is it established by this something else (i.e. the aaRS) which operates within the system? If it is true that the material connection is established locally by the aaRS, and not globally by an inexorable law (between the triplet and the amino acid) then isn’t the relationship between the two “context specific” and “not a matter of inexorable law?” If it is then true that the relationship between the two is “context specific” and “not a matter of inexorable law”, is it also true that no physical laws are broken in establishing this relationship? If it is then true that the relationship is “context specific” and “not a matter of inexorable law” (while at the same time no laws are broken by the operation of system) then is this not an example of a “materially arbitrary” relationship which has been instantiated into a physical system? - – - – - – - – - Now if all of that is true (and it is), then it is a perfectly valid empirical statement to say that the “relationship between the representation and its material effect is context specific; not reducible to physical law (regardless of any mechanism proposed as the origin of the system)”.
Upright BiPed
October 31, 2012
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Onlooker, So when you wrote "Well, if that’s how you’re defining “materially arbitrary” for the purposes of your argument, then sure, it’s “materially arbitrary” you were not indicating you understood how I was using the term "materially arbitrary" in my argument? How odd. In any case, I gather from your retreat in #871, you are still unable to share the big refutation you keep promising. How surprising.Upright BiPed
October 31, 2012
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Upright BiPed, Sorry for the delay in replying. I hooked up with this stormy wench named Sandy and she battered me for a couple of days and left me powerless for a couple more before blowing on out of my life.
Well, if that’s how you’re defining "materially arbitrary" for the purposes of your argument, then sure, it’s "materially arbitrary" by your definition.
Great. You now understand what is meant by "materially arbitrary".
Oh dear. I gave you credit for enough intelligence to be able to detect sarcasm. My apologies, I won't make that mistake again. I also gave you credit for enough honesty not to quote mine what I wrote, particularly when it's so easy to see that you did so. Another mistake I shan't repeat. Here's what you ignored, with such lack of integrity: Given all that, I have the same question as before about your definition. Consider this rephrasing: D3. Arbitrary: Not connected by any direct physical mechanism. Is that how you use the word in your argument? If not, what essential characteristics does that definition lack? I've asked these questions repeatedly. It would progress the discussion if you would answer them. How about an answer this time instead of continuing to demonstrate your fear of being proven wrong by avoiding simple, direct questions?onlooker
October 31, 2012
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Mung, onlooker will believe and say any and all things required to protect her worldview.Upright BiPed
October 30, 2012
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Upright BiPed, I'd bet that onlooker believes the current genetic code evolved from a simpler code while at the same time maintaining she doesn't know what you mean by 'arbitrary.'Mung
October 29, 2012
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onlooker:
That, combined with your repeated use of the word “inexorable”, suggests that you do not consider stochastic mechanisms to be covered by the word “law”.
Could you give us an example of a stochastic physical law that is not inexorable?Mung
October 29, 2012
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Well, if that’s how you’re defining “materially arbitrary” for the purposes of your argument, then sure, it’s “materially arbitrary” by your definition.
haha. hahaha. hahahahahha. So now, understanding the meaning of arbitrary, and having a glimpse of what that means, onlooker goes back to asking what you mean by arbitrary. troll
D3. Arbitrary: Not connected by any direct physical mechanism.
FAIL!
Is that how you use the word in your argument?
No.
If not, what essential characteristics does that definition lack?
First, that's not a definition. Second, it lacks the essential characteristics of the word being defined.
I’ve asked these questions repeatedly.
That right. you're great at repeating things without actually trying to understand. kudos to you.
It would progress the discussion if you would answer them.
And it might progress the discussion if you weren't a troll. But you are, so ...Mung
October 29, 2012
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onlooker:
In fact, every process in the transcription and translation cascade can be described without invoking any violations of chemistry or physics.
And every process inside of a computer can be described without invoking any violations of chemistry or physics. Does that mean computers are reducible to chemistry or physics? No. Every process inside my car's engine can be desicribed without invoking any violations of chemistry or physics. Does that mean my car's engine is reducible to chemistry and physics? No. Is onlooker really as stupid as it makes itself out to be? Most likely...Joe
October 29, 2012
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Well, if that’s how you’re defining “materially arbitrary” for the purposes of your argument, then sure, it’s “materially arbitrary” by your definition.
Great. You now understand what is meant by "materially arbitrary". And just think, it only took you 54 days to grasp what a child could understand in mere minutes. So are you now prepared to demonstrate how the premises are untrue, or that the conclusion does not follow from them? As for your questions regarding a mechanism, I have already answered that back on October 4th. The fact that the relationship between the representation and its effect is materially arbitrary does not address any mechanism proposed to have established that relationship. The observation of the relationship stands on its own.Upright BiPed
October 29, 2012
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Upright BiPed,
Does the nucleic triplet materially interact with the amino acid? If they do not materially interact, then how do you get from one to the other? Does it require something else (other than the nucleic triplet and the amino acid) to make the material connection between the two? If so, then is this material connection a matter of an inexorable law (existing between the triplet and the amino acid) or is it established by this something else (i.e. the aaRS) which operates within the system? If it is true that the material connection is established locally by the aaRS, and not globally by an inexorable law (between the triplet and the amino acid) then isn’t the relationship between the two "context specific" and "not a matter of inexorable law?" If it is then true that the relationship between the two is "context specific" and "not a matter of inexorable law", is it also true that no physical laws are broken in establishing this relationship? If it is then true that the relationship is "context specific" and "not a matter of inexorable law" (while at the same time no laws are broken by the operation of system) then is this not an example of a "materially arbitrary" relationship which has been instantiated into a physical system?
(Bolding mine, to be discussed shortly.) Well, if that's how you're defining "materially arbitrary" for the purposes of your argument, then sure, it's "materially arbitrary" by your definition. Given all that, I have the same question as before about your definition. Consider this rephrasing: D3. Arbitrary: Not connected by any direct physical mechanism. Is that how you use the word in your argument? If not, what essential characteristics does that definition lack? I've asked these questions repeatedly. It would progress the discussion if you would answer them.
Now if all of that is true (and it is), then it is a perfectly valid empirical statement to say that the "relationship between the representation and its material effect is context specific; not reducible to physical law (regardless of any mechanism proposed as the origin of the system)".
Note the bolding in the previous quoted passage and in this one. See the difference? You switch from "inexorable law" to "physical law", which probably explains why you've avoided directly answering this question I've posed repeatedly: Does "law" mean a fully deterministic mechanism or would a stochastic mechanism be covered by that term? As near as I can tell, you're claiming that because there are other conceivable relationships between nucleotide triplets and amino acids that could have existed, the one that does exist is not "reducible to physical law". That, combined with your repeated use of the word "inexorable", suggests that you do not consider stochastic mechanisms to be covered by the word "law". All that's fine -- your argument, your definitions. However, your words don't change reality. In fact, every process in the transcription and translation cascade can be described without invoking any violations of chemistry or physics. If you are suggesting that the relationship we observe could not have arisen without some violation of chemistry and physics, you've got a lot more work to do to support such an assertion. In addition to all the other questions you've avoided answering, we're back to one you ran away from at The Skeptical Zone: How does your argument, assuming you ever make it coherent, support ID?onlooker
October 29, 2012
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Onlooker, It’s good that you picked the following passage to try and make your point:
Yet, which amino acid appears at the peptide binding site is not determined by pair bonding; it is determined by the aaRS. In other words, which amino acid appears at the binding site is only evoked by the physical structure of the nucleic triplet, but is not determined by it. Instead, it is determined (in spatial and temporal isolation) by the physical structure of the aaRS. This is the point of translation; the point where the arbitrary component of the representation is allowed to evoke a response in a physically determined system – while preserving the arbitrary nature of the representation.
Allow me to draw your attention to two specific sentences: "which amino acid appears at the binding site is only evoked by the physical structure of the nucleic triplet, but is not determined by it. Instead, it is determined (in spatial and temporal isolation) by the physical structure of the aaRS." Now ask yourself some questions: Does the nucleic triplet materially interact with the amino acid? If they do not materially interact, then how do you get from one to the other? Does it require something else (other than the nucleic triplet and the amino acid) to make the material connection between the two? If so, then is this material connection a matter of an inexorable law (existing between the triplet and the amino acid) or is it established by this something else (i.e. the aaRS) which operates within the system? If it is true that the material connection is established locally by the aaRS, and not globally by an inexorable law (between the triplet and the amino acid) then isn't the relationship between the two “context specific” and “not a matter of inexorable law?” If it is then true that the relationship between the two is "context specific" and "not a matter of inexorable law", is it also true that no physical laws are broken in establishing this relationship? If it is then true that the relationship is "context specific" and "not a matter of inexorable law" (while at the same time no laws are broken by the operation of system) then is this not an example of a “materially arbitrary" relationship which has been instantiated into a physical system? - - - - - - - - - Now if all of that is true (and it is), then it is a perfectly valid empirical statement to say that the “relationship between the representation and its material effect is context specific; not reducible to physical law (regardless of any mechanism proposed as the origin of the system)”.Upright BiPed
October 26, 2012
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