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UB Sets It Out Step-By-Step

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UD Editors:  No one has come close to refuting UB’s thesis after 129 comments.  We are moving this post to the top of the page to give the materialists another chance.

I take the following from an excellent comment UB made in a prior post.  UB lays out his argument step by step, precept by precept.  Then he arrives at a conclusion.  In order for his argument to be valid, the conclusion must follow from the premises.  In order for his argument to be sound, each of the premises must be true.

Now here is the challenge to our Darwinist friends.  If you disagree with UB’s conclusion, please demonstrate how his argument is either invalid (as a matter of logic the conclusion does not follow from the premises) or unsound (one or more of the premises are false).  Good luck (you’re going to need it).

Without further ado, here is UB’s argument:

1.  A representation is an arrangement of matter which evokes an effect within a system (e.g. written text, spoken words, pheromones, animal gestures, codes, sensory input, intracellular messengers, nucleotide sequences, etc, etc).

2.  It is not logically possible to transfer information (the form of a thing; a measured aspect, quality, or preference) in a material universe without using a representation instantiated in matter.

3.  If that is true, and it surely must be, then several other things must logically follow. If there is now an arrangement of matter which contains a representation of form as a consequence of its own material arrangement, then that arrangement must be necessarily arbitrary to the thing it represents. In other words, if one thing is to represent another thing within a system, then it must be separate from the thing it represents. And if it is separate from it, then it cannot be anything but materially arbitrary to it (i.e. they cannot be the same thing).

4.  If that is true, then the presence of that representation must present a material component to the system (which is reducible to physical law), while its arrangement presents an arbitrary component to the system (which is not reducible to physical law).

5.  If that is true, and again it surely must be, then there has to be something else which establishes the otherwise non-existent relationship between the representation and the effect it evokes within the system. In fact, this is the material basis of Francis Crick’s famous ‘adapter hypothesis’ in DNA, which lead to a revolution in the biological sciences. In a material universe, that something else must be a second arrangement of matter; coordinated to the first arrangement as well as to the effect it evokes.

6.  It then also follows that this second arrangement must produce its unambiguous function, not from the mere presence of the representation, but from its arrangement.  It is the arbitrary component of the representation which produces the function.

7.  And if those observations are true, then in order to actually transfer recorded information, two discrete arrangements of matter are inherently required by the process; and both of these objects must necessarily have a quality that extends beyond their mere material make-up. The first is a representation and the second is a protocol (a systematic, operational rule instantiated in matter) and together they function as a formal system. They are the irreducible complex core which is fundamentally required in order to transfer recorded information.

8.  During protein synthesis, a selected portion of DNA is first transcribed into mRNA, then matured and transported to the site of translation within the ribosome. This transcription process facilitates the input of information (the arbitrary component of the DNA sequence) into the system. The input of this arbitrary component functions to constrain the output, producing the polypeptides which demonstrate unambiguous function.

9.  From a causal standpoint, the arbitrary component of DNA is transcribed to mRNA, and those mRNA are then used to order tRNA molecules within the ribosome. Each stage of this transcription process is determined by the physical forces of pair bonding. Yet, which amino acid appears at the peptide binding site is not determined by pair bonding; it is determined  by the aaRS. In other words, which amino acid appears at the binding site is only evoked by the physical structure of the nucleic triplet, but is not determined by it. Instead, it is determined (in spatial and temporal isolation) by the physical structure of the aaRS. This is the point of translation; the point where the arbitrary component of the representation is allowed to evoke a response in a physically determined system – while preserving the arbitrary nature of the representation.

10.  This physical event, translation by a material protocol, as well as the transcription of a material representation, is ubiquitous in the transfer of recorded information.

CONCLUSION:  These two physical objects (the representation and protocol) along with the required preservation of the arbitrary component of the representation, and the production of unambiguous function from that arbitrary component, confirm that the transfer of recorded information in the genome is just like any other form of recorded information. It’s an arbitrary relationship instantiated in matter.

Comments
That's what comes of trying to argue with people who worship things their own hands have made, so to speak. Pity Moses when he came down from the mountain.Axel
December 22, 2012
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It was just laughable how these people were insinuating that “Semiotic Theory” was something you made up or something that was exclusive to you.
Yes, but I don't think it was "semiosis" so much that they objected to. They've been hand-waiving away semiosis for years. What they don't appreciate is having the real-world material consequences of information transfer laid out in a coherent argument they couldn't refute. Such is the material evidence. They also don't like my demonstration that an irreducibly complex core is fundamentally required in order to translate information from an information-bearing medium. Again, such is the evidence. Rebutals such as "it's just an analogy" or "when we say 'information' we know what we are talking about" are hereby refuted by observation and logic. What is left for the materialist to explain is how a formal system, requiring a fundamental coordination of materially-arbitrary objects, can come into being prior to the onset of informational organization and contraint.Upright BiPed
December 22, 2012
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Eventually, the discovery of the genetic code suggested that the cell itself has a semiotic structure, and the goal of biosemiotics became the idea that all living creatures are semiotic systems. - Introduction to Biosemiotics
Now if we can just deny the genetic code...Mung
December 22, 2012
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The vision of nature as an intelligible place has nourished confidence in the scientific project ever since the times of the Enlightenment. One prominent source of this belief was in Thomas Aquinas' teaching in the 13th century which strongly emphasized the inner connection between the two great books, the book of God, i.e., the Bible, and the book of nature. The will of God manifested itself in the creation as well as in the Bible and therefore reading the "Book of Nature" was a necessary supplement to reading of "The Book of God." That God in his benevolence would not have created nature as an unruly and lawless place seemed obvious to most Christian thinkers. - Jesper Hoffmeyer
Introduction to Biosemiotics: The New Biological Synthesis Not to pull this thread off topic, but perhaps it is this view that God's revelation is not restricted to the Bible alone that divides many IDists from Creationists.Mung
December 22, 2012
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Mung, Thanks for your many quotes, and participation.
I'm just a toad. :) But thank you. I think you've already discerned that I have an extensive library. I wish I had a memory to match! If I can ever be of assistance in making something available do ask. It was just laughable how these people were insinuating that "Semiotic Theory" was something you made up or something that was exclusive to you. There's just no substitute for ignorance!Mung
December 22, 2012
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Reciprocating Bill tried again over at TSZ:
Walker and Davies early state a definition of a Darwinian process:
Darwinian evolution applies to everything from simple software programs, molecular replicators, and memes, to systems as complex as multicellular life and even potentially the human brain – therefore spanning a gamut of phenomena ranging from artificial systems, to simple chemistry, to highly complex biology. The power of the Darwinian paradigm is precisely its capacity to unify such diverse phenomena, particularly across the tree of life – all that is required are the well-defined processes of replication with variation, and selection.
Mung, do you agree with this bolded definition?
My response:
No. For one, I don’t believe that software programs are Darwinian. Nor do I believe the processes they [Walker and Davies] refer to are well-defined, particularly with regard to the various phenomena they list.
So RB appears to make an attempt at picking up the mantle of keiths. But pretty weak so far.Mung
December 22, 2012
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Another way of asking might be something like, “Where do ribosomes come from? Does their construction also necessitate the prior functioning of the information processing system, and all of its requisite parts, including the arbitrary nature of where the information content meets the physical world?”
MrMosis, In the off chance that you are still following this thread, I will offer an answer to your question. In broad terms, when a cell divides a copy of the genetic information from the parent cell is copied for the daughter cell. This includes the information for the synthesis of ribosomes and all the other necessary components of gene expression. Following that copying process, during actual cell division, ribosomes and other cellular machinery (already contained in the parent cell) are divided between the parent and daughter, giving the daughter the capacity to sustain itself from the information provided by the parent. - - - - - - - - - Mung, Thanks for your many quotes, and participation. - - - - - - - - - Alan, It's a little late in the day to be playing the "I don't understand" card. Biosemiosis is an observed fact, as surely as gravity. :) - - - - - - - - - RB, It's apparent from your disengagement that you do not wish to argue the point presented in 1351. As is typical of rhetorical defense, your position has been defeated by the logic you ignored in contriving it.Upright BiPed
December 22, 2012
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MrMosis:
One first [probably elementary] question I often wonder about is: where is the information stored that prescribes the materials and methods for “manufacturing” the apparatus used for the receiving of a transmitted/stored message.
This is a great question! When speaking of cells, some people seem to believe that all requisite information is stored in the DNA, but I am not one of them. And it's because of questions like the one you ask. The how to questions. The meta questions. I think we have yet a great deal to discover yet about the informational aspects of living cells. Say the DNA contains the coding for a protein. Does it also contain the information about what that protein binds, what's it's purpose is? Does it contain the information about why that particular protein? I think not, but how can we test this? I hope you won't be offended, but I googled ribosome and this is what I got, lol: http://www.biology4kids.com/files/cell_ribos.html But it doesn't say how ribosomes are made, hehe. Nice to have you join in. Center for Molecular Biology of RNA Ribosome - Proteopedia, life in 3D And of course, NCBI: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK21054/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK21475/Mung
December 20, 2012
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I love this thread, but have not even almost been able to keep up with it since it first started. So I apologize in advance if this is a dumb question, or is discussed repeatedly and at length in the preceding 1630+ comments. (Admittedly, I am not even (yet) a novice, when it comes to any Biology, particularly a molecular sort. But I do hope to find the time to get into it all before long.) One first [probably elementary] question I often wonder about is: where is the information stored that prescribes the materials and methods for "manufacturing" the apparatus used for the receiving of a transmitted/stored message. I am trying to develop (in my own mind anyway) a conceptual framework for how, if warranted, one could distinguish between: 1) an information storage/transmission system that includes in its information content "instructions" that in a more mechanistic fashion create a machine (and possibly also "establish" a code) that will be subsequently used for the reading/receipt of the rest of the information, whose encoding is of arbitrary nature with respect to the medium and 2) more every-day information storage/transmission systems where the entirety of the way in which the information content is encoded is arbitrary with respect to the medium. There are several [hopefully accurate] presuppositions in #1 above (a novice biologist's presuppositions) that I am hoping will facilitate rather than complicate what I am trying to get at. Another way of asking might be something like, "Where do ribosomes come from? Does their construction also necessitate the prior functioning of the information processing system, and all of its requisite parts, including the arbitrary nature of where the information content meets the physical world?" Or, Where, when and how is the line drawn between the mechanistic processes related to the storage/transmission/reading/receipt of the information and the grounding of the arbitrarily arranged (non-mechanistically associated/arranged) nucleotide bits, a/k/a "information". Hope that makes some sense.MrMosis
December 20, 2012
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Unparsed would seem a more accurate interpretation!
LOL! Parsed to death would be more like it! arbirarty: D1, D2, D3 D4, D5, D6 ....... ad infinitumMung
December 20, 2012
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The OP and the argument in it remain un-refuted. Alan Fox:
Unparsed would seem a more accurate interpretation!
Unparsed only to the illiterate. As for where do we go from here, ie from the design inference, well where do the archaeologists go once they have determined they are holding artifacts? Where do forensic scientists go once they have determined a crime has taken place? Where would SETI researchers go once they find a signal that matches the ET criteria? In order to understand a design you first have to determine design is present. And then once design is determined it changes the investigation.Joe
December 20, 2012
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petrushka:
Information is an abstraction, the properties of stuff. Feel free to present a counterexample. Give me an instance of information that is free of matter or energy.
lol. You want me to transfer information in a material universe without using a representation instantiated in matter? So you want me to prove Upright BiPed wrong. Sorry, I don't feel like letting you all off the hook like that. :) Basically, you're agreeing with him. Do you know that?Mung
December 20, 2012
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http://theskepticalzone.com/wp/?p=1495&cpage=1#comment-18935Mung
December 20, 2012
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Man, there are some serious failures in basic comprehension and reasoning over at TSZ. Upright BiPed:
2. It is not logically possible to transfer information (the form of a thing; a measured aspect, quality, or preference) in a material universe without using a representation instantiated in matter.
petrushka:
So yes, information is always instantiated in matter or energy. I thought the ID side had reached agreement on this.
First, Upright BiPed did not say that information is always instantiated in matter or energy. What he said was, if you want to transfer information in a material universe, information requires a material representation. And given that the representation is not the thing being represented, it does not follow that because the transfer of information in a material universe requires a material representation that information is just the result of matter and energy alone. So my initial questions still stand: Information – is that one of those things that cannot be empirically detected? Is information just the result of matter and energy alone?
Mung
December 20, 2012
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Theses on Biosemiotics: Prolegomena to a Theoretical Biology
II. Biology is incomplete as a science in the absence of explicit semiotic grounding The neodarwinian biology as practiced all over the world has prescinded (i.e., abstracted from necessary contextual support) an asemiotic conception of life as mere molecular chemistry, and yet at the same time is dependent on unanalyzed semiotic assumptions.
- Towards a Semiotic Biology: Life is the Action of SignsMung
December 19, 2012
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Seriously, Alan, why does he need to go anywhere?
He doesn't of course!
The OP and the argument in it remain un-refuted.
Unparsed would seem a more accurate interpretation!
He can stand here and wait, and wait, and wait, just as he has been, until another of you jokers shows up and makes extravagant claims that they have no hope of backing up (e.g., Elizabeth Liddle).
He can indeed! What would the point be?
Just the entertainment value alone is worth the wait.
Right. I thought there was some real point involved. Silly me!
But did you even bother to read the above linked?
No.
The scientific community is beginning to catch on. No need for Upright BiPed to go anywhere.
I await the press release!
Meanwhile, your side falls further and further behind. You’re left denying the facts in the vain hope no one will notice that you’re now a member of a cult.
I'm a member of one or two things but they wouldn't have me in the local cult. I am just a curious observer of the fortunes of "Intelligent Design" advocates. ID success is not linked to the progress of alternative philosophies.Alan Fox
December 18, 2012
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Seriously, Alan, why does he need to go anywhere? The OP and the argument in it remain un-refuted. He can stand here and wait, and wait, and wait, just as he has been, until another of you jokers shows up and makes extravagant claims that they have no hope of backing up (e.g., Elizabeth Liddle). Just the entertainment value alone is worth the wait. But did you even bother to read the above linked? The scientific community is beginning to catch on. No need for Upright BiPed to go anywhere. Meanwhile, your side falls further and further behind. You're left denying the facts in the vain hope no one will notice that you're now a member of a cult.Mung
December 18, 2012
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Seriously, Upright Biped, I'm curious. Where do you go from here?Alan Fox
December 18, 2012
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Davies and Walker explain that life cannot be all analog, nor can it be all digital. Analog life would not survive geological time, they argue, because it lacks a method to encode adaptations to change. Digital-only life fails from the starting gate, though, because it cannot deal with biological function. That's because the information in life as we know it is stored in the system as a whole, not just in the genetic macromolecules: function involves all the networks of analog molecules, their feedback loops, and their ability to modify DNA itself. The hybrid "RNA World" scenario with its half-genetic, half-metabolic ribozymes is flawed because "there would be no way to physically decouple information and control from the hardware it operates on, resulting in unreliable information protocols due to noisy information channels." Indeed, "that mono-molecular systems are divided from known life by a logical and organizational chasm that cannot be crossed by mere complexification of passive hardware." For these reasons, Davies and Walker believe life had to be "'bimolecular' from the start," with analog and digital components separated, working together as a system.
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/12/assessing_the_a067541.htmlMung
December 18, 2012
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Reciprocating Bill, I have to agree with Eric. I'd really love to see Upright BiPed caught in a compromising position, I really can't stand the guy (or girl). But you cutting and pasting statements and then saying "see, therefore something else must be true," I find that hard to follow. Are you making claims about his position, or about claims he's made about your position, or what?Mung
December 17, 2012
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Mung, thanks. My bad, I was scrolling too quickly. I'm sure glad we don't have deception on either side now! :) ----- RB, I realize I'm tangential to your discussion with UB, but #1342 seeks to cut to the chase and understand what your underlying substantive argument is. Would you be so kind as to briefly identify for the rest of us which category you are in?Eric Anderson
December 17, 2012
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Bill, More rhetoric? This text is from the same post: Bill deliberately reposts the same quote over and over, but he knows the falsity of the statement doesn’t turn on whether my argument does or doesn’t demonstrate a particular class of cause. The falsity of the claim is tied to Bill asking the argument to do something it was not intended to do. A thermometer cannot tell you how many degrees are in an angle. Claiming that “it can’t” is factually true. Claiming that “it can’t” as an argumentative strategy against the thermometer, is a patently false claim." Argue it out.Upright BiPed
December 17, 2012
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UB:
I am so deeply thankful that my intellectual life is not dependent on rhetorical device and deception.
You omitted self-deception. Above you state that my argument was founded on a falsehood - in fact, a "patent falsehood." I forthwith reproduced your earlier explicit, unequivocal endorsement of those same statements. And your rationalization?
Your claim is not patently false because my argument does not require or exclude a particular class of causation. [Translation: It is not false because it is false.] It is patently false because of what you are doing with it
We have a new dictionary entry from Grima Wormtongue: "False statement: A statement that is true, but I don't like what you do with it." Welcome to intellectual Chapter 7, UB.Reciprocating Bill
December 17, 2012
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I don't know about you, but I'm still waiting to see a refutation.Mung
December 17, 2012
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So ... What next, Upright Biped?Alan Fox
December 17, 2012
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Eric, I think you were quoting Upright BiPed.Mung
December 17, 2012
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RB:
I am so deeply thankful that my intellectual life is not dependent on rhetorical device and deception. That is all this exchange has been about.
Excellent. So would you mind answering my question in 1342? (No rhetorical devices or deceptions needed.)Eric Anderson
December 17, 2012
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Eric at 1342, You are correct that this conversation has narrowed to pointless back and forth. The current exchange doesn’t even impact the issues in the OP. This is just a part of the rhetorical game Bill is playing, which I have felt obligated to respond to. However, if you are referring to RB’s set-up in 1341 regarding the statement of a “patently false claim”, I did not misspeak. Bill deliberately reposts the same quote over and over, but he knows the falsity of the statement doesn’t turn on whether my argument does or doesn’t demonstrate a particular class of cause. The falsity of the claim is tied to Bill asking the argument to do something it was not intended to do. A thermometer cannot tell you how many degrees are in an angle. Claiming that “it can’t” is factually true. Claiming that “it can’t” as an argumentative strategy against the thermometer, is a patently false claim. Bill at 1341, “…you also falsely claim that it [semiosis] ”neither requires a nor excludes a particular kind of causation”. And on the basis of this patently false claim… Your claim is not patently false because my argument does not require or exclude a particular class of causation. It is patently false because of what you are doing with it. My argument was not designed to require or exclude a particular class of causation; it was designed to inventory the material requirements of that causation. You know this because I’ve repeatedly told you so.Upright BiPed
December 17, 2012
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Q: Does semiotic theory per se [the fire tetrahedron] assert that a particular class or classes of mechanism is required to create (result in, cause) the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state [set a fire]? A: "No" Q: Conversely, does semiotic theory per se [the fire tetrahedron] assert that a particular class or classes of mechanism cannot create (result in, cause) the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state [set a fire]? A: "No" Q: If neither, how can the theory itself can be said to constrain the set of possible causal mechanisms? Would it not be silent on causation? A: (given 333 comments ago) The tetrahedron defines without exception what is required for a fire to occur, but does not identify who or what may have caused the fire. Yet, if a fuel and heat source (specific material conditions) are required, then we know that the cause of that fire will have had to provide those requirements if they are not locally accounted for otherwise. Refutation of this obvious fact: zip Acknowledgement of this fact: zip Rhetorical maneuvering: non-stopUpright BiPed
December 16, 2012
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RB: Does semiotic theory per se assert that a particular class or classes of mechanism is required to create (result in, cause) the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state? UB: "No" RB: Conversely, does semiotic theory per se assert that a particular class or classes of mechanism cannot create (result in, cause) the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state? UB: "No" RB: If neither, how can the theory itself can be said to constrain the set of possible causal mechanisms? Would it not be silent on causation? UB: What else constrains the evaluation of a “set of possible causal mechanisms” if not what is necessary for them to accomplish? Are you suggesting that we should attempt to apprehend a causal mechanism without understanding what is necessary? Are you suggesting that all causal mechanisms are equal? If these are not what you are suggesting, then knowing ‘what is necessary’ helps to illuminate any proposition to follow. Do you disagree? RB: Of course a description of the system we wish to understand is a crucial element in the search for causes. The question is, does adding “the system is semiotic” as defined in semiotic theory to that description add anything of value to our current physiochemical understanding? UB: It tells us that the process has a physiochemically-arbitrary relationship instantiated within it which is not only necessary for it to operate, but is also the specific source of the function it produces. And as you say, this is a “crucial element” if we wish to understand the system as it actually exist. RB’s refutation? (zip) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - I am so deeply thankful that my intellectual life is not dependent on rhetorical device and deception. That is all this exchange has been about. It was never about the prize of scientific truth, supportable warrant, or validity. If I was debating an opponent who substantiated the notion that X was the result of Y, I would be literally embarrassed to argue on as I ignored that notion. I simply wouldn't do it, and I think there are many UD contributors that feel that same way. Bill does not suffer from such scruples, and his prize is otherwise. His hilarious claim that I quote-mined him is a perfect example. He repeats over and over that I have contradicted myself with regard to excluding living agents, while he deceptively ignores the distinction pointed out to him hundreds of post ago. And here yet again, he repeats over and over my one-word answers of "no" to his questions regarding causation, while he deceptively ignores the exchange that followed those answers. Literally, what does one do when, despite one's best attempts at encouraging a legitimate debate, it becomes obvious that the only prize on the table is anathema to that end.Upright BiPed
December 16, 2012
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