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UB Sets It Out Step-By-Step

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UD Editors:  No one has come close to refuting UB’s thesis after 129 comments.  We are moving this post to the top of the page to give the materialists another chance.

I take the following from an excellent comment UB made in a prior post.  UB lays out his argument step by step, precept by precept.  Then he arrives at a conclusion.  In order for his argument to be valid, the conclusion must follow from the premises.  In order for his argument to be sound, each of the premises must be true.

Now here is the challenge to our Darwinist friends.  If you disagree with UB’s conclusion, please demonstrate how his argument is either invalid (as a matter of logic the conclusion does not follow from the premises) or unsound (one or more of the premises are false).  Good luck (you’re going to need it).

Without further ado, here is UB’s argument:

1.  A representation is an arrangement of matter which evokes an effect within a system (e.g. written text, spoken words, pheromones, animal gestures, codes, sensory input, intracellular messengers, nucleotide sequences, etc, etc).

2.  It is not logically possible to transfer information (the form of a thing; a measured aspect, quality, or preference) in a material universe without using a representation instantiated in matter.

3.  If that is true, and it surely must be, then several other things must logically follow. If there is now an arrangement of matter which contains a representation of form as a consequence of its own material arrangement, then that arrangement must be necessarily arbitrary to the thing it represents. In other words, if one thing is to represent another thing within a system, then it must be separate from the thing it represents. And if it is separate from it, then it cannot be anything but materially arbitrary to it (i.e. they cannot be the same thing).

4.  If that is true, then the presence of that representation must present a material component to the system (which is reducible to physical law), while its arrangement presents an arbitrary component to the system (which is not reducible to physical law).

5.  If that is true, and again it surely must be, then there has to be something else which establishes the otherwise non-existent relationship between the representation and the effect it evokes within the system. In fact, this is the material basis of Francis Crick’s famous ‘adapter hypothesis’ in DNA, which lead to a revolution in the biological sciences. In a material universe, that something else must be a second arrangement of matter; coordinated to the first arrangement as well as to the effect it evokes.

6.  It then also follows that this second arrangement must produce its unambiguous function, not from the mere presence of the representation, but from its arrangement.  It is the arbitrary component of the representation which produces the function.

7.  And if those observations are true, then in order to actually transfer recorded information, two discrete arrangements of matter are inherently required by the process; and both of these objects must necessarily have a quality that extends beyond their mere material make-up. The first is a representation and the second is a protocol (a systematic, operational rule instantiated in matter) and together they function as a formal system. They are the irreducible complex core which is fundamentally required in order to transfer recorded information.

8.  During protein synthesis, a selected portion of DNA is first transcribed into mRNA, then matured and transported to the site of translation within the ribosome. This transcription process facilitates the input of information (the arbitrary component of the DNA sequence) into the system. The input of this arbitrary component functions to constrain the output, producing the polypeptides which demonstrate unambiguous function.

9.  From a causal standpoint, the arbitrary component of DNA is transcribed to mRNA, and those mRNA are then used to order tRNA molecules within the ribosome. Each stage of this transcription process is determined by the physical forces of pair bonding. Yet, which amino acid appears at the peptide binding site is not determined by pair bonding; it is determined  by the aaRS. In other words, which amino acid appears at the binding site is only evoked by the physical structure of the nucleic triplet, but is not determined by it. Instead, it is determined (in spatial and temporal isolation) by the physical structure of the aaRS. This is the point of translation; the point where the arbitrary component of the representation is allowed to evoke a response in a physically determined system – while preserving the arbitrary nature of the representation.

10.  This physical event, translation by a material protocol, as well as the transcription of a material representation, is ubiquitous in the transfer of recorded information.

CONCLUSION:  These two physical objects (the representation and protocol) along with the required preservation of the arbitrary component of the representation, and the production of unambiguous function from that arbitrary component, confirm that the transfer of recorded information in the genome is just like any other form of recorded information. It’s an arbitrary relationship instantiated in matter.

Comments
To keiths- Please explain, line by line, how you came up with your "summary" of Upright Biped's argument. IOW clarify yourself as we don't understand your point. Use your "summary" line for line against this thread's OP. That way we can understand your problem and possibly help you with it. That is if you are really interested in reaching an understanding... :razz:Joe
September 12, 2012
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That has nothing to do with ID. As I said we can determine designed or not without having to know how. And speaking of pure BS-
You cannot “determine X” without testing whether X is possible.
So archaeologists rebuilt Stonehenge, the Pyramids, Puma Punku, etc using the peoples and technology of the times in which they were built? But I digress, we know, because we have direct observation of, that agencies can do things with nature that nature itself cannot do. THAT is the whole point of the design inference- we have direct observational evidence of agencies producing semiotic systems, producing CSI, producing counterflow and leaving behind signs of work. IOW the design infernece is based on our knowledge of cause and effect relationships in accordance with uniformitarianism- meaning it has been and is being tested every day. But then again you guys don't seem to understand how science works because you hold to your position despite the total lack of supporting evidence because you do have a handful of promissory notes...Joe
September 12, 2012
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Hello Daniel, I should have been more explicit. Here is a snapshot: The ID critics have been given the argument. Their response has been to do anything whatsoever except engage the evidence. RB took the intellectual lead at TSZ and denied any need to engage the evidence because there was a supposed logical flaw in the argument. It took two months for him to concede otherwise. After his concession he was unfortunately left with the need to engage the evidence. But did he do so? No, he regressed back into the comfort of his supposed logical flaw, and summarily started the whole thing over again. Then there was Keith. Instead of engaging the evidence, he simply rewrote the argument itself, and attacked that instead. This is a move he continues to this very day. Then there was Elizabeth. Instead of attacking the evidence, she simply conceded all my points and then stood there wondering why any of this could be construed as an argument for design. The list goes on and on. Now the argument is “it just too incomprehensible to understand”. Of course, a forthcoming attack on the evidence is sincerely promised, even threatened, but only after those difficult words like “arbitrary” are understood. Give me a break. :| My comment above (which you referred to) is simply to say that my argument has been read and understood by many. In this instance, it doesn’t even matter if others agree with it, but only that they understood it. (which they did). So to avoid the evidence and hide behind “OMG it’s just too difficult to understand” is pure BS. And it’s in endless supply. As for identifying those who have read my argument, I will refrain for the specific reasons I’ve already stated. People are free to make of that whatever they wish. That has been the standard thus far.Upright BiPed
September 12, 2012
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>"That has nothing to do with ID. As I said we can determine designed or not without having to know how. And YOUR position can’t tell us the “how” of anything so obvioulsy it isn’t a requirement"< How true this is, how many times do we here the repetitive drum beat of, "Evolution has nothing to do with Abiogenesis"wateron1
September 12, 2012
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You definitely did NOT show us any ID courage when you refused to take a stab at providing evidence for the downloading of the first “arbitrary semiotic codes” and the “onlookers” have noted that.
That has nothing to do with ID. As I said we can determine designed or not without having to know how. And YOUR position can't tell us the "how" of anything so obvioulsy it isn't a requirement
They see us asking you for mechanisms and your side providing none.
They see I have provided several- 1- "built-in responses to environmental cues" 2- targeted search 3- designed to evolve/ evolved by design 4- front-loaded evolution But then again you don't seem to understand what a mechanism is.... And Allan, seeing that you don't have any evidence to support your position, what would you debate if you could post here?Joe
September 12, 2012
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Is that really how you want to be perceived?
How we are perceived by a bunch of equivocating intellectual cowards is of no consequence. Upright Biped is sooooo ashamed of his argument that he posted it on how many forums? At least one of "theirs" and one of ours. And all he gets for that is total argument in minutia and semantic quibbling. Obviously you don't care how you are perceived...Joe
September 12, 2012
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UB wrote:
We can set aside the fact that my argument has already been vetted by specialists elsewhere...
Would you kindly provide links to those vettings? That should shut up the doubters. Or, at least give them something to chew on... Respectfully, DanielDaniel King
September 12, 2012
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By the way, you coming on this board and taking the 63 words of my #1 and #2 in the OP, and spending 260 words explicitly illuminating just how masterfully you could trim them down to just 23 words in a coherent statement that suits you, is not much of a demonstration of how incomprehensible the argument is.
LOL!Mung
September 12, 2012
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onlooker:
keiths is giving you the courtesy of actually paying attention to what you are saying and attempting to understand it.
And his pretense is no doubt just as sincere as your own. Why won't you answer the questions, onlooker?Mung
September 12, 2012
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Onlooker, you are just not any good at this. Allow me to explain. Anytime you try to flank your opposition (i.e. a move into uncontested territory; a diversion away from the strength of the position in front of you) it is 100% incumbent upon you to get your opposition to take your bait. Otherwise, your maneuver will fail. That is a tactical rule that has been well understood for about 2500 years. Well… I’m not taking your bait. You desperately need me to think “wow, my argument is just so hard to understand” that “people might think I’m afraid to clarify it”. If you could just get me to buy off on that, then I would give you your desperately-needed diversion. Your problem is that you are not even the slightest bit convincing. We can set aside the fact that my argument has already been vetted by specialists elsewhere; and we can set aside the fact that Barry wouldn’t have posted it here if it was incomprehensible; or that others on this forum (some of them biologists, technologists, engineers, programmers, and doctors) seem to read it correctly. However, the one thing we cannot set aside is that I have been watching you shoot yourself in the foot from the beginning, or that I own a dictionary. - - - - - - - - - By the way, you coming on this board and taking the 63 words of my #1 and #2 in the OP, and spending 260 words explicitly illuminating just how masterfully you could trim them down to just 23 words in a coherent statement that suits you, is not much of a demonstration of how incomprehensible the argument is. In fact, that was a rank amateur’s mistake, performed with great fanfare. But don’t sweat it. It was obvious you wanted to show how smart you are.Upright BiPed
September 12, 2012
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Upright BiPed,
Keith is literally in a full blown tantrum, rocking back and forth in his seat and kicking his feet.
That interpretation of the comment I quoted from TSZ is no more accurate than your claims about Reciprocating Bill. keiths is giving you the courtesy of actually paying attention to what you are saying and attempting to understand it. Your choice to cast baseless aspersions in lieu of providing answers says far more about your character than his.
They sure as hell are not going to engage in a public argument over the meaning of words like "arbitrary" and "information".
I'm not trying to debate your definitions, merely to get enough clarity about them so that I can understand what you are trying to convey with your argument. I note for the record that you have still failed to answer any of the direct questions posed to you nor have you chosen any of the other three options presented by keiths. The only conclusion that can be drawn at this point is that previously quoted from The Skeptical Zone:
You, on the other hand, seem ashamed of your argument and afraid of what might happen if you stated it clearly and explicitly. Instead of clarifying, you obfuscate. Instead of answering questions straightforwardly, you evade them. You complain that others are misrepresenting your position, but when they ask you for correction, you refuse to give it. Then you declare victory, saying that no one has defeated your argument! For you, the entire exercise seems to be more about saving face than it is about communicating your ideas. In fact, you appear to be deliberately avoiding communication precisely in order to save face. Why should anyone take your argument seriously if you are so ashamed of it? Why are you afraid to communicate it in a way that your audience will actually understand?
You are behaving exactly as one would expect you to if you lacked confidence in your ability to defend your argument and were more concerned with not being proven wrong than with finding out the truth. Is that really how you want to be perceived?onlooker
September 12, 2012
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keiths:
You claim to have a “Semiotic Theory of ID” that applies to the protein synthesis system.
It does.
Your argument must therefore lead to the conclusion that the protein synthesis system is designed.
It does as it fits the criteria. You lost, get over it already...Joe
September 12, 2012
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People who want their arguments to be understood define their terms clearly and answer questions to resolve confusion.
The terms are clearly understood by anyone who A) knows how to use a dictionary (or the English language) and B) isn't on an anti-ID agenda. You and the TSZ regulars appear to be both A and B. But that is because you guys are the big C, as in Cowards. Congratulations...Joe
September 12, 2012
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Why is it that only the anti-IDists who have tardgasms every time the word "information" is mentioned? How is it that these people use the intertubes, buy food, drive a car, use a phone- all of which require information- but don't even understand what it is they are doing, ie using information?Joe
September 12, 2012
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wateron1
Question for Upright and others, why is none of this or any other research guided by ID principles, presented at mainstream science conferences?
That’s an excellent question. Speaking only for the argument above, I began trying to work through this issue starting in Sept 2009, and have never seen the argument articulated above until I wrote it out myself. However, the material basis of each point in the argument obviously appears in any number of peer-reviewed papers (none of it is even controversial). Since I am a Research Director in Network media, I do not produce peer-reviewed science articles. That is why this particular argument has not appeared in any journals, and subsequently is why it has not appeared as part of a conference either. However, to address your larger question, the answer is rather simple – mainstream peer-review journals and conference submissions are biased against data which could logically support an ID paradigm. This is not even a question, and the clues are scattered around for anyone to see. Take for instance the people who are most likely to gravitate towards the argument above – biosemioticians . Read a biosemiotician's paper on origins and they leave no doubt whatsoever: life began with the onset of semiotic content. It is the organizing reality that life requires in order to separate itself from inanimate objects. (Thomas Sebeok; “life and semioisis are coextensive”, Jesper Hoffmeyer “the basic unit of life is the sign, not the molecule”, Marcello Barbieri “semiosis not only is a fact of life but is ‘the’ fact that allowed life to emerge from inanimate matter”, Howard Pattee “life is matter controlled by symbols”, etc, etc). Yet, look at the paper by Marcello Barbieri (“A Short History of Biosemiotics”) where he writes of the “new unification” of differing schools of semiotic thought stemming from their annual conference in 2004. He states that there are two postulates that forged this unification. The first postulate is that ‘semiosis appeared at the origin of life’, differentiating it from pansemiotics and physiosemiotics (which promoted semiotics in inanimate matter). And the second postulate was simply that biosemiotics will have nothing to do with ID. And if you read the literature, there is massive justification for postulate #1 and nothing whatsoever for postulate #2. It pure ideology and power control. His specific words are: “The second postulate is the idea that signs, meanings and codes are natural entities. This sharply divides biosemiotics from the doctrine of ‘intelligent design’, and from all other doctrines that maintain that the origin of life on Earth was necessarily the product of a supernatural agency.” Anyone truly familiar with ID will immediately notice that this postulate lumps ID in with “other doctrines”, yet ID proper does not share any commitment to “supernatural entities”. That is not within its scope. Period. Yet, the deal is done nonetheless. It’s as if the academy will allow these biosemioticians to go ahead and think about symbols systems and such, and they can even have their separate conferences and their own separate journals – just as long as they keep it to themselves, and swear to God they won’t lend their support to ID. And so, the fix is in. Everybody is happy, and the truth is trampled upon. So on one side ID has the materialist ideologues who will go to no end to bias all discussion, and on the other side are the biosemioticians who are only too happy to watch their step if it means they are given a modicum of legitimacy - even if only among themselves. In the end, we have three groups: one has the science wrong and assumes its conclusion, the other has the science right but assumes its conclusion, and the third has the science right and is internally prohibited from any conclusions beyond the science itself. - - - - - - - - - - By the way, you can see the practical benefits (of maintaining this enforced separation) in the comments coming from TSZ. Keith is literally in a full blown tantrum, rocking back and forth in his seat and kicking his feet. He and Onlooker act as if I myself invented biosemiosis, which is an incoherent argument with absolutely no basis in material fact. It simply cannot be allowed. You’ll also notice how the frontline scientists and researchers I have approached (i.e. Moran, Matzke, etc) have refused to get into a debate with me about it. It’s a no winner for them, and they have something to protect. They sure as hell are not going to engage in a public argument over the meaning of words like “arbitrary” and “information”. That’s beneath them. They will leave that to the internet’s bottom feeders like Patrick and Keith, who are unencumbered by the thought of appearing completely irrational.Upright BiPed
September 12, 2012
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Upright BiPed (et al.), I just checked out The Skeptical Zone and see that keiths has posted an assortment of ways to make progress in this discussion. Since you seem disinclined to answer my questions, perhaps some of these alternatives will be of greater interest:
Upright, You’ve now been offered four distinct ways to correct your communication failures and get your argument across to your audience: 1. Look at my summary of your argument in the OP. If it’s accurate, tell us. If not, amend it while maintaining its concise and explicit format. 2. Answer onlooker’s questions, so onlooker can do the work for you and recast your argument in the same concise and explicit format that I used in the OP. 3. Get one of the “specialists” to do the work for you. You wrote: This argument has already been in front of specialists in relevant fields and not a single one of them asked me what I meant by anything I said. When I say that, I am not saying that I didn’t have to re-explain much, or not very much – I am saying I didn’t have to change a single word in order to be understood. It only took me a few minutes to come up with my summary. A “specialist” who understands your argument well should be able to do even better. 4. Get anyone else in the world to do the work for you (as long as they have better writing skills than you). According to you, onlooker is only pretending not to understand what you’re trying to say. If your accusation is true, there must be lots of people who do understand your argument. Pick one — any one, as long as he or she has better writing skills than you — and ask him or her to summarize your argument, using the concise and explicit format of the OP. A reminder: You claim to have a “Semiotic Theory of ID” that applies to the protein synthesis system. Your argument must therefore lead to the conclusion that the protein synthesis system is designed. If it doesn’t lead to that conclusion, then your argument fails to support the “Semiotic Theory of ID.” You’ve been whining about having to answer onlooker’s questions. Okay, if you don’t like answering onlooker’s questions, then pick one of the other three options above. Everyone is watching — and waiting. Will you deliver, or will you fail again?
I look forward to your response.onlooker
September 12, 2012
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Mung,
Upright BiPed:
A measured content of information is of no consequence here, only the material conditions of the transfer.
Sorry onlooker, I don’t believe I can make it any more clear than that.
I responded to that statement of Upright BiPed's by asking why, if measurement is of no consequence, he uses the word "measured" in his definition. Nothing in his statement clarifies what he actually means by the word "information". People who want their arguments to be understood define their terms clearly and answer questions to resolve confusion. Those who don't, don't.onlooker
September 12, 2012
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CR: I need to add to Mung, this, on the strawman fallacy (which, strictly speaking is a species of red herring -- a willfully introduced and sustained distractive irrelevancy . . . ), from the IEP fallacy page:
Your reasoning contains the straw man fallacy whenever you attribute an easily refuted position to your opponent, one that the opponent wouldn’t endorse, and then proceed to attack the easily refuted position (the straw man) believing you have undermined the opponent’s actual position. If the misrepresentation is on purpose, then the straw man fallacy is caused by lying. Example (a debate before the city council):
Opponent: Because of the killing and suffering of Indians that followed Columbus’s discovery of America, the City of Berkeley should declare that Columbus Day will no longer be observed in our city. Speaker: This is ridiculous, fellow members of the city council. It’s not true that everybody who ever came to America from another country somehow oppressed the Indians. I say we should continue to observe Columbus Day, and vote down this resolution that will make the City of Berkeley the laughing stock of the nation.
The speaker has twisted what his opponent said; the opponent never said, nor even indirectly suggested, that everybody who ever came to America from another country somehow oppressed the Indians. The critical thinker will respond to the fallacy by saying, “Let’s get back to the original issue of whether we have a good reason to discontinue observing Columbus Day.”
On points: 1 --> Now, CR, you have had ample opportunity to know that the issue of the relevance of induction to the design theory question is being considered in a context where Toronto suggested that inductive reasoning by inference to best current explanation is question-begging or arguing in a circle. 2 --> You further know or should know that it was pointed out to him that first, inductive arguments are now understood as arguments where evidence supports but does not demonstrate the claim being made, such that inference to best current explanation -- contrary to a claim made earlier -- is an inductive argument. 3 --> Where also, the competition across possible explanations and the choosing of a superior one across factual adequacy [including predictive power regarding new facts], coherence and explanatory simplicity as opposed to both simplisticness and ad hoc-ery, are material considerations as to whether a given argument is "best." IF, any given explanation is best. (That, too was explicitly pointed out as a "we may have to live with it" possibility.) 4 --> So, the false charge of question-begging falls to the ground, per this comparative process. 5 --> Similarly, you know or should know that the degree of warrant discussed is provisional, i.e. following Newton et al, it is understood that such reasoning is not ultimately demonstrative beyond possible correction. Thus, best CURRENT explanation. 6 --> Which superiority of warrant, moreover, is not assessed in any metric probability space, the issue is that we have that which is well warranted per the comparative process, and is empirically reliable; also, potentially actually true. (This is where scientific theories differ from models, which can be even ludicrously false so long as they deliver useful results in a zone of tested applicability, as the "Transistor man" model of the BJT in say Horowitz and Hill shows. So soon as a theory shows itself false, it is a model and/or empirically unreliable in that zone of falsity.) 7 --> In addition, per Avi Sion's apt summary, it has been highlighted that we live in a world that is known to exhibit strong patterns of predictable regularity [e.g the rising of the sun, the falling of objects under gravity, the breatheability of air, the friction we rely on to walk or drive, etc etc etc . . . ], regularities that can be summed up in models, hypothesised principles, empirical laws, and explanatory theories. 8 --> Thus, as he writes and as you have been repeatedly given but have ignored even as you pursue a tangential discussion across several threads:
We might . . . ask – can there be a world without any ‘uniformities’? A world of universal difference, with no two things the same in any respect whatever is unthinkable. Why? Because to so characterize the world would itself be an appeal to uniformity. A uniformly non-uniform world is a contradiction in terms. Therefore, we must admit some uniformity to exist in the world. The world need not be uniform throughout, for the principle of uniformity to apply. It suffices that some uniformity occurs. Given this degree of uniformity, however small, we logically can and must talk about generalization and particularization. There happens to be some ‘uniformities’; therefore, we have to take them into consideration in our construction of knowledge. The principle of uniformity is thus not a wacky notion, as Hume seems to imply . . . . The uniformity principle is not a generalization of generalization; it is not a statement guilty of circularity, as some critics contend. So what is it? Simply this: when we come upon some uniformity in our experience or thought, we may readily assume that uniformity to continue onward until and unless we find some evidence or reason that sets a limit to it. Why? Because in such case the assumption of uniformity already has a basis, whereas the contrary assumption of difference has not or not yet been found to have any. The generalization has some justification; whereas the particularization has none at all, it is an arbitrary assertion. It cannot be argued that we may equally assume the contrary assumption (i.e. the proposed particularization) on the basis that in past events of induction other contrary assumptions have turned out to be true (i.e. for which experiences or reasons have indeed been adduced) – for the simple reason that such a generalization from diverse past inductions is formally excluded by the fact that we know of many cases [[of inferred generalisations; try: "we can make mistakes in inductive generalisation . . . "] that have not been found worthy of particularization to date . . . . If we follow such sober inductive logic, devoid of irrational acts, we can be confident to have the best available conclusions in the present context of knowledge. We generalize when the facts allow it, and particularize when the facts necessitate it. We do not particularize out of context, or generalize against the evidence or when this would give rise to contradictions . . .[[Logical and Spiritual Reflections, BK I Hume's Problems with Induction, Ch 2 The principle of induction.]
9 --> So, the reasonable man will reckon with both our finitude and fallibility on the one hand, and the evident presence of reliable uniformities -- including in many cases where randomness itself follows regular patterns [e.g. Gaussian, Binomial and Weibull distributions etc] -- on the other. Hence the Newtonian premise that we accept general claims that have stood the test, subject not to unsupported contrary speculations but to correction in light of further evidence of observation and/or contradiction to known certainties, i.e. discovery of incoherence where the other claim is known true and/or of incoherence within the framework, it being accepted that A AND NOT_A is an absurdity and necessarily false. 10 --> In this context, well-grounded scientific knowledge claims are seen as fallible but well warranted per inference to best current explanation. That is, we have here a weak form knowledge claim, with provisionality but with confidence in empirical reliability and potential -- and in some cases morally certain -- truthfulness. (This last, meaning that one would be irresponsible to resume the balance of evidence and reliability as misleading such that one may freely assume the falsity and ignore the claim in decisions of significant import, e.g. a court case or a case of potential tort through negligence of duties of care.) 11 --> Now, the above may be many things, but it is not a naive inductivism or justificationism. You have set up and knocked over a strawman repeatedly, despite correction and even protest. Beyond a certain point, that sort of behaviour is not merely error but deceit. You are unfortunately, quite close to that threshold of willfully or insistently deceptive neglect of duties of care to accuracy and fairness. Continuing misrepresentation is a form of deceit. 12 --> Now, further, I have pointed out that in discussing actual scientific progress, Popper, whose flag you fly, has been forced to suggest a concept of corroboration. Where, well tested theories are seen as "corroborated." 13 --> This -- so far as I have gathered over the years since I first saw it -- is not seen as meaning "probably true" and assignable to some specific numerical or nominal and rankable degree of probability on some scale, but in effect as tested and found empirically reliable thus reasonable to take seriously until and unless later defeated by further evidence and/or logical argument. 14 --> So far as this has some merit, it is speaking of a kind and degree of warrant. Where I beg to differ is this: since we do live in a world full of highly reliable and in some cases morally certain inductively supported regularities and truths, there are also many cases where is IS possible to assign a position of degree of warrant on a nominal but ranked scale, or a numerical scale. 15 --> For instance, it is morally certain that we are mortal, and that the sun will rise on the morrow, that dropped heavy objects near earth fall at an initial acceleration of 9.8 N/kg, and that if such an object is a fair die, the probability of any of its six faces coming up when it settles, is 1/6. 16 --> Similarly, it may be seriously argued that it is well warranted that mechanical necessity, chance and/or intelligently directed choice and organising work are causal factors that we may see in action, much as when we look at the screen of an old fashioned analogue cathode ray oscilloscope we "see" an electron beam in action writing a trace across the screen. (In such a case it is silly pedantry to insist that we have never seen an electron and must treat it as an unsupported or dubious hypothesis. Tell that to the engineers who designed my personal favourite, trusty good old Tektronix 465 'scope. I contend -- on much support -- that much the same holds for the pretence that necessity, chance and choice are dubious when presented as causal factors.) 17 --> It is in that context that I have argued that in a lot of scientific work, we deal with things that we do not or even cannot directly observe. Electrons count. Stars count. The remote past of origins counts. 18 --> For centuries, scientists have investigated such things on traces coming from what we do not see, which are consistent with inferred best explanation causes and reliably observable characteristic effects we can more directly observe. 19 --> So, we for instance routinely infer the composition, surface temperatures and structure as well as likely life cycle position of remote stars from various analyses of apparent brightness, peak spectral wavelength, Fraunhoffer lines, etc. [Cf. here on for my discussion at 101 level.] 20 --> Likewise, we routinely accept inference to best explanation in light of characteristic signs, not only in looking at a deer track (cf. UD discussion here) but also in looking at signs of necessity in action [low contingency natural regularities in certain aspects of a system's behaviour -- a pendulum's swinging], chance based process [stochastically distributed contigencies -- Gaussian errors in observations] , and choice [e.g. functionally specific, complex organisation and/or information -- e.g. the text of this post]. 21 --> For telling instance, when we have a communication system and see a received apparent signal of some complexity that bears evident information, we routinely and reliably infer to intelligent message not mere lucky noise. Indeed, we actually use the diverse "signatures" of signals and noise to establish the key quality metric: signal to noise [power] ratio. 22 --> This is the context in which information is a relevant concept and observable-measurable phenomenon, manifest in how material objects and/or wave-based signals are modulated to carry intelligent messages, which may be in analogue waves or coded representations. 23 --> As UB has emphasised in the OP and in subsequent exchanges, such information is expressed using material representations, which manipulate forces and materials of nature intelligently. The screen on which you are most likely reading this post is a case in point, as are the various bits and pieces of electronics that back it up. 24 --> It is reasonable to infer from such FSCO/I, that intelligence was involved and that these entities manifest information, which is observable and measurable to the point where the bit is now a common unit and term in our culture. As Mung just reminded me, Nats and Hartleys didn't make it as these are less convenient, never mind that in the world of logarithms and math, base e logs are natural and base 10 Briggsian logs are -- actually, were -- overwhelmingly common. I guess the most common place to see base 10 logs in action these days is in decibel charts and log-log or log-linear plots. (Logs used to be so important that Gen Rommel memorised the log tables and used this to do all sorts of powerful analyses in his head. I don't know if this was required in the old Imperial German Army's cadet academies. I only happened on the case in a history book.) 25 --> So, we are now back on track: FSCO/I is a well warranted sign of intelligent action as a material causal factor. Indeed, it is a sign of intelligence. 26 --> So, the problem and challenge for those who object, is to actually show good evidence that FSCO/I can reasonably and routinely be produced by blind mechanical necessity and/or chance processes. 27 --> Plainly, the concept is not incoherent and equally plainly this test has not been met -- that is why we see so many weird and wonderful tangential debate tactics and talking points being used by objectors to design theory. 28 --> That itself speaks volumes. KFkairosfocus
September 12, 2012
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Question for Upright and others, why is none of this or any other research guided by ID principles, presented at mainstream science conferences?wateron1
September 11, 2012
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Red Herring Also Known as: Smoke Screen, Wild Goose Chase. Description of Red Herring A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form: Topic A is under discussion. Topic B is introduced under the guise of being relevant to topic A (when topic B is actually not relevant to topic A). Topic A is abandoned. This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because merely changing the topic of discussion hardly counts as an argument against a claim. The Red Herring Yes indeed, what do we do with the red herring? Topic B is introduced (How exactly can information be measured?) under the guise of being relevant to topic A (I need to understand everything that can possibly be known about information in order to grasp your argument) when topic B is actually not relevant to topic A. That's right. Irrelevant. Topic A in this case is whether information can be transmitted in a material system (a material universe) without a material representation (without using a representation instantiated in matter). Information was transmitted for thousands of years before Claude Shannon ever came along and defined a measure. http://www.amazon.com/dp/1400096235Mung
September 11, 2012
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From the OP:
1. A representation is an arrangement of matter which evokes an effect within a system
I see the letter 'A' appear on my computer screen. That's the effect. Letter 'A' appears on screen. Some arrangement of matter presumably brought about that effect. The arrangement of matter which brought about that effect we call a representation. Good so far? Could some other arrangement of matter within the system have brought about that same effect?
2. It is not logically possible to transfer information in a material universe without using a representation instantiated in matter.
I press the key on my keyboard that is displaying the 'A' symbol. An 'a' appears on my computer screen. That constitutes a transfer of information. It is not logically possible that the representation which evoked the effect of the 'a' on my screen as a result of the pressing of the 'A' key on my keyboard is immaterial. I honestly don't see the difficulty people claim to have with this argument. Are they of a mind that immaterial entities can bring about physical effects in a material system without bringing about an arrangement of matter? onlooker:
But how exactly can information be measured?
Relevance, please. Are you claiming that if we cannot measure the amount of information transmitted that we cannot know that any information was transmitted at all? You assert that if you press the letter 'A' on your keyboard and the letter 'a' appears on your screen that this either does not involve a transfer of information or that you cannot be sure that it does? onlooker:
- Does information, by your definition, have standard units?
Relevance, please. Where did Upright BiPed define "information"? onlooker:
Does your definition correspond to any standard definitions?
I guess that answers my previous question. Do you have any reason whatsoever to believe that Upright BiPed means, by his use of the term information, anything other than what is commonly understood by the term and available from any standard dictionary?Mung
September 11, 2012
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Haven't heard of Nats and Hartleys in a LOONG time!kairosfocus
September 11, 2012
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So petrushka and toronto prove that they do not understand the English language nor science, and Allan Miller chimes in with his special pleading- "The OoL and the first living organisms didn't need no steenking proteins to make proteins- the RNA world, blah, blah, blibbidy-blibbidy,blah" Well Allan blind and undirected chemical processes have yet to be demonstrated to provide a RNA world AND the RNA world has never been demonstrated to give rise to something else- oh and the RNA world hasn't even been demonstrated to exist. So if imagination were evidence, you would have a point...Joe
September 11, 2012
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Bits, Nats, and HartleysMung
September 11, 2012
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F/N: before I head off, let me remind all of the clip from Newton in Opticks Query 31 (1704), where the inductive approach to scientific method was laid out long before this exchange and which has been sitting in the IOSE appendix on methods all along. I think I have even clipped it before: _____________ >> As in Mathematicks, so in Natural Philosophy, the Investigation of difficult Things by the Method of Analysis, ought ever to precede the Method of Composition. This Analysis consists in making Experiments and Observations, and in drawing general Conclusions from them by Induction, and admitting of no Objections against the Conclusions, but such as are taken from Experiments, or other certain Truths. For [speculative] Hypotheses are not to be regarded in experimental Philosophy. And although the arguing from Experiments and Observations by Induction be no Demonstration of general Conclusions; yet it is the best way of arguing which the Nature of Things admits of, and may be looked upon as so much the stronger, by how much the Induction is more general. And if no Exception occur from Phaenomena, the Conclusion may be pronounced generally. But if at any time afterwards any Exception shall occur from Experiments, it may then begin to be pronounced with such Exceptions as occur. By this way of Analysis we may proceed from Compounds to Ingredients, and from Motions to the Forces producing them; and in general, from Effects to their Causes, and from particular Causes to more general ones, till the Argument end in the most general. This is the Method of Analysis: And the Synthesis consists in assuming the Causes discover'd, and establish'd as Principles, and by them explaining the Phaenomena proceeding from them, and proving the Explanations. [[Emphases added.] >> _____________ The strawmannisation of inductive thought in science, should be plain to anyone looking on with an open mind. Plainly, Newton held that inductive methods yielded potentially true conclusions but not conclusions demonstrated beyond correction. And Locke, writing at roughly the same time, was quite similar, making the comment that we have no excuse to protest that we have not bright sunlight, if we have candle light, echoing BTW, Prov 20:27. This, too I have cited. And I have noted how ever since Godel, even deductive systems are left less than beyond all doubt. Also, that in science we not only have theory refinement but theory replacement. When it comes to Popper the critical issue remains the need to account for why stick with corroborated theories, which is in my opinion tantamount to the same basic concept of inference to best current empirically tested and reasonably reliable explanation. So -- sadly -- there is no responsiveness on CR's part, to the evidence and actual argument put forward ever since Newton et al, only the putting up and knocking over of a strawman caricature. And also, it looks like all of this grand exercise on methods and the credibility of inductive reasoning -- yes that is what is being challenged -- is a distraction. For in the end we are back at best current provisional and empirically reliable explanation. Bottomline, there is by implication of evasion no real solid objection on the merits to informed design inference based thinking so the objections have majored on distractions and abstruse speculations on whether or not inductive reasoning is reasonable. KFkairosfocus
September 11, 2012
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UB: Which of the material observations is false? CR: Which assumes it’s possible to extrapolate observations without first putting them into an explanatory framework. So place the observations into the explanatory framework of your choice and answer the question.Mung
September 11, 2012
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UB: Which of the material observations is false? Which assumes it's possible to extrapolate observations without first putting them into an explanatory framework. This is yet another false assumption of inductivism… From a comment contrasting Critical Rationalism and Inductivism on another thread..
Inductivism - We start out with observations - We then use those observations to devise a theory - We then test those observations with additional observations to confirm the theory or make it more probable However, theories do not follow from evidence. At all. Scientific theories explain the seen using the seen. And the unseen doesn’t “resemble” the seen any more than falling apples and orbiting planets resemble the curvature of space-time. Are dinosaurs merely an interpretation of our best explanation of fossils? Or are they *the* explanation for fossils? After all, there are an infinite number of rival interpretations that accept the same empirical observations, yet suggest that dinosaurs never existed millions of years ago. For example, there is the rival interpretation that fossils only come into existence when they are consciously observed. Therefore, fossils are no older than human beings. As such, they are not evidence of dinosaurs, but evidence of acts of those particular observations. Another interpretation would be that dinosaurs are such weird animals that conventional logic simply doesn’t apply to them. One could suggests It’s meaningless to ask if dinosaurs were real or just a useful fiction to explain fossils – which is an example of instrumentalism. Not to mention the rival interpretation that an abstract designer with no limitations chose to create the world we observe 30 days ago. Therefore, dinosaurs couldn’t be the explanation for fossils because they didn’t exist at the time. Yet, we do not say that dinosaurs are merely an interpretation of our best explanation of fossils, they *are* the explanation for fossils. And this explanation is primarily about dinosaurs, not fossils. So, it’s in this sense that science isn’t primarily about “things you can see”. (I’d also note that the above “rival interpretations” represent general-purpose ways of denying anything, but I’ll save that for another comment.)
This is why I keep pointing out the flaws in Inductivism. Justificationism is simply impossible. But, by all means, feel free to present a "principle of induction" that actually works in practice. All I've seen so far is claims that "everyone knows induction works" or "everyone uses it, so it must be true", along with common misconceptions, which doesn't refute Popper's criticism. Show me how you can justify whatever it is you use to justify something, etc. Furthermore, it's apparent that many here are not actually familiar with Popper's criticism or hold significant misconceptions. For example, KF wrote…
CR objects to the basic definition that knowledge is well warranted, credibly true belief. He sees such as a naive justificationism that especially on matters of experience leads to knowledge claims based on induction which in his view is never justified. This is a spin off Popper. He is apparently unable to accept that from Newton and Locke et al on, we have a clear understanding of scientific knowledge as provisional, and warranted on induction where by evidence provides reasonable and often substantial support but not ultimate and unquestionable proof. Hence some of my remarks just above. KF
Yet this is clearly at odd with Popper's Critical Rationalism. Nor does "we have a clear understanding of scientific knowledge as provisional, and warranted on induction" refute Popper's criticism.
Critical rationalism rejects the classical position that knowledge is justified true belief; it instead holds the exact opposite: That, in general, knowledge is unjustified untrue unbelief. It is unjustified because of the non-existence of good reasons. It is untrue, because it usually contains errors that sometimes remain unnoticed for hundreds of years. And it is not belief either, because scientific knowledge, or the knowledge needed to build a plane, is contained in no single person's mind. It is only available as the content of books.
Which brings me back to my original criticism. The argument is parochial in that it ignores other forms of epistemology and assumes all theories should be reductive in nature. You might not "like" or "believe" in the alternatives, but that is irrelevant to my criticism. Again, it's as if you simply cannot recognize your conception of human knowledge as an idea that would be subject to criticism. Rather, you uncritically assume it is true.critical rationalist
September 11, 2012
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And another round of ignorance:
Yes, with a “specification” of the “functionality” required *before* I started designing, unlike ID, which assigns “specific functionality” after the “design” is in operation.
We do it just as archaeologists and forensics do it. Ya see toronto, we could not have known the specs beforehand because we were NOT the designer. WE can only look at the design and attempt to deduce the spec. And obvioulsy your position has nothing because you are reduced to spewing your ignorance- well that is all you do anyway...Joe
September 11, 2012
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How the Game is Played. Read an OP. Pretend to not understand the terms. Ask for definitions of the terms. Ask for clarifications of the definitions. Dispute at every turn. Assert you're just seeking clarity. Amend the terms and ask if the amended term is what the author really meant to say all along. When asked to supply your own definitions of the terms, claim your own definitions and understanding of the terms are irrelevant. Why is it so important to avoid stating your own understanding of the terms? 1. People would be able to see that your understanding is no different than the way the term is being used, exposing the real intent of your pretended lack of understanding. 2. The author of the OP would be able to amend your terms to bring clarity (which is the last thing you really want). 3. You know you're just playing a game, and don't want the game to be turned against you. There's no one watching this thread that doesn't see exactly what is going on. Perhaps onlooker is a sock puppet. But he also may jst be the most recent graduate from The School of Intellectual Dishonesty.Mung
September 11, 2012
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oops: A mechanism is a a process, technique, or system for achieving a result- Design is to create, fashion, execute, or construct according to plan. A plan is a process, technique, or system for achieving a result. Therefor design is a mechanism. It is a very simple and basic thing to understand. As a matter of fact the only people who don't think that design is a mechansim are uneducated people. All of that is in the dictionaries toronto...Joe
September 11, 2012
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