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UB Sets It Out Step-By-Step

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UD Editors:  No one has come close to refuting UB’s thesis after 129 comments.  We are moving this post to the top of the page to give the materialists another chance.

I take the following from an excellent comment UB made in a prior post.  UB lays out his argument step by step, precept by precept.  Then he arrives at a conclusion.  In order for his argument to be valid, the conclusion must follow from the premises.  In order for his argument to be sound, each of the premises must be true.

Now here is the challenge to our Darwinist friends.  If you disagree with UB’s conclusion, please demonstrate how his argument is either invalid (as a matter of logic the conclusion does not follow from the premises) or unsound (one or more of the premises are false).  Good luck (you’re going to need it).

Without further ado, here is UB’s argument:

1.  A representation is an arrangement of matter which evokes an effect within a system (e.g. written text, spoken words, pheromones, animal gestures, codes, sensory input, intracellular messengers, nucleotide sequences, etc, etc).

2.  It is not logically possible to transfer information (the form of a thing; a measured aspect, quality, or preference) in a material universe without using a representation instantiated in matter.

3.  If that is true, and it surely must be, then several other things must logically follow. If there is now an arrangement of matter which contains a representation of form as a consequence of its own material arrangement, then that arrangement must be necessarily arbitrary to the thing it represents. In other words, if one thing is to represent another thing within a system, then it must be separate from the thing it represents. And if it is separate from it, then it cannot be anything but materially arbitrary to it (i.e. they cannot be the same thing).

4.  If that is true, then the presence of that representation must present a material component to the system (which is reducible to physical law), while its arrangement presents an arbitrary component to the system (which is not reducible to physical law).

5.  If that is true, and again it surely must be, then there has to be something else which establishes the otherwise non-existent relationship between the representation and the effect it evokes within the system. In fact, this is the material basis of Francis Crick’s famous ‘adapter hypothesis’ in DNA, which lead to a revolution in the biological sciences. In a material universe, that something else must be a second arrangement of matter; coordinated to the first arrangement as well as to the effect it evokes.

6.  It then also follows that this second arrangement must produce its unambiguous function, not from the mere presence of the representation, but from its arrangement.  It is the arbitrary component of the representation which produces the function.

7.  And if those observations are true, then in order to actually transfer recorded information, two discrete arrangements of matter are inherently required by the process; and both of these objects must necessarily have a quality that extends beyond their mere material make-up. The first is a representation and the second is a protocol (a systematic, operational rule instantiated in matter) and together they function as a formal system. They are the irreducible complex core which is fundamentally required in order to transfer recorded information.

8.  During protein synthesis, a selected portion of DNA is first transcribed into mRNA, then matured and transported to the site of translation within the ribosome. This transcription process facilitates the input of information (the arbitrary component of the DNA sequence) into the system. The input of this arbitrary component functions to constrain the output, producing the polypeptides which demonstrate unambiguous function.

9.  From a causal standpoint, the arbitrary component of DNA is transcribed to mRNA, and those mRNA are then used to order tRNA molecules within the ribosome. Each stage of this transcription process is determined by the physical forces of pair bonding. Yet, which amino acid appears at the peptide binding site is not determined by pair bonding; it is determined  by the aaRS. In other words, which amino acid appears at the binding site is only evoked by the physical structure of the nucleic triplet, but is not determined by it. Instead, it is determined (in spatial and temporal isolation) by the physical structure of the aaRS. This is the point of translation; the point where the arbitrary component of the representation is allowed to evoke a response in a physically determined system – while preserving the arbitrary nature of the representation.

10.  This physical event, translation by a material protocol, as well as the transcription of a material representation, is ubiquitous in the transfer of recorded information.

CONCLUSION:  These two physical objects (the representation and protocol) along with the required preservation of the arbitrary component of the representation, and the production of unambiguous function from that arbitrary component, confirm that the transfer of recorded information in the genome is just like any other form of recorded information. It’s an arbitrary relationship instantiated in matter.

Comments
CR:
Onlooker is (and reasonably so) refusing to move forward until clear definitions are provided.
And yet when onlooker was faced with actually discussing definitions, onlooker, quite unreasonably, declined. onlooker:
My definitions are immaterial and will not help me achieve the goal of understanding his.
One can only hope that you, CR, are not taking the same attitude towards definitions and mutual understanding. How can his/her/its definition of a term be immaterial to understanding? If Upright BiPed defines horse as: "an odd-toed ungulate mammal belonging to the taxonomic family Equidae." And onlooker defines horse as: "having a vocal tone characterized by weakness of intensity and excessive breathiness" Surely one can question whether the two of them are even talking about the same thing. What reasonable person would blindly accept onlooker's assertion that his definition of horse is immaterial?Mung
September 9, 2012
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Mung: Actually, T, G, C and A are themselves representations. Representations of what? And are they representations in the same sense as "TGCA" are representations of the actual bases T, G, C, A? If not, in what sense are they representations? Furthermore, whatever it is that T, G, C, A themselves supposedly represent, do they represent something else? And does this something else also represent something else as well, etc.?critical rationalist
September 9, 2012
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I'd point out that Onlooker and I have taken different approaches to criticizing UB's argument. Onlooker is (and reasonably so) refusing to move forward until clear definitions are provided. On the other hand, I'm asking for and conjecturing the *consequences* of UB's argument in attempt to deduce them. Specifically, the consequences his argument would have for evolutionary theory, conceptions of knowledge, etc., then pointing out the implicit assumptions they would make. Yet, in both cases, it seems that UB isn't actually responding to criticism.critical rationalist
September 9, 2012
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UB: CR, you didn’t answer Mung’s questions. CR: …the knowledge of how to create biological adaptations is genuinely created. Mung: “Stored where?”
What do I mean by “knowledge”? I’m referring to information which when embedded in a storage medium tends to remain there and is consistent with Karl Popper’s definition that knowledge is independent of anyone’s belief. While they serve many other purposes as well, both brains and DNA act as storage mediums.
The non-explanatory knowledge of how to adapt matter into tRNA is stored in specific regions of the genome. Mung: “Transmitted how?” Through the creation of a series of knowledge laden processes which allow us to scan the genome, encode it, transmit it in some agreed on form, and then reverse the process. For example, the knowledge of how to build computers is created. Systems are constructed and are sent to different locations. We can say the same regarding network hardware, scanners, storage systems, etc. They are then connected and the transfer occurs. Since different hardware designs can implement the same standard, you do not need exact duplicate systems on both ends. For example, one could scan and encode the genome of Mycoplasma mycoides, transmit it to some other computer, then synthesize it unchanged based on the techniques developed by Craig Ventier's group. Note: these are high-level explanations, that address the emergence of knowledge from material arrangements of matter.critical rationalist
September 9, 2012
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CR:
All of my examples were representations of the actual base pairs TGCA, which are arrangements of matter.
Actually, T, G, C and A are themselves representations. One might even say they are representations of representations. Which, I guess, makes your examples representations of representations of representations. Now, what makes you think that all representations are transitive and that a representation can be substituted for what it represents to the same effect?Mung
September 9, 2012
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CR:
IOW, it’s unclear how the information from quasars can get “transferred” into our brains, let alone grow more accurate, via inductivism. Yet, there it is.
Quasars are sending us information? About what? Their favorite color?Mung
September 9, 2012
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CR:
What is information? What does it mean to transfer it?
How and why are you posting here at UD?Mung
September 9, 2012
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onlooker:
I am interested in understanding Upright BiPed’s argument detailed in the original post to this thread. I have questions that prevent me from understanding it. Why do you think it is unreasonable to ask for clarification? If you feel that the argument as stated is perfectly clear, I invite you to answer the questions I have posed to Upright BiPed. If you can add some clarity and Upright BiPed agrees with your clarifications, we might be able to make progress more quickly.
I see now that was just so much hooey on your part. You don't want to understand. You don't even want to try to understand.
I strongly recommend Ray Dalio’s principles as an explanation of the importance of brutal honesty and direct communication in order to root out flaws in our own opinions.
Let me know when you want to start being honest. I posted in good faith. You didn't even attempt to engage in an ongoing dialog. I should read a 123 page treatise to try to figure out why? No chance in hell. You're no more open to honest discussion that was Liddle when she showed up here. Let's not forget, you were the one who invited me to attempt to assist in in bridging the gap between you and Upright BiPed. here
My definitions are immaterial and will not help me achieve the goal of understanding his.
And that's just a flat out lie. If Liddle was in fact banned from UD it's probably due to similar behavior. Actual actions inconsistent with stated intent. Dishonesty. Your understanding of terms is of utmost relevance, by your own admission. Yet now you say what you think a term means is immaterial. ARE YOU SERIOUS!? I guess not. Remember, I am a third party here. You don't understand what UPB means by representation? Well, what do you think the term means. Maybe you two are closer to agreement than you think. But you'd rather not say what you think it means. You don't understand what UPB means by information? Well, what do you think the term means. Maybe you two are closer to agreement than you think. But you'd rather not say what you think it means. Rejoice. You've exposed yourself for all to see. Let me know if you want to try again. Otherwise please stop wasting our time. You're turning out to be no better than a troll. You have an idea of what information is, otherwise you would not be posting here on UD and asking questions. You probably have some idea what is involved in the transmission of information over the internet as well. The fact that you won't even acknowledge the relevance of my questions to the current debate is telling indeed.Mung
September 9, 2012
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And in a show of total confusion petrushkas sez:
we have spotted him the semiotic part. Now he needs to prove a negative. That the system could not have evolved. That’s the ID movement in a nutshell. The assertion that you can prove a negative by thinking or reasoning about it.
So Upright Biped needs to provide evidence for YOUR position? The point is, petrushka, there isn't any positive evidence in support of the premise that blind and undirected processes can produce semiotic systems. There doesn't even appear to be a testable hypothesis for such a thing. Also ALL design inferences are forced to eliminate nature, operating freely, BEFORE they can say design. That is the very nature of Newton's four rules of scientific investigation. IOW all you guys have to do is step up and demonstrate that blind and undirected processes ae up to the task and Upright Biped's argument no longer suports ID. The PROBLEM, however, is you won't ever do so.Joe
September 9, 2012
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That is why Mung’s Q 5 above is so apt: “Attempt to relate the activities you are engaged in and the processes that must take place when you post here on UD to the above questions.”
Thanks KF!Mung
September 9, 2012
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keiths is still spewing:
Anyone out there who actually understands Upright’s argument: Please present it clearly, concisely and explicitly, using the style I employed in the OP, either here or at UD.
Again, why is it that only the anti-IDists, who claim they are smarter than us IDiots, cannot understand Upright Biped's argument? Is keiths really admitting that he is dumber than us IDiots? Strange that evos cannot communicate the argument for their position in a clear, non-equivocating way. And all they can do is obfuscate whenever an IDist steps forward and clearly communicates the argument for ID.Joe
September 9, 2012
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Why is the same explanation for the origin of a rock found in a field insufficient for the origin of a watch?
Rocks can be reduced to matter and energy, watches cannot. Watches require something other than matter and energy to explain their existence. Ribosomes are not reducible to matter and energy, they, like watches, cars and computers, although not in violation of any physical laws are not explained by them. Unfortunately for CR darwinism cannot explain tRNA, mRNA, tRNA ligases nor genes with knowledge…
Why is that Joe?
The main reason is there isn't any evidentiary supprt for darwinism producing them. No testable hypothesis for the premise.
DNA evolved from primitive replicators which gradually included better error checking.
Evidence please.Joe
September 9, 2012
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Kairosfocus, I am not sure they even understand English, let alone adress your points....Joe
September 9, 2012
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CR, you didn't answer Mung's questions. "Stored where?" "Transmitted how?"Upright BiPed
September 9, 2012
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@mung#267 CR:…the knowledge of how to create biological adaptations is genuinely created. Mung:
Created by who or what? And stored where? And transmitted how?
See comment #302.
And what is a non-genuine creation?
All bad explanations for the biosphere either fail to explain how the knowledge in adaptations is created or attempt to do so badly. Specifically, they all discount the role that knowledge plays in the creation of biosphere. The worst offender is, ironically, creationism. For example, If a supernatural being created the world we observe at the moment that Darwin (appeared) to have made his greatest discovery, the true creator of that discovery would not have been Darwin but that supernatural being. And we can say the same regarding all earlier discoveries as well. Such a theory denies the only creation that did actually take place in the origin of the designer's discovery. This is a form of genuine creation, which is possible due to emergent levels of explanation. So, Creationism is misleading named. It is not a theory explaining knowledge as arising due to creation, but the exact opposite. It denies that creation happened in reality by placing the origin of that knowledge in an explanationless realm. Creationism is a general purpose means of creation denial. For example, one could appeal to the logical possibility that some intelligent designer with no defined limitations created the world when you (appeared) to have authored the comment I'm responding to. Therefore, the author of the comment wouldn't be you, but that abstract designer. The very idea of an open-ended stream of genuine knowledge creation conflicts with creationism by undermining its motivation. Potentially, at some time in the future, anyone will be able to design and implement a more harmonious, moral, complex biosphere than the one here on Earth. And they will do assisted by massively powerful computers created using this same open-ended stream of knowledge creation. At which point, the suppled designer of our biosphere will appear morally deficient and intellectually unremarkable. This leads me to a question: If you were sent forward in time and observed a demonstration of such a biosphere, would you still be a design proponent? Of course, there is always the chance that we will choose not to create the necessary knowledge in time and eventually go extinct as a species. But the potential is there. For example Mitt Romney thinks man made global warming is real, yet his position is it would be wrong to do anything about it. This too discounts the role that knowledge plays in the creation of the biosphere. Mung:
And what’s required to get to the point where biological adaptations are even possible?
In the same way that systems can be digital despite taking different forms, such as cogs or transistors, digital systems can have different degrees of error correction. Even the slightest degree of improvement can make a difference. DNA evolved from primitive replicators which gradually included better error checking. DNA stopped evolving once it make the leap to universality - the ability to encode instructions for all forms of life on our planet, including those that wouldn't exist for billions of years, along with those that do not yet exist. Mung:
What is an adaptation, after all?
From a comment on another thread...
It was William Paley who noted some objects not only can serve a purpose but there are objects which are *adapted* to a purpose. For example, if you slightly altered the design of a watch (or a microscope) it would serve the purpose of keeping time (or magnifying samples) less well, or not even at all. On the other hand, we can use the sun to keep time, even though it would serve that purpose equally well if its features were slightly or even massively modified. Just as we adapt the earth’s raw materials to serve a purpose, we also find uses for the sun it was never design or adapted to provided. So, merely being useful for a purpose, without being hard to vary and retaining that ability, does not reflect the appearance of design. IOW, good designs are hard to vary. This is a reflection of our long chain of independent, hard to vary explanations for how microscopes work. Adaptations represent transformations of matter. In the case of a microscope, raw materials are adapted into glass and metal, which are adapted into lenses, gears and frames. These components are adapted into a particular configuration in a particular order. If you varied these adaptations slightly the microscope would not serve the purpose of magnifying samples as well, or not even at all.
These transformation occur with the requisite knowledge of how to preform them is present.critical rationalist
September 9, 2012
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PS: Joe, any sign of a serious response to my syllabus of 18 questions?kairosfocus
September 9, 2012
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Joe: It would be amusing to see the flailing around at TSZ, if it were not in the end ever so sad. What is plain is that they don't seem to realise that he design inference is working the same way that their own attempts to reconstruct the past of life do, only on better empirical warrant. For, we do routinely see designers creating FSCO/I but have never seen blind chance and mechanical necessity doing that through accumulated accidents. And, we know that there is a major gap for the solar system or the cosmos to have enough atomic and temporal resources even in 13.7 bn y, to search sufficient of the config space of 500 or 1,000 bits, that even 500 or 1000 bits could be reasonably seen as coming up by blind processes, per sampling theory. The only thing that is reasonably warranted on such processes would be sampling the bulk of possibilities, which would not be functional. In short, it is clear that we are dealing with ideology, not scientific rationality. CR: Re: Take a piece of paper and write the letters “TGCA” on it. […] Now, replace the actual base pairs “TGAC” in an organism’s genome with any of the above. Do you end up with the same effect? You know better than this, You know tha t the genetic code works off D/RNA bases and that information is coded in their sequence. This is easily accessible and has been presented to you any number of times. In addition, the AA's loaded on the tRNA's that key to the mRNA codons, are loaded on a standard CCA end. They are INFORMATIONALLY loaded based on the config of the particular tRNA, by special loading enzymes. That is the connexion between the codon triplet and the AA added to the protein chain is informational not driven by deterministic chemical forces. But it is evident that the facts do not point where you will so you are setting up and knocking over strawmen. This is even worse, and condescending as well:
it is also parochial in that it implicitly includes the idea that knowledge / information must be justified by some ultimate source. How do you justify whatever arbiter defines this relationship? And how do you justify that, etc? Will you respond with a serious question this time?
In effect5 you grudgingly imply that you cannot provide an actual case of coded, functionally specific information of 500 + bits coming about by known forces of chance and necessity without intelligent direction. That is obvious for if you had a case you would not be going into such convolutions but would triumphantly trot it out. But the Canali on mars failed, Weasel failed, GA's failed, and the Youtube vid on how a clock could evolve from gears and pendulums failed too, etc. So you cannot bring forth an actual case to make your point. To brazen it out, you want to demand the right to suggest without evidence that chance and necessity can and do on the gamut of accessible resources, create FSCO/I. Sorry, a demonstrated source -- design -- is an obviously superior explanation to something that has no such base. FYI, there is no question-begging circle on what "must" be the source of knowledge, codes, intelligent messages etc, WE HAVE OBSERVATIONS, abundant and unexceptioned observations, that show that FSCO/I comes from design. So, you ate going up against an empirically abundantly justified induction. And your trick is to assert question-begging. Sorry, FAIL. It seems unlikely that you will acknowledge error and amend your thinking, but the genuine onlookers can see for themselves what is going on. KFkairosfocus
September 9, 2012
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Onlooker:
Your 282 is completely non-responsive to the questions I raised about the definitions an logic of your argument.
Let's not lose sight of your question. You asked about my use of the word arbitrary, remember? My argument states there is a 'materially arbitrary relationship' between a) an arrangement of matter and b) the effect it evokes within a system. Your question was what I meant by the word “arbitrary”. You asked if it simply means “separate” or something else as well. In the course of your comments, you correctly wrote: “It is not logically possible to transfer information without using an arrangement of matter which evokes an effect within a system". You conceptualized this sentence, and in doing so you clearly identify both the arrangement of matter and its effect. So I picked up exactly where you left off. I asked you to envision putting that arrangement of matter in your shirt pocket until tomorrow, when you will then take it out and use it to evoke its effect. My question was simply if you thought it was possible that the effect - which won't even exist until tomorrow - could also be what is in your pocket today? Or are they necessarily not the same thing? I even added that the effect - which won't even come into existence until tomorrow - will contain nothing whatsoever that is in your pocket today. But still you refuse to answer. Having refused to answer a simple question, you now claim that by using this example, I am being "non-responsive" to your question. The reasons for your claim are certainly not obvious, particularly since giving examples is virtually synonymous with giving an explanation, yet you offer no reasoning whatsoever. And given that this is the third time you've declined to answer the question (and participate in understanding the issue), I can correctly assume your interests lie elsewhere. The truth of the matter is rather obvious. You won't answer this simple question because for you to openly admit that nothing exist between these two items except for a relationship, is to give away your ideological farm. The entire remainder of my argument necessarily follows from this simple observation, so consequently, you must not allow it. In the face of a question so simple that a child could answer, you are left with nothing but the adolescent deception that you don't understand the words. And all the while, you vent your spleen with ad hominem attacks. Your rhetorical victory is at hand, and you are welcome to it.Upright BiPed
September 9, 2012
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Joe: Unfortunately for CR darwinism cannot explain tRNA, mRNA, tRNA ligases nor genes with knowledge… Why is that Joe? Could it be that you think all knowledge is justified by authoritative sources? Perhaps you will answer the question I asked UB?
For example, from another comment on another thread…
Specifically, the fundamental flaw in creationism (and its variants) is the same fundamental flaw in pre-enlightenment, authoritative conceptions of human knowledge: its account of how the knowledge in adaptations could be created is either missing, supernatural or illogical. In some cases, it’s the very same theory, in that specific types of knowledge, such as cosmology or moral knowledge, was dictated to early humans by supernatural beings. In other cases, parochial aspects of society, such as the rule of monarchs in governments or the existence of God, are protected by taboos or taken so uncritically for granted that they are not recognized as ideas.
While empiricism is an improvement it still depends on inductivism, so it still shares the same fundamental flaw. Is there something in the above you disagree with? Better yet, wouldn’t such a conception explain objections to Darwinism? And not just any objections, but specific objections that we see here and elsewhere? If someone thought the knowledge of how to build the biosphere could only come from some ultimate authoritative source, would it come as a surprise they would conclud the biosphere cannot be explained without a designer? And if Darwinism were true would, would they not then conclude there could be no knowledge? Everything would simply be meaningless and random and astronomically unlikely, which is a commonly argued strawman of evolutionary theory. Finally, since everything is not random and meaningless, would they not conclude Darwinism must be false? I don’t know about you, but this sounds vaguely familiar.
Does your conception of human knowledge conflict with the above? If so, exactly where did I get it wrong and how do your views differ, in detail?critical rationalist
September 9, 2012
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CR: I’m pointing out that your first premise is a contradiction. Joe: You need to do a better job than just saying so.
I didn't "just say so", I present an argument.
CR: In other words, it’s not necessary for [genetics] to be [reducible] to law for us to explain the concrete biological complexity we observe. Joe: Where did I say it had to be?
Then why do we see some concrete adaptations, instead of other concrete adaptations? Why do they exhibit the specific constraints we observe? How do you explain it?
CR: Are you suggesting the appearance of design cannot be explained? Joe: Where did I suggest that?
you wrote:
Joe: And BTW, ID does not try to answer the “why”. ID tries to answer the question “how did it come to be this way?” ie by design or not.
Why doesn't it? Why do you think artificial ribosomes do not work? Is design some irreducible primitive that cannot be further explained?
CR: What is the appearance of design? Joe: Something that appears designed.
It's unclear why I should even bother responding if you are not going to give a serious answer. What *constitutes* the appearance of design? Why is the same explanation for the origin of a rock found in a field insufficient for the origin of a watch? Is that clear enough for you?critical rationalist
September 9, 2012
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UB: If I did that, would the letters I write exist as rate-dependent structures that can be explained by physcial law, or are they rate-indepedent structures that can only be explained by a relationship established within physical system? History is filled with leaps to universality in evolving systems. These leaps occurred despite indifference to the goal of actually reaching universality. Number and writing systems are just a few examples. Another example is the capacity for any universal computer to simulate any other universal computer. This leap occurs whenever the capacity to perform the necessary repertoire of computations are present in digital systems. This includes using electric switches that can either be on or off, or even cogs that can be in one of 10 possible positions. The purpose of Babbage's Difference Engine, along with all of the stepwise improvements before it, was parochial: to automate laborious calculations, such as those used in engineering, navigation, etc., of which Human computers were notoriously error prone. As such, they only a very implemented a limited repertoire of computations. However Babbage, among others, eventually realized the leap to universality was possible. Had he actually managed to implement his, the Analytic Engine, it would have been the first Universal Turing Machine (UTM). How is this important? Despite being constructed from gears and cogs, Babbage's machine would have been shared the same universality as even modern day universal computers. This includes the ability to run other program that it can, in principle. While this would be impractical due to the vast difference in processing speed and the staggering number of punch cards necessary to store and execute them, this represents a leap to universality in that the behavior of any finite physical object (including some other universal computer) can be simulated with any desired accuracy by another universal computer. Furthermore, all digital computers represent information as discrete physical values. This is in contrast to analogy computers which represents information as variable physical values. The reason why we hardly use analog computers today is because there is no such thing as a universal analog computer. Digital systems can be programed to emulate any of them and outperform them in nearly every application. In addition, computational systems require error correction. Without it, errors would build up in lengthly computations due to variances of component imprecations, temperature changes, random outside influences, etc. Analog computers would diverge so far off the intended path that the results would cease to be remotely useful. The key point here being that knowledge is created by error correcting systems. This includes digital systems for storing that knowledge and operating on it. Analog systems are bound by the above limitations. A replicator is a unit of information which content plays a causal role in whether or not it is copied. When imperfectly copied with some finite probability variants of that replicator will arise. Some will managed to copy themselves. Others will not. New variants might exhibit the ability to copy itself better in the same environment than the original. Or it might exhibit the ability to copy itself better in a new environment. As such, variants of replicators can become better adapted. DNA is also digital in that it stores information as discrete physical values, which allows for error correction. Furthermore, error correction is the means by which the knowledge of how to build adaptations, which is found in the genome, is created. Replicators arise in biology, such as in the information found in germ line cells or the DNA / RNA of viruses. These replicators are called genes. Genes undergo mutation that is random to any specific problem being solved, which produces new variants. Some variants may exhibit the ability to copy themselves better than the original in the current environment. Others may exhibit the ability to copy themselves in a different environment where the original could not. This process can result in different variants to become greatly different over time, resulting in the rise of new species. So, the underlying explanation behind Darwinism is that the knowledge of how to build biological adaptations was created by conjecture, in the form of genetic variation that is random in respect to any particular problem to solve, and refutation, in the form of natural selection. What I've attempted to present in this brief comment is a universal explanation of how all knowledge in general is created. For example, we too have made a leap to universality. In our case, it's a leap that is completely unique to what we consider "people" : we are universal explainers. We can create explanatory knowledge. This includes creating explanations for the appearance of design. It also includes how to build artificial ribosomes that actually work. Being universal explainers, the only thing that would prevent us from doing so is creating the knowledge of how.critical rationalist
September 9, 2012
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And Toronto steps upo the equivocation:
We’re agreed on 1, that evolution CAN do it.
Intelligent design evolution, yes. Your position's blind watchmaker eviolution, no. And your continued equivocation proves that you just don't have a clue.
On the other hand, no one has ever observed the “intelligent designer” actually at work “designing” changes in life.
No one ever observes a programmer checking and correcting their spelling when writing a Word document. IOW your ignorance, while amusing, is not a refutation.Joe
September 9, 2012
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Unfortunately for CR darwinism cannot explain tRNA, mRNA, tRNA ligases nor genes with knowledge...Joe
September 9, 2012
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CR: Take a piece of paper and write the letters “TGCA” on it. […] Now, replace the actual base pairs “TGAC” in an organism’s genome with any of the above. Do you end up with the same effect? UB: If I did that, would the letters I write exist as rate-dependent structures that can be explained by physcial law, or are they rate-indepedent structures that can only be explained by a relationship established within physical system? First, I'll again point out that your argument is parochial in that is appeals to a specific level of reductionism. See comment #163, which you have completely ignored. IOW, it is unclear how would this prevent us from making progress in explaining the concrete biological adaptation in the biospehre, in practice. Second, and for the umpteenth time, it is also parochial in that it implicitly includes the idea that knowledge / information must be justified by some ultimate source. How do you justify whatever arbiter defines this relationship? And how do you justify that, etc? Will you respond with a serious question this time? Despite attempts to point out otherwise, it seems you are unable to recognize your conception of human knowledge as an idea that would be subject to criticism. As such, I extended my criticism to you in hope you would recognize it. Nor have you responded to my simple, direct questions designed to illustrate it, in detail. Again, you could easily clear this up by differentiating your conception of knowledge from the conception I presented. Then again, I'm not surprised by this in the least, as most ID proponents have enough sense to avoid the question as if it were the plague. UB: CR, you contunue to be unable to properly orient yourself to the discussion. I’ve lost interest in trying to orient you against your will. You seem to be blaming me for the ambiguity of your argument. For example…
1. A representation is an arrangement of matter which evokes an effect within a system (e.g. written text, spoken words, pheromones, animal gestures, codes, sensory input, intracellular messengers, nucleotide sequences, etc, etc).
All of my examples were representations of the actual base pairs TGCA, which are arrangements of matter. And they all evoke an effect in a system, such as vibrations, etc. These representations are arbitrary in the sense that their mapping is an agreement by geneticists as to which alphabetic characters represent each base. However, geneticists could have used some completely different set of letters. We can say the same about the sounds that represent those words, the shapes that make up the letter, etc. It's though this agreement that geneticists can make progress. However, your initial premise seems to assume *all* arrangements of matter that "cause things" represents "something else" in a system. This sounds similar to Aristotle's idea of a "first cause", which would be built into your argument from the start.
2. It is not logically possible to transfer information (the form of a thing; a measured aspect, quality, or preference) in a material universe without using a representation instantiated in matter.
What is information? What does it mean to transfer it? Does this take into account the rest of our current, best explanations for phenomena? For example, "Quasar" originally meant quasi-stellar object, which was just a fancy way of saying something that looked a bit like stars. However, not only do we now know Quasars are *not* stars, but we know what they *are*. Quasars were created billions of years ago and billions of years from here when material from the center of a galaxy collapsed towards a super-massive black hole. Intense magnetic fields directed some of the energy of that gravitational collapse, along with some of the matter, back out in the form of tremendous jets that illuminate with the brilliance of roughly a trillion suns. On the other hand, the physics of the human brain could hardly be more different that these jets. Not only does language break down when trying to describe them, but we could not survive in one for even an instant. IOW, the environment in the jet of a Quasar is about as different from our environment as you can get. Yet, these jets happened in precisely such a way that, billions of years later and on the other side of the universe, our brains could accurately describe, model, predict and explain what was happening there, in reality. One physical system, the brain, contains an accurate working model of the other, the quasar. And not just a superficial image of it, although it contains that as well, but an explanatory model, which embodies the same mathematical relationship and the same causal structure. This is knowledge. And knowledge is information that that tends to remain when embedded in some form of media, like human brains. What is the origin of this knowledge? How did it get into our brains? Does this fall under the "transform of information", if not what is it? From what I can grasp from your argument, a "transfer" of "information" occurs though some kind of effect of a "representation". And your example is DNA being transcribed to mRNA, which is then mediated by tRNA molecules within ribosomes. However, all of these examples are local and current, not billions of miles away and billions of years ago. Furthermore, the faithfulness of which the one structure, the brain, resembles the other, the quasar, is increasing over time. This is the *growth* of knowledge. IOW, it's unclear how the information from quasars can get "transferred" into our brains, let alone grow more accurate, via inductivism. Yet, there it is.
3. If that is true, and it surely must be, then several other things must logically follow. If there is now an arrangement of matter which contains a representation of form as a consequence of its own material arrangement, then that arrangement must be necessarily arbitrary to the thing it represents. In other words, if one thing is to represent another thing within a system, then it must be separate from the thing it represents. And if it is separate from it, then it cannot be anything but materially arbitrary to it (i.e. they cannot be the same thing).
At this point, given we haven't defined anything in any sort of useful sense, It's unclear how the previous "surely must be" true. Nor how anything logically follows from it.
4. If that is true, then the presence of that representation must present a material component to the system (which is reducible to physical law), while its arrangement presents an arbitrary component to the system (which is not reducible to physical law).
Apparently, the same word "arbitrary" now has two meanings: "not the same thing" and "not reducible to physical law". Or perhaps that is what you originally meant in the first place. Or perhaps you have redefined it, which could be equivocation? I honestly cannot tell. Regardless, this is a recipe for confusion.
5. If that is true, and again it surely must be, then there has to be something else which establishes the otherwise non-existent relationship between the representation and the effect it evokes within the system. In fact, this is the material basis of Francis Crick’s famous ‘adapter hypothesis’ in DNA, which lead to a revolution in the biological sciences. In a material universe, that something else must be a second arrangement of matter; coordinated to the first arrangement as well as to the effect it evokes.
From the Wikipedia entry on Transfer RNA…
Organisms vary in the number of tRNA genes in their genome. The nematode worm C. elegans, a commonly used model organism in genetics studies, has 29,647 [12] genes in its nuclear genome, of which 620 code for tRNA.[13][14] The budding yeast Saccharomyces cerevisiae has 275 tRNA genes in its genome. In the human genome, which according to current estimates has about 21,065 genes [15] in total, there are about 4,421 non-coding RNA genes, which include tRNA genes. There are 22 mitochondrial tRNA genes;[16] 497 nuclear genes encoding cytoplasmic tRNA molecules and there are 324 tRNA-derived putative pseudogenes.[17]
tRNA is controlled by knowledge laden genes. Again, Darwinism's explanation is that this knowledge is genuinely created, rather than having existed in some other form at the outset. There is no infinite regress.
6. It then also follows that this second arrangement must produce its unambiguous function, not from the mere presence of the representation, but from its arrangement. It is the arbitrary component of the representation which produces the function.
See above. We have an explanation for this knowledge: it was created by a form of conjecture and refutation, which is an error correcting process.
7. And if those observations are true, then in order to actually transfer recorded information, two discrete arrangements of matter are inherently required by the process; and both of these objects must necessarily have a quality that extends beyond their mere material make-up. The first is a representation and the second is a protocol (a systematic, operational rule instantiated in matter) and together they function as a formal system. They are the irreducible complex core which is fundamentally required in order to transfer recorded information.
Suddenly, we have something called "recorded information". How does "recording" information differ from transferring information? For example, as a verb, the term recorded indicates the information in question was initially absent, then placed there in some form of storage. Does the recording of information need "protocols" and "representations" and "forms"? Is it also part of a "irreducible complex core", etc?
8. During protein synthesis, a selected portion of DNA is first transcribed into mRNA, then matured and transported to the site of translation within the ribosome. This transcription process facilitates the input of information (the arbitrary component of the DNA sequence) into the system. The input of this arbitrary component functions to constrain the output, producing the polypeptides which demonstrate unambiguous function.
See above. At this point, the term arbitrary is used twice without any sort of clarification. Is tRNA "different" that mRNA or is it "not reducible to physical laws"? And now the concept of DNA being "arbitrary" has been introduced as well. The question is, in what sense?
9. From a causal standpoint, the arbitrary component of DNA is transcribed to mRNA, and those mRNA are then used to order tRNA molecules within the ribosome. Each stage of this transcription process is determined by the physical forces of pair bonding. Yet, which amino acid appears at the peptide binding site is not determined by pair bonding; it is determined by the aaRS. In other words, which amino acid appears at the binding site is only evoked by the physical structure of the nucleic triplet, but is not determined by it. Instead, it is determined (in spatial and temporal isolation) by the physical structure of the aaRS. This is the point of translation; the point where the arbitrary component of the representation is allowed to evoke a response in a physically determined system – while preserving the arbitrary nature of the representation.
Again, tRNA ligase (aaRS) is controlled by knowledge laden genes. See: “Sticky” Mice Lead to Discovery of New Cause of Neurodegenerative Disease. Darwinism explains this knowledge in that it was created by an error correcting process of conjecture and refutation. Mice with this defect can still reproduce despite exhibiting serious symptoms.critical rationalist
September 9, 2012
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Petrushka is still spitting up equivocations:
Apparently one only has to assert that evolution can’t do it and your argument is complete. No muss, no fuss, no icky research.
1- No one sez "evolution can't do it" as ID is OK with "evolution" doing it. 2- No one has ever observed blind and undirected processes doing it because obvioulsy there is too much muss, fuss and icky research involved. Ya see petrushka YOUR position doesn't have any research to support it. All you can do is baldly assert and throw father time at all issues. And to dr who- the entire planet has missed the part in which your position has any positive evidence to support its claims. "Self-replicating" molecules? You cannot demonstrate blind and undirected processes can construct such a thing. Nylonase? YOU cannot demonstrate blind and undirected processes didit (as opposed to "built-in responses to environmental cues". And BTW RB- you guys can't even account for DNA replication via blind and undirected processes. IOW you guys have nothing and your continued flailing exemplifies that fact.Joe
September 9, 2012
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F/N: Just for record, note that the measurement of info and of FSCI onward, is surveyed here on in the always linked, and the grounding of the log reduced chi metric is explored here on in context (and BTW, this uses a hard atomic resources limit that gets over the pretended objections to Dembski's CSI). These corrective points have been repeatedly highlighted over the past 18 months but the pretended objection is still being advanced that the MG sock puppet objections have merit. That is why -- given some of the tactics that have been used -- I have long since (for cause . . . you don't want to see what has been going on in the fever swamps . . . ) concluded that we are dealing with ruthless, amoral faction-spirited closed-minded objectionism and talking points in service to evolutionary materialism as ideology imposed on science, education and society [cf Plato's warning on that and the self-refuting incoherence of this view here and here], and frankly intended -- on the part of those who do or should know better -- to mislead the naive, not reasonable objections, at least on the part of those who are playing the MG talking points games. KFkairosfocus
September 9, 2012
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F/N: Genuine onlookers, notice the absence of responsiveness and actual dialogue on the part of the objectors, backed up by an evident pretence that communication systems (yes, my always linked that I have been referring to for days to deal with related questions on thermodynamics . . . ) are some strange, ill-understood and dubious entity. All the while, while using the Internet with its TCP/IP protocols on the ISO's OSI 7-layer "layercake" model, instantiated into material entities in accordance with intelligently designed rules and technologies, including those used to set up home wireless networks etc etc. Not to mention, we can discuss the telephone network, the cable TV network, satellite networks, and broadcast radio and TV etc etc etc. For those who genuinely wish to understand, information, comms systems, protocols, codes, digital -- discrete state -- info, etc etc can all be reasonably discussed, but how easy it is for these objectors to instead pose on selective hyperskepticism and make the pretence that that which is well grounded is suspect and dismissible. Because, it points where they would not go. That is why Mung's Q 5 above is so apt: "Attempt to relate the activities you are engaged in and the processes that must take place when you post here on UD to the above questions." KFkairosfocus
September 9, 2012
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onlooker- Perhaps you should buy a dictionary. OR you could look up the definitions on the internet.Joe
September 8, 2012
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onlooker:
You are clearly not acting like someone who has the courage of his convictions and confidence in his argument. In fact, your behavior is indistinguishable from someone who wishes to obfuscate in order to hide the flaws in his argument and avoid any potential challenge to his beliefs.
Nice projection. And if you are referencing keiths, then you have already lost.Joe
September 8, 2012
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Mung,
1. What do you think information is? 2. What do you think a representation is?
I am trying to understand Upright BiPed's argument. In order to do so I need to understand his definitions and premises. My definitions are immaterial and will not help me achieve the goal of understanding his.
I’m willing to grant that you may be a serious enquirer. Let’s find out.
Attempting to distract from Upright BiPed's failure to answer direct, simple questions about his argument by replying with questions is a transparent rhetorical ploy that has no place in a serious discussion.onlooker
September 8, 2012
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