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Logic and First Principles, 7: The problem of fallacies vs credible warrant

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When we deal with deeply polarised topics such as ID, we face the problem of well-grounded reasoning vs fallacies. A fallacy being a significantly persuasive but fundamentally misleading argument, often as an error of reasoning. (Cf. a classic collection here.) However, too often, fallacies are deliberately used by clever rhetors to mislead the unwary. Likewise we face the challenge of how much warrant is needed for an argument to be credible.

All of these are logical challenges.

Let us note IEP, as just linked:

A fallacy is a kind of error in reasoning. The list of fallacies below contains 224 names of the most common fallacies, and it provides brief explanations and examples of each of them. Fallacies should not be persuasive, but they often are. Fallacies may be created unintentionally, or they may be created intentionally in order to deceive other people. The vast majority of the commonly identified fallacies involve arguments, although some involve explanations, or definitions, or other products of reasoning. Sometimes the term “fallacy” is used even more broadly to indicate any false belief or cause of a false belief. The list below includes some fallacies of these sorts, but most are fallacies that involve kinds of errors made while arguing informally in natural language.
An informal fallacy is fallacious because of both its form and its content. The formal fallacies are fallacious only because of their logical form. For example, the Slippery Slope Fallacy has the following form: Step 1 often leads to step 2. Step 2 often leads to step 3. Step 3 often leads to … until we reach an obviously unacceptable step, so step 1 is not acceptable. That form occurs in both good arguments and fallacious arguments. The quality of an argument of this form depends crucially on the probabilities. Notice that the probabilities involve the argument’s content, not merely its form.

This focus on probabilistic aspects of informal fallacies brings out several aspects of the problem, for we often deal with empirical evidence and inductive reasoning rather than direct chained deductions. For deductive arguments, a chain is no stronger than the weak link, and if that link cannot be fixed, the whole argument fails to support the conclusion.

However, inductive arguments work on a different principle. Probability estimates, in a controversial context, will always be hotly contested. So, we must apply the rope principle: short, relatively weak individual fibres can be twisted together and then counter twisted as strands of a rope, giving a whole that is both long and strong.

Of chains, ropes and cumulative cases

For example, suppose that a given point has a 1% chance of being an error. Now, bring together ten mutually supportive points that sufficiently independently sustain the same conclusion. Odds that all ten are wrong in the same way are a lot lower. A simple calculation would be ([1 – 0.99]^10) ~10^-20. This is the basis of the classic observation that in the mouth of two or three independent witnesses, a word is established.

However, many will be inclined to set up a double-standard of warrant, an arbitrarily high one for conclusions they wish to reject vs a much softer one for those they are inclined to accept. Nowadays, this is often presented as “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.”

In fact, any claim simply requires adequate evidence.

Any demand for more than this cometh of evil.

This is of course the fallacy of selective hyperskepticism, a bane of discussions on ID topics. (The strength of will to reject can reach the level of dismissing logical-mathematical demonstration, often by finding some excuse to studiously ignore and side step as if it were not on the table.)

Of course, an objection will be: you are overly credulous. That is a claim, one that requires adequate warrant. Where, in fact, if one disbelieves what one should (per adequate warrant), that is as a rule because one also believes what one should not (per, lack of adequate warrant), which serves as a controlling belief. Where, if falsity is made the standard for accepting or rejecting claims, then the truth cannot ever be accepted, as it will run counter to the false.

All of this is seriously compounded by the tendency in a relativistic age to reduce truth to opinion, thence to personalise and polarise, often by implying fairly serious ad hominems. This can then be compounded by the “he hit back first” tactic.

This also raises the issue of the so-called concern troll. That is one who claims to support side A, but will always be found undermining it without adequate warrant, often using the tactics just noted. Such a persona in fact is enabling B by undermining A. This is a notorious agit prop tactic that works because it exploits passive aggressive behaviour patterns.

The answer to all of this is to understand how arguments work and how they fail to work, recognising the possibility of error and of participants who are in error (or are in worse than error) then focussing the merits of the case.

So, as we proceed, let us bear in mind the significance of adequate warrant, and the problem of selective hyperskepticism. END

PS: As it is relevant to the discussion that emerged, let me lay out the path to intellectual decay of our civilisation, adapting Schaeffer:

Extending (and correcting) Schaeffer’s vision of the course of western thought, worldviews and culture, C1 – 21

H’mm: Geostrategic picture:

As Scuzzaman highlights the slippery slope ratchet, let me put up the Overton Window (in the context of a ratchet that is steadily cranking it leftward on the usual political spectrum) — where, fallacies are used to create a Plato’s cave shadow-show world in which decision-making becomes ever more irrational, out of contact with reality:

Likewise, here is a model of malinvestment-led, self-induced economic disaster due to foolishly tickling a dragon’s tail and pushing an economy into unsustainable territory, building on Hayek:

Let me add, a view of the alternative political dynamics and spectrum:

U/d b for clarity, nb Nil

PPS: Mobius strip cut 1/2 way vs 1/3 way across vid:

Comments
SB, I think it is seriously arguable that the origin, continued existence and behaviour of matter in spacetime is credibly best explained on an immaterial source. Arguably, descent from a limitless past in finite successive causal-temporal stages is a supertask that cannot have been completed and in that context (DS et al notwithstanding) the claim of such an actually traversed limitless past does entail traversal of the transfinite in such stages. That is, it is reasonable to hold there was a finitely remote past origin of a matter-energy spacetime world, even if one tries to go beyond the singularity. By definition if matter came to be at a past terminus, it did not always exist and requires an adequate causal antecedent. Where, non-being (the true nothing, not some quantum foam or the like) patently has no causal capability. The best candidate adequate origin for our world which is fine tuned for C-Chem, aqueous medium, terrestrial planet cell based life and contains responsibly and rationally free morally governed creatures with conscience as witness and regulator of thought and deed, is the inherently good and wise creator God, a necessary and maximally great being. One worthy of our loyalty and of the responsible, rational service of doing the good in accord with our evident nature. That said, this is a distinct issue from a demonstration on first principles of reason that possible worlds necessarily manifest structure and quantity starting with the naturals. Where, it is a fallacy of distraction to suggest that an adequate answer to a demonstration is a contrary opinion in absence of sound counter demonstration. KFkairosfocus
January 26, 2019
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The Intelligent Designer's volition is the cause. But mathematics was used to intelligently design the physical world. That is the reason, ie cause, mathematics can be to used to effectively describe the physical world. My apologies. I forgot Ed was deficient in the use of dictionaries.ET
January 25, 2019
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Ed George
Then your argument should be with ET, not me. You and I obviously agree that mathematics is not a cause.
At the moment, my argument is with Hazel. You can confirm that fact by noticing that I was responding to her quote, which reflects the philosophy that nothing in nature is immaterial (or non material). I said nothing at all about mathematics and don't intend to until everyone understands the broader point, which was well summarized by William J. Murray: the movement and behavior of matter, contrary to Hazel's philosophy, can only be explained by a non-material cause. You have been silent on that matter, so I have no reason to believe that you agree with me in that context. Once we settle on the philosophical point, which is more important, we can discuss mathematics.StephenB
January 24, 2019
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StephenB
Where in my comment did you find any suggestion that mathematics can cause anything to happen?
Then your argument should be with ET, not me. You and I obviously agree that mathematics is not a cause.Ed George
January 24, 2019
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Ed George said:
But this is because the math helps us model the physical aspects of the world around us. Not because the mathematics is inherent to the world.
I suggest you read again StephenB's post at 306. Mathematics describes, with incredible precision, the behavior of things we observe in the physical world. We discover this mathematical behavior, we do not invent it. It doesn't matter what language or symbols you use to describe this behavior because they would all be saying the exact same thing regardless of cultural influences and language. We would expect alien intelligences to have the equivalent of the same formulas (or better or worse versions, depending on the state of their physics). Physical objects do not cause their own behaviors, unless you want to give them free will. Something else is determining their behavior with mathematical precision. One might argue that the mass of an object, or the energy of an electron, or the curvature of space-time "causes" these behaviors, but that's a version of begging the question and mistaking a model for the cause of the behavior in the model. What is causing the value of mass to interact with other mass in a particular, mathematical way? What is causing an electron's energy to have the precise set of effects it has? What is causing the universal constants and forces to operate the way they do? As StephenB rightly pointed out, the properties and characteristics of what we call matter and energy cannot have been caused by matter and energy. Do they arbitrarily set their own values? If they did, why would they be consistent from one rock to another, from one electron to another? It is apparent (logically) that the apparently universal order of these things is set by by something else that is deeper - call it a higher order or a fundamental substrate, and that this substrate can usefully be called "mathematics", although one might argue that "mathematics" is the tool by which universal mind generates physical behaviors. Since mathematics is "in mind", I don't see much distinction between saying mind causes those behaviors, or mathematics does. Which makes the case for Platonic Realism, and that it actually is mathematics (or some TOE algorithm employing mathematical principles) that actually determines the universal order we continue to discover. What we call the "abstract" would be the basis and foundation of what we call the physical world. QM theory research has consistently supported this for 150 years, which is why many theoreticians are now leaning towards information as the root of physics. Information is abstract, and only exists in mind. Until you can provide a theory of how matter and energy can cause their own properties, AND the universality of those properties, there is no logical materialist alternative to Platonic Realism.William J Murray
January 24, 2019
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SB: Matter cannot empower matter to move or inform matter about how to behave, so something non-material must play that role. This should be obvious because there is nothing in the cause that could possibly produce the effect. Put another way, a cause cannot give what it does not have to give. Ed George
I don’t think anyone is arguing that an effect does not require a cause. I take that as a self evident truth. But to suggest that mathematics is the cause does not make any sense. We employ mathematics to help us affect causes, but mathematics is not the cause.
Where in my comment did you find any suggestion that mathematics can cause anything to happen? Do you labor under the misconception that mathematical principles are the only abstract realities.. I was very clear in my statement that I was referring to non-physical forces that govern the behavior of matter, something that Hazel does not seem to acknowledge. Please read both my message and the message I am responding to so that you will understand the context of the interaction.StephenB
January 24, 2019
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Ed George:
But to suggest that mathematics is the cause does not make any sense.
Perhaps not to you.
We employ mathematics to help us affect causes, but mathematics is not the cause.
Why not? You have to make a case. You don't just get to baldly declare anything.ET
January 24, 2019
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EG, how many times has it been noted to you or laid out before your eyes that the specific issue at stake is that demonstratively (per logic and first principles), there are quantities and structures necessarily in the fabric of any possible world which include N and linked entities? Moreover, key aspects involved are tied to the logic of being, starting with requisites of distinct identity. In that context of a demonstration on the table, repeating a dismissive talking point without demonstrative warrant avails nothing. KF PS: Have you made three loops of paper yet, one ordinary and two Mobius? Have you cut the ordinary loop and one Mobious going around the loop, in the middle of the strip? The other, at 1/3 the way across? Do you notice three sharply different results, each tied to structure and quantities expressed in three bodies in space? Did you notice, each is not a figment of imagination? That it is structure and quantity embedded in real objects that made clear differences? And notice, observing the differences is not explaining or analysing them, it is seeing concrete reality showing how the logic of structure and quantity embedded in objects has definite consequences.kairosfocus
January 24, 2019
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StephenB
Matter cannot empower matter to move or inform matter about how to behave, so something non-material must play that role. This should be obvious because there is nothing in the cause that could possibly produce the effect. Put another way, a cause cannot give what it does not have to give.
I don’t think anyone is arguing that an effect does not require a cause. I take that as a self evident truth. But to suggest that mathematics is the cause does not make any sense. We employ mathematics to help us affect causes, but mathematics is not the cause. We use mathematics to help design the engine and the wing to manufacture a plane that is optimized for lift and fuel consumption. But this is because the math helps us model the physical aspects of the world around us. Not because the mathematics is inherent to the world.Ed George
January 24, 2019
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Hazel
The physical world contains physical things which behave in certain ways that can be described by our mathematical abstractions, but those abstractions don’t themselves exist in the physical world.
The law like regularities in nature, which we describe (and perceive) as laws, are *non-physical realities* that govern the activity of matter in the physical world. Matter cannot empower matter to move or inform matter about how to behave, so something non-material must play that role. This should be obvious because there is nothing in the cause that could possibly produce the effect. Put another way, a cause cannot give what it does not have to give.StephenB
January 24, 2019
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Nicely laid out, KF.William J Murray
January 24, 2019
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WJM (attn H): One of the themes that keeps surfacing is "certainty," which sets up the issues: warrant, knowledge, reliability, credibility, and responsibility. Given that we ever so often use knowledge in a sense that is less than absolute, irrefutable certainty, as in science, I have put on the table that knowledge speaks of warranted, credibly true (so, reliable) belief. Obviously, this is normally provisional, but it leaves open cases where the degree of warrant and credibility are such that these claims are utterly certainly true and beyond doubt, save by the irresponsible. That is where self-evident truths and inescapable first principles of right reason live. Such includes mathematical truths of the order ||| + || --> |||||. Thus, we see that warrant comes in degrees and must attain to some degree of reliability that lends the credibility that leads to responsible belief. This may be less than certain, e.g. by and large scientific theories and models are not certain, they are open to correction on many grounds. Yes, Science is at a relatively low rung on the warrant ladder. Observations of science are another matter, they carry with them the credibility of witness, which can be morally certain. So, certainty is now on the table, and just like warrant (from which it derives) it comes in degrees depending on cases, context and subject matter. Moral certainty is a case where the grounds of warrant are sufficiently strong that one would be derelict of duty if one were to willfully treat something of that degree of credibility as though it were false, when something of great moment or value is on the table. For example, in a criminal case under Common Law jurisdictions, one must prove beyond reasonable doubt -- this is a criterion of responsibility in the context of duty to justice. In commercial or civil matters, preponderance of evidence is a lower standard. Beyond that everyday sense of certainty, lie the cases where in effect there is reason to believe that the judgement that x is the case has passed beyond room for reasonable, responsible doubt and is utterly unlikely to be reversed; something is true and is so grounded that there is no real room for doubt, but is not a necessary truth -- one that must be so in this and all other possible worlds. Then, there is self-evidence, where x is so, is seen to be so by one with enough experience to understand the claim properly, and is such that the denial is immediately, patently absurd. That error exists, is a case in point, the attempt to deny instantly exemplifies that error exists. Likewise, one cannot be deluded that s/he is conscious, as to doubt is an act of consciousness. Regrettably, we are so situated that it is impossible to build a whole worldview up from matters that are at least self-evidently so. However, this degree of warranted certainty (and what lies beyond) serves to provide yardsticks and plumblines to test our worldview cores. For example, that error exists is undeniably true and warranted to self-evident certainty. This confirms that truth beyond opinion exists. Likewise, that some truths are intelligible, accessible by reason. As we observe and experience that error exists means that observation and experience can access truth. Similarly, we have warrant to undeniable certainty, so certain knowledge exists. If certain knowledge exists, knowledge (embracing weaker senses) exists also. Further to this, beliefs, opinions, ideologies and worldviews that assume, argue, opine and assert that truth, or knowledge, or warrant or certain knowledge do not exist or that claims to such only serve "intolerance" and oppressor-classes -- their name is Legion, are swept away wholesale as error. And yes, for cause I have the fell work of cultural marxism squarely in my sights, along with radical relativism and radical subjectivism. Moreover, having warranted this point to certainty, I freely hold there is demonstrative warrant and that for cause opinion and rhetorical objection to the contrary avail nothing. Though in a politically correct era, many will take the vapours and will be frightened that I have announced a policy of right wing, Christofascist totalitarianism dressed up in Torquemada's robes. That is how far ever so many in our civilisation have been misled. That agit prop induced and/or mal-education induced reaction is unwarranted, the issue is to act responsibly and rationally in light of duty to truth, right reason, prudence, justice, etc. However, there are higher yet degrees of warrant and certainty of knowledge. Some truths are necessary, certain, intelligible and knowable to utter, incorrigible certainty and even absolute: the truth, the whole truth on a material matter, nothing but the truth on the material matter. Where, a necessary truth will be so in this or any other possible world. And what is more, many such truths are intelligible and warranted to similarly necessary certainty. Many core principles of reason and mathematics are of this order. For relevant example, for a distinct world to be possible of existence, it must have in it at least one feature [A] such that it is different from all other possible worlds. We may then freely dichotomise W: W = {A|~A}. This already indicates that rationally intelligible structure and quantity are present in the fabric for such a world, we may readily identify here duality, unity (and complex unity in the case ~A), also nullity. The von Neumann construction then gives muscle to Peano's succession from unity, and we have the natural counting numbers. From this, we may further recognise Z, Q, R, C and more. Widening scope, and using reality in the widest sense, in reality (to include the case where there may be plural worlds as domains in reality) there will be some A, thus too ~A and a similar dichotomy obtains, R = {A|~A}. Instantly, A is itself i/l/o its core characteristics, perhaps a bright red ball on a table. This is the Law of Identity, LOI. Similarly, by the contrast and dichotomy, no x in R will be in A and in ~A, law of non contradiction, LNC. Thirdly (notice how counting numbers are implicit) any x in R will be in A or else in ~A, not in both or neither. Law of the excluded middle, LEM. These three are inescapably true. We cannot prove them by appealing to something deeper, as to try to prove abnnot but assume and implicitly use them. Likewise a claimed disproof or possible world in which they do not hold will on inspection be found to be implicitly using them. Such are the start-points for reasoning. And more, KFkairosfocus
January 24, 2019
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Hazel, To be clear, I don't consider anything that goes on here a "win" or a "loss". I contribute here in on certain subjects because I invite rational criticism. I want to discover flaws in my reasoning if they exist. It's perfectly fine, IMO, to simply hold any view one wishes, whether or not they can be defended rationally - that's our innate right via our free will. Usually, people can have all sorts of ill-considered views (not saying that yours fall in this category, just generally speaking) and lead a very successful and happy life. So, when it comes to practical use, even totally unexamined and irrational beliefs are usually adequate. IMO, the significant question is, can anything meaningful be gained if one develops a better model of mind, a model that makes some predictions that can (at least personally) be experimented with? What if a better model of mind is like a better theory of physics, and actually opens a door to a whole new world of practical application, much like quantum physics did? Food for thought.William J Murray
January 24, 2019
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william, you write, "Additionally, you keep returning to the theme of “let’s go our own way,” or something similar yet – so far – continue to engage. Why? Do you actually expect others to stop responding to your posts? Do you expect yourself to do so at some point in the future?" This is a key question: what good am I getting out of this, and what somewhat compulsive feelings keep me responding? I'm been thinking about this, and will try to deal with it.hazel
January 24, 2019
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Hazel, You seem to be intent on not understanding the nature of my conversation with you, and on misunderstanding my position (as Vividbleau points out @299 - BTW thanks VB, I was thinking maybe I somehow wasn't being clear). Let's look at what you say in 298 and see if we cannot reach an understanding.
"William, my view is useful to me. If that is the criteria, then let us each go our own way."
The criteria for what? If you mean, the criteria for how one sorts their views, then yes. Each individual can apply whatever criteria they deem fit to acquire and hold beliefs and views. The individual doesn't even have to defend or argue those views. However, the criteria for rationally discussing, debating and arguing those views is that one is willing to submit those views to rational criticism, part of which is a willingness to concede flaws in one's own position and admit when they cannot offer any rational criticism against a particular counter-argument. Additionally, you keep returning to the theme of "let's go our own way," or something similar yet - so far - continue to engage. Why? Do you actually expect others to stop responding to your posts? Do you expect yourself to do so at some point in the future? Further, let's look at a couple of statements you've made:
Also, I agree about the importance of understanding mind, and with “It’s all we have to make decisions, sort our experience out and make sense out of our very existence. It’s the root of our very self-identity. ”
..and:
That expresses my feelings pretty well. YMMV, and I don’t expect you to like it, but I’d rather be honest to myself about what I know and don’t know then to attach a greater sense of certainty than is warranted to philosophical things that are more thought games than they are grounded in experience.
This, again, seems to be a recurring pattern ... dismissing the whole exercise as either impenetrable (... no one can know) or ultimately unimportant and a kind of side-discussion you'll suffer through as long as you feel like it, or, in contrast, an extremely important - if not THE single most important - introspection, argument, discussion and line of thought one can embark on that is inextricably embedded in the very nature of experience. It seems like you try to have it both ways at different times during the conversation - something I noticed some time back when, on one of my threads, I told you to either commit to the C/A/D or get off the thread. You said:
I’m making a considered decision to not think I know more than I do,...
Interesting, but is it true? Let's look at recurring statement you make: @296:
I don’t know how abstract concepts exist in the mind....And neither do you. The difference is that you think you know ...
How did you know that I don't know before I agreed to it? Why is it that after I have agreed with you that I don't know, you keep characterizing me as feeling like I "know" it?
You have a theoretical model, and so does the naturalist, but neither is testable.
How do you know they are not testable? You haven't even asked me if my theory is testable. Did I not tell you that unless my theory had practical applications, I would have no use for it? Doesn't that at least imply that it does have testable predictions? @289:
Your Platonic premise that the abstractions exist antecedent to the physical world, are embedded in it, and constrain it may be true, but it is not demonstrably true. Other premises lead to different conclusions, and may also be true. The history of philosophy shows clearly that there is no definitive way to resolve this issue.
Can you support your assertion that it is not demonstrably true? Wouldn't an honest assessment of "what you know and what you do not know" mean admitting that you do not know if it is demonstrably true or not? I think at some point you admitted that you weren't much of a philosopher. Are you a student of philosophy? I wonder how it is that you so easily state that the "history of philosophy shows clearly" that the issue cannot be resolved definitively. Is this something you know based on research into the matters and having a deep understanding of the various arguments; and, even if so (which I don't think is the case), why would that mean that the issue cannot be resolved definitively, even if prior attempts have failed? This doesn't really sound like a person that admits to herself what she doesn't know. This pattern looks more like a person who admits what she doesn't know when it suits her (apparently, when pressured to offer their own charactizations, definitions and models of what "exist in mind" means), but makes assertions about things as if she knows when it suits her - even assertions about what is going on in the minds of others when they have explicitly said otherwise. Another interesting assertion of knowledge on your part:
But the relationship between the concepts of math in our minds and their application to the physical world is precisely the philosophical issue under discussion, and it in itself can not be resolved by pure logic alone. Hence different perspectives.
How do you know it cannot be resolved by pure logic alone? (And, anyway, it's not "pure logic alone"; the argument is also based on agreed mutual experience of the world and in mind.) I'd like to go back to an earlier comment of yours:
Yes, but still individual people still have to judge whether adequate “merits of fact and logic” have been presented, which gets us back to Ed’s original question. Kf claims that he has put “demonstrative warrant on the table”, and that therefore “opinions to the contrary avail nothing”, apparently dismissing arguments against his position or for any other position as mere opinions. But who judges whether kf has in fact put “demonstrative warrant on the table” is still an issue. For the person who puts the facts and logic on the table to be the person who then judges they are impeccably sound is circular. Of course we are inclined to think that the facts and logic we ourselves are presenting are sound, but it is other’s judgment of that that eventually leads to the acceptance of that soundness.
What, in your view, is the proper way to judge a logical argument or model? The reason KF says "opinions" are irrelevant is because they are. The only thing that matters in the debate is whether or not anyone can point out a flaw in the reasoning. Period. Your "opinion" on the matter is irrelevant. You or EG "not being convinced" is irrelevant. You not being able to accept the implications is irrelevant. You either point out the flaws in the logic, offer a sound alternative, or you have conceded that the argument on the table is valid. That doesn't make it true. That doesn't mean I or anyone presenting the argument know it is true. Whether it is actually true, and whether or not KF or I or others "know" it is true, is entirely irrelevant. The argument/model is either logically sound, or it is not. You either have a rational criticism or you do not. You either have a logically (and evidentially) sound alternative, or you do not. Saying "other philosophers disagree" is not pointing out the flaw or offering an alternative. Saying "no one can know that the model on the table is true" is irrelevant. Posting quotes by philosophers that are happy to accept not knowing is not a rational criticism or counter-argument. I AGREE that I do not know. I don't hold ANY belief so dearly as to say "I know with certainty". "Nobody can know with certainty" is denialism and sophistry and has no place in a rational discussion. The only thing I hold as an absolute certainty is "I experience" (whatever "I" am, and whatever "experience" is). Please abandon the rhetoric and engage the logic. If the logic premise is unsound, don't just say "you disagree" or "others disagree" or "you can't know that"; show how the premise is flawed. The same with the extending logic - show how it is flawed, don't just claim it could be and that nobody really knows and others disagree. If you can't do that, then the model/argument of platonic realism stands as valid until shown otherwise, whether or not it is actually true, and whether or not anyone "knows" it is true, whether or not anyone likes it or has this or that opinion of it. You've already admitted you don't have an alternative model/argument, so that route doesn't seem to be an available option.William J Murray
January 24, 2019
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Total nonsense- the naturalist does not have any models. The naturalist cannot explain the existence of life. And now hazel is telling us what we can and cannot know. How pathetic is that?ET
January 24, 2019
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Hazel “I’m making a considered decision to not think I know more than I do,” Sheesh WJM has already covered this ground several times ( in 295 and 297)why do you insist in bringing up that which is not an issue? Vividvividbleau
January 23, 2019
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William, my view is useful to me. If that is the criteria, then let us each go our own way. Also, I agree about the importance of understanding mind, and with "It’s all we have to make decisions, sort our experience out and make sense out of our very existence. It’s the root of our very self-identity. " But I'm not "throwing up my hands": I'm making a considered decision to not think I know more than I do, and to work doing all the things you say above (decisions, making sense, etc.) with the knowledge I do have. I’ve said I think you and kf both think you know more than you really can: you’ve invented your own set of philosophical abstractions and a logic that holds them all together, but they are a self contained system without any definitive appeal to any experience that can validate them to others. So you live with your useful theory, and kf with his, and me with mine, including my willingness to live with not thinking I know more than I do.hazel
January 23, 2019
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Hazel, You don't seem to understand some things I've explicitly stated. I'm not asking or expecting anyone here to "know" how things exist in the mind. The fact that you and I don't know (if by "know" you are referring to certainty) is irrelevant. I never said that I know my model to be true. I don't know that it is true; frankly, I don't really care as long as it is useful. I do know that it is logically sound (at least, so far irrefutable via rational criticisms), and cogently explains (describes) the issues under examination and common experience. I also know that KF's model is logically sound and although we disagree on whether or not the existence of an actual material world is necessary for the logic to remain sound, we present each other with logical arguments and criticisms in our discussion. Unless you provide a rational criticism of the models offered, or provide an alternative theoretical model that is subject to rational criticism and debate, all you can be doing here is offering personal exposition. Thought games? ROFL. I don't waste my time on "thought games". I'm a philosophical pragmatist. If there was no practical, experiential payoff for doing my best to understand the nature of mind, I wouldn't bother. IMO, understanding mind is the single most important task one can embark on. It's all we have to make decisions, sort our experience out and make sense out of our very existence. It's the root of our very self-identity. If you want to throw your hands up and proclaim that it is some unsolvable mystery, fine, but don't expect the rest of us to not call out your groundless, irrational and undefended exposition for what it is.William J Murray
January 23, 2019
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You got me, William. I don't have an alternate model. I don't know how abstract concepts exist in the mind. I don't know if they are "universal" concepts in the sense of existing someplace other than in my mind and other people's minds, and I don't know how to explain the way the math in our minds has an"apparent intimate and necessary relationship with the physical world." And neither do you. The difference is that you think you know, and I know I don't. I think you are wrong about knowing. You have a theoretical model, and so does the naturalist, but neither is testable. I'm content to have the same attitude Wigner did when he said:
The full meaning of life, the collective meaning of all human desires, is fundamentally a mystery beyond our grasp. ... I have made peace with it. I even feel a certain honor to be associated with such a mystery.
That expresses my feelings pretty well. YMMV, and I don't expect you to like it, but I'd rather be honest to myself about what I know and don't know then to attach a greater sense of certainty than is warranted to philosophical things that are more thought games than they are grounded in experience.
hazel
January 23, 2019
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Hazel,
Sorry, I can’t explain consciousness and don’t know what mind is other than my experience of it.
You're not being asked to know. You're being asked to present a theoretical model that is subject to rational criticism that explains (describes) the existence of universal, discoverable abstract concepts. One such model describes "mind" as the experience of purely material forces, and in concept experienced "mentally" to be the product of material forces. (Materialism / Nominalism) Another model describes "mind" (or at least the universal aspects of it) to be (at least) the substrate upon which the physical universe exists. (Platonic Realism). You've rejected both models, if memory serves, offering no logical criticism or alternative model. Until you do so, "exists in my mind" cannot move the conversation forward because that is the beginning of the conversation. Yes, WE ALL KNOW these things "exist in my mind"; that is not being debated. What is being debated is (1) how do they exist in mind (theoretical model), and (2) what are the logical implications of any such model and (3) does that model comport with (explain, describe) what we actually experience (the universality of some things that exist in our mind, and the apparent capacity to discover those universals, and their apparent intimate and necessary relationship with the physical world)?William J Murray
January 23, 2019
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H, labelling what you disagree with as a "philosophy" does not change the warrant from literally first principles of reason that is on the table. That warrant that certain structural and quantitative entities are embedded in this or any other possible world, is not rooted in debatable presuppositions but in distinct identity of a possible world and what it entails. It is impossible to argue against distinct identity as to argue you must use it. The structural and quantitative consequences follow on inspecting what that means once we acknowledge that two different things W1 and W2 must differ in at least some aspect A, or else they are but labels for the same thing W. That is what you need to overturn. If in objecting, you mean that a valid deduction on true premises leads to true conclusions is to be dismissed, good luck. If you mean the reasoning does not follow, show why, though it will be hard to see how W = {A|~A} does not show two distinct units, or that outside A and ~A but in W there is no thing, or that inside a partitioning element there is likewise no thing. Thus, we see nullity, unity (including complex unity BTW) and duality. Thus, embedded quantitative aspects. From this, the von Neumann succession follows thence N, thereafter Z, Q, R, C etc. KFkairosfocus
January 23, 2019
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Sorry, I can't explain consciousness and don't know what mind is other than my experience of it. If that disqualifies me in your eyes from disputing your philosophy, then there isn't any sense in your paying any attention to me, it seems, I think I need a new meme.hazel
January 23, 2019
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Hazel @ 288, All you are doing is rephrasing the same thing a different way. Until you have a model that explains/describes what it means to "exist in mind" or "exist in consciousness", you're not providing an alternative to platonic realism, you're begging the question and ceding the point by default. Platonic realism provides a model of what it means to "exist in mind" which can then be logically examined back to necessary principles, experiential (empirical, first-person) evidence, and forward to conclusions - which both KF and I (and others) have done. You can either show how the model(s) on the table are logically flawed; provide your own competing model; or cede the point that you have no competing model and no argument to make against those already on the table. This is the WHOLE POINT of the discussion, and you're avoiding providing us with the most necessary aspect of any counter-proposal or criticism.William J Murray
January 23, 2019
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H, in re 288: >>“Exist in mind” means it’s something I’m aware of in my consciousness, or have access to in my consciousness at relevant times. “Existing in mind” is an experiential fact, not something to be defined.>> 1 - tantamount to, a label or awareness, or a concept not a description applicable to external reality, the Kantian gap again. 2 --> This fails, as nominalism and Kantian gaps fail, also such are here sustained as opinions in the teeth of demonstrations not countered through showing invalid or unsound. 3 -- demonstration pivoting on inescapable first principles. 289: >>you are wasting your time posting all these examples>> 4 -- as cases show direct physical instantiation of abstracta constraining extramental being, they are relevant. 5 -- have you set up and done the cut exercises on Mobius strips? How do these NOT show that space embeds key quantitative and structural properties that are independent of our opinions, i.e. objectively . . . and often amazingly . . . fact-on-the-ground present? 6 -- How is momentum or energy not an abstract quantity, showing also fundamental theorem of calculus through cumulative effects of force through space and time? 7 -- How is the capillary effect hyperbola not, again, an objective demonstration? 8 - Likewise, the behaviour of a projectile. >>We all know that math can describe the world, and that modeling relationships between pure math and actual events in the physical world exist>> 9 - It seems, your premises lock out something that is evident: structure and quantity are embedded in space, objects and dynamic processes. 10 - Moreover, effects of energy and momentum conservation are palpably evident and observable, the cut Mobius strips are not in the mind, they can be held in hands, the projectile's behaviour is observable and reliably predictable, hence gunlaying. 11 -- these call for bridging the Wigner Math-Physics gap and we have a demonstration on the table that the link comes through distinct identity and linked logic of being. 12 -- you need not accept, you are free; we are also free to draw the conclusion that by failing to provide serious counter warrant and sidestepping manifest demonstrations you are in the position of posing opinions against demonstrations from undeniable first principles AND disputing or dismissing significance of facts of observation. 13 -- Conclusion, the balance on merits is decisive and not favourable to the objections you have made. KFkairosfocus
January 23, 2019
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hazel:
We all know that math can describe the world, and that modeling relationships between pure math and actual events in the physical world exist, and that there is a mystery in Wigner’s words, as the unreasonable effectiveness of this relationship.
Except there is only a mystery to those who deny the obvious.
The only issue that I am addressing is your claim that the abstractions which exist in our minds as parts of pure math are embedded in the physical world.
That sounds like a strawman. There is much that is embedded and then rest exists outside of that.ET
January 23, 2019
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kf, you are wasting your time posting all these examples. We all know that math can describe the world, and that modeling relationships between pure math and actual events in the physical world exist, and that there is a mystery in Wigner's words, as the unreasonable effectiveness of this relationship. The only issue that I am addressing is your claim that the abstractions which exist in our minds as parts of pure math are embedded in the physical world. The physical world contains physical things which behave in certain ways that can be described by our mathematical abstractions, but those abstractions don't themselves exist in the physical world. This is a philosophical point of view, and your position is also. Your Platonic premise that the abstractions exist antecedent to the physical world, are embedded in it, and constrain it may be true, but it is not demonstrably true. Other premises lead to different conclusions, and may also be true. The history of philosophy shows clearly that there is no definitive way to resolve this issue. So no further amount of examples of neat math and neat examples in the physical world will add any more weight to your perspective.hazel
January 23, 2019
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William, you've said this before. "Exist in mind" means it's something I'm aware of in my consciousness, or have access to in my consciousness at relevant times. "Existing in mind" is an experiential fact, not something to be defined. I can't explain what consciousness actually is, or how things exist in my mind, or how the mind interfaces with my body, and neither, I think, can you or anybody else.hazel
January 23, 2019
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H, the above and the newer thread provide answers. The demonstration, on logic. Cases up to and beyond a Mobius strip, physically. Twisted paper loops that separate differently if you cut in the middle vs 1/3 way across are not figments of our conceptual imagination. They are telling us that logic of being structural and quantitative factors directly constrain space and objects in it, independent of our opinions. KF PS: I will shortly add the 1/2 way across vs 1/3 way across Mobius strip cut vid to the OP. Why not carry out the physical exercises? U/D: added.kairosfocus
January 23, 2019
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For Ed George --> No need to rub in salt. KFET
January 23, 2019
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