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UB Sets It Out Step-By-Step

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UD Editors:  No one has come close to refuting UB’s thesis after 129 comments.  We are moving this post to the top of the page to give the materialists another chance.

I take the following from an excellent comment UB made in a prior post.  UB lays out his argument step by step, precept by precept.  Then he arrives at a conclusion.  In order for his argument to be valid, the conclusion must follow from the premises.  In order for his argument to be sound, each of the premises must be true.

Now here is the challenge to our Darwinist friends.  If you disagree with UB’s conclusion, please demonstrate how his argument is either invalid (as a matter of logic the conclusion does not follow from the premises) or unsound (one or more of the premises are false).  Good luck (you’re going to need it).

Without further ado, here is UB’s argument:

1.  A representation is an arrangement of matter which evokes an effect within a system (e.g. written text, spoken words, pheromones, animal gestures, codes, sensory input, intracellular messengers, nucleotide sequences, etc, etc).

2.  It is not logically possible to transfer information (the form of a thing; a measured aspect, quality, or preference) in a material universe without using a representation instantiated in matter.

3.  If that is true, and it surely must be, then several other things must logically follow. If there is now an arrangement of matter which contains a representation of form as a consequence of its own material arrangement, then that arrangement must be necessarily arbitrary to the thing it represents. In other words, if one thing is to represent another thing within a system, then it must be separate from the thing it represents. And if it is separate from it, then it cannot be anything but materially arbitrary to it (i.e. they cannot be the same thing).

4.  If that is true, then the presence of that representation must present a material component to the system (which is reducible to physical law), while its arrangement presents an arbitrary component to the system (which is not reducible to physical law).

5.  If that is true, and again it surely must be, then there has to be something else which establishes the otherwise non-existent relationship between the representation and the effect it evokes within the system. In fact, this is the material basis of Francis Crick’s famous ‘adapter hypothesis’ in DNA, which lead to a revolution in the biological sciences. In a material universe, that something else must be a second arrangement of matter; coordinated to the first arrangement as well as to the effect it evokes.

6.  It then also follows that this second arrangement must produce its unambiguous function, not from the mere presence of the representation, but from its arrangement.  It is the arbitrary component of the representation which produces the function.

7.  And if those observations are true, then in order to actually transfer recorded information, two discrete arrangements of matter are inherently required by the process; and both of these objects must necessarily have a quality that extends beyond their mere material make-up. The first is a representation and the second is a protocol (a systematic, operational rule instantiated in matter) and together they function as a formal system. They are the irreducible complex core which is fundamentally required in order to transfer recorded information.

8.  During protein synthesis, a selected portion of DNA is first transcribed into mRNA, then matured and transported to the site of translation within the ribosome. This transcription process facilitates the input of information (the arbitrary component of the DNA sequence) into the system. The input of this arbitrary component functions to constrain the output, producing the polypeptides which demonstrate unambiguous function.

9.  From a causal standpoint, the arbitrary component of DNA is transcribed to mRNA, and those mRNA are then used to order tRNA molecules within the ribosome. Each stage of this transcription process is determined by the physical forces of pair bonding. Yet, which amino acid appears at the peptide binding site is not determined by pair bonding; it is determined  by the aaRS. In other words, which amino acid appears at the binding site is only evoked by the physical structure of the nucleic triplet, but is not determined by it. Instead, it is determined (in spatial and temporal isolation) by the physical structure of the aaRS. This is the point of translation; the point where the arbitrary component of the representation is allowed to evoke a response in a physically determined system – while preserving the arbitrary nature of the representation.

10.  This physical event, translation by a material protocol, as well as the transcription of a material representation, is ubiquitous in the transfer of recorded information.

CONCLUSION:  These two physical objects (the representation and protocol) along with the required preservation of the arbitrary component of the representation, and the production of unambiguous function from that arbitrary component, confirm that the transfer of recorded information in the genome is just like any other form of recorded information. It’s an arbitrary relationship instantiated in matter.

Comments
LarTanner: But of course Shannon information is largely unhelpful as a concept for understanding functional information . . . DNA isn't so much a communication system (although there may be some aspects of DNA that would hint at that), as it is an information repository -- a database primarily. The communication system is the whole enchilada: the code, the repository (DNA), the locators, the readers, the translators, all working together toward an end . . .Eric Anderson
August 25, 2012
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LarTanner:
DNA in this account is a communication system such as Claude Shannon described in 1948/9, and so it therefore should be able to be characterized mathematically.
Yes, 4 possible nucleotides = 2^2 = 2 bits of information (carrying capacity) for each nucleotide. Each codon = 3 nucleotides = 6 bits. 64 possible codon combinations that map to either an amino acid or a STOP (command) = 2^6 = 6 bits of information per amino acid.Joe
August 25, 2012
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Now, I find the preceding to be absolutely fascinating! A photon, in its quantum wave state, is found to be mathematically defined as a ‘infinite-dimensional’ state, which ‘requires an infinite amount of information’ to describe it properly, can be encoded with information in its 'infinite dimensional' state, and this ‘infinite dimensional’ photon is found to collapse, instantaneously, and thus ‘non-locally’, to just a '1 or 0' state, out of a infinite number of possibilities that the photon could have collapsed to instead! Moreover, consciousness is found to precede the collapse of the wavefunction of the photon to its uncertain particle state. Now my question to materialistic atheists is this, "Exactly what ’cause’ has been postulated throughout history to be completely independent of any space-time constraints, as well as possessing infinite knowledge, so as to be the ‘sufficient cause’ to explain what we see in the quantum wave collapse of a photon??? With the refutation of the materialistic 'hidden variable' argument and with the patent absurdity of the materialistic 'Many-Worlds' hypothesis, then I can only think of one sufficient explanation for infinite dimensional quantum wave collapse to single bit photon;
John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. Psalm 118:27 God is the LORD, who hath shown us light:,,, Job 38:19 "What is the way to the abode of light? And where does darkness reside? 1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. Toby Mac (In The Light) - music http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_MpGRQRrP0
Further notes:
Fine Tuning Of Universal Constants, Particularly Light – Walter Bradley – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4491552 Fine Tuning Of Light to the Atmosphere, to Biological Life, and to Water – graphs https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYmaSrBPNEmGZGM4ejY3d3pfMTljaGh4MmdnOQ Privileged Planet: 1 in 10^24 Extreme Fine Tuning of Light for Life and Scientific Discovery - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/7715887
bornagain77
August 25, 2012
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as to:
The point is that they (photons) are not coded according to an arbitrary code (unless you consider the basic laws of nature a code, but it would be difficult to consider it arbitrary, except maybe for the Creator :) ).
Not to comment on the word arbitrary, or code, or any of the other words, but only as to a little more definition relating photons to God:
Light and Quantum Entanglement Reflect Some Characteristics Of God – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4102182 Wave function Excerpt “wave functions form an abstract vector space”,,, This vector space is infinite-dimensional, because there is no finite set of functions which can be added together in various combinations to create every possible function. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_function#Wave_functions_as_an_abstract_vector_space Explaining Information Transfer in Quantum Teleportation: Armond Duwell †‡ University of Pittsburgh Excerpt: In contrast to a classical bit, the description of a (photon) qubit requires an infinite amount of information. The amount of information is infinite because two real numbers are required in the expansion of the state vector of a two state quantum system (Jozsa 1997, 1) http://www.cas.umt.edu/phil/faculty/duwell/DuwellPSA2K.pdf 3D to 4D shift - Carl Sagan - video with notes Excerpt from Notes: The state-space of quantum mechanics is an infinite-dimensional function space. Some physical theories are also by nature high-dimensional, such as the 4-dimensional general relativity. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VS1mwEV9wA Quantum Computing – Stanford Encyclopedia Excerpt: Theoretically, a single qubit can store an infinite amount of information, yet when measured (observed, and thus collapsing the Quantum Wave state) it yields only the classical result i.e. 0 or 1,,, http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-quantcomp/#2.1 Single photons to soak up data: Excerpt: the orbital angular momentum of a photon can take on an infinite number of values. Since a photon can also exist in a superposition of these states, it could – in principle – be encoded with an infinite amount of information. http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/7201 Ultra-Dense Optical Storage – on One Photon Excerpt: Researchers at the University of Rochester have made an optics breakthrough that allows them to encode an entire image’s worth of data into a photon, slow the image down for storage, and then retrieve the image intact.,,, Quantum mechanics dictates some strange things at that scale, so that bit of light could be thought of as both a particle and a wave. As a wave, it passed through all parts of the stencil at once, carrying the "shadow" of the UR with it. http://www.physorg.com/news88439430.html Quantum Theory's 'Wavefunction' Found to Be Real Physical Entity: Scientific American - November 2011 Excerpt: David Wallace, a philosopher of physics at the University of Oxford, UK, says that the theorem is the most important result in the foundations of quantum mechanics that he has seen in his 15-year professional career. "This strips away obscurity and shows you can't have an interpretation of a quantum state as probabilistic," he says. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=quantum-theorys-wavefunction
bornagain77
August 25, 2012
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steveh: you say: As they impinge on my visual system, they indeed start a series of events that result in me building up a mental picture of the distant tree. But as I understand it, the visual system is reacting to the photons – not to the tree itself. So why are the electrical and chemical signals in my visual system considered a coded representation of the tree, but the information arriving at my eye (which is also not a tree, but contains all the information my visual system needs to arrive at its concusion) not? Well, according to my views, as I have expressed them, the photons transmitting the information are of the "shadow like" category. They are a physical system which is related to the object (the tree) by specific, basic physical laws. You could argue that, in the measure that photons bevave as quantum entities, they could be considered discrete or digital. But that is not the point. The point is that they are not coded according to an arbitrary code (unless you consider the basic laws of nature a code, but it would be difficult to consider it arbitrary, except maybe for the Creator :) ). The neurological signals that transmit the information to the brain, and from the brain to consciousness, are different, at least as far as we understand (I will happily admit that our understanding of these points is rather limited. For what we know of neurological structures, a real arbitrary coding probably happens in the nervous system. And it is not based purely on basci physical laws. IOWs, the retinal the optical nerve, and the central structures in the brain do not work merely as a film, conveying analogically the form of the tree. They work more like a CCD with a complex software, transforming the visual input into some kind of digital message, elaborating it, reconstructing it, and so on. Just to be more clear: a DNA gene requires knowledge of the genetic code to be understood or used as a storing memory of a protein sequence. Any software requires basic coding rules to work. The neurological system, as far as we can understand, has ots specific codes too. None of those codes is strictly a consequence of physical laws, although all of them work through physical laws. The sequence of myoglobin could be stored by any other code based on the four nucleotides of DNA, or by any coded sequence of bits in a computer. A word processor can work in the same way if it is written for Windows or for Linux, but the code will be different. The code is arbitrary. The information remains the same. Arbitrary coding procedures are necessary both when the digital coded information is created and whne it is decoded (translated) and used. So, my point about the DNA system should be more clear now: the gene for myoglobin is written according to a specific arbitrari code, the genetic code. We have to explain in some way how that structure, storing precious information about a very efficient protein molecule, originated. And that explanation must take into account the "code awareness" of that particular information (as well as of any protein coding gene). On the other side, we have to acknowledge that the translation system is equally "aware" of the specific arbitrary genetic code, otherwise it could not work. We have to explain that too. In explaining that, we must remember that the translation system, in all its implementations that we know, consists of many very complex structure, at least: a) the ribosome system b) the tRNAs c) the 20 synthetases I am overlooking here the transcription part, and many other things. I will also leave alone a) and b), to concentrate only on c). Why? Because c) is the part that is most responsible for decoding the genetic code. It is the specific "code aware" part. And how is it "code aware"? In a very complex way. Each of the 20 synthetases is able to recognize a specific tRNA with a specific anticodon, and to "charge" it with the correct aminoacid for that anticodon. Please note that there is no biochemical connection between the anticodon in the tRNA and the aminoacid. The connection is "created" by the specific sequence and structure of the specific synthetase (a very complex protein made of hundreds of AAs). So, we can say that the 20 synthtases are very much "code aware": their same structure and function is built to "serve" the specific arbitrary genetic code. And, obviously, the information about each of the 20 synthetases is stored in the respective DNA genes, in a very "code aware" way. And obviously, for each synthetase, that information can be used only by the translation apparatus, based on the synthetases themselves. Is all that clear?gpuccio
August 25, 2012
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StephenB: Hi, how are you? Thank you for the comments. And for the "ontological and epistemological chance" formulation (what a beautiful way of saying it!). As you have partially entered the game :) , as soon as you can, I would appreciate to know your take about quantum probability: ontological or epistemological?gpuccio
August 25, 2012
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UB: It will be a pleasure to read your further contributions. Please, take all the time you need...gpuccio
August 25, 2012
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small point: encoded information, such as we find encoded in computers, and such as we find encoded in DNA, is found to be a subset of 'conserved' quantum information:,,,
Quantum knowledge cools computers: New understanding of entropy - June 2011 Excerpt: No heat, even a cooling effect; In the case of perfect classical knowledge of a computer memory (zero entropy), deletion of the data requires in theory no energy at all. The researchers prove that "more than complete knowledge" from quantum entanglement with the memory (negative entropy) leads to deletion of the data being accompanied by removal of heat from the computer and its release as usable energy. This is the physical meaning of negative entropy. Renner emphasizes, however, "This doesn't mean that we can develop a perpetual motion machine." The data can only be deleted once, so there is no possibility to continue to generate energy. The process also destroys the entanglement, and it would take an input of energy to reset the system to its starting state. The equations are consistent with what's known as the second law of thermodynamics: the idea that the entropy of the universe can never decrease. Vedral says "We're working on the edge of the second law. If you go any further, you will break it." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110601134300.htm
bornagain77
August 25, 2012
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By the way... Steve your 70 is a great question. I think I can answer it to your satisfaction when I return -Thanks again.Upright BiPed
August 25, 2012
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I also want to acknowledge the useful distinctions that GPuccio makes between digital and analog information and call attention to steve h's interesting questions about epistemology. Normally, I would get in the game, but I need a day off. Keep up the good work everyone.StephenB
August 25, 2012
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Hi GP, I have just scanned your comments above, but just from that quick scan I can see that we have some deeper misuderstandings that I might have thought, but I am fairly certain that they are just that - misunderstandings. The problem is that I do not have the time at this moment to properly respond. So allow me just to say that I will return later and clarify my thoughts. All the Best.Upright BiPed
August 25, 2012
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I am very impressed with the high level of this discussion. Everyone has contributed something of value. Permit me to pay a special tribute to Upright Biped for providing the substantive argumentation and to GPuccio for making the distinction between ontological and epistemological chance (though he didn't express it in those same terms). Because of the elimination process inherent in the methodology known as the "explanatory filter, many mistakenly believe that ID argues for the existence of ontological chance (chance as a causal agent or an instrumental power) when, in my judgement, it is epistemological chance (events and processes that, from our perspective, produce a range of possible outcomes, each with some probability of occurring) that is being argued for-- an empirical formulation that lends itself to statistical measurement. Indeed, it is the Darwinists and Theistic Evolutionists that assign causal power to chance, suggesting either, in the first instance, that randomness has its own creative power or, in the second, that God gave nature the power to "create itself." Chance cannot do anything because chance has no being--a formal probability is not the same thing a real force. In any case, it should be obvious that Upright Biped has given this matter a great deal of thought and there appear to be no substantive arguments against his position. That is a remarkable development and a high compliment to his preparation skills, given the fact that so many observers would love for him to be wrong.StephenB
August 25, 2012
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I would like to add the following point which I think may have been implicit in GP's last comment. When I look at a distant tree, photons carry information to my eye. The photons are not the tree itself so, as I understand it, they could be considered to be a represenation of it - and they are not arbitrary and can be explained by the rules of nature. As they impinge on my visual system, they indeed start a series of events that result in me building up a mental picture of the distant tree. But as I understand it, the visual system is reacting to the photons - not to the tree itself. So why are the electrical and chemical signals in my visual system considered a coded representation of the tree, but the information arriving at my eye (which is also not a tree, but contains all the information my visual system needs to arrive at its concusion) not?steveh
August 25, 2012
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UB: I am enjoying the discussion too :) About our "disagreements", I owe you some clarifications. 1) I absolutely agree with you that if we use "information" in the sense of the ultimate conscious representation, including cognition and feeling, that only happens in a conscious agent. I have clearly stated that in my answer to CR (Post 59): "Knowledge is always “created” (your word!) in the consciousness of a conscious intelligent agent. Only conscious intelligent agents can “understand”, and therefore “know”. There is no other way. The same is true for the knowledge of the biological designer: it originated in the consciousness of the biological designer." This concept is true both for the origin of information (a conscious representation of the designer) and for the final recognition of information as such (a conscious representation of the agent who recognizes design). 2) At the same time, I feel the need to define "objective information" as any arrangement in a material system that can evoke some specific cognition in a conscious observer. Here, matter is only a vehicle, but the presence of information is confirmed by the objective possibility that some conscious observer can have the specific representation as evoked by that arrangement of matter. 3) Now, in a sense, any physical system bears at least information about itself. We will ignore that, because I believe it does not count for your argument. 4) The situation is different when some material system bears information about some different, distinct material system. Here, your argument begins to be pertinent. 5) Still, I think that we must distinguish between the two different situations I have outlined in my answer to Steveh (post 58): those cases where the information can be explained by physical laws (some cases of analog information); and those cases where the information cannot be explained by physical laws, either because a designed procedure is necessary to "transfer" the specific form to another physical system (some cases of analog information, such as Mount Rushmore); or because the information in the second system is caode by some symbolic digital code (all digital information). Now, I believe that your argument is perfectly correct, but that it could be limited to this last case (digital information), while it can create difficulties in the other cases. The limitation does not create any problem for the biological discourse, because, as I have stated many times, the information in DNA is absolutely digital, coded by an abstrac logical code. 6) Finally, I would like to comment on your argument that any type of information, in the end, must be transferred in digital form to the conscious perceiver, because human senses and cognition operate (as far as we know) through neurological tools that are essentially digital (I hope I have understood well your point). That is true, but still I feel that it does not answer fully Steveh's objection, for the following reasons: a) Even if the final transfer of information to the human perceiver is always through digital tools, an objective difference remains between systems like the shadow or the tracks, and systems like a book or a DNA gene. We must acknowledge that difference, and I think that your argument has different validity in the two cases. b) Even if the final transfer of information to the human perceiver is always through digital tools, we don't really know the true nature of the final conscious representation. c) Humans could not be the only conscious perceivers. The biological designer ia certainly a cosncious perceiver and agent, and is very likely not human. We cannot generalize the way humans perceive nature (through digital neurological tools) to any kind of perceiver. d) Sicking to the concept of "objective information", we can limit our discussion to a recognizable property of the physical system. The cosncious perceiver serves, in this case, only as a tool to recognize the presence of information in the system. How the human observer recognizes that information is not pertinent at this level. So, an objective difference remains between "shadow like" systems, that are vehicles of information about the basic system only because physical laws have "transferred" an analog form to the second system (a process that does not require a designer or an act of design), and digital systems, where the information has been arbitrarily coded, and that therefore require a designer, a design procedure, and a translation procedure, if the correct information has to be transferred to a conscious observer. I hope I have expressed my thoughts clearly. I am obviously bery much interested in your comments :)gpuccio
August 25, 2012
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I have to say that I am really enjoying reading the comments here. Mung and I have disagreements, and GP and I have disagreements. But these are the typical machinations of differing perspectives of related terms, not stark disagreements on observables. And that is what is at issue here: can it be demonstrated that the observations made in the argument are false, or that the conclusions do not follow from the premises? Thus far, that has not been the case.Upright BiPed
August 25, 2012
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Hello steveh
How so? You stated that it’s not logically possible to transfer information without encoding it in matter; However generations of philosophers who knew nothing about photons have managed to conduct perfectly logical discussions based on the apparent fact that they could just see the information from afar
Living organisms have recorded information from their environment and exchanged symbolic representations between each other for eons on end. How does that acknowledgement impact the observations made? To argue against this observation is to say that information can exist in a material universe without a medium of matter or energy. That’s a stretch. We'd have to wonder why we always find it in a medium, wouldn't we?
Modern physicists tell us that information is carried in photons which sometimes act like particles (i.e. matter) and sometimes are more strange.
I am going to take this opportunity to explain a disambiguation. Modern physics reifies the term “information” for the express purpose that it becomes calculable to human investigators. That reification serves a human purpose, but it is an intra-disciplinary mistake to apply it beyond that purpose. To say that an oxygen atom exchanges information with a hydrogen atom to become a water molecule is to simply step in as a human observer and assert that it does. But there is a larger issue. If a water molecule “contains information” merely because it exist, then everything “contains information” and we'll need a new word to describe those things that are actually arranged to “contain information”. We will have taken a very unique material phenomenon within the cosmos (the existence of recorded information) and forced it to be ubiquitous among all matter - and in the process we will have destroyed the meaning of the word we've used to describe it. An empty page of paper will suddenly “contain information” just like one full of words – just so that its physical state becomes calculable to human beings. This is an anthropocentric reification of the word, which if mis-used, destroys the established meaning of the word (from its Greek precursors to its Latin form) and forces the need for an immediate replacement if we are to be able to distinguish an empty page of paper from a written poem. Even so, this reification of the term “information” has become established among physicists and others, and that is why the argument above adds the disambiguation of “recorded information” to specifically distinguish it from the reified “physical information” of physics. Simply put, the transfer of recorded information is a material process which is physically distinguishable from an oxygen atom binding with a hydrogen atom to form a water molecule. So when you step on the ground and leave a footprint (or cast a shadow for that matter) that footprint is nothing more than the state of the ground after being stepped on. For that state to become recorded information – for its form to become instantiated in matter which can in-form a receiver of that information – requires a mechanism capable of bringing that information into being. - - - - - - - - - - - You then make several comments about immaterial entities (ghost, souls, and Deities). I am not sure how these things, which by definition are immeasurable, impact the observations being made in this argument. - - - - - - - - - - -
As for the shadow, I agree that my vision system uses a material representation of the shadow on the rock. However you imply in point 4 that a representation always requires an arrangement of matter which is not reducible to physical law. This may be true of my visual system, but I think that the shadow is also a representation of the robber and it is entirely explained by physical law, as are the footprints.
To say that the “shadow is a representation of the robber” requires you to observe it. It also requires you to know what a robber is, it requires you to know what a shadows is, and that shadows can be cast upon the ground, and that shadows shaped like this come from bodies shaped like that> etc, etc, etc. Suddenly, to say that the “shadow is a representation of the robber” requires quite a lot, particularly an observer, because none of that it is “contained” in the shadow or the ground. The shadow on the ground is no more than the state of the ground. It only becomes a representation of something after you observe it.Upright BiPed
August 25, 2012
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CR,
An arrangement of matter that evokes an effect represents knowledge of how to bring that effect about. For example, I might want to build an army of nanobots that, when injected into a patient, hunt down and kill cancer cells. However, before raw materials could be transformed into said naobots, the requisite knowledge of how to perform that transformation would need to be present. My desire or intention isn’t sufficient for this to occur. And, as a person, it’s uncontroversial that people exhibit intent. Again, this isn’t the case regarding knowledge present in the genome.
Again, the source of the information nor its intent, or lack thereof, is germane to the observations of the transfer. If your point is that the information in the genome exists without intent, that fact in and of itself would still not be germane to the observations of the transfer. If this is indeed the point you are wishing to make, then perhaps the only question would be how you determined that from the evidence. As for myself, I am familiar with the proposition that there is such a thing as a “will to survive” in living things. It is called by various names but is substantially the same phenomena and is generally taken for granted as an emergent property of living things. Since this “will to survive” is only demonstrated within massive biological organization (i.e. living things), it is reasonable to believe that such organization is at least one of the requirements for it to manifest itself. If you've located the ultimate source of that organization and measured it by some means and found it to be without "intention", I would sure like to see your data. If not, then I am not certain what impact your point has on the observations made here.
Again, by knowledge, I’m referring to information which when embedded in a storage medium tends to cause itself to remain there. And, I’m referring to Karl Popper’s definition that knowledge exists independent of anyone’s belief. So, it’s unclear why intent must be present to “cause” an particular transformation of matter.
I've looked over my argument and I don't see the word “intent” anywhere in it. Perhaps you can point out where I have addressed “intent” either arguing for or against it in any way. If I was able to state my case coherently without the need to address it, and indeed didn't address it, then I am not sure why you are asking me to address it now. I am also interested to know what this has to do with showing the observations regarding the transfer of recorded information (TRI) are false or that the logic is invalid.
For example, if you asked for the knowledge of how to build a car but received the knowledge of how to build a truck instead, the knowledge you possess still builds a truck regardless of what you believe it does. Nor does following the instructions result in a car merely because that’s what you intended.
You need to demonstrate that the “intent” of information, or lack thereof, must be measured and/or accounted for in order to observe the material transfer of that information, otherwise I refer you to my previous answer. And since the remainder of your post simply repeats this line of thinking, I will leave it here until you demonstrate the above. While you are working on that, may I suggest that you try to approach the argument on its own terms? For instance, the word “knowledge” is not mentioned anywhere in the argument. There is a reason for that. It is not germane to the observation of the material transfer. You seem to want to conflate the transfer of information with transfer of knowledge. If we were to witness the transfer of information from a book to a child, then perhaps you could argue that we had observed the transfer of knowledge, although I would still argue that all we had witness was the transfer of information, and that knowledge was a separate cognitive phenomenon. In any case, what if we used the transfer of information in a fabric loom in order to control the patterns of thread woven into fabric. Would you then pick up the cloth and say “this is knowledge”? It seems like a rather loose term. Like I said, perhaps you should attack the argument on its own terms, or demonstrate that other issues must be included in order to observe TRI.Upright BiPed
August 25, 2012
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timothya: You are right that the concept of randomness is often misunderstood (on both sides). From an ID point of view, I would distinguish the following meanings: 1) Material phenomena can usually be explained by physical laws. In that sense, we assume that they are completely determined, either we can describe the causal chain in detail, or not. In the second case, we can often get some useful description of the system just the same, by some appropriate probabilistic model. We call such a system a "random system", but the events are determined just the same, and they are only described by a random model. Obviosuly, the knowledge we get through a random model is not so specific as a deterministic knowledge, but is is often very useful just the same. 2) In human design, something different can be observed. A conscious intelligent agent, starting form subjective representations that include cognition and intent, embeds some specific form and function into a physical system. That is what is called "design". 3) Now, the problem arises: what is the origin of that specific form? Does the process violate strict determinism? These are not simple problems. I will try to give some simple answer from my point of view. 4) I would say that the main origin of the specific form embedded in the physycal system is the conscious representation of the designer. In that sense, the final form in some way "expresses" the cognition and intent of the designer's representations. 5) What about determinism? That depends on one's world view. A materialist reductionist will probably say that all conscious representations of the agent are generated by physical laws, and are therefore determined. I reject that view. But the subject is obviously vast. In all cases, the designer, at some point, interacts with physical laws (probably without violating them) through some interface (in humans, the mind-body interface). In the end, new original physical events are created that determine the physical modifications in the final object. 6) What about random systems? The important concept, often outlined by Abel, is that the physical sytem which "receives" the conscious representation must in some way be "neutral": IOWs, it must be physically possible for the system to reach, given the correct inputs, any possible configuration in some configuration space. That allows the designer to fix the specific configuration that conveys the meaning and function. 7) The problem is: in a complex system, where many independent variables determine the output, there are many different possible outputs, and the behaviour of the system can best be described as a random model. Random variation in the genome is one such system. 8) That random variation is invoked by neodarwinism as the engine of change that generates biological information. Obviously, with the "help" of deterministic natural selection. 9) ID is deeply interested in verifying if the random behaviour of random variation in a biological system has really the potentialities to explain what it is supposed to explain, even considering the role of NS. For us in ID, the answer is a very strong and detailed "no". 10) The best alternative explanation is that the biological variation that generates the complex and useful information we observe in living beings is designed and implemented by some conscious intelligent agent.gpuccio
August 25, 2012
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gpuccio, you state:
Random effects are completely deterministic (except maybe in quantum mechanics).
Leaving aside the talking about the ultimate source of randomness which is inherent in space-time events, it is interesting to point out what the ultimate source for randomness is in quantum mechanic events: In the following video, at the 37:00 minute mark, Anton Zeilinger, a leading researcher in quantum teleportation with many breakthroughs under his belt, humorously reflects on just how deeply determinism has been undermined by quantum mechanics by saying such a deep lack of determinism may provide some of us a loop hole when they meet God on judgment day.
Prof Anton Zeilinger speaks on quantum physics. at UCT - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3ZPWW5NOrw
Personally, I feel that such a deep undermining of determinism by quantum mechanics, far from providing a 'loop hole' on judgement day, actually restores free will to its rightful place in the grand scheme of things, thus making God's final judgments on men's souls all the more fully binding since man truly is a 'free moral agent' just as Theism has always maintained. And to solidify this theistic claim for how reality is constructed, the following study came along a few months after I had seen Dr. Zeilinger's video:
Can quantum theory be improved? - July 23, 2012 Excerpt: Being correct 50% of the time when calling heads or tails on a coin toss won’t impress anyone. So when quantum theory predicts that an entangled particle will reach one of two detectors with just a 50% probability, many physicists have naturally sought better predictions. The predictive power of quantum theory is, in this case, equal to a random guess. Building on nearly a century of investigative work on this topic, a team of physicists has recently performed an experiment whose results show that, despite its imperfections, quantum theory still seems to be the optimal way to predict measurement outcomes.,,, However, in the new paper, the physicists have experimentally demonstrated that there cannot exist any alternative theory that increases the predictive probability of quantum theory by more than 0.165, with the only assumption being that measurement (i.e. *conscious observation) parameters can be chosen independently (free choice, i.e. free will, assumption) of the other parameters of the theory.,,, ,, the experimental results provide the tightest constraints yet on alternatives to quantum theory. The findings imply that quantum theory is close to optimal in terms of its predictive power, even when the predictions are completely random. http://phys.org/news/2012-07-quantum-theory.html
So just as I had suspected after watching Dr. Zeilinger's video, it is found that a required assumption of 'free will' in quantum mechanics is what necessarily drives the random (non-deterministic) aspect of quantum mechanics. Moreover it was shown in the paper that one cannot ever improve the predictive power of quantum mechanics by ever removing free will as a starting assumption in Quantum Mechanics! of note: *The act of 'observation' in quantum mechanics is equivalent to measuring,, as well, it is important to note that, despite the intrinsic randomness that the 'free will assumption' places on quantum mechanics, Quantum mechanics, as a scientific theory, is found to exceed General Relativity in 'predictive power':
Wheeler's Classic Delayed Choice Experiment: We have delayed this choice until a time long after the particles "have passed by one side of the galaxy, or the other side of the galaxy, or both sides of the galaxy," so to speak. Yet, it seems paradoxically that our later choice of whether to obtain this information determines which side of the galaxy the light passed, so to speak, billions of years ago. So it seems that time has nothing to do with effects of quantum mechanics. And, indeed, the original thought experiment was not based on any analysis of how particles evolve and behave over time – it was based on the mathematics. This is what the mathematics predicted for a result, and this is exactly the result obtained in the laboratory. http://www.bottomlayer.com/bottom/basic_delayed_choice.htm i.e. "It will remain remarkable, in whatever way our future concepts may develop, that the very study of the external world led to the scientific conclusion that the content of the consciousness is the ultimate universal reality" - Eugene Wigner - (Remarks on the Mind-Body Question, Eugene Wigner, in Wheeler and Zurek, p.169) - received Nobel Prize in 1963 for 'Quantum Symmetries' http://www.informationphilosopher.com/solutions/scientists/wigner/
Somewhat related note:
LIVING IN A QUANTUM WORLD - Vlatko Vedral - 2011 Excerpt: Thus, the fact that quantum mechanics applies on all scales forces us to confront the theory’s deepest mysteries. We cannot simply write them off as mere details that matter only on the very smallest scales. For instance, space and time are two of the most fundamental classical concepts, but according to quantum mechanics they are secondary. The entanglements are primary. They interconnect quantum systems without reference to space and time. If there were a dividing line between the quantum and the classical worlds, we could use the space and time of the classical world to provide a framework for describing quantum processes. But without such a dividing line—and, indeed, with­out a truly classical world—we lose this framework. We must ex­plain space and time (4D space-time) as somehow emerging from fundamental­ly spaceless and timeless physics. http://phy.ntnu.edu.tw/~chchang/Notes10b/0611038.pdf
verse and music:
"See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the LORD your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess... I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; that you may love the LORD your God, that you may obey His voice,and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days." --Deuteronomy 30:15-16, 19-20 Steven Curtis Chapman - God is God (Original Version) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qz94NQ5HRyk
bornagain77
August 25, 2012
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BA: always good to meet the old friends! :)gpuccio
August 25, 2012
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Gpuccio: Your point is pretty much what I have being trying to say. But for some reason the term "determined" appears to be interpreted differently by people on this site. I am not sure, but it seems that "determined" is required to mean "determined by an intelligent entity".timothya
August 25, 2012
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gpuccio, good to see you post again!bornagain77
August 25, 2012
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timothya: Random effects are completely deterministic (except maybe in quantum mechanics). It's their description that is statistical. We are not able to describe some systems in deterministic detail, because we lack the necessary data, and so we use statistical mathemathical objects that describe with some approximation and uncertainty their behaviour. But there is no doubt that the tossing of a coin is deterministic, and that the result is predetermined. We just cannot compute it correctly.gpuccio
August 25, 2012
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critical rationalist: Briefly: I am not sure I understand what you mean: Biological adaptations represent transformations of matter that occur when the requisite knowledge is present. Furthermore, knowledge is independent of anyone’s belief. Nor do all conjectures occur in response to a particular problem. Well, if the requisite knowledge is present, I would call that "implementation", and not "adaptation". If you write a code to implement an algorithm that you know, is that an "adaptation"? Please, clarify what you mean. I cannot “plan” an army of nanobots that kill cancer cells merely because I intend to do so. The transformations of matter that result in nanobots that actually kill cancer cells only occur when the requisite knowledge is present. The origin of that knowledge is the origin of the system of nanobots. I certainly agree with that. To clarify, I’m not asking where the knowledge now in the genome was previously located in some other form, but how the knowledge to adapt matter into biological features was it created. Knowledge is always "created" (your word!) in the consciousness of a conscious intelligent agent. Only conscious intelligent agents can "understand", and therefore "know". There is no other way. The same is true for the knowledge of the biological designer: it originated in the consciousness of the biological designer. The knowledge of how to build a microprocessor cannot be encoded into 8bit ASCII form before that knowledge has been created. Nor can encoding occur merely because I intend it to occur. The encoding process is a transformation of matter that occurs when the requisite knowledge is present. Correct. And the requisite knowledge requires a conscious intelligent agent (the designer). It’s uncontroversial that people exhibit intent. As such, it’s uncontroversial that intent plays a role in the explanation of how the list is ordered. However, this isn’t the case regarding adaptations in the biosphere. Why? How was the knowledge created in those "adaptations"? As such, my knowledge of how to open coconuts is merely a useful rule of thumb, which is limited in reach. For example, in the absence of an explanation, I might collect coconuts picked from other trees, carry them to this same tree, climb it, then drop them on the rocks to open them. Your example is not clear. What do you mean by "rule of thumb"? Your "rule of thumb", although simpler, requires all that is required form what you call "explanatory knowledge": a conscious agent with an intent (opening the nut" and an understanding of the meaning of facts (the coconut opens when it falls on the rock), and the ability to extablish cognitive connections betqeen facts, such as a cuase and effect relationship. It is cognitive knowledge at all effects, although it does not imply a wider understanding of physics. It originates in a conscious mind. Darwinism substitutes the role of consciousness with an artificail and ineffectice non conscious mechanism (natural selection) which can in no way explain what it should explain, least of all the coding and decoding of complex symbolic information in living systems, and the origic of that information. But, anyway, natural selection is a deterministic effect in some particular system, and not certainly a "rule of thumb".gpuccio
August 25, 2012
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Steveh (#35): I believe you are raising an interesting point with your shadow and tracks argument, a point that needs to be addressed. Well, let's say that we are discussing objective information, that is information that is embedded in a material system, and can be "read" and understood by some conscious agent. Let's say that a material object or system B has objective informatio about a distinct material object or system A if sone conscious agent can get useful representations of A through B. In that sense, certainly your shadows or tracks bear information about some distinct physical system. It is also true that, in your examples, the connection between A and B can perfectly be explained by basci physical laws: both the shadow and the track can be explained that way, and require no additional procedure. So, I would say you are right. But we must notice that both the shadow and the track have a common property: they are some form of analog information. IOWs, the shadow (B) takes some form, because of the working of light, that corresponds to the form of A. Now, not all analog information can be explained by mere physical laws. Mount Rushmore, for example, bears analog information that cannot be explained by physical laws, and requires a specific design procedure. But there are certainly many examples of analog information that can be explained by mere physical laws. But what about digital information? In digital information, no physical law can explain the correspondence between the digital arrangement in B and the form in A. A definite procedure is required to embed the information in B (coding), and another definite procedure is required to get the useful information about A from B (decoding). The information about A is embedded in B through an abstract code, a numerical or logical entity. Why am I discussing digital information here? It's very simple. 1) First of all, I believe that UB's argument applies to digital information, and not necessarily to analog information. 2) The information we are debating here, the information in DNA protein genes, is certainly digital. So, UB's argument is completely valid, provided that we do this useful restriciton to digital information. The information in a protein coding gene is digital. It is encoded through a specific logical base three redundant code, usually called the genetic code. It requires a specific procedure to be translated, that is the traslation procedure. We have no detailed and convincing understanding of the procedure by which it was encoded in the beginning. Moreover, as I have tried to emphasize, the symbolic code, the genetic code, has been embedded both in the storing material (DNA genes) and in the translation apparatus (the 20 synthetases, and other components). Both the stored gene and the translating proteins are "code dependent". In two completely different ways. And the code they depend on is the same. So, UB's argument is perfectly to the point: the information in DNA is digital and symbolic. It requires a procedure to be translated. It is in no way explained by any physical law, and is essentially in no way different from the information we manipulate in our own digital machines.gpuccio
August 25, 2012
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Mung posted this:
Regardless of the outcome. Que Sera, Sera
Before the coin is tossed, the outcome is not determined - it might be a head or a tail, with one-half probability either way. After the coin is tossed, the outcome is determined. It is either a head or a tail, there is no doubt about the result. It is determined. Something happens between the before and the after. What was it? Oh, right, the randomising event of tossing the coin. If you don't like the term "determined" to describe what happens when you toss a coin, then use another word. How about "specified". I'm not greatly fussed.timothya
August 25, 2012
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CR "To clarify, I’m not asking where the knowledge now in the genome was previously located in some other form, but how the knowledge to adapt matter into biological features was created" John Ch1:1 In the beginning was the Word (information, knowledge), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Seems quite clear to me really.PeterJ
August 25, 2012
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CR: Pardon, but we routinely observe programmers and engineers in action, so to compare what left signs that are sufficiently similar to point to the same pattern of cause, is reasonable. (Or, are you implicitly assuming that there was and could be no possible designer at the point of origin of life. That is a strong claim that would need to be warranted. Absent a designer being impossible, it is far more reasonable to infer on sign to known cause, than to infer to something that we have every reason to believe is not a credible case on the gamut of the observable cosmos: blind chance and equally blind mechanical necessity.) KFkairosfocus
August 24, 2012
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Nope, it is as vague as it needs to be given the fact that no one knows how to program an organism.
I’m not following you.
By intention, no doubt.
Are you suggesting there can be no explanation for how the knowledge to build biological adaptations, as found in the genome, was created?
Why the jump to an absolute extreme? Just because we don't know how to program an organism now does not even inply we will never know.Joe
August 24, 2012
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cr @23:
All logically conceivable transformations of matter can be classified in the following three ways: transformations that are prohibited by the laws of physics, spontaneous transformations (such as the formation of stars) or transformations which are possible when the requisite knowledge of how to perform them are present.
How can something be physically possible yet logically impossible?
Mung
August 24, 2012
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