Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Violence is Inherent in Atheist Politics

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Progressive hero Ta-Nehisi Coates (an atheist) is conflicted about whether to bring on the guillotines.  From a recent interview with Vox:

When he tries to describe the events that would erase America’s wealth gap, that would see the end of white supremacy, his thoughts flicker to the French Revolution, to the executions and the terror. ‘It’s very easy for me to see myself being contemporary with processes that might make for an equal world, more equality, and maybe the complete abolition of race as a construct, and being horrified by the process, maybe even attacking the process. I think these things don’t tend to happen peacefully.’

Materialist ideas have entailments, including (1) God does not exist; (2) good and evil do not exist as objective transcendent ontological categories; (3) God, who does not exist, cannot endow men with inalienable rights; and (4) men are not image bearers of a non-existent God; they are jumped up hairless apes.

If there is no good and evil and no God-endowed rights, by what standard does the progressive define the eponymous “progress” they claim to want to achieve?  Certainly, there is no transcendent standard.  The answer is that progressives want what that want.  Theirs is a political philosophy bound by nothing and defined by their unbounded will to power.

Coates rejects the ideas of the Declaration of Independence.  A non-existent God does not endow men with the right to life and liberty.  Jumped up hairless apes have no inherent rights.  So why not lop their heads off if they get in the way of Ta-Nehisi Coates’ pursuit of the greater good – i.e., Ta-Nehisi Coates’ idiosyncratic take on economic and racial justice.  After all, as every tyrant from Robespierre to Pol Pot knew, you’ve got to crack a few eggs if you’re going to make an omelet.

Comments
ET - That sounds like you don’t know anything about Intelligent Design. We can test the claim that ATP synthase is irreducibly complex and you cannot say how unguided evolution didit. Well, that doesn't exactly provide an alternative to unguided evolution but okay, how do you test the claim that ATP synthase is irreducibly complex? Yeah less than 2 degrees F in over 120 years. And seeing that we have temperature swings of up to 50 degrees in just a couple days the alleged warming from greenhouse gasses doesn’t even register. Well, daily weather is not the same thing as long term climate trends. And the warming is accelerating. The data is pretty clear. Animal agriculture is the number one cause of any climate change alleged by humans. Well, as I said, I'm sure it's a contributing factor but the IPCC reports disagree with you.JVL
October 13, 2017
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KF - I suggest to you that no-one has ever empirically warranted the claim that the sort of functionally specific complex organisation and associated information in the living cell, and in complex novel body plans can and does come about by blind necessity and chance. By sharp contrast, such FSCO/I — including your comments — routinely comes about by design. this already shows gaps in your understanding. Well, I suppose complex novel body plans could have come about by design but there isn't any evidence of the kind of facilities and support necessary for that kind of complex work . . . at least the way it would be done based on our current understanding. I mean it would take a lot of resources, energy and time. But I'm not sure what kind of 'design' you are promoting: something ongoing or what I believe is called 'front loading'. I will note that trivially, climate is a 33-year moving average of weather, so by definition it changes. Further there are identified secular trends of rising temperatures since the ice age peak, and that there are quasi-periodic oscillations ranging from ocean currents to the sun’s activity that influence weather. Well, I think all those other influences have been taken into account in the IPCC reports. Do you have specialised knowledge that indicates where, specifically, they made errors in their accounts? Again, a gap and a circumstance of assigning Science a status of the new magisterium, which is unwise. I suggest that you would be better advised to look at what you are not being told. Uh . . . all the data is public and anyone can look at it and analyse the analysis. All of this comes back to the issue that we need to look far more carefully at whether we are being induced to make a crooked yardstick our standard of reference, which will lock out the real truth as it cannot align with the crooked. thus, the need for plumb-line cases that allow us to see through the shadow shows of our time. And that is why I again point to the ongoing abortion holocaust of 800+ millions mounting up at another million per week. Clearly abortion is a crucial issue for you but just because you disagree with the laws that have been enacted in multiple nations supporting some forms of abortion doesn't mean that civilisation is on the brink of collapse. A democracy is not always going to render decisions that everyone agrees with. But it's a good and fair system even if you find some of the outcomes disappointing.JVL
October 13, 2017
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JVL:
I can only recall the one that ‘most’ of what is now considered ‘junk’ DNA will be found to have function.
That sounds like you don't know anything about Intelligent Design. We can test the claim that ATP synthase is irreducibly complex and you cannot say how unguided evolution didit. On CO2
And warmer. Along with methane and some others.
Yeah less than 2 degrees F in over 120 years. And seeing that we have temperature swings of up to 50 degrees in just a couple days the alleged warming from greenhouse gasses doesn't even register.
That certainly is a problem but polluting the oceans is not causing climate change.
Animal agriculture is the number one cause of any climate change alleged by humans.ET
October 13, 2017
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JVL, I suggest to you that no-one has ever empirically warranted the claim that the sort of functionally specific complex organisation and associated information in the living cell, and in complex novel body plans can and does come about by blind necessity and chance. By sharp contrast, such FSCO/I -- including your comments -- routinely comes about by design. this already shows gaps in your understanding. On "Climate Change," I normally do not delve but I will note that trivially, climate is a 33-year moving average of weather, so by definition it changes. Further there are identified secular trends of rising temperatures since the ice age peak, and that there are quasi-periodic oscillations ranging from ocean currents to the sun's activity that influence weather. In this context, it is likely that there has been some human influence, locally, regionally and globally, but the models and observations that are used do not even begin to come close to the degree of certainty promoted to policy makers and the public alike. Indeed,over the years they have not accounted successfully for the structure of atmospheric patterns of variation. Again, a gap and a circumstance of assigning Science a status of the new magisterium, which is unwise. I suggest that you would be better advised to look at what you are not being told. All of this comes back to the issue that we need to look far more carefully at whether we are being induced to make a crooked yardstick our standard of reference, which will lock out the real truth as it cannot align with the crooked. thus, the need for plumb-line cases that allow us to see through the shadow shows of our time. And that is why I again point to the ongoing abortion holocaust of 800+ millions mounting up at another million per week. If we cannot see clearly to recognise that this is utterly inexcusable and should be stopped, and that the degree of corruption of key institutions of education, law, government, media and the like that this implies, then we are not fit to think clearly on anything else of significance. KF PS: Do you realise that multi year and multi decadal ocean temperature and salinity patterns directly influence things like hurricanes?kairosfocus
October 13, 2017
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ET - An alternative to untestable nonsense? LoL! Well, if you haven't got an alternative . . . Unlike unguided evolution at least Intelligent Design makes testable claims. I can only recall the one that 'most' of what is now considered 'junk' DNA will be found to have function. CO2 is making the planet greener. And warmer. Along with methane and some others. CO2 is not the problem and never has been. Animal agriculture is responsible for the clear cutting of rain forests. It pollutes the oceans with its runoff. That certainly is a problem but polluting the oceans is not causing climate change.JVL
October 13, 2017
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JVL:
Well, if you have a viable alternative to unguided evolution I’d love to hear it.
An alternative to untestable nonsense? LoL! Unlike unguided evolution at least Intelligent Design makes testable claims.
Animal agriculture does contribute a lot of greenhouse gasses to the atmosphere and is, if I’m not mistaken, man made in that man is dedicating millions of acres to animal production.
CO2 is making the planet greener. CO2 is not the problem and never has been. Animal agriculture is responsible for the clear cutting of rain forests. It pollutes the oceans with its runoff.ET
October 13, 2017
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J-Mac, again, you have slipped away from the framework and pushed in another context. We can infer from such a country that its value of life has been corrupted, which will have implications all across public policy and more; matters not if it has had Christian roots. The context in view is the rise of modern liiberty, the rise of democracy and its latterday decline into a march of folly for the world. Where in the midst of that it is on record for 2350+ years, that evolutionary materialism is corrosive to good order in the community, something that has been shown again and again over the past century. And meanwhile, there is refusal to acknowledge suppressed facts regarding the roots of the reforms that have built the liberties we have enjoyed and are now undermining. KFkairosfocus
October 13, 2017
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ET - People like you, JVL. Ya see, JVL, the scientific truth of unguided evolution is that it is untestable pap. As for climate change the scientific truth is animal agriculture is the worst culprit by far in causing environmental damage. Well, if you have a viable alternative to unguided evolution I'd love to hear it. Animal agriculture does contribute a lot of greenhouse gasses to the atmosphere and is, if I'm not mistaken, man made in that man is dedicating millions of acres to animal production. asauber - This is basic stupidity. Which part of climate change is basic stupidity?JVL
October 13, 2017
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KF@ 78 "...half truths are among the most misleading of perspectives, as they are indeed fact in significant part but the key issue turns on their not providing an overall true and fair view..." Really? Let's test you sensitivity to half-truths: In the country of close to 30 million, where 98% + claimed religious affiliation, about 800 000 abortions were performed each year… Please tell me what half-truths apply to this very fact….J-Mac
October 13, 2017
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basic scientific truths like climate change
This is basic stupidity. Andrewasauber
October 13, 2017
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JVL:
The only real problem are those who distort and misrepresent basic scientific truths like climate change and unguided evolution ...
People like you, JVL. Ya see, JVL, the scientific truth of unguided evolution is that it is untestable pap. As for climate change the scientific truth is animal agriculture is the worst culprit by far in causing environmental damage.ET
October 13, 2017
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JMAC, half truths are among the most misleading of perspectives, as they are indeed fact in significant part but the key issue turns on their not providing an overall true and fair view. That is why I raised some of the points above, these help fill in gaps -- notice how I have spoken to one-sided litanies again and again and have specifically directed you to Bernard Lewis. I have to go now.KFkairosfocus
October 13, 2017
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KF - I repeat, if you make a crooked ideological yardstick your standard, what is actually straight and accurate will never pass the test. How is acknowledging actual historical events making a crooked ideological yardstick? Maybe this can be a first test, as it goes to he heart of what is wrong with today’s mindset: kindly address the ongoing holocaust mounting up at a million per week, and over 40+ years going well past 800 millions, per Guttmacher and UN figures fed into a very conservative growth model. If you don't like the laws then work to change them. Oh, I forget, you're not a US citizen. But you do like to tell them how they should behave. What sort of distortion of education, law, courts, law schools, media, parliaments and cabinets, etc is required to maintain passivity and/or enabling support in the face of such mass slaughter? What is being distorted? People disagree with you and they live in a system where they get to decide the rules. Anyone is welcome to air their views of course as is the norm in a civilised society. How far and wide do you think such corruption of our systems and civilisation will therefore be? That’s a plumbline test that is naturally straight and a true vertical. The system is fine; western civilisation is fine. The only real problem are those who distort and misrepresent basic scientific truths like climate change and unguided evolution and who vote for denialists like Donald Trump. You claim to uphold democracy and the equality of individuals but when the body politic makes a decision you don't like then you declare the system to be corrupt and the voters brainwashed. You've not for democracy at all; you're for everyone having to abide by rules you think are right.JVL
October 13, 2017
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JMAC, you have [that's a sample course unit], and you can see a tight summary at 66. Now, perhaps you can try the plumblline test just above to calibrate your yardstick. Also, reflect for us on Bernard Lewis vs Dawkins with Eisenhower, Petain c 1916 and Truman c 1945 (what about Le May? or Harris?) and on the implications of say what the Romans faced with Hannibal as a side light on what war based on blood feuds that can flare up 1000 years later are telling us . . . including BTW with the Islamists today who call us Romans and think of us through Crusades and premises of Jihad reflected in Q 9:5, 29 etc. This stuff is not dead yet, sadly. KF PS: Post hurricane, net is still gappy and iffy here, as well I face ongoing policy and political crises ever since my return from dealing with a major bereavement. I am unable to devote as much focussed effort as this topic would naturally require. PPS: What grounds the concept of equality of persons, and how does this lead to a responsible view of rights i/l/o say the US DoI 1776? Compare the warning in Plato's The Laws Bk X above on where radical relativism rooted in evolutionary materialism leads: "the highest right is might." Then, ponder the tendency of agit prop operators and strategists to ride piggyback on concerns, perceptions and feelings, imposing a crooked yardstick and thus pushing for power without due accountability nor a proper worldview foundation that can soundly bridge the IS-OUGHT gap. Then explain to us the way we can work towards reform that is sound and genuinely sustainable, without ending in chaos. As to suggesting that a civilisation slaughtering posterity in the womb at 1 million a weak is not in mortal peril, that speaks volumes on the need for a plumbline corrective.kairosfocus
October 13, 2017
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JVL, start from Vindiciae, William of Orange et al, Rutherford, Locke and the US DoI. Show us that you understand from the actual historical and state papers what was going on. Give us a quick and simple summary and then comopare the issues I put on the table in 66 above and in the onward linked. I repeat, if you make a crooked ideological yardstick your standard, what is actually straight and accurate will never pass the test. Maybe this can be a first test, as it goes to he heart of what is wrong with today's mindset: kindly address the ongoing holocaust mounting up at a million per week, and over 40+ years going well past 800 millions, per Guttmacher and UN figures fed into a very conservative growth model. What sort of distortion of education, law, courts, law schools, media, parliaments and cabinets, etc is required to maintain passivity and/or enabling support in the face of such mass slaughter? How far and wide do you think such corruption of our systems and civilisation will therefore be? That's a plumbline test that is naturally straight and a true vertical. KFkairosfocus
October 13, 2017
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KF - Instead of erecting and knocking over strawmen, kindly first read. Like all of us, you have been given a very distorted picture in formal education and informal exposures, we all have a lot of rethinking to do to come to a more balanced and responsible understanding of the rise of and support for modern liberty and democracy, as well as the issue of the ongoing collapse of our civilisation. This last, led by ideologies hostile to its foundations but not realising the consequences of what they so confidently advocate . . . yes, we are in one of those grand marches of folly that trigger civilisational collapse and dark ages. The big worry is this time around nukes are in play. I am merely elucidating well known and well documented historical events. The Catholic Church endorsed and encouraged not only the crusades in the middle east but also the pogroms against the Jews in Europe, the inquisition and the Albigensian and Waldensian crusades in Europe. Here's a typical example from Wikipedia:
The Cathars spent much of 1209 fending off the crusaders. The Béziers army attempted a sortie but was quickly defeated, then pursued by the crusaders back through the gates and into the city. Arnaud-Amaury, the Cistercian abbot-commander, is supposed to have been asked how to tell Cathars from Catholics. His reply, recalled by Caesarius of Heisterbach, a fellow Cistercian, thirty years later was "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius"—"Kill them all, the Lord will recognise His own". The doors of the church of St Mary Magdalene were broken down and the refugees dragged out and slaughtered. Reportedly at least 7,000 innocent men, women and children were killed there by Catholic forces. Elsewhere in the town, many more thousands were mutilated and killed. Prisoners were blinded, dragged behind horses, and used for target practice. What remained of the city was razed by fire. Arnaud-Amaury wrote to Pope Innocent III, "Today your Holiness, twenty thousand heretics were put to the sword, regardless of rank, age, or sex." "The permanent population of Béziers at that time was then probably no more than 5,000, but local refugees seeking shelter within the city walls could conceivably have increased the number to 20,000."
Notice the violation of the notion of sanctuary in a church. Strangely enough, despite mass killings many Cathars refused to renounce their faith. Talk about being willing to die for your beliefs. Perhaps you'd rather discuss what the good Catholic conquistadors did to the native populations in the new world? And they did always have priests with them, blessing them and their actions. To claim mainstream history and research are distortions of well documented events is very strange. As a Caribbean you are well aware of how most blacks came to the new world: in the holds of slave ships captained by Catholics and Protestants. Slavery in the new world went on for longer than it's been outlawed by the US. And, remember, the US was fairly late in banning the practice compared to the rest of the world. You may disagree with those American citizens who choose to exercise their right to free speech in protest of the way they perceive their communities being treated. But they are not despising the foundations of civilisation; they are supporting it by publicly taking a stance against something they feel is wrong. They are doing so despite a lot of pressure to bend or give in. And most of them are Christians. How do you think your ancestors would feel about black athletes pointing out they are still treated poorly over 150 years after slavery was abandoned? Civilisation is not collapsing because of people wanting to be treated equally under the law. It's just coming of age when we are finally getting around to really practicing what we preach.JVL
October 13, 2017
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KF@64, I did. Now I would like to hear your view...J-Mac
October 13, 2017
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PPS: Locke on human understanding, in the intro, sect 5:
Men have reason to be well satisfied with what God hath thought fit for them, since he hath given them (as St. Peter says [NB: i.e. 2 Pet 1:2 - 4]) pana pros zoen kaieusebeian, whatsoever is necessary for the conveniences of life and information of virtue; and has put within the reach of their discovery, the comfortable provision for this life, and the way that leads to a better. How short soever their knowledge may come of an universal or perfect comprehension of whatsoever is, it yet secures their great concernments [Prov 1: 1 - 7], that they have light enough to lead them to the knowledge of their Maker, and the sight of their own duties [cf Rom 1 - 2, Ac 17, etc, etc]. Men may find matter sufficient to busy their heads, and employ their hands with variety, delight, and satisfaction, if they will not boldly quarrel with their own constitution, and throw away the blessings their hands are filled with, because they are not big enough to grasp everything . . . It will be no excuse to an idle and untoward servant [Matt 24:42 - 51], who would not attend his business by candle light, to plead that he had not broad sunshine. The Candle that is set up in us [Prov 20:27] shines bright enough for all our purposes . . . If we will disbelieve everything, because we cannot certainly know all things, we shall do muchwhat as wisely as he who would not use his legs, but sit still and perish, because he had no wings to fly.
PPPS: Locke in Ch 2 sect 5 of his second essay on civil govt:
[2nd Treatise on Civil Gov't, Ch 2 sec. 5:] . . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [This directly echoes St. Paul in Rom 2: "14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them . . . " and 13: "9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law . . . " Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [Eccl. Polity ,preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80, cf. here. Emphasis added.] [Augmented citation, Locke, Second Treatise on Civil Government, Ch 2 Sect. 5. ]
--> just for starters . . .kairosfocus
October 13, 2017
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JVL, you have some homework to read what was linked. Instead of erecting and knocking over strawmen, kindly first read. Like all of us, you have been given a very distorted picture in formal education and informal exposures, we all have a lot of rethinking to do to come to a more balanced and responsible understanding of the rise of and support for modern liberty and democracy, as well as the issue of the ongoing collapse of our civilisation. This last, led by ideologies hostile to its foundations but not realising the consequences of what they so confidently advocate . . . yes, we are in one of those grand marches of folly that trigger civilisational collapse and dark ages. The big worry is this time around nukes are in play. KF PS: Can you trace the lines of influence from Vindiciae Contra Tyrannos, to the Dutch DOI of 1581 onward through Lex Rex and Locke to the frame of the US DoI 1776 and associated calls to days of prayer, repentance and thanksgiving during the American Revolution? If not, ponder how if one makes a crooked yardstick his or her standard of judgement, then what is actually straight and accurate will always be rejected. Thus, we need plumbline facts, truths and principles to help us sort out the current grand mess of endarkenment under false colours of enlightenment and "science" (= evolutionary materialist scientism and fellow travellers) multiplied by the impact of cultural marxism under colours of critical studies. The recent media shadow show over the US flag and anthem is an iconic illustration of how many have been indoctrinated to despise the foundations of our civilisation and do not even begin to understand where the path they have begun to tread can easily end. I suggest pondering 66 above.kairosfocus
October 13, 2017
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RVB8:
‘White Rose’, Catholic? So what? What a tiny point to fixate upon . . .
utterly revealing of your attitude to truth, fairness etc, and further reinforces how your whole argument collapses. You made a production about my highlighting protestantism as a rhetorical pivot. That fails, and everything else with it, as you have revealed disregard for truth as a key problem. KF PS: Your patent antichristian bigotry again leads you to use broadbrush dismissives about "religion," failing to recognise that freedom of speech and the press were only feasible once we had printing, the rise of newspapers etc and of widespread literacy. Thhese are factors critical to a public with an informed and reasonably factual, responsive opinion, thus also to the rise of Democracy. The first time and place in history where this was met, was lace C17, in NW Europe and E Seaboard N America. And that was a zone then under Protestant Christendom, which over the next 100 - 150 years then became the birthplace of modern representative, consitutional democracy with recognition of freedoms and rights. Which are meaningless under evolutionary materialism, along with inherent responsible rational "libertarian" freedom of the individual -- a matter that atheists here have never been able to cogently address. All under the much despised Christian religion. Prior to this, relative freedom of informed opinion and capability of contributing materially to governance were only possible among the educated elites, and that is the level at which discussions happened for thousands of years. See 66 above on a more realistic, historically anchored view of what has always been the threat to a community of a just peace.kairosfocus
October 13, 2017
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KF - Those cast into confusion or dismay by those ever so eager to deflect attention from the record of atheism and its fellow traveller ideologies by trying to taint and trash the Judaeo-Christian heritage of our civilisation, the underlying worldview of ethical theism, together with the scriptures and also to play the one sided litany game (notice, too, how soon it reached tainting the US Flag and Anthem once given free reign . . . ) Are you denying the historical record of centuries of persecution and conquest by Christians over Muslims, Jews and other Christians in the middle ages? Does 'the underlying worldview of ethical theism' include IS and the prevalence of terrorist acts perpetrated in the last 20 years? Surely you remember when blacks were being lynched by southern white Americans who, along with their slave-holding ancestors, were faithful church attendees? Here's a question for you: how did your own ancestors arrive in the Caribbean? Did they come freely of their own accord? And is the Christian faith you hold the same as that followed by your ancestors a few hundred years ago? How did you get to where you are now?JVL
October 12, 2017
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kairos, when religion rules,( throughout human history), it ithe great 'silencer', of debate. It is with the rise of enlightenment values, and the errosion of religious rule, that freedom flourishes. It's why I, an atheist, can attack you, a fantasist!rvb8
October 12, 2017
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kairos, 'White Rose', Catholic? So what? What a tiny point to fixate upon, another ID favourite tactic. My argument falls apart? Really? Let's try it again then, without my failure to realise the 'White Rose' were Catholic, not Protestant. The Concentration Camp guards who were strict (very often strict), Catholics, or Protestant; where do they fit in your scheme of confronting evil? The uncountable brave communists (misguided, sure), who did fight and die to prevent Hitler's rise, where do they fit in your scheme of bravery? Again Kairos, your 'hyper-selectivity' (and others here, Barry, and NEWS stand out), for choosing who is, and who is not moral, is on full display.rvb8
October 12, 2017
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EMH, in this contest, "Religions" is far too broad a term, leading to promotion of what boils down to little more than prejudice and an easy excuse for broad-brush anti-Christian bigotry that is further fed by a one-sided litany against the foundations of our civilisation. I think a safer focus would be that power is addictive, attracts those whose moral compass is deficient, and that power elites can often hire ruthless violent or manipulative henchmen. Multiply by the notorious madness of the mob, and we have a much better warranted and actionable explanation of much that has gone wrong. Bring to bear the spiral of silencing when evil dominates in a society and you can see how marches of ruinous folly and especially murderous folly come about. That holds whether a society is "religious" or "secular humanist," or even "post modern," so evils and follies need little explanation in history, it is reformation and the softening of hearts that opens a critical mass to move towards the right, good, protective etc that need explanation . . . and the role of the Judaeo-Christian tradition in that is well documented though too often suppressed and denied in our day. Then, to address reform, bring to bear the question of what grounds duty, OUGHT. Post Hume's guillotine, this can only be found at world-root level; we need an IS that inherently and inextricably bridges to and grounds OUGHT. The only serious candidate -- yes, I point to comparative difficulties analysis at world roots level -- is the inherently good creator God, a necessary and maximally great being, worthy of loyalty and the responsible, reasonable service of doing the good in accord with our evident nature. That's a start-point: rights thus duties inhere in our nature as responsible, rational, morally governed creatures. Where your right to life entails our duty of care to respect and protect that life. Also, even our reasoning is guided by a felt sense of duty to the right, true, just, fair, warrant etc, or else it becomes the servant of deceit and en-darkenment under false colours of enlightenment. And, much more. KFkairosfocus
October 12, 2017
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RVB8, you don't even know enough to know the White Rose martyrs were Roman Catholic. Your argument falls apart from the outset. KFkairosfocus
October 12, 2017
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J-Mac: Ask yourself what changed the balance on valuing life leading to the rise of mass abortions, and especially what happened in Russia, but the context of the US says much the same. KFkairosfocus
October 12, 2017
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@60 Since both sides, religious and secular, have blood on their hands, what do you think the solution is or should be?J-Mac
October 12, 2017
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@57 "...the current abortion holocaust of 800+ millions and mounting up globally at a million per week did not happen in a vacuum..." I'm a bit confused about this statement... Is this supposed to imply that atheists are responsible for the majority or perhaps even all of 800+ million abortions per year?J-Mac
October 12, 2017
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kairos @57, I'm living in a totalitarian regime, which is noticably becoming more strict; less inter-net freedom, more paperwork, more arrests in Hong Kong, and more Party Propoganda. Not quite North Korea yet, or Soviet Russia, or NAZI Germany, but intriguing to me, one who can flee, (my students can not). Kairos, you have a fondness, almost farytale fondness, of Protestant heroes and fighters. Individuals of great courage who stood up to tyrrany, and fought the good fight; your example of the group of university students in Berlin resisting NAZISM, the 'White Rose', is one; very brave young men and women,; we agree! Tell me, the guards at extermination camps who were also church going Protestants, and Catholics, do they fit into your equation? How about the well documented communists in Germany who fought Hitler from the early thirties, died for their convictions of universal human equality, do they have a place in your scheme of morality? Like all ID folk you display the all too evolved human fault of, 'hyper-selectivity'.rvb8
October 12, 2017
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It's clear religions have perpetrated many horrors. It's equally clear the solution is not atheism, which results in even worse horrors. You may point to secularism as being the cure, but secularism just hides the violence and makes it "hygienic." E.g. Iceland "eliminating" Down's syndrome by killing all the babies with Down's syndrome. Arguably this is even worse because the violence is hidden.EricMH
October 12, 2017
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