Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Voice from the audience: “So when will Darwinism be history?”

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Last night I was out giving a talk on the origin and development of the intelligent design controversy, when an engineer audience member asked me, “How long do you give Darwinism before it collapses?”

I found providing an answer difficult because I am not psychic, so I must rely on near term, high impact information when making predictions.

(For example, I figured that ID would become big news in the middle of the first decade of the 21st century because events recorded around 1991-2001 in the United States could have no other outcome – absent, of course, a nuclear holocaust or some other “all-bets-are-off” scenario, but you can’t let unlikely events distract you when you are making predictions based on the flow of normal events.)

In response to him, I pointed out that the Catholic Church is now spreading the news on prayer cards in many languages around the world that “we are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution Each of us is the result of a thought of God”. That is certain to have impact, but I am uncertain how to evaluate its strength.

So finally, I told him, “Look, I don’t think we are going to get anywhere understanding the origin of life or of species until we understand what information is and how it relates to the other factors in the universe.”

Information in life forms clearly does not arise the way Darwin thought it did. Even species don’t seem to arise the way Darwin thought they did. The recent challenge to demonstrate it on this blog did not turn up much. And that was supposed to be Darwin’s big contribution … sigh …

But aw, it’s been worse. The Washington Post was reduced to flogging up the idea that the introduction of Ontario squirrels to the Washington area by an ill-advised naturalist in the early twentieth century was an instance of natural selection at work. Yeah. Read all about it ….

Not  quite sure how to answer the guy’s question, I was reminded  of someone I had quoted in By Design or by Chance?:

The key to a scientific understanding of design is not theology, but information theory. If design is a part of nature, then the design is embedded in life as information. But many people are not used to thinking in terms of an immaterial quantity like information. As G.C. Williams writes:

“Information doesn’t have mass or charge or length in millimeters. Likewise, matter doesn’t have bytes. You can’t measure so much gold in so many bytes. It doesn’t have redundancy, or fidelity, or any of the other descriptors we apply to information. This dearth of shared descriptors makes matter and information two separate domains of existence, which have to be discussed separately, in their own terms.” (G.C. Williams, “A Package of Information” in J. Brockman, ed., The Third culture: Beyond the Scientific Revolution (New York, Simon and Schuster, 1995) , p. 43.)

Williams’ two separate domains unite in life forms. But how separate are these domains?

Have we misunderstood the history of life because we are blinded by the influence of materialist theories? Do we look for a materialist explanation for information (= Darwinism) when it doesn’t and can’t exist?

So I ended up telling the questioner that I can predict this far: Scientists will not find serious answers by trying to prop up Darwinism but by looking more closely at the nature of information and how it relates to matter.

When we understand the history of life better, Darwin’s natural selection will be shown to play at best a minor, conservative role in maintaining fitness. We have yet to discover the patterns that govern the history of life.

I now wish I had remembered to point out that, historically, scientists have spent a lot of time and energy defending failing theories, before they entertain better ones.

 

Comments
bebbo,
There’s been more than 150 years for ID to become just that. That it hasn’t should tell you something more important ID.
Should it really? I am tempted to play the "why" game some more, but I'm afraid you aren't getting the point. Your challenge "how many Darwinists have died" has nothing to do with Patrick's thought “I doubt it’ll ever completely die. It’ll lose relevance as its supporters die of old age…but I don’t expect them to change their minds.” Now you've highlighted the reason that your question is irrelevant and you don't even understand why. During the 150 years that your Darwinsts were dying the cell has gone from a black box to an integrated factory to a city of complex information networks. The paradigm of "simple to complex" has been turned on its head. The mantra "slow, steady and inexorable incremental change" has failed. Those who have been able to cling to Darwinian ideas in the face of these changes will be less and less able to convince those coming up behind them - those who've grown up with the ideas of the information age and the lessons of ID. What should 150 years of Darwinism really tell us about the effects of a decade or so of ID? That Darwinism is done.Charlie
August 14, 2006
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Charlie responded to my comment by asking "why?". The point was that many supporters of Darwinism have already died since 1859, but Darwinism (as you people like to call it) continues as the scientific explanation for the origin of species. In other words, you don't need its supporters to die, you need a scientific theory that better explains the data and is fruitful for research. There's been more than 150 years for ID to become just that. That it hasn't should tell you something more important ID.bebbo
August 14, 2006
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Darwinism BECAME history in 1873, 12 years after its inception when St George Jackson Mivart asked the question - How can natural selection be involved with a structure that has not yet appeared? Like all other critics of the Darwinian myth, Mivart never existed. Don't take my word for it. Examine the indexes of the several books by Mayr, Gould, Provine and Dawkins and try to find reference to my several sources all critics of Darwinism. They don't exist either. The Darwinian, atheist "prescribed" ideologues even found it necessary to dismiss two of their own, Julian Huxley, who rightfully claimed evolution was finished, and Theodosius Dobzhansky who proved that selection cannot exceed the species barrier. What is even more baffling is why Huxley and Dobzhansky remained Darwinians! I guess they were just "born that way." It is hard to believe isn't it? I love it so! "A past evolution is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable." John A. DavisonJohn A. Davison
August 14, 2006
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As to NDE's demise or end to Darwinism Dogma. It's already begun on many practical levels. When Intel's President refused to fully endorse SciAm's Editor position to push more forcefully for Darwinism in academics, that was a rebuff from the practical world to the impractical. Why would Intel care about a historical science and entangling itself in speculative arguments that are so devisive and as yet unproven? Likewise Microsoft 2020 research program noted the need for more computational systems, math and engineering focus. No one would recommend large outlays on systems research unless they were sure of the direction. They're putting their money on engineering, software and hardware design concepts, math and physics. I didn't read anything in the PDF paper which said they were going to try and randomly mutate a new lifeform. Perhaps they too are aware of the failures? Fruitfly experiments? No, it was all practical recommendations for upgrading the Biological sciences with more emphasis on core math, physics, computers and engineering. Very practical, they realized we're still at the beginning of understanding all the internal nano mechanisms of genetics and cellular interactions. It is one thing to identify parts, quite another to understand fully how to reverse engineer and produce working micro replicas. The more science engineers mimic different pieces and produce such replicas - the more the Design Paradigm will take hold. On the practical level, its already happening. Intellectual elites, especially those that are married to Darwin dogma, will never let go. Much like an eternal vow, it will follow them to their grave.Michaels7
August 14, 2006
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bebbo, Why?Charlie
August 14, 2006
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Patrick said: "I doubt it’ll ever completely die. It’ll lose relevance as its supporters die of old age…but I don’t expect them to change their minds." It's what, nearly 150 years since the publication of Darwin's Origin of Species. How many supporters do you think have died during that time?bebbo
August 14, 2006
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BarryA -- For a peer-reviewed paper that comes to essentially the same conclusion, see Three subsets of sequence complexity and their relevance to biopolymeric information:
But under no known circumstances can self-ordering phenomena like hurricanes, sand piles, crystallization, or fractals produce algorithmic organization. Algorithmic "self-organization" has never been observed [70] despite numerous publications that have misused the term [21,151-162]. Bone fide organization always arises from choice contingency, not chance contingency or necessity. [emphasis mine]
johnnyb
August 14, 2006
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I come from the land down under. You guys get to have all your fun while I have to go to work. See you later.idnet.com.au
August 14, 2006
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Inquisitive -- Of course Darwin knew of biological information, though he certainly didn't have much background in information theory nor did he know exactly what was being transmitted. But in order to reproduce requires a concept of information. Information is central to biology, even before the information age. The way that Darwin attempted to solve a part of it (which indicates he at least knew it was a problem) is called "pangenesis". It was also knowledge of the information issue which led Weismann to reject pangenesis and propose the "germ line", which, while I disagree with the Weismann barrier as being impassible, the germ line/soma distinction has been established essentially beyond question. This was all based on ideas of biological information which were present at the time. A way of formulating information questions before the "information age" or before knowledge of DNA is like this: We know that organism C is like it's parents organism A and organism B. What is it that causes these similarities? For something to be inheritted, there had to be a "something" to inherit. So, what creates that something? Darwin proposed natural selection operating on random modifications (though he thought these were somatic changes, not internal mutations like current neo-Darwinists). Even with a primitive view of information, the information question was still central to biology.johnnyb
August 14, 2006
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Tiggy, You said you want a definition of "information as it applies to life forms, not an analogy to English sentences." Most science is described in words that only have meaning by analogy. I think the analogy between language and DNA sequences is very compelling, and is used by Darwinian evolutionary biologists and ID evolutionary biologists alike. If we taks a single cell, single species, entirely functional genome, we have no redundancy. There is a minimum description of that genome. That may represent the information content of the genome. There is also spacial and structural information that is most likely needed to make the cell. There has been recent work on Mycoplasma trying to determine the minimum genetic information needed for a functioning organism. They are in the ball park of 400 or so DNA encoded specified long protein sequences. This may be close to the minimum of specified information needed for life. You also wrote "there are many known natural processes that increase DNA complexity (gene duplication with point mutations, etc.) and thus produce novel morphological changes when expressed." What you refer to is microevolutionary changes through adaptive mutation. This has not been shown to be very powerful. I think it it is ID's contention that this process is highly constrained and merely tinkers around the adaptive edges of creative processes. The concept of specified complexity is used to denote the difference between complexity and information content. In very small systems like Mycoplasma, it may possibly be quantifiable, but in very large genomes, like ours, there may be many layers of complexity and many forms of compression that remain to be discovered. A good example of compression is the specific immune globulin production mechanism. Here millions of highly specific products arise from relatively few genes. These systems scream out design.idnet.com.au
August 14, 2006
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"If so, there are many known natural processes that increase DNA complexity (gene duplication with point mutations, etc.) and thus produce novel morphological changes when expressed." Tiggy, what are the novel morphological changes you're referencing? ofro, What macro-evolutionary skills are required to cure cancer? Recognizing mutations that cause disease, malformations, etc., leads to understanding 1)how to repair specific mutations, 2) or other regulatory factors, or 3) blocking factors. 4) and what caused the original mutation. Therefore Reverse Engineering cell design, genetics, microstructures leads to insight and cures, or advice of modified behavior patterns. Whereas RM guessing on past scenarios leads to more guessing on past scenarios. OTH, GMO design is succeeding and proceeding forward. The evidence is in practical commercial applications. We've been down this road before. MacroEvolution is not required understanding in order to do operational genetics or in medical care. What is required is computational, engineering and systems analysis. There seems to be a misinterpretation of mutations with that of on/off switches for the regulatory function of anatomical designs. The evolution paradigm overstates mutations power.Michaels7
August 14, 2006
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"They sure can find cures for whatever desease, but they won’t find those cures because Darwinian assumptions." Just curious Mats - what ID assumptions would you use that are different than 'Darwinian assumptions', and how would using those different assumptions be better for find cures for diseases?Tiggy
August 14, 2006
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Thanks again BarryA. I've already read that paper by Dr.Dembski some time ago too. It's probably me, but I just can't find any place where the paper gives a definition of information as it applies to life forms. There are lots of nifty analogies and examples using probabilities of poker hands, and archers shooting arrows, and rats in a maze, etc., but no rigorous definition of information as it applies to life forms. I would greatly appreciate it if you could maybe copy the relevant passage and post it here, thanks. Also, I couldn't find anything in the paper about the information content of DNA as in your first answer. As I asked before, does one equate information with the complexity of the DNA molecules? "I think the problem is mainly that information isn’t a single quantity. I like Gitt’s classes of information, though noone has yet developed a quantitative version of any of the additional levels. We can only, currently, quantitatively talk about statistical information, which is not very relevant."Tiggy
August 14, 2006
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Ofro, They sure can find cures for whatever desease, but they won't find those cures because Darwinian assumptions.Mats
August 14, 2006
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Tiggy, Go here: http://www.arn.org/docs/dembski/wd_idtheory.htmBarryA
August 14, 2006
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Tiggy -- I think the problem is mainly that information isn't a single quantity. I like Gitt's classes of information, though noone has yet developed a quantitative version of any of the additional levels. We can only, currently, quantitatively talk about statistical information, which is not very relevant. I think what we are going to find is that at the level of semantics is where there will be major constraints. Shared semantics is what allows pieces to join together and work. However, I do not think it will be quantifiable with a number. Instead it will be envisaged as "rules" and "importance of rules". And I think that what we will find is a distinction between "core" and "ancillary" rules, and that "core" rules cannot be added to stochastically. I defend such a notion here if anyone is interested.johnnyb
August 14, 2006
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Thanks BarryA, I am already quite familiar with the workings of DNA. However, what I was asking for is a rigorous scientific [b]definition[/b] of information as it applies to life forms, not an analogy to English sentences. Are you equating information with the complexity of the DNA molecules? If so, there are many known natural processes that increase DNA complexity (gene duplication with point mutations, etc.) and thus produce novel morphological changes when expressed. Also, I am still curious as to how to [b]measure[/b] the information content of a life form. Any info on that? Thanks again for responding. I want to be sure I understand the ID position correctly.Tiggy
August 14, 2006
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StuartHarris: " ..... young students and researchers in the life sciences come to the conclusion that they cannot make any original contributions to science by following the Darwinian paradigm. They will realize that following Darwinism will consign them to being stamp collectors rather than real scientists." I think you are painting with a fairly broad brush. Do you mean to say that they can't work on finding a cure for cancer, diabetes or heart disease?ofro
August 14, 2006
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Gil Dodgen told me once that Darwinism will end when a critical mass of young students and researchers in the life sciences come to the conclusion that they cannot make any original contributions to science by following the Darwinian paradigm. They will realize that following Darwinism will consign them to being stamp collectors rather than real scientists. This realization will at some point lead them to information sciences and to new non-Darwinian conclusions. Stu Harris www.theidbookstore.comStuartHarris
August 14, 2006
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Inquisitive Brain, Information was not on anyone's radar until after the discovery of DNA in the 1950's, a hundred years after Darwin wrote Origin.BarryA
August 14, 2006
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Information in life forms clearly does not arise the way Darwin thought it did.
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but Darwin knew nothing of "biological information," right? Denyse, are you equivocating information with Darwin's view of the biological process of variation-selection-inheritance? Did Darwin even know anything about information in general? Was that even on the academic radar? I'm only slightly familiar with Darwin's views, but I've read the Origin several times, once for a class on evolution and another time when writing a research paper on the history of biology. I have not read Darwin's letters to friends et al, so my knowledge of his wider view could be limited.Inquisitive Brain
August 14, 2006
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In a way, I agree with Patrick on this one. Darwinism will not die totaly, but it might loose great chunks of its cultural and scientific relevance. I guess that is some form of death. Probably one needs to first say what he means with "death of Darwinism". Does he mean death within the scientific community? Secondly, we must not forget Darwinism's great apeal: "Evolution is unproved and unprovable. We believe it only because the only alternative is special creation, and that is unthinkable." (Keith Sir A., in Wysong, 1976, p31) .. "Evolution itself is accepted by zoologists, not because it has been observed to occur...or can be proved by logical coherent evidence, but because the only alternative, special creation, is clearly incredible." (Watson D.M.S., "Adaptation," Nature, Vol. 123, 1929, 233, in Wysong R.L., "The Creation-Evolution Controversy", 1976, p31).Mats
August 14, 2006
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Tiggy, Here is a brief introduction to the subject: DNA and Other Designs Stephen C. Meyer Copyright (c) 2000 First Things 102 (April 2000): 30-38. . . . In 1953, James Watson and Francis Crick elucidated the structure of the DNA molecule. Soon thereafter, molecular biologists discovered how DNA stores the information necessary to direct protein synthesis. In 1955 Francis Crick first proposed the “sequence hypothesis” suggesting that the specificity of amino acids in proteins derives from the specific arrangement of chemical constituents in the DNA molecule. According to the sequence hypothesis, information on the DNA molecule is stored in the form of specifically arranged chemicals called nucleotide bases along the spine of DNA’s helical strands. Chemists represent these four nucleotides with the letters A, T, G, and C (for adenine, thymine, guanine, and cytosine). By 1961, the sequence hypothesis had become part of the so–called “central dogma” of molecular biology as a series of brilliant experiments confirmed DNA’s information–bearing properties. As it turns out, specific regions of the DNA molecule called coding regions have the same property of “sequence specificity” or “specified complexity” that characterizes written codes, linguistic texts, and protein molecules. Just as the letters in the alphabet of a written language may convey a particular message depending on their arrangement, so too do the sequences of nucleotide bases (the A’s, T’s, G’s, and C’s) inscribed along the spine of a DNA molecule convey a precise set of instructions for building proteins within the cell. The nucleotide bases in DNA function in precisely the same way as symbols in a machine code. In each case, the arrangement of the characters determines the function of the sequence as a whole. As Richard Dawkins has noted, “The machine code of the genes is uncannily computer–like.” In the case of a computer code, the specific arrangement of just two symbols (0 and 1) suffices to carry information. In the case of DNA, the complex but precise sequencing of the four nucleotide bases (A, T, G, and C) stores and transmits the information necessary to build proteins. Thus, the sequence specificity of proteins derives from a prior sequence specificity—from the information—encoded in DNA . . . The empirical difficulties that attend self–organizational scenarios can be illustrated by examining a DNA molecule. The . . . structure of DNA depends upon several chemical bonds. There are bonds, for example, between the sugar and the phosphate molecules that form the two twisting backbones of the DNA molecule. There are bonds fixing individual (nucleotide) bases to the sugar–phosphate backbones on each side of the molecule. Notice that there are no chemical bonds between the bases that run along the spine of the helix. Yet it is precisely along this axis of the molecule that the genetic instructions in DNA are encoded. Further, just as magnetic letters can be combined and recombined in any way to form various sequences on a metal surface, so too can each of the four bases A, T, G, and C attach to any site on the DNA backbone with equal facility, making all sequences equally probable (or improbable). The same type of chemical bond occurs between the bases and the backbone regardless of which base attaches. All four bases are acceptable; none is preferred. In other words, differential bonding affinities do not account for the sequencing of the bases. Because these same facts hold for RNA molecules, researchers who speculate that life began in an “RNA world” have also failed to solve the sequencing problem—i.e., the problem of explaining how information present in all functioning RNA molecules could have arisen in the first place . . . To see the distinction between order and information, compare the sequence “ABABABABAB ABAB” to the sequence “Time and tide wait for no man.” The first sequence is repetitive and ordered, but not complex or informative. Systems that are characterized by both specificity and complexity (what information theorists call “specified complexity”) have “information content.” Since such systems have the qualitative feature of aperiodicity or complexity, they are qualitatively distinguishable from systems characterized by simple periodic order. Thus, attempts to explain the origin of order have no relevance to discussions of the origin of information content. Significantly, the nucleotide sequences in the coding regions of DNA have, by all accounts, a high information content—that is, they are both highly specified and complex, just like meaningful English sentences or functional lines of code in computer software. Yet the information contained in an English sentence or computer software does not derive from the chemistry of the ink or the physics of magnetism, but from a source extrinsic to physics and chemistry altogether. Indeed, in both cases, the message transcends the properties of the medium. The information in DNA also transcends the properties of its material medium. Because chemical bonds do not determine the arrangement of nucleotide bases, the nucleotides can assume a vast array of possible sequences and thereby express many different biochemical messages. If the properties of matter (i.e., the medium) do not suffice to explain the origin of information, what does? Our experience with information–intensive systems (especially codes and languages) indicates that such systems always come from an intelligent source—i.e., from mental or personal agents, not chance or material necessity. This generalization about the cause of information has, ironically, received confirmation from origin–of–life research itself. During the last forty years, every naturalistic model proposed has failed to explain the origin of information—the great stumbling block for materialistic scenarios. Thus, mind or intelligence or what philosophers call “agent causation” now stands as the only cause known to be capable of creating an information–rich system, including the coding regions of DNA, functional proteins, and the cell as a whole. The entire article can be found at www.firstthings.com.BarryA
August 14, 2006
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So, just another way of expressing it, what the NDEs believe is that the natural order of design (information) followed by structure (manifestation or implementation of the design) was reversed. Much like a kite that would end up flying and then later developing an electronic piloting system on board after it spent some time in the air. And they find ID implausible!Ekstasis
August 14, 2006
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"Information in life forms clearly does not arise the way Darwin thought it did." Can someone please give me a scientifically rigorous definition of information as it applies to life forms? How does one measure the information in a life form? If information is not rigorously defined or measurerable as it applies to life forms, how can one tell if the information in each subsequent generation of animals has increased or decreased? I have searched the ID literature thoroughly but haven't found explanations for this anywhere. Thanks for assisting this neophyte!Tiggy
August 14, 2006
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I doubt it'll ever completely die. It'll lose relevance as its supporters die of old age...but I don't expect them to change their minds.Patrick
August 14, 2006
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