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Was Blyth the true scientist and Darwin merely a plagiarist and charlatan?

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Edward Blyth
Edward Blyth (1810-1873)

Of course today, for biologists, Darwin is second only to God, and for many he may rank still higher.

— Michael White, 2002

1. Was Darwin a plagiarist and charlatan of limited intellect rather than the deity his followers portray him to be?

2. Was the creationist Edward Blyth the true pioneer of natural selection?

3. Was Blyth’s conception of natural selection as a mechanism of preservation versus a mechanism of innovation the more accurate characterization of what natural selection really is?

I wish to remain open-minded on these issues as they deal with history, and history is difficult to reconstruct. I assert is that these hypotheses are worth exploring, though not necessarily absolute truth. However, as I studied the topic further, it became clear a cloud of suspicion regarding Darwin could not be put to rest.

I now turn to the work of a very prominent anthropologist and ecologist by the name of Loren Eiseley (1907-1977). Eiseley was the head of the Anthropology Department at University of Pennsylvania and president of the American Institute of Human Paleontology before becoming the Provost of the University of Pennsylvania. By all counts he was a first rate scholar. He published several books about Darwin: Charles Darwin, Darwin’s Century, and Darwin and the Mysterious Mr. X: New Light on the Evolutionists.

Edward Blyth in Wikipedia:

Loren Eiseley, Professor of Anthropology and the History of Science at the University of Pennsylvania, spent decades tracing the origins of the ideas attributed to Darwin. In a 1979 book, he claimed that “the leading tenets of Darwin’s work “the struggle for existence, variation, natural selection and sexual selection” are all fully expressed in Blyth’s paper of 1835. He also cites a number of rare words, similarities of phrasing, and the use of similar examples, which he regards as evidence of Darwin’s debt to Blyth.

The above is taken from Darwin and the Mysterious Mr. X: New Light on the Evolutionists which was, curiously enough, published posthumously by Eiseley!

My hypothesis is that Edward Blyth should have been given far more credit for the theory of natural selection. Because Blyth was a creationist, he did not see natural selection as an adequate mechanism for biological innovation. He believed natural selection as primarily a means of preserving species, not primarily creating large scale biological innovations. Even though a creationist, he seemed open to some forms of evolution (as creationists are today), and it would be hard to argue that he believed in the absolute fixity of species. Blyth’s position on natural selection would be consistent with many IDers and creationists today.

It was Darwin who promoted the hypothesis that natural selection could be a designer substitute, but the basic concept of natural selection is attributable to Blyth. At the end of the essay I will provide links to papers by Blyth which I believe Darwin plagiarized. Keep in mind, Darwin’s book was published in 1859, 24 years after Blyth stated the fundamental tenets of Natural Selection. Here are a few highlights however:

Blyth in 1836:

It is a general law of nature for all creatures to propagate the like of themselves: and this extends even to the most trivial minutiae, to the slightest individual peculiarities; and thus, among ourselves, we see a family likeness transmitted from generation to generation.

When two animals are matched together, each remarkable for a certain given peculiarity, no matter how trivial, there is also a decided tendency in nature for that peculiarity to increase; and if the produce of these animals be set apart, and only those in which the same peculiarity is most apparent, be selected to breed from, the next generation will possess it in a still more remarkable degree; and so on, till at length the variety I designate a breed, is formed, which may be very unlike the original type.

The examples of this class of varieties must be too obvious to need specification: many of the varieties of cattle, and, in all probability, the greater number of those of domestic pigeons, have been generally brought about in this manner. It is worthy of remark, however, that the original and typical form of an animal is in great measure kept up by the same identical means by which a true breed is produced.

The original form of a species is unquestionably better adapted to its natural habits than any modification of that form; and, as the sexual passions excite to rivalry and conflict, and the stronger must always prevail over the weaker, the latter, in a state of nature, is allowed but few opportunities of continuing its race. In a large herd of cattle, the strongest bull drives from him all the younger and weaker individuals of his own sex, and remains sole master of the herd; so that all the young which are produced must have had their origin from one which possessed the maximum of power and physical strength; and which, consequently, in the struggle for existence, was the best able to maintain his ground, and defend himself from every enemy.

The concepts of natural selection and even sexual selection are laid out plainly, even the concept of adaptation and the struggle for existence!

Here is Blyth in 1836 again:

The true physiological system is evidently one of irregular and indefinite radiation, and of reiterate divergence and ramification from a varying number of successively subordinate typical plans; often modified in the extremes, till the general aspect has become entirely changed, but still retaining, to the very ultimate limits, certain fixed and constant distinctive characters, by which the true affinities of species may be always known; the modifications of each successive type being always in direct relation to particular localities, or to peculiar modes of procuring sustenance; in short, to the particular circumstances under which a species was appointed to exist in the locality which it indigenously inhabits, where alone its presence forms part of the grand system of the universe, and tends to preserve the balance of organic being, and, removed whence (as is somewhere well remarked by Mudie), a plant or animal is little else than a “disjointed fragment.”

This is astonishing! Blyth offers the concept of environments creating adaptive radiations!

Then Blyth in 1837:

A variety of important considerations here crowd upon the mind; foremost of which is the inquiry, that, as man, by removing species from their appropriate haunts, superinduces changes on their physical constitution and adaptations, to what extent may not the same take place in wild nature, so that, in a few generations, distinctive characters may be acquired, such as are recognised as indicative of specific diversity? It is a positive fact, for example, that the nestling plumage of larks, hatched in a red gravelly locality, is of a paler and more rufous tint than in those bred upon a dark soil.17 May not, then, a large proportion of what are considered species have descended from a common parentage?

Is this a stretch? Note what Ernst Mayr had to say:

The Missing Link

Eiseley (1959) vigorously promoted the thesis that Edward Blyth had established the theory of evolution by natural selection in 1835 and that Darwin surely had read his paper and quite likely had derived a major inspiration from it without ever mentioning this in his writings … Darwin quite likely had read Blyth’s paper but paid no further attention to it since it was antievolutionary in spirit and not different from the writings of other natural theologians in its general thesis

In fact what is a bit incriminating is Darwin owned copies of Blyth’s work, and that these copies have Darwin’s notes in the margin. Reading Blyth, it really is hard to see that Darwin made any innovation except the illogical conclusion that natural selection can create large scale biological complexity and design. As Allen Orr said, “selection does not trade in the currency of design”.

Something interesting is also apparent: there were a lot of naturalists who doubted the permanence of species, and Blyth was among them. Nevertheless, Darwin wrote in 1876, contrary to the truth:

I never happened to come across a single [naturalist] who seemed to doubt about the permanence of species …

Darwin effectively claims that he was singularly exceptional in his belief that species could be transformed by the environment. This claim is clearly untrue! The suspicion then arises whether Darwin was lying. In fact, Professor George Simpson acknowledges the appearance of lying with a bit of disbelief (the missing link):

These are extraordinary statements. They cannot literally be true, yet Darwin cannot be consciously lying, and he may therefore be judged unconsciously misleading, naive, forgetful, or all three.

Thus, Darwin’s behavior was so obviously suspicious to some that his admirers had to make excuses to explain away the appearance of lying.

The discussion of this topic will obviously be more than I have space for here, and I welcome input in the comments section if there are any relevant data points. But I close with some thoughts regarding Darwin’s genius (or lack thereof) or Darwin’s integrity (or lack thereof):

Professor C.D. Darlington writes The Mystery Begins

[Darwin] was able to put across his ideas not so much because of his scientific integrity, but because of his opportunism, his equivocation and his lack of historical sense. Though his admirers will not like to believe it, he accomplished his revolution by personal weakness and strategic talent more than by scientific virtue.

Thomas Henry Huxley Darwiniana Obituary:

Shrewsbury School could find nothing but dull mediocrity in Charles Darwin. The mind that found satisfaction in knowledge, but very little in mere learning; that could appreciate literature, but had no particular aptitude for grammatical exercises; appeared to the “strictly classical” pedagogue to be no mind at all. As a matter of fact, Darwin’s school education left him ignorant of almost all the things which it would have been well for him to know, and untrained in all the things it would have been useful for him to be able to do, in after life.

Thus, starved and stunted on the intellectual side, it is not surprising that Charles Darwin’s energies were directed towards athletic amusements and sport, to such an extent, that even his kind and sagacious father could be exasperated into telling him that “he cared for nothing but shooting, dogs, and rat-catching.”

Sir Gavin de Beer:

The boy [Darwin] developed very slowly: he was given, when small, to inventing gratuitous fibs and to daydreaming

and

Lies-and the thrills derived from lies-were for him indistinguishable from the delights of natural history or the joy of finding a long-sought specimen.

John and Mary Gribben:

… he devised a plan so cunning that even Machiavelli would have been proud of it. During 1845, Darwin worked on a second edition of his successful journal of the Beagle voyage, and added new material to the descriptions of the living things he had seen in South America. These new passages look innocuous enough in themselves. But as Howard Gruber pointed out in his book Darwin on Man (Wildwood House, London, 1974), if you compare the first and second editions … you can locate all the new material … string it together to make a coherent ‘ghost essay’ which conveys almost all of Darwin’s thinking about evolution [in 1845]. It is quite clear that this material must have been written as that coherent essay, then carefully chopped up and inserted into the journal.

The whole case of Darwin’s plagiarism was laid out rather tediously in Charles Darwin — The Truth? Interestingly the essay mentions Brian Goodwin and our very own John Davison here.

I hope this essay inspire some to revisit these important issues. If the hypothesis inspired by Eiseley is true, and if natural selection is an inadequate explanation for biological design, and if it turns out that Darwin was little more than a plagiarizing opportunist making illogical extrapolations of Blyth, then Blyth will be the one history smiles on, and Darwin will be the one history despises.

References to Blyth:

An Attempt to Classify the ‘Varieties’ of Animals with Observations on the Marked Seasonal and Other Changes Which Naturally Take Place in Various British Species, and Which Do Not Constitute Varieties by Blyth in 1835.

Varieties of Animals Part 2 by Blyth in 1835

Observations on the Various Seasonal and Other External Changes Which Regularly Take Place in Birds by Blyth in 1836

Seasonal and Other Changes in Birds – Part 2 by Blyth in 1836

Seasonal and Other Changes in Birds – Part 3 by Blyth in 1836

Seasonal and Other Changes in Birds – Part 4 by Blyth in 1836

On the Psychological Distinctions Between Man and All Other Animals by Blyth in 1837

Psychological Distinctions Between Man and Other Animals – Part 2 by Blyth in 1837

Psychological Distinctions Between Man and Other Animals – Part 3 by Blyth in 1837

Psychological Distinctions Between Man and Other Animals – Part 4 by Blyth in 1837

UPDATE 8/31/2006 I will link to opposing opinions on the net if I feel the scholarship is worthy. Here is Dr. N. Wells at ARN : Salvador on Blyth and Darwin

Comments
Before you start swining around accusations of dishonesty, it would be honest to say that the simplest vertebrate eye (inverted retina) may have considerably more capacities than the most advanced cephalopod eye (non-inverted retina).
So why, then, was Denton unable to make an honest case, instead citing features shared by both retinal designs as if they are advantages of the inverted retina? For example, he argues
The pigment epithelium sheet consists of epithelial cells that produce organelles containing melanin granules. Since RPE cells are located between the choroid and the retina, they often are classified as part of the choroid instead of the retina. The melanin they contain functions to absorb stray light, preventing the reflection and scattering of light within the eyeball, and ensuring that the image cast on the retina by the cornea and lens remains sharp and clear. Another function of the pigment is to form an opaque screen behind the optical path of the photoreceptors. This light absorptive property of the pigment is critical to maintaining high visual acuity. Hewitt and Adler concluded that the diverse function of the retinal pigment epithelium cells “is essential for the normal functioning of the outer retina.”
What he fails to mention is that the octopus retina has a pigment layer, with pigment granules located within the inner segments of the photoreceptor cells (i.e. behind the light-sensing part of the cell), as well as in support cells (which also provide the other functions of the vertebrate pigment epithelium). Here again, he manage by careful omission to give the false impression that a feature shared by both the octopus and the vertebrate retina is a unique advantage of the inverted retina.trrll
August 30, 2006
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trrll Your arm isn't a sling. This is a sling. It has an effective range greater than 200 meters and can lob stones up to 500 grams at velocities exceeding 30 meters per second. That is enough force to bring down big game. But hey, at this point I'd pay cash money to see you try to prove the effectiveness of your arm as a sling by throwing stones at charging grizzly. :lol:DaveScot
August 30, 2006
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That is incorrect. The laws of physics are informationally insufficient to encode the architecture of an eye. The architecture of the eye must account for the laws of physics, but there are aspects of the eye that transcend physical law (namely required boudnary conditions), therefore physics and chemistry cannot give information on how an eye is to be buuilt, it can only describe the general problems that must be overcome, not the solutions to those problems. Gregory Chaitin refutes that physical laws are sufficiently rich compared to biology.
You don't understand Chaitin at all, do you? To begin with, nobody actually knows how many bits of information are required to specify the laws of physics, because we don't have a complete physical theory. But even if we did, and the number of bits was relatively low, that does not mean that the laws of physics could not encode all of biology. From Chaitin's perspective, the information content of biology is determined by its maximally compressed form. So there is no reason why the laws of physics cannot encode biology in a compressed form. Indeed, there is a simple, if inefficient algorithm for deriving the structure of the eye—and indeed all biological structures—from the laws of physics. Simply test every possible DNA sequence up to a plausible maximum length, from shortest to longer, and see if it encodes for a functioning eye. While this is too inefficient to do in practice, the very fact that the algorithm exists demonstrates that all possible biological structures are encoded in the laws of physics.trrll
August 30, 2006
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The laws of physics, according to your logic, must also encode slings and arrows which are far less complicated than camera eyes. I wonder why no animals are born with a built-in sling for a weapon? Actually I don’t wonder. That’s a rhetorical question. Do you feel any shame at all making up this stupid crap as you go along?
I've got a built-in sling. It's called an arm, capable of slinging projectiles at speeds approaching 90 mph. It's worth noting that humans sling projectiles than any other primate, and Calvin has plausibly suggested that improved throwing ability might have been one of the early selective advances driving growth of the protohuman brain.trrll
August 30, 2006
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trrll The laws of physics, according to your logic, must also encode slings and arrows which are far less complicated than camera eyes. I wonder why no animals are born with a built-in sling for a weapon? Actually I don't wonder. That's a rhetorical question. Do you feel any shame at all making up this stupid crap as you go along?DaveScot
August 30, 2006
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trrll argues: But this is the major constraint cited by Denton, and if this is his area of expertise, then presumably he is making the strongest argument that he could come up with. Moreover, if retinas are indeed Denton’s area of expertise, then I can only conclude that he knew that the argument was invalid when he made it, and that he is being intentionally deceptive. This is, of course, what soured me on Creationism and ID. As a scientist, I can forgive somebody for being wrong. Indeed, there is a long scientific tradition of fruitful research being impelled by incorrect theories. What I cannot excuse is intellectual dishonesty.
Before you start swining around accusations of dishonesty, it would be honest to say that the simplest vertebrate eye (inverted retina) may have considerably more capacities than the most advanced cephalopod eye (non-inverted retina). The issue was not vascularization alone, but vascularization under the constraint of a considerably more complex sensory scheme. In that light, Denton hardly seems dishonest. For the readers benefit, see: Inverted Human Eye a Poor Design? Salvadorscordova
August 30, 2006
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trrll wrote: The information of how to build an eye is encoded in the fundamental laws of optics and chemistry, which dictate, for example, that a simple pinhole can function as a primitive lens, and that light sensitivity is a common feature of many organic molecules.
That is incorrect. The laws of physics are informationally insufficient to encode the architecture of an eye. The architecture of the eye must account for the laws of physics, but there are aspects of the eye that transcend physical law (namely required boudnary conditions), therefore physics and chemistry cannot give information on how an eye is to be buuilt, it can only describe the general problems that must be overcome, not the solutions to those problems. Gregory Chaitin refutes that physical laws are sufficiently rich compared to biology.
Given the overwhelming selective advantage to even rudimentary light sensing,
Why do think a selective advantage will be available to be selected against in the first place? That is just an assertion. It hardly qualifies as theoretical or empirical fact.scordova
August 30, 2006
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How on earth could chance evolution of land and water animals, a vertebrate and invertebrate, lead to such similarly constructed optical devices? I’ll tell you how. Because the information for how to build a camera eye was there before the first camera eye appeared. That’s how front-loading works.
I agree. The information of how to build an eye is encoded in the fundamental laws of optics and chemistry, which dictate, for example, that a simple pinhole can function as a primitive lens, and that light sensitivity is a common feature of many organic molecules. Given the overwhelming selective advantage to even rudimentary light sensing, the early evolution of light-sensing cells, and the subsequent evolution of eyes of a variety of structures was clearly inevitable.trrll
August 30, 2006
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LoL! What was the alleged common ancestor of flies and mice? Did it even have HOX genes? Did it even have eyes?
The hypothesized common ancestor of flies and mice is a long-extinct organism dubbed Urbilateria. It is presumed to have hox genes, which are even found in roundworms. Nobody knows if it had eyes.trrll
August 30, 2006
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Michael Denton’s area of scientific specialty is retinas. Are you so sure the octupus verted retinal eye’s architecture would work well in a vertebrate? Woud you trade your eyes in for an octopus? There are other constraints in addition to vascularization.
But this is the major constraint cited by Denton, and if this is his area of expertise, then presumably he is making the strongest argument that he could come up with. Moreover, if retinas are indeed Denton's area of expertise, then I can only conclude that he knew that the argument was invalid when he made it, and that he is being intentionally deceptive. This is, of course, what soured me on Creationism and ID. As a scientist, I can forgive somebody for being wrong. Indeed, there is a long scientific tradition of fruitful research being impelled by incorrect theories. What I cannot excuse is intellectual dishonesty.
Here is an article by an Opthalmologist. I presume he would understand eyes pretty well:
An ophthalmologist is a physician, not a basic scientist. Physicians typically know a lot about the treatment of disease and very little about the fundamental biology (I should know; I teach medical students). So when he makes the very same false arguments, which would be refuted by even a few minutes spent studying the actual anatomy of the octopus eye (which you'll note is not included in any of the article's several illustrations), it is quite possible that he is genuinely ignorant. Still, anybody with a shred of intellectual integrity would be expected to check before making such assertions.trrll
August 30, 2006
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It all sounds very plausible—unless of course you go to the effort to actually look at the structure of an octopus retina, and see that the octopus retina is just as well, if not better, vascularized than the vertebrate retina, and that support cells are present to replace the function of the ciliary epithelium (another issue that Denton makes much of) all without blocking the photoreceptors or impairing their packing. So what am I to make of Denton’s argument? Could he possibly have made such an argument without even bothering to look at an octopus retina? It’s not like it’s hard to find the information. It’s hard to imagine that anybody with an ounce of scientific integrity would do this. Or was he consciously making a deceptive argument with the expectation that most of his audience would not trouble to look up the details?
Michael Denton's area of scientific specialty is retinas. Are you so sure the octupus verted retinal eye's architecture would work well in a vertebrate? Woud you trade your eyes in for an octopus? There are other constraints in addition to vascularization. Seeing is not the only constraint under which an eye might be architected, any more then gas mileage is the only criteria to judge the technology in a motor vehicle. Here is an article by an Opthalmologist. I presume he would understand eyes pretty well: Is Our ‘Inverted’ Retina Really ‘Bad Design’?
Some evolutionists claim that the verted retinae of cephalopods, such as squids and octopuses, are more efficient than the inverted retinae found in vertebrates.[46] But this presupposes that the inverted retina is inefficient in the first place. As shown above, evolutionists have failed to demonstrate that the inverted retina is a bad design, and that it functions poorly; they ignore the many good reasons for it. Also, they have never shown that cephalopods actually see better. On the contrary, their eyes merely ‘approach some of the lower vertebrate eyes in efficiency’[47] and they are probably colour blind.[48] Moreover, the cephalopod retina, besides being ‘verted’, is actually much simpler than the ‘inverted’ retina of vertebrates; as Budelmann states, ‘The structure of the [cephalopod] retina is much simpler than in the vertebrate eye, with only two neural components, the receptor cells and efferent fibres’.[49] .... Finally, in their natural environment cephalopods are exposed to a much lower light intensity than are most vertebrates and they generally live only two or three years at the most. Nothing is known about the lifespan of the giant squid; in any case it is believed to frequent great depths at which there is little light.[52] Thus for cephalopods there is less need for protection against photic damage. Being differently designed for a different environment, the cephalopod eye can function well with a ‘verted’ retina.[53]
It's very easy to find reasons to say a design is not optimal. For example, one could say a truck is sub-optimal compared to a car because it's fuel mileage is so low, thus Trucks evidence poor design..... I wouldn't be so quick then to be accusing Design theorists of lacking integrity....scordova
August 30, 2006
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To Zachriel, Not even the Grants understand what brought forth the variation in the first place. And not even they know the mechanism for the change. For all they know it could be "built-in responses to environmental cues" as Dr. Spetner describes. trrll: Yes, a design theory can predict anything you want. That is false. It would be more true if you stated that evolutionism can "predict" anything you want. trrll: But of course, it is easy to predict something after the fact. That is evolutionism in a nutshell. Did the common ancestor of the mouse and fly have such a gene or did those genes arise separately? trrll: Evolutionary theory prohibits separate origins for genes with such a high degree of similarity; the must have been present from a common ancestor. LoL! What was the alleged common ancestor of flies and mice? Did it even have HOX genes? Did it even have eyes? And knowing whet we do know about proofreading and error correction (within cells) saying evolutionism "predicts" anything about mutations is laughable nonsense.Joseph
August 30, 2006
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DaveScot: "did it occur to you to think about the similarities" The basic principles of focusing light are based on simple geometry. A close look at the different structures shows that they developed independently. Note that mammalian eyes have a homologous structure whether the organisms are aquatic, avian or terrestrial.Zachriel
August 30, 2006
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trrll While you were looking at that octopus eye and trying to figure out why optic nerve placement was different from mammal eye did it occur to you to think about the similarities? How long ago did mammals and mollusks diverge - I'm guessing during the Cambrian 500 mya if not earlier. How on earth could chance evolution of land and water animals, a vertebrate and invertebrate, lead to such similarly constructed optical devices? I'll tell you how. Because the information for how to build a camera eye was there before the first camera eye appeared. That's how front-loading works. Thanks for bringing this marvelous bit of evidence for it up for discussion. Convergent evolution is something that RM+NS does not predict while front-loaded evolution does.DaveScot
August 30, 2006
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There was a point some years ago when I spent a lot of time looking into Creationist claims. I had the idea (in retrospect, naive) that Creationists, not being constrained by an evolutionary perspective, might have discovered some problems with the standard evolutionary paradigm that could lead to some important insights. It turned out to be a colossal waste of time. Everything that I tracked down to original sources turned out to be wrong—either a misunderstanding, or even more commonly, a gross misstatement. Much of their literature appeared to me to be intentionally deceptive. While I haven't read Theory in Crisis, what I've seen of Denton's work fits into that pattern. For example, in this article, he argues that the inverted design of the mammalian retina, as compared to the octopus retina, is a necessary adaptation to provide adequate blood supply to the warm-blooded vertebrate retina.
This implies strongly that high-acuity vision in the eyes of cold-blooded vertebrates would be possible with a non-inverted retina and that it is only in the case of the higher and warm-blooded vertebrate species where the metabolic rates are far higher that the inverted arrangement to bring the photoreceptors adjacent to the choroidal vessels is a necessity for phototransduction.
It all sounds very plausible—unless of course you go to the effort to actually look at the structure of an octopus retina, and see that the octopus retina is just as well, if not better, vascularized than the vertebrate retina, and that support cells are present to replace the function of the ciliary epithelium (another issue that Denton makes much of) all without blocking the photoreceptors or impairing their packing. So what am I to make of Denton's argument? Could he possibly have made such an argument without even bothering to look at an octopus retina? It's not like it's hard to find the information. It's hard to imagine that anybody with an ounce of scientific integrity would do this. Or was he consciously making a deceptive argument with the expectation that most of his audience would not trouble to look up the details?trrll
August 30, 2006
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trrll asked: Can you summarize his arguments?
Not in the space of this thread. I leave it to the interested reader to consider Denton's usage of hierarchy against Darwinian evolution. On the surface hierarchies might incline one to believe in Darwinian evolution, Denton shows the true implicaiton of hierarchies in geological time is counter-intuitive and anti-Darwinian. Salvadorscordova
August 29, 2006
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Do you have Michael Denton’s book, Evolution a Theory in Crisis. He makes a powerful case for hierarchical patterns in morphology actually resisting the Darwinian interpretation. His molecular interpretation of hierarchical is half descent, and can be improved in a couple spots. But still make the case that hierarchies are anathema to Darwinism, contrary to popular thought. I would not be surprised to see the same for regulatory genes someday…..
No, I haven't seen Denton's book, but I don't see how anybody could make a "powerful case" for an claim that is so obviously nonsensical on the face of it. Can you summarize his arguments?trrll
August 29, 2006
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trrll, Do you have Michael Denton's book, Evolution a Theory in Crisis. He makes a powerful case for hierarchical patterns in morphology actually resisting the Darwinian interpretation. His molecular interpretation of hierarchical is half descent, and can be improved in a couple spots. But still make the case that hierarchies are anathema to Darwinism, contrary to popular thought. I would not be surprised to see the same for regulatory genes someday..... Hierarchies and order in circumstances that would lead to disorder are suggestive of design. Salvadorscordova
August 29, 2006
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Hierarchical patterning of various features in biology was accepted even by creationitst as evidence of a common designer. If there are hierarcical patterns which are not explainable to common ancestry, then that part of the naturalistic thesis will be shattered.
But in fact, it is not evidence of a common designer, unless you can define some characteristic of the designer that forces it to use such hierarchical gene control patterns, even down to the same regulatory genes and factors, on organisms as radically different as flies and mammals. This may be why the only people who actually went looking for conserved hierarchical patters of control of gene expression were those were inspired by evolutionary theory to do so. Hierarchical control patterns could conceivably arise by convergent evolution, but in this case one would not expect to find homologies down to the level of gene sequence. This is something that (in evolutionary theory) can only occur by common inheritance.trrll
August 29, 2006
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trrll wrote: Since modern species are all “successful evolvers,” they must have such hierarchical control systems. This realization fueled the search for such regulatory systems, many of which have now been identified.
Hierarchical patterning of various features in biology was accepted even by creationitst as evidence of a common designer. If there are hierarcical patterns which are not explainable to common ancestry, then that part of the naturalistic thesis will be shattered. The hierarchical pattern in itself does not distinguish whether the origin of the pattern was due to: 1. common descent 2. common design 3. some combination of #1 and #2 Salvadorscordova
August 29, 2006
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That is nonsense. Evolutionism doesn’t even predict regulatory genes.
Darwin, of course, did not know anything about genes, but evolutionary theory has advanced a long way since Darwin. An early realization was that for evolution by natural selection to work, there must be hierarchical systems of genetic regulation. For example, if dozens of genes needed to be modified for an eye to be moved, then the position of the eye would be "locked in," because the chance of those mutations occurring simultaneously would be very small. So there must be a mechanism that says, essentially "put an eye here," without having to redefine all of the information about how to make an eye—an approach similar to that later devised by human programmers who developed "object oriented" programming languages. Since modern species are all "successful evolvers," they must have such hierarchical control systems. This realization fueled the search for such regulatory systems, many of which have now been identified.
Now a common design would predict such a thing…
Yes, a design theory can predict anything you want. We can certainly envisage a designer who likes hierarchical designs and reuses code, but we can also envision one who crafts each organism individually and completely different, like an artist. ID people are quick to jump on the successful predictions of evolutionary theory, and say, "We could have predicted that." But of course, it is easy to predict something after the fact. It is no coincidence that it is scientists working from the predictions of evolutionary theory who are willing to invest their reputations and a significant portion of their careers into pursuing predictions of evolutionary theory. ID advocates love to talk about the predictive power of ID, but they never seem willing to put their money where their mouth is, take those predictions into the laboratory, and actually bet their careers on those predictions.
Did the common ancestor of the mouse and fly have such a gene or did those genes arise separately?
Evolutionary theory prohibits separate origins for genes with such a high degree of similarity; the must have been present from a common ancestor.trrll
August 29, 2006
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What genes define how an eye is made? What genes define the type of eye?
The genes for the proteins expressed by the cells that make up the eye. The receptor genes involved in cell-to-cell communication that coordinate the embryonic development process that leads to the formation of the eye. The regulatory regions for all of those genes. Certainly hundreds, if not thousands, of distinct DNA sequences
Incredible. First he tells us how to make a fly develop a mouse eye and in the same breath tells us it’s something we do not even begin to know how to do.
We know just enough to have an idea of the scope of the task, and to know that it is well beyond current biological knowledge to achieve. Fortunately, evolution leads us to suspect that even though there are an enormous number of differences between the two eyes, there is likely to be a "master switch" that would be conserved by natural selection, and is fundamentally the same in flies and mice. That prediction leads to a search for the hypothesized master switch, and it is found. This is yet another example of how evolutionary theory continues to drive scientific discovery.
This is really chance evolution in a nutshell. Nobody knows how to even begin demonstrating how chance could produce the complexity of life but that doesn’t stop them from filling bookshelves with texts describing a process that is unpredictable, undemonstrable, unwitnessed, and unrepeatable.
Yes, this is science in a nutshell, and a good example of how science differs from religion. Genuine science does not purport to explain every detail from the outset. Rather it provides a set of tools—testable theories and experimental/observational methodologies—by which we can work out the answers step by step. For example, we have a theory of quantum mechanics that purports to explain all of the complexities of biochemistry. Yet we cannot at this time work out exactly how a medium sized protein will fold in response to the chance interactions with solvent molecules, nor do we have any method of witnessing it directly. Indeed, scientists are currently filling bookshelves with research studying protein folding. And there is no guarantee that we will ever have the answers, much less that we will ever know for sure that we will have them correct. Scientists are comfortable with this state of incomplete knowledge. Those who require instant, pat answers are better advised to study religion.
If the genes that regulate turning on the eye making genes are predicted by evolution (show me where this prediction was made please) to be highly conserved does that mean that if we find they are not always highly conserved then evolution is falsified?
No, this was not a strong prediction (an example of a strong prediction would be that two newly identified vertebrate species will have the same genetic code). It is rather along the lines of an educated guess based on the theory. If the regulatory mechanisms were completely different, that would be a problem for evolution, but that they are so similar that you could swap one gene for the other is more along the lines of an educated guess—something that the theory says is likely, but that it does not absolutely require.
Of course not. That’s how real science works - when predictions fail the hypothesis is falsified.
A good theory will provide some strong predictions, that must be true if the theory is correct, but it will also provide weaker predictions—things that are likely to be true if the theory is correct. If a strong prediction fails, then the theory must be discarded or modified in a fundamental way. Failure of a weaker prediction does not invalidate the theory, but it may cast a certain amount of doubt upon it. If research based upon such weaker predictions consistently fails to bear fruit, then scientists eventually start looking for a more fruitful theory. In terms of its ability to generate both strong predictions and weaker ones that drive successful research, evolution remains one of the most successful theories in the history of science.trrll
August 29, 2006
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In the OP scordova wrote: "My hypothesis is that Edward Blyth should have been given far more credit for the theory of natural selection. Because Blyth was a creationist, he did not see natural selection as an adequate mechanism for biological innovation. He believed natural selection as primarily a means of preserving species, not primarily creating large scale biological innovations. Even though a creationist, he seemed open to some forms of evolution (as creationists are today), and it would be hard to argue that he believed in the absolute fixity of species. Blyth’s position on natural selection would be consistent with many IDers and creationists today." Well, let's do it then, give Edward Blyth more credit. But shouldn't we then in all fairness also give him more blame? scordova quoting Blyth (1836): ".... The original form of a species is unquestionably better adapted to its natural habits than any modification of that form; and, as the sexual passions excite to rivalry and conflict, and the stronger must always prevail over the weaker, the latter, in a state of nature, is allowed but few opportunities of continuing its race." Oh, my, oh my, what have we here? The very proof that we should give credit, where it is due. Clearly, "social Darwinism" is a misnomer, ir should be called "social Blythism". This most important information should change a few things. As you all know, Coral Ridge Ministries have released a video and book called "Darwin's deadly legacy", which traces social Darwinism from Farwin to Hitler. But clearly the title should be changed to "Blyth's deadly legacy", shouldn't it? And imagine that we all thought that Edward Blyth was such a gentle and good-tempered human! No, we must the root of evil right, where it is: amongst the evil creationists that have supplied the evolutionists with the idea of "struggle for survival". Yes, indeed, credit should be given where it's due. By the way, Blyth wrote in 1835 that "[s]ome arctic species are white, which have no enemy to fear, as the polar bear, the gyrfalcon, the arctic eagle-owl, the snowy owl, and even the stoat; and therefore, in these, the whiteness can only be to preserve the temperature of their bodies ..." If Blyth had done a bit further of thinking, he might have figured out that the whiteness of these predators could have served to make them less easy to spot for their prey.Poul Willy Eriksen
August 29, 2006
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trrll If the genes that regulate turning on the eye making genes are predicted by evolution (show me where this prediction was made please) to be highly conserved does that mean that if we find they are not always highly conserved then evolution is falsified? Of course not. That's how real science works - when predictions fail the hypothesis is falsified. How science that has become ideological dogma works is that if a prediction doesn't pan out you craft an ad hoc explanation for why it didn't and leave the underlying dogma intact. Chance and necessity haven't been questioned since the discovery of DNA. It's an assumption and because it's so vague and powerful and in the distant past an explanation can and will be crafted to fit any and all observations. It explains everything and thus explains nothing.DaveScot
August 29, 2006
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trrll writes: To make a fly develop a mouse eye, you would need to replace dozens of mouse genes that define how an eye is made, and they would have to be heavily modified to work in the background of the fly’s body, something we do not even begin to know how to do. Incredible. First he tells us how to make a fly develop a mouse eye and in the same breath tells us it's something we do not even begin to know how to do. This is really chance evolution in a nutshell. Nobody knows how to even begin demonstrating how chance could produce the complexity of life but that doesn't stop them from filling bookshelves with texts describing a process that is unpredictable, undemonstrable, unwitnessed, and unrepeatable. Unfrigginbelievable.DaveScot
August 29, 2006
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trrll: If having watched “Inherit the Wind” is the best evidence of bias the ID crowd has been able to come up with, they are really clutching at straws. It isn't. Read the book "Traipsing Into Evolution" IF you want more. Trrll: And I’ve read the decision. Me too and it is clear the judge stepped beyond his authority. trrll: It was clear to me that the judge fully understood the expert testimony. It is clear to me that he blindly accepted what the plaintiffs "experts" said while dismissing what the defendants experts said. trrll: I note that many legal commentators have commented that because the decision is so well-reasoned, it is likely to serve as a model for decisions on similar cases in the future. I note that many legal experts state the judge went too far and obviously is still clueless about ID. As a matter of fact I would say the past Dover school board knows more about ID than the judge and it was obvious that they didn't know much about ID at all. I have read geneticists and molecular biologists who think that way. But perhaps trrll can tell us what makes an organism what it is. Then we can test the premise of whether or not one population can “evolve” into another. We know it isn’t the genes or DNA- we can place a mouse gene in an eyeless fly but the next generation of flies develops fly-eyes, not mouse eyes- so where is the info that tells what type of eye shoudl develop? trrll: Your question reflects a quite profound misunderstanding of how gene regulation works. Yeah sure- perhaps you can enlighten me. trrll: To make a fly develop a mouse eye, you would need to replace dozens of mouse genes that define how an eye is made, and they would have to be heavily modified to work in the background of the fly’s body, something we do not even begin to know how to do. What genes define how an eye is made? What genes define the type of eye? trrll: But one thing that evolution predicts is that the most fundamental regulatory genes—not the ones that define the details of how to make they eye itself, but the ones that simply turn on those eye-making genes—are likely to be highly conserved, because functions at such a deep level are hard for evolution to modify. That is nonsense. Evolutionism doesn't even predict regulatory genes. Now a common design would predict such a thing... trrll: This led to the prediction that the homologous mouse gene might function similarly in a fly—a prediction that has turned out to be correct. Again that is nonsense. Did the common ancestor of the mouse and fly have such a gene or did those genes arise separately? It appears that trrll is the one grasping at straws and telling us about predictions that never existed. Come trrll what makes an organism what it is? We know that although genes may influence every aspect of development they do NOT determine it. And if they do NOT determine it then modifying genes will not get the reults evolutionism requires.Joseph
August 29, 2006
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Joseph: "However we have been told that there is NO WAY to predict what would be selected for at any point in time. And we know we can’t predict what mutations will occur." This is a misunderstanding of the nature of observation and the nature of scientific prediction. If we predict that you will roll boxcars 1 time in 36, that is a valid prediction. If we predict that genes will randomly mutate at a given rate, that is an empirical prediction. If John Horner predicts that dinosaur eggs will likely be found in Montana in strata associated by geologists with the shores of an ancient inland sea, and finds not just eggs, but babies and entire nesting colonies, that is predictive confirmation. Joseph: "Heck how can one validate the bacterial flagellum “evolved”?" I note you are making a challenge about an event that is so far in the past, microscopic and soft tissue, that most of the evidence is lost in the hundreds-of-millions of years of intervening time. It is surprising we can know anything whatsoever about such ancient events. The simplest prediction would be that the flagellum is composed of homologous elements that have other functions in the cell. And it is. The flagellum is composed of a rotating pore combined to a motor system, both common and plausible precursors. joseph: "And genetics & molecular biology are no friends of evolutionists." The journal Genetics lists "evolution" 10900 times, "natural selection" 3280 times, "intelligent design" 4 times. Apparently, scientists involved in the study of heredity still think evolution is something important to investigate. trrll: "And they frequently exhibit punctuated equilibrium." Typically, they exhibit scale invariant behavior. Think fractals or coast lines. Lots of small changes, a few larger changes, the occasional revolutionary change. Other natural phenemona have this sort of scale invariance. Waves on a beach, rocks falling from a cliff, meteors striking the Earth. (Of course, we don't want to confuse the mathematical model with the details of the actual historical evolution. But it interesting to note that Mandelbrot, who proposed the model of chaotic behavior, studied the cotton market. While marketers discussed various events that effected the cotton market that seemed to be unique circumstances associated with particular historical events; including market crashes, wars, and weather patterns; when Mandelbrot examined the data, he discovered the ups-and-downs in the market price were scale-invariant and he could ignore just about everything the marketers said.) On the point about gradualism: Evolution does proceed gradually over geological time-scales and Darwin made a very good first-order approximation. As more evidence and more sophisticated models of the process have become available, naive gradualism has been abandoned. As I previously mentioned, Darwin knew that evolution may not have a constant rate but would respond to the environmental conditions. A good example of evolution would be the increase in brain size in hominids. It proceeded rapidly for a couple of million years then leveled off. This change was accompanied by other morphological changes, shortening of the arm-leg ratio, changes in the hand and foot, etc. Charlie: "Darwin may not have had the benefit of computer simulations, but he had the same benefit of the fossil record and observational science as had his opponents, and yet he ignored these." Two chapters of Origin of Species are dedicated to the fossil record; On the Imperfection of the Geological Record, and On The Geological Succession of Organic Beings. Darwin predicts the existence of intermediaries. And species discovered after Darwin and found in the appropriate strata such as Homo habilis and Homo erectus are clearly intermediate. Joseph: "We know it isn’t the genes or DNA- we can place a mouse gene in an eyeless fly but the next generation of flies develops fly-eyes, not mouse eyes-..." Yeah, pretty amazing confirmation of common descent.Zachriel
August 29, 2006
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bfast: "Let’s see, are you saying that the morphological change in extent life is greater than the observable rateo of moprphological change in the fossil record during the 10 million years at the beginning of the cambrian?" There is a great deal of difficulty measuring the rates of morphological change during the early Cambrian. Most of the evidence of that epoch is shrouded by the intervening events during the last half-a-billion years. Nor is 10 million years an insignificant duration. I assume because you resorted to such an early period that you accept the standard model for the evolution of vertebrates and other latter-day lineages. But it turns out that the early Cambrian is not a complete mystery. Genetic evidence indicates that many phyla, including the bilatera, date from the Precambrian and their period of evolution was much longer than fossil evidence had indicated. Since then, distinct microscopic evidence of Precambrian bilatera have been found, e.g. Dickinsonia. jerry: "Essentially what they have found was no gradual change but sudden appearance and stasis until extinction." The importance of punctuated equilibrium to explaining certain aspects of the fossil record is still in some dispute. It certainly doesn't indicate that evolution doesn't occur, but only that evolution occurs in small, isolated populations that then supplant their parents. In any case, evolution can be directly observed including broad morphological changes, so there is no question that evolution occurs and that species do not necessarily remain in stasis until extinction. The modern model is probably something close to scale invariance; lots of small changes, a few fundamental changes, and the occasional revolutiony change. However, even Darwin knew that the rate of evolution would not be constant and that natural selection may not be the only mechanism of change. Darwin: "Species of different genera and classes have not changed at the same rate, or in the same degree." "I am convinced that Natural Selection has been the main but not exclusive means of modification." Joseph: "Nothing that Darwin observed is now considered evidence for macro evolution. The most marvelous example of this is Darwin’s finches." The Grants' work with Darwin's Finches shows the very best in dedicated observation over long periods of time. They demonstrated the effects of ecological selection, sexual selection, genetic drift, and contingency in isolated populations. Quite an achievement. For anyone interested in how observational science actually works, I heartily recommend the Pulitzer Prize winning story of the Grants, The Beak of the Finch: A Story of Evolution in Our Time. I'm sure you would disagree with Peter and Rosemary Grant's scientific assessment of their life's work. But hey! What do they know about finches?Zachriel
August 29, 2006
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Computer programs frequently exhibit what the programmer wants them to.
However, programs utilizing genetic algorithms frequently exhibit surprising behavior that the programmer did not intend or anticipate. That natural emergence of "punctuated equilibrium" patterns of change in many different types of simulations—something that was not intentionally programmed in—is a good example of this.trrll
August 28, 2006
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a judge who said he watched “Inherit the Wind” for historical content- a judge who was obviously over his head when it came to the expert testimony?
If having watched "Inherit the Wind" is the best evidence of bias the ID crowd has been able to come up with, they are really clutching at straws. And I've read the decision. It was clear to me that the judge fully understood the expert testimony. Indeed, the high quality of the decision has largely erased many of my reservations regarding the ability of the courts to adjudicate technical scientific issues. I thought that it was a model of cogent, logical reasoning, evincing a remarkably strong grasp of both the science and governing legal precedent. I note that many legal commentators have commented that because the decision is so well-reasoned, it is likely to serve as a model for decisions on similar cases in the future.trrll
August 28, 2006
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