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We Have No Excuse- A Scientific Case for Relating Life to Mind

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By Robert Deyes And John Calvert

PART I: FOUNDATIONS IN PROBABILITY

“We call these [mutation] events accidental; we say that they are random occurrences. And since they constitute the only possible source of modifications in the genetic text, itself the sole repository of the organism’s hereditary structures, it necessarily follows that chance alone is at the source of every innovation, of all creation in the biosphere. (Jacques Monod)[Ref 1]

 

Many in science employ a dogma that life is related to matter, rather than to mind.  The dogma seems conceptually flawed.  Unlike rocks, rivers, wind, rain and snow, life operates on information – tightly integrated messages that function to order a grand symphony of future events for clearly evident purposes.  Lacking a mind, matter simply can’t comprehend or order future events for a purpose.   Because purpose only derives from mind, logic seems to demand that life is related to mind rather than just to matter.

 

Lacking a mind, material causes have only two tools to work with: (1) physical and chemical necessity flowing from the properties of matter, energy and the forces and (2) chance.  As implied by Monod’s statement, physical and chemical necessity are not tools used to order the symbol sequences that make life.  Hence, the heavy lifting is left to chance by default.

 

The chance default is considered adequate because it is endowed with seemingly gargantuan resources consisting of billions of years of time and countless opportunity.  The purpose manifested by life is only “apparent” and not objectively real because chance can explain it.  For the materialist, the purpose apparent in the messages of life is just an illusion, like the illusion of a rising sun in the morning.

 

This article explains why Monod is wrong and the claim of chance fails.  It fails because probability decreases exponentially at an accelerating rate as the complexity of a system increases only incrementally.  Because of the phenomenal rate of reduction even billions and billions of years of time and opportunity are not adequate for chance to mimic the simplest functions of life.

 

If chance is not adequate to explain life, given the absence of chemical necessity for its purposeful character, it seems we have no excuse for not relating life to mind, rather than to matter.

 

A Game Of Relationships (A vignette illustrating the implausibility of functional relationships arising by chance):

 Today is a great day because Maggie is visiting.  Maggie is your five year-old grand daughter.  She brings with her a new game her dad gave her called “Relationships.”  The game includes an easel that you set up in the family room.  It also has a white metal drawing board that sits on the easel.  The board is ten inches square and is divided by very faint white lines into 100 squares as follows:

 

picture11 

 

 

The metal board is magnetic.  Hanging below the cross bar of the easel is a box.  Inside the box are little metal discs.  Painted on each disc is an upper case or lower case letter of the 26 letter alphabet, a period, a comma or a question mark.  Thus, there are 55 different symbols in the box.  With these symbols one can make all manner of patterns.

 

A little machine is attached to the box.  Every six minutes the machine randomly pulls a disc out of the box and randomly puts it on one of the 100 squares on the drawing board. After it does this it replenishes the box with a like copy of the placed disc so the box always has a full set of the 55 letters and punctuation marks.

 

Because the board is magnetic, the iron discs stick without falling to the floor.  You and Maggie turn the machine on and watch it draw the letter “D” and put it in row 2 of column 4.  You then retire to the kitchen for some milk and cookies.  A few minutes later, you go back to the family room and see that there is now a second letter on the board.  A letter “T” is in row 5 of column 3:

 

picture24

 

Dependent Physical Relationships
The point of the game is to describe the relationships that appear on the board.  So, you and Maggie start looking for relationships.  You find that there is a dependent or necessary relationship between the discs and the magnetic board. In other words, if you put a disc close to the board an electromagnetic force contained in the atoms that make up the board strongly attract the atoms that make up the iron disc.  But if you release the disc before it gets too close to the board it will be pulled by the gravitational force to the ground.  So, you conclude that the discs are related to the board by chemical and physical necessity.  Stated another way, the relationship of the letter D to the board is dependent on the electromagnetic attraction of the board.  The combination of the metal properties of the discs and the magnetic property of the board produce this “necessary” or dependent relationship between the board and the discs.  If the discs were made of wood they would not stick.  Instead, you would find them scattered on the floor unrelated to the board.
                                                                                                                                                                        
Independent Physical Relationships
Maggie likes playing with the magnets, but is getting bored.  So, you ask her if there is a relationship between the letters themselves.  Is the letter “D” related to the letter “T”?   Both are related to the board.  But, are they related to each other?  You show Maggie how there is no physical or chemical necessity for D to be in row 2 of column 4 or for the T to be in row 5 column 3. Also, there is no necessity for the “D” to be a “D” or the “T” to be a “T”.  They could easily be “A’s”, “c’s” or “q’s”.  Thus there is no physical, chemical or “necessary” relationship between the “D” and “T”. It can also be said that “D’s” relationship in space does not depend on “T’s” relationship in space.  They are independent of each other.  You also know that the machine is a random generator.  It just pulls and puts symbols randomly.  So, if the discs are related at all, it is simply a random or “chance” relationship.  Their relationship to the board is necessary, but their relationship to each other is random.
 
Functionally dependent relationships
Maggie says she has had enough and wants to go out and play. So she goes outside and you go back to the kitchen to make a pie for dinner.  After putting the pie in the oven, you stroll back into the family room to watch the news.  Now you see a new pattern of letters on the board that spells “Think.”

With some surprise, you ask again – what is the relationship, if any between the discs?    Although there is no physically dependent relationship between the “T” and the “D,” there is a clear relationship between the “T” and each of the other four letters that comprise the word “Think.”  By themselves they are meaningless.  Together the discs function to produce an event to occur in the future.  The future event is the manifestation of the meaning symbolized by the command “Think.”  Once all five of the letters are assembled in that precise sequence there comes into existence a manifestation of meaning symbolized by the word “Think.”  That meaning is of course:

 “to employ one’s mind rationally and objectively in evaluating or dealing with a given situation.”

 

Consider the following arrangements on a board:

 

 think

 

If any of the five letters were missing or on the wrong square the manifestation would not occur.  Hence, all discs are related to each other by a non-physical intangible unique function.  Although the discs are physical objects themselves, the function their relationship manifests is not physical.  You also note that while the relationship between the discs and the board is necessary or dependent due to the charge on physical particles – atoms and electrons, the relationships between each of the letters in Think are physically independent, unified only by an intangible function.

 

            “Function” is synonymous with “meaning,” and “purpose,” 

 

You ask, what can produce a “functional,” “meaningful,” or “purposeful” relationship?

 

Just as a magnetic relationship can derive only from an electromagnetic force, a purposeful relationship can only derive from a mind or some form of intelligence that has the capacity to think of it.  Purpose, meaning or function can only be a derivative of thought.  It is produced in the mind through the capacity of the mind to “know” the present, store that “knowledge” in memory, to “think” about that knowledge so as to “predict” the future and to then “choose” to alter the future for an intended purpose.   The arrangement of matter, energy and the forces to achieve the purpose per the choice, becomes the manifestation of that immaterial thought or purpose born in the mind. 

 

Material causes and random processes, which lack a mind, simply do not have the capacity to produce an intention in the first instance.  Material causes cannot know or think.  Hence, they lack the capacity to manifest thoughts they cannot have.  They can’t know the present, have knowledge of the past or choose to alter the future.

 

Accordingly, if a function is manifested by a pattern consisting of physically independent elements, then it is reasonable to infer that a mind may have produced it.

 

Think of how a mind produces the future manifestation associated with the word “Think.”  The mind orders a sequence of steps integrated to manifest a function that does not come into being until all the steps have been taken.  For example, the first step in the production of the manifestation of a command to think is to generate the letter “T.”  That step alone is not sufficient to produce the manifestation.  A second step must also be taken – the placement of an “h” immediately to the right of the “T.”  But that does not produce the manifestation either.  Three more steps are required.  The future effect does not arise until the last letter is placed.  The only cause that we know of that has the capacity to generate and then manifest a real intention is a mind.

 

Minds order events for a future purpose.  They order patterns that will command, inform, assemble, build, enable, excite, please, transport, house, nourish, and destroy.  Each manifestation of a mind is preceded by a set of steps.  The steps often reveal the ultimate intention of the mind, but not always.  One does not know the true intention of the minds that built Stonehenge.  However, one may know that it was produced by a mind or minds for a purpose.  One may not know the purpose of a homicide, although one may reasonably infer that it was a homicide.   The inference to a mind arises from the clues left behind by the mind – the physical steps that had to be taken to produce the intended non-physical function or effect. 

 

The name we often ascribe to a pattern that manifests the intention of a mind is “information.”   Information is clearly carried in writings which serve to expressly reflect intentions.  It is not always apparent in all mind produced patterns, such as works of art, ciphers, incomplete works or works that use an unintelligible language.    

 

Who or what “done” it?  So, when you see “Think” on the board you scratch your head and think.  You are the only one who has been in the house since Maggie went out to play.  If that is true, then no mind has been present to fiddle with the random generator.   Perhaps the discs that spell “Think” are not a derivative of intention but are in fact just related by chance.  Maybe the manifestation of meaning reflected in the sequence is just an illusion of a mind at work.  If chance can explain the pattern, then you need not look for Maggie hiding in the closet.  

 

You think chance ought to be a plausible alternative.  After all, there are only five letters involved in the pattern.  Chance ought to be able to account for such a short sequence.  So you decide to calculate the odds to show how chance can explain the pattern and solve the mystery.

 

Calculating probability
Most of us let our intuition do probability calculations because it seems so difficult.  But, the basics involve simple division and multiplication.

 

The probability (P) of the occurrence of a series of events comprising a pattern manifesting a particular function (F) is the number of opportunities or trials (T) for the pattern to occur divided by the number of possible patterns or outcomes (O) that could occur or PF=T/O:

                                                          T number of trials for function                      
PFprobability of function =   ————————————-
                                                          O possible outcomes   

A simple example would be the probability of the occurrence of a single event pattern consisting of a dot that could be produced by flipping a coin that has a dot on one side and a dash on the other.  The probability of getting the pattern of single dot on one trial consisting of one flip is:

                                       T(1 flip)
PFprobability of function =   —————= 1/2 or  .5
                                       O (dot or dash) 
                                                                                                                                                               

Suppose we want to know the probability of getting a more complex pattern – one consisting of a series of three dots in one trial consisting of three flips.  Three dots symbolize the letter “S” in Morse Code language.  Although we are flipping the coin three times, we still only have one trial because the function we are looking for consists of three related steps – three flips in a specific sequence.  Hence, the numerator remains just 1, not 3. 

Although the numerator remains 1, a crucial change occurs in the denominator.  The number of outcomes or possible patterns in the denominator grows at an exponential rate as the complexity of the target pattern increases. The first flip makes possible two outcomes (dot or dash), the second four (dot dot, dash dash, dot dash or dash dot), and the third eight (2x2x2 = 8).  What we find is that the numerator remains constant at one, with each increase in sequence complexity, requiring a serial multiplication in the number of possible outcomes: 

 

                                                          T  (1 trial of 3 flips)                     
PFprobability of function =   —————————— = 0.125
                                                          O (2x2x2)

 

Suppose the desired function is the message “help” to be spelled out in Morse code language using three dots, three dashes and three dots.  In this case, the number of trials remains one, but the nine steps needed to get to function requires nine flips of the two sided coin.  Thus the number of outcomes provided by each flip, being 2, must be serially multiplied by each other so that the number of possible outcomes becomes 2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2= 29 =512.  So the probability is 1/512 = .0019.

The exponential increase in possible outcomes is illustrated nicely in the following example.  Suppose a friend of yours, John, needs help.  He is adrift at sea in a swamped raft and needs to be rescued immediately.  Although the word “help” is functional or meaningful, it does not do the job.  We also need the message to specify who needs the help.  So we need a message that says “Help John” in Morse Code.  The Morse Code for “John” is a dot and three dashes for “J,” three dashes for  “O,” four dots for “H,” and a dash and a dot for “N.”  This adds an additional 13 flips to each trial.  So, now the total sequence needed in the message is 9 +13 = 22.  The probability of getting the Morse Code sequence for “SOS John” in a single 22 flip trial is 1 over 2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2 2x2x2x2x2 or 1/222  or 1/4,194,304.   The math looks like this:      

                                                                           

                                                First 9 flips             =    1/512

                                                Flip 10    = 2×512=                 1/1,024

                                                Flip 11    =2×1,024=               1/2,048

                                                Flips 12-17…….…… =           1/131,072

                                                Flip 18    =2×131,072=           1/262,144

                                                Flip 19    =2×262,144=           1/524,288

                                                Flip 20    =2×524,288=           1/1,048,576

                                                Flip 21    =2×1,048,576=        1/2,097,152

                                                Flip 22    =2×2,097,152=        1/4,194,304 

 

Notice how probability declines exponentially due to the concomitant exponential increase in the number of outcomes.  Consider our earlier equation:

                                                 T number of trials for function                      
PFprobability of function =   ——————————————
                                                 O possible outcomes   

The number below the line is important, because it tells you the number of trials you would realistically have to put in the numerator – above the line – to get to a probable outcome. If the denominator calls for 8 outcomes, then you need 8 trials for the event to be probable.  If the denominator calls for 4 million outcomes you need 4 million trials.  But what if you don’t have enough time or resources to run 4 million trials?  If you could do ten 22 flip trials in an hour it would take 48 years of constant flipping to expect a random generator to send a functional message that might get help to John.  By then it would be too late.         

 So, armed with this basic knowledge of probability theory, you ask, what is the chance of the  “T”, “h”, “i,” “n,” and “k” being pulled and then put in the correct positions in Maggie’s ‘Relationship’ game?  The number of possible pull outcomes consists of 55 since there are always 55 different letters in the box.  The number of possible put outcomes are 100 since there are 100 different squares on which any letter may be placed.  Thus, the number of possible outcomes for any pull-put step is 55 x 100 = 5,500.  However five pull-put steps are required for one trial.  The number of possible outcomes for one five step trial is 5,500 x 5,500 x 5,500 x 5,500 x 5,500 = 5,032,843,750,000,000,000.  So the probability is one over 5 trillion trillion:

                T:            1/5,500

                Th:          1/5,500 x 1/5,500 = 1/30,350,000

                Thi:         1/5,500 x 1/5,500 x 1/5,500 = 1/166,375,000,000

                Thin:       1/5,500 x 1/5,500 x 1/5,500 x 1/5,500 = 1/915,062,500,000,000 (915 trillion)

                Think:     1/5,500 x 1/5,500 x 1/5,500 x 1/5,500 x 1/5,500 = 1/5,032,843,750,000,000,000 (5 trillion trillion)

 

When does improbability equate to practical impossibility?  As one looks at the gargantuan number – one over 5 trillion, trillion, one could argue that even with such low probability, it is still possible that “Think” just might appear on the first trial – its possible.   But the question is, can we reasonably expect a chance process to produce a specified or needed effect within a given amount of time?  If not, then it is unreasonable for us to rely on the chance process to produce the effect.  In our example the robot is only pulling letters at the rate of ten an hour.  Suppose the board is automatically cleared after each five pulls.  Only two five sequence trials an hour are now permitted.  To expect “Think” to arise by chance would take 2.5 trillion, trillion hours or 574 trillion years.  The universe is only 14 billion years old.  By adding trillions of robots we could maybe get within the age of the universe, but who would be around to “think,” after the production of the message?  Given these odds, it is not  reasonable for us to attribute the apparently meaningful command of “Think” to chance rather than to a mind.
 
Imagine a safe cracker that has only six hours in the middle of the night to open the bank vault having a combination lock with 100 set points and a combination that requires the knob to be turned to three correct numbers in sequence.  Each trial consists of three turns.  The possible number of outcomes is 1/100 x 1/100 x 1/100 = 1/1,000,000.  If it takes a minute to do each three turn trial, we could realistically expect the robber to take 16,667 hours to open the safe.  He only has six.  A combination lock could be made with 1,000 set points and require ten turns to the correct number.  But, as a practical matter that extra degree of complexity is not needed. Combination locks reflect the amount of complexity needed to establish practical impossibility within a specified time.  
 
Mathematician William Dembski argues that anything less probable than one over 10150 is statistically impossible as a practical matter (Refs 2-3).  The number is based on the number of elemental particles in the universe (electrons, protons and neutrons) which is about 1080 , multiplied by the number of times an elemental particle changes state within a second, which is 1045, multiplied by the number of seconds which have elapsed since the beginning of the universe, assuming it arose about a billion times 20 billion years ago, which is 1025 seconds ago (1080x1045x1025=10150).  The number 10150 quantifies all of the time and opportunities – probability resources – available in the entire universe for any given sequence of past events to have occurred by chance.  It represents the largest number that one could put in the numerator for any set of events within this universe.  The number is helpful, because it can be used to assess whether it is reasonable to round the probability of an event to zero, as a practical matter.
 
For example, assume every elemental particle in the universe was a monkey flipping coins at the rate of 1045 flips a second.  Could we reasonably expect them to produce a sequence of heads and tails that would match the first sentence in Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address in Morse code?
 
 “Four score and seven years ago, our fathers brought forth upon this continent a new nation,
conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.” 
 
The sentence contains 177 letters, spaces and punctuation marks.  It can be sent with a 577 symbol sequence of dots and dashes in Morse code.  The probability is 1 over 2577,  which is the same as 1 over 10173.  Since the 10173 number is significantly less probable than the universal probability limit of 10150, a reasonable person would not bet on the monkeys, even if they started flipping at the beginning of the universe.
 
As you return to the word “Think” on Maggie’s game board and think of the odds of one over five trillion, trillion, you conclude that it is not reasonable to believe that the relationship between the five letters was ordered just by chance.  While 1/5,032,843,750,000,000,000 does not exceed the 1/10150 discussed above, there just has not been enough time in the known universe assuming that the robot is pulling letters at the rate of ten an hour. You also know that physics doesn’t order the sequence.  Physics and chemistry can order the relationship between the discs and the board but they can’t order the relationship between the discs themselves to require that they manifest the word “Think.”
 
So, you think somehow Maggie must have snuck into the room and fiddled with the discs while you were making the pie.  Isn’t it amazing how smart a five year old grand child can be!
 
In summary, this vignette illustrates the inherent problem of attributing complex functional sequences to chance.  As the complexity of the sequence increases, its chance probability decreases exponentially.  Within finite realms, chance losses its plausibility with only small increases in complexity.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Next Week- Part II: The Ultimate Relationship – Analyzing Patterns That Comprise Life

ABOUT THE AUTHORS

Robert Deyes holds a Masters Degree in Medical Genetics from the University of Glasgow and a Bachelors Degree in Molecular Biology from the University of Portsmouth, UK.  He carried out an 18-month research project at the Université Louis Pasteur in Strasbourg, France.  John Calvert, JD, holds a Bachelors degree and professional experience in Geology and is Managing Director of Intelligent Design Network Inc, a non-profit organization that seeks institutional objectivity in origins science. 

 

BIBLIOGRAPHY   

1. Jacques Monod, Chance and Necessity, pp 112-3 (Vintage Books 1971); Molecular Biologist known for his work on gene expression in the Lac Operon.  Nobel Prize in Physiology

 

2. William Dembski in The Design Inference: Eliminating Chance Through Small Probabilities, p.36 et. seq (Cambridge Press, 1998)

 

3. William Dembski in No Free Lunch: Why Specified Complexity Cannot Be Purchased Without Intelligence, p.83 (Rowman & Littlefield, 2002) 

 

 

 

Comments
hazel [9] "elements of chance" "law and chance interacting over time" In the real world, natural selection, or random physical and chemical chance events that statistically don't have enough time to ever get off the ground, cannot account for macroevolution, which has yet to be observed to this day. Everyone recognizes micro changes as nature takes its course but the complex systems we observe today in the biological world throw even 21st century technology back in the middle ages. There is no room for chance in the slightest. I would say no chance in hell, but that wouldn't be very academic. At this point, consciousness being the source of the designs for these complex systems remains more credible than the implausible chance - to whatever the degree - alternative.absolutist
March 19, 2009
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djmullen is correct: the Deyes/Calvert scenario does not model anything in the biological world, and neither will their next installment when they apply their simplistic math to DNA. The reason is that their scenario is assuming that individual parts fall together entirely by chance, without any lawful interactions between the parts over time, and no one thinks that is the case. So their calculations demonstrate nothing.hazel
March 19, 2009
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djmullen (1) wrote: "In evolution, the first disk on the board represents the first self-reproducing entity. (Which would be something simple enough to assemble in one step despite the odds - think a single piece of RNA or protein or a few pieces trapped inside a “cell” made of phospholipids, not a complete modern cell.)" Do you have any idea how complex a single piece of RNA, or protein is?!! Of all the combinations of nucleotides; of all the combinations of amino acids, there are very few combinations that actually form a FUNCTIONING RNA or protein. A functioning protein is hardly something that could form in one step! Is this the quality of scientific explanation we should expect from Darwinists?!! "All's ya need is somethin really simple that could form in one step. Ya know, like a protein!" djmullen also wrote: "It’s not enough to be a good mathematician and do good math. The math has to represent something in the biological world to mean anything about biology and your example and Dr. Dembski’s examples do not represent anything in the biological world." My friend, you need to read a biology book and take a look at what's actually IN the biological world. Proteins do not form out of thin air. They are encoded by DNA.Clumsy Brute
March 19, 2009
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Well, I don't think the analogy between nature and language is very useful, but I'd like to comment on this: You write, "... it implies something about the structure of nature (first of all that it cannot be randomly structured)." I don't think anyone thinks nature is randomly structured. Yes, random, contingent events happen all the time within nature, but the lawful regularities are what drive the show.hazel
March 19, 2009
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Hazel [46]: OK to bring it back to the Zachriel Algorithm (did he originate that - I'm assuming he did) it is supposed to illustrate that random incremental searches for words and sentences perform much much better than blind chance (really there's no comparison to blind chance at all), but the reason this is true is because of the hieriarchy and organization of English, that is, it has an identifiable nonrandom solution landscape that can be exploited. So you can progress through the development of more and more complex words and sentences with no foresight at all, essentially because foresight is built somehow into the system (not built into it intentionally necessarly) but inherent in the system nonetheless. Well, if nature is searchable in an analogous fashion it implies something about the structure of nature (first of all that it cannot be randomly structured), so that perhaps we could even compare nature itself to human language.JT
March 19, 2009
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You are anthropomorphising nature. There is no thing "nature" out there "recognizing" anything. There are just organisms living and reproducing, and on average some traits that vary within the population convey a bit of an advantage and thus become more predominant. You don't need any over-seeing intelligence (in the sense of coming from a mind) for this to happen. This is one reason why the word games are so misleading - because they have to have a mind who is aware of what are real words and what are not, so they make it look like mindful intelligence is a necessary part of the equation. But in the real world, it's not.hazel
March 19, 2009
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hazel, I agree to some extent. Certainly simple exercises like this one (or Dawkin's Weasel) do not constitute evidence that evolutionary theory is true. But they can illustrate the concepts in a way that cuts through the unimaginable complexity seen in nature. I know Dawkins is a bad word around here, but I recall reading The Blind Watchmaker when I was younger and I really enjoyed the parts about his computer simulations. Having strange and beautiful behavior emerge from simple algorithms is a really cool phenomenon and helped inspire me to study Computer Science.DanSLO
March 19, 2009
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No, nature is not random. But its not like the only two options are complete and utter chaos or intelligence. If you want to call nature 'intelligent' you can, but I feel that is diluting the meaning of that word. I realize we are already waist deep in abstract analogies, but consider throwing a baseball up in the air. The path of the baseball is governed by a complex set of mathematical equations involving gravity, momentum, and air resistance. It certainly is not random. But would it be accurate to call that 'intelligence'?DanSLO
March 19, 2009
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DanSLO [41]: So nature is not random. So what is it then? If some complex physical chemical configuration comes into existence, and nature recognizes how that configuration confers in a complex way a competitive advantage to an animal, what does that say about the "intelligence" of Nature? I am undecided though.JT
March 19, 2009
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The analogy between words and anything that happens in the physical world is so weak that, in my opinion, all these exercises (such as this one, or Dawkins's) spread more confusing smoke over the issues than illuminating fire.hazel
March 19, 2009
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It seems like you're saying that it doesn't matter if the knowledge of human words is coming from the algorithm (a dictionary) or the environment the algorithm is operating in (the human providing input), correct? I would agree in that both of those require the existence and knowledge of human words. In this case, the algorithm is being steered towards a goal using some knowledge that has to be already present. However, if we go ahead and try to make an analogy between this algorithm and naturalistic evolution (which is what we're really arguing about, I think), I don't think it requires any kind of transcendental knowledge, unless you define knowledge in such a way that it becomes rather meaningless. Differential reproductive success, which is the force guiding evolution, is not dependent on any kind of 'knowledge', especially not human knowledge - it simply is the result of organisms competing for limited resources.DanSLO
March 19, 2009
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necessity(chance)JT
March 19, 2009
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f(x) process(environment) nurture(nature) ID(evolution)JT
March 19, 2009
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No problem, as I said in 32, I understand the point you and BL Harville were making. But to reiterate my point, in 34 the distinction between process and environment may not be relevant.JT
March 19, 2009
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Well, you said this:
But the point is , such an evolutionary process would absolutely require “knowledge” of human words.
Perhaps I misunderstood where you were going with that. I took it to mean that you were saying that evolutionary processes cannot have knowledge, therefore since this algorithm requires knowledge, it is therefore not a good analogue to naturalistic evolution. Maybe I kind of jumped the gun on that one, and my wording was a bit unclear, sorry about that.DanSLO
March 19, 2009
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Just a view questions that puzzle me... When does a code becomes a machine that builds humans? What type of "Weasel algorithm" is going to show how a building machine arise that can actually build (like a robot) what the code is only a blueprint of? Or... is the code the physical outcome? Is the syntax the guided action that orders matter into life? In coding, design, robotics and biology we can clearly see what is needed to transfer the blue print syntax to the intended physical outcome. It is human intervention or a purpose build decoding machine and robot that can physically act on commands. What is the point of this arguments if it has nothing to offer in regards to this fantastic natural transition from energy to meaning to intent to action to physical outcome? Are their any clever ID skeptic that might have honest insight into these questions? One of the logical consequences of this pipe dream argument is that it is inevitable that AI should have already spontaneously erupted from the googolplexes of syntax already generated. I suppose we all (Darwinists included) are already caught in the Evolutionary Matrix...mullerpr
March 19, 2009
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formatting: if f(x) = y, what difference does it make what proportion of the solution is coming from f and what proportion from xJT
March 19, 2009
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Also on the question of process vs. environment, if f(x) = y, what difference does it make what proportion of the solution is coming from f and what proportion from x - the point is that the english words themselves had to be exist previously to guide the selection process.JT
March 19, 2009
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DanSLO: You said, "OK, but if the algorithm cannot have knowledge of human words..." Out of curiousity, what did I write that made you think I thought that? Its the exact opposite of what I said in [18].JT
March 19, 2009
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DanSLO: I think I do see the distinction your making - it is between the process and the environment, so it is the environment itself (human culture in this case) that contains the solution.JT
March 19, 2009
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Maybe I misunderstood what you meant then. I think we can both agree that the only two ways for our hypothetical algorithm to generate human words is either for it to have some intrinsic knowledge of human words (access to a dictionary or something), or for it to have some way of externally verifying whether or not a sequence of letters resembles a word or not (via our human operator). I think the point that Harville and I are trying to make is that this algorithm (the second one with no intrinsic knowledge) is analogous to evolution in the natural world. The goal is reproductive success rather than producing human words, and the degree of success or failure of reaching the goal in each "iteration" is determined in a non-intelligent way by nature.DanSLO
March 19, 2009
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BL Harville, DanSLO: We can assume that the process was written by a human. But how is that relevant in an environment of only human artifacts? Everything in that room was created by a human, so that's a wash. The piano in the corner was written by a human too, but it cannot recognize human words. Our process can recongize words because it has that knowledge inherent in it - regardless if the original source was humans, aliens, or some dictionary list downloaded to the process data directory completely by accident.JT
March 19, 2009
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DanSLO [27]:
OK, but if the algorithm cannot have knowledge of human words and cannot interact with a human to find out if a given sequence is a word or not, how on earth can you expect it to generate human words?
What are you talking about? I said it would have to have knowledge of human words. I meant something encoded into it - or whether it was "encoded" as such or not, the process would have to operating in such a way as to preserve english words when they occured. It would not require real-time handholding by a human intermediary to make this function. It would only require a process with effective knowledge of human words.JT
March 19, 2009
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JT:
It seems you’re doing something similar to when people deny that a computer program operates according to chance and necessity by saying that a human being had to write the program.
I have no idea what you mean by this.
BL Harville, I asked what minimal changes where necessary to render the process evolutionary? You can’t be serious that we have to have an actual human interacting with the program in real-time to confirm or deny an English word.
The human mind is the environment in which human words need to be tested. How else can they be tested? We could give the machine a list of words to check sequences against but that list would be generated by human beings.B L Harville
March 19, 2009
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OK, but if the algorithm cannot have knowledge of human words and cannot interact with a human to find out if a given sequence is a word or not, how on earth can you expect it to generate human words? Language is a human invention, its not like a naked algorithm operating without knowledge of human languages can just pluck it out of the ether. I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say in [25] either, can you clarify that?DanSLO
March 19, 2009
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BL Harville, I asked what minimal changes where necessary to render the process evolutionary? You can't be serious that we have to have an actual human interacting with the program in real-time to confirm or deny an english word. If you respond, "Ahhh, yes - but who wrote the program - A human being", that's the same argument creationists make (and a lot of ID'ists for that matter). Its a bogus argument for them, tooJT
March 19, 2009
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[21,22] It seems you're doing something similar to when people deny that a computer program operates according to chance and necessity by saying that a human being had to write the program.JT
March 19, 2009
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DanSLO beat me to it. I guess I type too slow!B L Harville
March 19, 2009
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On a side note, the introduction of spatiality into the discussion (by virtue of the 2-D grid) is unwarranted. I'm going to retract that statement. The first one or two characters are not bound by location, but the others are. OTOH if a process is generating letters in a specific locale, chances are it will do so again. So, I'll retract my retraction.JT
March 19, 2009
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JT When the letters t,h,i,n, and k appear on the board it has subjective meaning for the person looking at the board. The letters are essentially tested in the human mind. If the letters form no recognizable pattern to the viewer then they are just letters - otherwise the letters have subjective meaning. I did not spell out earlier how the selection version would work but it would be something like this: The machine places a letter on the board. A human looks at the board, decides whether they recognize a pattern or not, and indicate to the machine either pass or fail. The machine would have to be altered to allow this of course. If pass is indicated the machine can then put another letter on the board, otherwise the machine removes the previous letter. In addition to adding letters the machine could also randomly remove letters, insert letters, switch letters, etc.B L Harville
March 19, 2009
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