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We’ve talked about near-death experiences. What about visions of hell?

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Oddly, even distressing near-death experiences have had positive effects, say researchers:

One researcher observes at Psychology Today that the strongest predictor of a successful suicide attempt is a previous failed suicide attempt—unless the person has had a near-death experience, in which case further suicide attempts are unlikely.

News, “What if a near-death experience is a vision of hell?” at Mind Matters News

Remember when all this was supposed to be easily explained away?

Further reading: Do near-death experiences defy science? NDEs do not defy science. They sometimes challenge human senses, which are based on our biology. For example, if the human eye’s usual limitations were not a factor, previously unknown colors—which we KNOW from science to exist—might be perceived.

and

Why medical scientists take near-death experiences seriously now Today, we know much more about what happens to people when they die—and what we are learning does not support materialism. Near-death experiences are generally seen as real, even among hardcore skeptics and research focuses on how to account for them.

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Comments
Peter (@ 40), I included that information just to avoid any future claim of bias, etc. I can only offer evidence from what was told to me. It obviously is not "proof" of anything, but you can at least see why I found it interesting and raised questions in my mind. My wife was working the ER when an unconscious patient came in. She witnessed the arrest on the monitor and gave a powerful precordial thump. They went on to resuscitate the patient and shipped him unconscious up to the ICU. The next day when she came in to work she was told that the patient wanted to see the nurse who worked on her. She went up and the patient immediately recognized her. The patient told her that he had seen her ready to hit him, had braced himself, and was surprised that he did not feel anything when her fist came down. Pretty good for a patient who was unconscious and flat-lined. I know what was reported to me. You have to decide for yourself how you will react. You have the free will to totally reject it, enthusiastically accept it, or just add it to your accumulated knowledge as something that may be of use in the future. This event was not investigated but it gives me confidence in believing the number of events that have been reportedly investigated and show similar phenomena. Thank You and God BlessGCS
December 11, 2019
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Axel - I had only just briefly heard about the events in Kibeho. That is fascinating information - I will look into it more! Yes, if she made it to a vision of Seraphim, then she was "way up there". :) I'm interested in this sort of thing in Africa. I've been reading Cdl. Sarah's newest book, and he reflects on the great work of the Holy Ghost Fathers working in Gabon at the time. They had a tremendous effect on the society - and we see good results across Africa today.Silver Asiatic
December 11, 2019
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Re your #44, Silver Asiatic, glad you liked that piece, so full of scientifically-established and verified miracles. I found it stunning ; in effect, so rich in that regard as to presage a resolution of salvation history, as indeed, the Shroud before it, does in reality. I doubt if we will hear anything on the subject from our atheist interlocutors. as it seems difficult to imagine plausible criticisms. As regards testimonial evidence of a particularly unique, so to speak, 'waking' NDE, have any of you, I wonder, heard and looked into the extraordinary mystical happenings at Kibeho, in Rwanda, which place was relatively speedily elevated to an official place of pilgrimage on a par with no less than Lourdes. I believe such official sanctioning by the Vatican of Medjugorje is still anticipated, but still pending, One of the school-girls concerned made it known that she would be in a deep coma over an Easter weekend, but asked that she should not be buried, as, despite medical checks indicating otherwise, she would not be dead, but would wake up on the Easter Sunday. This happened. During her NDE, she was actually taken up to see the Cherubim and Seraphim praising God in Heaven, which is pretty 'big beer', considering their egregiously exalted status. Our biggest 'big-shots' among the angels are the archangels, though apparently they are of relatively modest status, in comparison. The glory of our holy guardian-angels is said to be wonderful in our eyes, not to speak of their power, so imagine the glory of those of the angels higher up the scale !Axel
December 11, 2019
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Ed G
I don’t mean to be flippant, but I often have what are typically called lucid dreams. In these I am outside my body. I see things and hear things that most would say were not possible. And I often see these things while also seeing my animated body going about it’s normal activities. Although these dreams are remarkably similar to some recollections of NDEs, I was nowhere close to death. I don’t pretend to understand the metaphysics behind my dreams, but why aren’t these types of dreams, which I understand are not uncommon, treated in the same way that people here view NDEs?
A few things. First, you're giving testimonial evidence about what you've experienced. Ok, for me, the wrong (and stupid) approach towards your claim is to dismiss what you've said and demand "evidence". Obviously, in order to proceed I should accept what you experienced as being accurate and then try to understand it. If what you said is true, then it's a valid part of reality that we have to try to understand. We don't shut you down because science does not have an answer. Some of your dreams are vivid and you have an out-of-body experience where you observe (see and hear) things that would otherwise be impossible. Yes, that's some of what commonly happens with NDEs. I would say also that it's extremely unusual for people to have dreams like that, where you observe not a dream-state, but the actual reality around you, and see or hear things that actual people are saying or doing around you, which would be impossible to hear otherwise. For example, if you could hear a conversation or see what people are doing in your neighbor's house - that's an out of body experience, and the kind of telepathy that NDEs show. If that happens to you somewhat frequently, I'd try to learn more about it. Again, I don't think anyone would call your experience the ordinary sort of dream. But as to why people do not get excited about ordinary dreams versus NDEs is that most ordinary dreams are about a dream-state of some kind. But NDEs have common elements and people describe the experience as a vivid and life-changing event. Ordinary dreams do not have that characteristic. Michael Egnor gives a reasonable overview of NDEs. He does not accept all of them as evidence of an afterlife or of a soul. As with your own dreams, you're giving anecdotal evidence. To really study what is going on, we'd need to know the content of your dream and how you really view it. Since the NDE-er can be deluded about what was experienced, it takes a lot of independent testimonies to collect and find commonality. But in the end, even if only a small percentage of NDEs reflect an objective reality, then that tells us something about the human soul and how it exists after death.
People in comas don’t have “dreams” as we understand them (if they’re dreaming, they’re sleeping, which is not coma). There is no simple medical explanation for such a rich complex experience, which occurred when the man’s brain function was so minimal that he was comatose, a state associated with neurological disability so profound that speaking or comprehending or even purposefully moving are impossible. The most “parsimonious” explanation — the simplest scientific explanation — is that the experience was real.
When the brain activity is so minimal that the person cannot even function enough to move the body, then to claim that the brain actively creates predictive and out-of-body activity at the same time is contradictory.Silver Asiatic
December 11, 2019
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Acartia Eddie:
but what are dreams other than out of body experiences?
In what way are dreams an out of body experience? Just asking a question or making a bald assertion isn't an argument, Eddie. You still have to make a case, which you never doET
December 11, 2019
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As well, Near Death Experiencers also frequently mention going through a tunnel to a higher heavenly dimension:
Ask the Experts: What Is a Near-Death Experience (NDE)? – article with video Excerpt: “Very often as they’re moving through the tunnel, there’s a very bright mystical light … not like a light we’re used to in our earthly lives. People call this mystical light, brilliant like a million times a million suns…” – Jeffrey Long M.D. – has studied NDE’s extensively The Tunnel and the Near-Death Experience Excerpt: One of the nine elements that generally occur during NDEs is the tunnel experience. This involves being drawn into darkness through a tunnel, at an extremely high speed, until reaching a realm of radiant golden-white light.
In the following video, Barbara Springer gives her testimony as to what it felt like for her to go through the tunnel:
“I started to move toward the light. The way I moved, the physics, was completely different than it is here on Earth. It was something I had never felt before and never felt since. It was a whole different sensation of motion. I obviously wasn’t walking or skipping or crawling. I was not floating. I was flowing. I was flowing toward the light. I was accelerating and I knew I was accelerating, but then again, I didn’t really feel the acceleration. I just knew I was accelerating toward the light. Again, the physics was different – the physics of motion of time, space, travel. It was completely different in that tunnel, than it is here on Earth. I came out into the light and when I came out into the light, I realized that I was in heaven.” Barbara Springer – Near Death Experience – The Tunnel – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv2jLeoAcMI
And in the following audio clip, Vicki Noratuk, (who has been blind from birth, besides being able to see for the first time during in her life during her Near Death Experience), Vicki also gives testimony of going through a tunnel:
“I was in a body, and the only way that I can describe it was a body of energy, or of light. And this body had a form. It had a head, it had arms and it had legs. And it was like it was made out of light. And it was everything that was me. All of my memories, my consciousness, everything.”,,, “And then this vehicle formed itself around me. Vehicle is the only thing, or tube, or something, but it was a mode of transportation that’s for sure! And it formed around me. And there was no one in it with me. I was in it alone. But I knew there were other people ahead of me and behind me. What they were doing I don’t know, but there were people ahead of me and people behind me, but I was alone in my particular conveyance. And I could see out of it. And it went at a tremendously, horrifically, rapid rate of speed. But it wasn’t unpleasant. It was beautiful in fact.,, I was reclining in this thing, I wasn’t sitting straight up, but I wasn’t lying down either. I was sitting back. And it was just so fast. I can’t even begin to tell you where it went or whatever it was just fast!” – Vicki’s NDE – Blind since birth – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e65KhcCS5-Y
And in the following quotes, the two Near Death Experiencers both testify that they firmly believed that they were in a higher heavenly dimension that is above this three-dimensional world, and that the reason that they have a very difficult time explaining what their Near Death Experiences actually felt like is because we simply don’t currently have the words to properly describe that higher dimension:
“Regardless, it is impossible for me to adequately describe what I saw and felt. When I try to recount my experiences now, the description feels very pale. I feel as though I’m trying to describe a three-dimensional experience while living in a two-dimensional world. The appropriate words, descriptions and concepts don’t even exist in our current language. I have subsequently read the accounts of other people’s near-death experiences and their portrayals of heaven and I able to see the same limitations in their descriptions and vocabulary that I see in my own.” Mary C. Neal, MD – To Heaven And Back pg. 71 “Well, when I was taking geometry, they always told me there were only three dimensions, and I always just accepted that. But they were wrong. There are more… And that is why so hard for me to tell you this. I have to describe with words that are three-dimensional. That’s as close as I can get to it, but it’s really not adequate.” John Burke – Imagine Heaven pg. 51 – quoting a Near Death Experiencer
That what we now know to be true from special relativity, (namely that it outlines a 'timeless' higher dimesion that exists above this temporal dimension), would fit hand and glove with the personal testimonies of people who have had a deep heavenly NDE is, needless to say, powerful evidence that their testimonies are, in fact, accurately describing the 'reality' of a higher heavenly dimension that exists above this temporal real. And while it is certainly true that one cannot place too much emphasis on just one Near Death Experience as being undeniably true, none the less, since the experiences are verified repeatedly by millions of different people who have died for a short while and have come back to tell us of their experiences, then the ‘subjective observations’ of these people, (of a timeless eternity and of ‘going through a tunnel’), are, none the less, extremely reliable in that they do indeed exactly match the characteristics of what we would expect to be true beforehand from what we know to be scientifically true from special relativity. I would even go so far as to say that such corroboration from ‘non-physicists’, who know nothing about the intricacies of special relativity, is a complete scientific verification for the overall validity of NDE testimonies.
Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.
Supplemental quote: ‘How You Think About Heaven Affects Everything in Life,’
Texas Pastor John Burke Says Near-Death Experiences Are ‘Amazingly Biblical’ (Video) – Oct 25, 2015 ‘How You Think About Heaven Affects Everything in Life,’ Says Gateway Church Pastor http://www.christianpost.com/news/texas-pastor-john-burke-says-near-death-experiences-are-amazingly-biblical-video-148156/
Supplemental note: The reality of a soul that is capable of living beyond the death of our material bodies is now strongly supported by advances in quantum biology:
Darwinian Materialism vs. Quantum Biology – Part II - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSig2CsjKbg
Verse:
Mark 8:37 Is anything worth more than your soul?
bornagain77
December 11, 2019
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In posts 7 & 8 I addressed the atheist's claim that NDEs are 'just dreams'
To sum up, NDE's are found to be 'more real that real', which is very interesting since EVERYTHING, including the atheist himself, turns out to be ultimately illusory and imaginary in his materialistic worldview. And, in further irony of ironies, not even the material particles themselves turn out to be solid, and concrete, and therefore ‘real’ on the materialistic definition of what is supposed to be ‘real’, but the supposedly solid and concrete material particles themselves turn out instead to be made of “abstract” immaterial information that represent, as Werner Heinsenberg himself stated, “our knowledge of this behavior” https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/weve-talked-about-near-death-experiences-what-about-visions-of-hell/#comment-689335
Not to be picky, but if the atheistic materialists on UD want to be able to differentiate what is real from what is imaginary in the first place, should they not first reject their materialistic worldview in which EVERYTHING, including atoms and even atheists themselves, turn out to be imaginary? It would seem to be a more than reasonable request that atheists, in their forsaking of the primacy of consciousness in any definition of reality that we may put forth, (as was also pointed out in posts 7 & 8), at least honestly admit that they have no basis within their materialistic worldview to differentiate what is imaginary from what is real in the first place. But alas, honesty seems to be a virtue that is in short supply with the atheists on UD. To repeat what Dr. Egnor astutely obsevered, atheists are hardly being fair in their evidentary standards when it comes to judiciously evaluating the evidence for NDEs as compared to evaluating the 'non-evidence' that they are willing to accept for Darwinian evolution:
Near-Death Experiences: Putting a Darwinist’s Evidentiary Standards to the Test – Dr. Michael Egnor – October 15, 2012 Excerpt: Indeed, about 20 percent of NDE’s are corroborated, which means that there are independent ways of checking about the veracity of the experience. The patients knew of things that they could not have known except by extraordinary perception — such as describing details of surgery that they watched while their heart was stopped, etc. Additionally, many NDE’s have a vividness and a sense of intense reality that one does not generally encounter in dreams or hallucinations.,,, The most “parsimonious” explanation — the simplest scientific explanation — is that the (Near Death) experience was real. Tens of millions of people have had such experiences. That is tens of millions of more times than we have observed the origin of species , (or the origin of life, or the origin of a protein/gene, or of a molecular machine), which is never.,,, The materialist reaction, in short, is unscientific and close-minded. NDE’s show fellows like Coyne at their sneering unscientific irrational worst. Somebody finds a crushed fragment of a fossil and it’s earth-shaking evidence. Tens of million of people have life-changing spiritual experiences and it’s all a big yawn. Note: Dr. Egnor is professor and vice-chairman of neurosurgery at the State University of New York at Stony Brook. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/near_death_expe_1065301.html
In regards to empirical evidence itself, the 'common sense' fact that consciousness must be primary in any definition of reality that we may put forth is now verified in quantum mechanics in the falsification of 'realism'. "Realism" is the belief that a material reality exists independently of our conscious observation of it.
Quantum physics says goodbye to reality - Apr 20, 2007 Excerpt: They found that, just as in the realizations of Bell's thought experiment, Leggett's inequality is violated – thus stressing the quantum-mechanical assertion that reality does not exist when we're not observing it. "Our study shows that 'just' giving up the concept of locality would not be enough to obtain a more complete description of quantum mechanics," Aspelmeyer told Physics Web. "You would also have to give up certain intuitive features of realism." http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/27640 Reality doesn’t exist until we measure it, (Delayed Choice) quantum experiment confirms – Mind = blown. – FIONA MACDONALD – 1 JUN 2015 Excerpt: “It proves that measurement is everything. At the quantum level, reality does not exist if you are not looking at it,” lead researcher and physicist Andrew Truscott said in a press release. http://www.sciencealert.com/reality-doesn-t-exist-until-we-measure-it-quantum-experiment-confirms
Thus atheists, are now empirically shown to be wrong in their denial of the primacy of consciousness in any definition of reality that we may put forth. Again, atheists, especially with the falsification of realism, simply have no basis within their materialistic worldview to differentiate what is imaginary from what is real. Thus, the militant atheists can state their personal opinion all day long that they believe that NDEs are imaginary but the Christian Theist can readily reply, 'So what, EVERYTHING, including atoms, and even you yourself, are imaginary in your materialistic worldview?' Moreover, besides quantum mechanics falsifying materialism, (i.e. falsifying 'realism'), and verifying Theism, (and as was already pointed out), the Christian can also point to what we now know to be true from special (and general) relativity to support the "reality" of NDEs. As we now know from special relativity, time, as we understand it, comes to a complete stop for a hypothetical observer travelling at the speed of light. To grasp the whole concept of time coming to a complete stop at the speed of light a little more easily, imagine moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light. Would not the hands on the clock stay stationary as you moved away from the face of the clock at the speed of light? Moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light happens to be the very same ‘thought experiment’ that gave Einstein his breakthrough insight into special relativity. Here is a short clip from a video that gives us a look into Einstein’s breakthrough insight.
Einstein: Einstein’s Miracle Year (‘Insight into Eternity’ – Thought Experiment 55 second mark) – video http://www.history.com/topics/albert-einstein/videos/einstein-einsteins-miracle-year
That time, as we understand it, comes to a complete stop at the speed of light, and yet light moves from point A to point B in our universe, and thus light is obviously not ‘frozen within time, has some fairly profound implications.
“The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass.” Dr. Richard Swenson – More Than Meets The Eye, Chpt. 11
The only way it is possible for time not to pass for light, and yet for light to move from point A to point B in our universe, is if light is of a higher dimensional value of time than the temporal time we are currently living in. Otherwise light would simply be ‘frozen within time’ to our temporal frame of reference. And indeed that is exactly what we find. “Hermann Minkowski- one of the math professors of a young Einstein in Zurich—presented a geometric interpretation of special relativity that fused time and the three spatial dimensions of space into a single four-dimensional continuum now known as Minkowski space.”
Spacetime Excerpt: In 1908, Hermann Minkowski—once one of the math professors of a young Einstein in Zurich—presented a geometric interpretation of special relativity that fused time and the three spatial dimensions of space into a single four-dimensional continuum now known as Minkowski space. A key feature of this interpretation is the definition of a spacetime interval that combines distance and time. Although measurements of distance and time between events differ for measurements made in different reference frames, the spacetime interval is independent of the inertial frame of reference in which they are recorded. Minkowski’s geometric interpretation of relativity was to prove vital to Einstein’s development of his 1915 general theory of relativity, wherein he showed that spacetime becomes curved in the presence of mass or energy.,,, Einstein, for his part, was initially dismissive of Minkowski’s geometric interpretation of special relativity, regarding it as überflüssige Gelehrsamkeit (superfluous learnedness). However, in order to complete his search for general relativity that started in 1907, the geometric interpretation of relativity proved to be vital, and in 1916, Einstein fully acknowledged his indebtedness to Minkowski, whose interpretation greatly facilitated the transition to general relativity.[10]:151–152 Since there are other types of spacetime, such as the curved spacetime of general relativity, the spacetime of special relativity is today known as Minkowski spacetime. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime
One way for us to more easily understand this higher dimensional framework for time that light exist in is to visualize what would happen if a hypothetical observer approached the speed of light. In the following video clip, which was made by two Australian University Physics Professors, we find that the 3-Dimensional world ‘folds and collapses’ into a tunnel shape as a ‘hypothetical’ observer approaches the ‘higher dimension’ of the speed of light.
Optical Effects of Special Relativity – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQnHTKZBTI4
OK now that we have outlined the basics of what we know to be true from special relativity, It is very interesting to note that many of the characteristics found in heavenly Near Death Experience testimonies are exactly what we would expect to see from what we now know to be true about Special Relativity. For instance, many times people who have had a Near Death Experience mention that their perception of time was radically altered. In the following video clip, Mickey Robinson gives his Near Death testimony of what it felt like for him to experience a ‘timeless eternity’.
‘In the ‘spirit world,,, instantly, there was no sense of time. See, everything on earth is related to time. You got up this morning, you are going to go to bed tonight. Something is new, it will get old. Something is born, it’s going to die. Everything on the physical plane is relative to time, but everything in the spiritual plane is relative to eternity. Instantly I was in total consciousness and awareness of eternity, and you and I as we live in this earth cannot even comprehend it, because everything that we have here is filled within the veil of the temporal life. In the spirit life that is more real than anything else and it is awesome. Eternity as a concept is awesome. There is no such thing as time. I knew that whatever happened was going to go on and on.’ In The Presence Of Almighty God – The NDE of Mickey Robinson – video (testimony starts at 27:45 minute mark) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voak1RM-pXo
And here are a few more quotes from people who have experienced Near Death, that speak of how their perception of time was radically altered as they were outside of their material body during their NDEs.
‘Earthly time has no meaning in the spirit realm. There is no concept of before or after. Everything – past, present, future – exists simultaneously.’ – Kimberly Clark Sharp – Near Death Experiencer ‘There is no way to tell whether minutes, hours or years go by. Existence is the only reality and it is inseparable from the eternal now.’ – John Star – NDE Experiencer
bornagain77
December 11, 2019
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Ed George @ 57
I don’t mean to be flippant, but I often have what are typically called lucid dreams
To quote Mr Spock, fascinating! I first became aware of lucid dreams following a Star Trek: Voyager episode that was based on the phenomenon. I eventually got into contact with a couple in Philadelphia who were conducting research into them and had published a book based on their work. Up until then I had absolutely no idea that about 50% of the population experienced them because I am one of the other 50% who has never had one.Seversky
December 10, 2019
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SA
NDEs are sometimes very different from dreams,...
And sometimes not very different at all. I don’t mean to be flippant, but I often have what are typically called lucid dreams. In these I am outside my body. I see things and hear things that most would say were not possible. And I often see these things while also seeing my animated body going about it’s normal activities. Although these dreams are remarkably similar to some recollections of NDEs, I was nowhere close to death. I don’t pretend to understand the metaphysics behind my dreams, but why aren’t these types of dreams, which I understand are not uncommon, treated in the same way that people here view NDEs?Ed George
December 10, 2019
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EG
SA, but what are dreams other than out of body experiences?
NDEs are sometimes very different from dreams, where the person actually experiences being out of the body and yet fully present in "real life". There are cases where a patient has "died" and was able to overhear family members and doctors talking about her, and actually to see herself lying on the hospital bed. That's truly an out-of-body experience and not merely a fantasy.
And there are many common themes associated with dreams. But I don’t hear people arguing that dreams are anything other than a consequence of our subconscious brains.
Right, but it's not a question of having common themes. It's actually documented in the scientific literature that people encounter the same patterns of experience. And it's not just people arguing about it. Scientists are trying to come up with explanations. The minority view is that there is a subconscious activity left over somehow after brain-death. But obviously, a person who is clinically dead is in a different condition than is a person who is just dreaming while getting an ordinary night's sleep. Is there even any subconscious activity taking place? In those cases, there is no brain activity registering at all - so where and how are the NDE "dreams" occurring? That's all a part of the mystery, and simply saying that everybody is having a shared-hallucination is not a good explanation.Silver Asiatic
December 10, 2019
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Pater
If Christianity is true, wouldn’t ALL non-christian NDE’s have visions of hell? And wouldn’t that be a large percentage of them?
It's an interesting question. My own Christian Faith is informed by a classical (so to speak), traditional view which I believe to be the correct one. But I think you're talking about a certain Protestant Christian view that holds that "all non-Christians necessarily will end up in hell". So, I would agree, if that version of Christianity was true (and I believe it is false) then yes, every non-Christian NDE should be a vision of hell. And, since it is not that way, it's good evidence that that version of Christianity is false. But there's another way to explain it also. I think what happens for some people, is that the NDE provides motivation to live a better life. This is actually part of the scientific literature where they document certain changes that occur for people who had an NDE. This is not only for visions of hell, which motivate people through fear, but also visions of the happiness of heaven - motivating people to live a good life for the happiness that lies ahead also, The NDE might be a sort of life-changing event that can help the person. In that case, a person who is estranged from God, a non-believer or a person opposed to a belief in an after-life, could be given a great insight by seeing the peacefulness and happiness that awaits a person who lives a morally good life. There are cases I have read of where a person encounters their Final Judgement and are condemned to hell, but through some incident they are given another chance and return to life again.Silver Asiatic
December 10, 2019
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SA, but what are dreams other than out of body experiences? And there are many common themes associated with dreams. But I don’t hear people arguing that dreams are anything other than a consequence of our subconscious brains. I would be interested to read some papers about the NDEs of blind people. We know that blind people don’t have “visual” dreams. Their dreams do not have any visual details. Now, if their out-of-body NDEs have visual details (as, apparently, those of sighted people do), I might be more likely to be convinced. After all, there is no reason to believe that the NDE of a blind person would be any different than that of a sighted person. Or a deaf person. Or a severely mentally damaged person.Ed George
December 10, 2019
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EG Ok, but that's the idea that NDEs are hallucinations but in this case "shared", and that's a lot more difficult to explain merely by citing similar values or beliefs. People actually report the same kind of events taking place, and that's what the clinical research shows. If merely having a religious belief can cause people to have the same afterlife, out-of-body experience, then that says something much more than they merely have the same mental biases. But as mentioned, this also does not explain the counter-examples where non-believers experienced the same sorts of events. My point previously was that we should be open-minded about what NDEs really could be. Sure, they could be some kind of natural, mental state but simply calling them dreams or hallucinations is not a sufficient explanation for what has been observed. Some scientists believe that NDEs are evidence of the existence of a human soul, for example.Silver Asiatic
December 10, 2019
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Pater, My thought has been similar. From a Christian view I think that does not apply. They are NEAR death experiences, so not full and complete death, meaning people can change and accept Christianity during the experience. I think you bring up a serious theological discussion. Some people would refer to the Calvinist view of "predestination", where individuals are chosen by God at birth to be saved for eternity. So in this view I would say that the experiences of those non believers is God showing them that they are "elect" and they will live with Him. In another corner you have the Armenian view, which means salvation is up to individual. God could be using these experiences selectively to intrigue wonder into the non believer so that they will accept God, and then use that tool to help "save" others. However there are places in the Bible where non believing individuals experience heavenly experiences. Paul's conversion in Acts is one of them.massam
December 10, 2019
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@ Silver Asiatic #46 said: "There are several stories of NDEs where the person experienced being condemned to hell and upon recovering made a radical change in their moral life." Several? If Christianity is true, wouldn't ALL non-christian NDE's have visions of hell? And wouldn't that be a large percentage of them?Pater Kimbridge
December 10, 2019
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SA, of course it could be a testament to the power of religious belief. But, on the other hand, it could also be as simple as a shared “delusion” due to shared religious belief. And, before anyone jumps all over me, I don’t mean “delusion” in a pejorative sense. Just that people with shared beliefs are likely to have shared biases, perceptions and interpretations. This applies to atheists as much as it does to Christians.Ed George
December 10, 2019
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SA, what I would be interested to know is how many of these documented NDEs are from people who are deeply religious. And, more importantly, do the experiences differ amongst the religions. Do you have any references that look at this? That information would be very interesting.
One study I read claimed that most NDEs came from people who had a religious orientation, but to me that just reflects the same distribution in our population. I haven't seen anything indicating that NDEs are mainly for the "deeply religious" though. And there are counter-examples of non-religious people experiencing the same pattern (out of body experience, heightened awareness, walking through tunnel towards light, encountering people). Even if NDEs were confined to religious people though, how would this explain why they happen and have these common elements? I would think it would be evidence of the effectiveness of religious belief, if anything. People who pray and think about heaven actually have a mystical experience (and experience is similar as what as others of the same belief have). Wouldn't that say something about the power of religious belief?Silver Asiatic
December 10, 2019
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per post 5:
while the hellish NDEs are fairly rare compared to heavenly NDEs in Judeo-Christian cultures,,, Distressing Near-Death Experiences: The estimated incidence of distressing NDEs (dNDEs) for western cultures has ranged from 1% to 15% of all NDEs (Bonenfant, 2001). The results of prospective studies in which the researchers interviewed everyone who experienced cardiac arrest in one or more hospitals during a period of at least several months are noteworthy. In the four prospective studies conducted between 1984 and 2001, involving a total of 130 NDErs, none reported distressing experiences. This finding seems to confirm that the experience is relatively rare in western cultures. while hellish NDEs are rare in Christian cultures,,, with rare exception, all foreign, i.e. non-Judeo-Christian, NDEs that I have looked at. (and I spent hours searching the web on this matter), are hellish in their characteristics. A Small Glimpse At The Preponderance Of Negative Near Death Experiences Being Found In Foreign, Non-Judeo-Christian, Cultures: Near-Death Experiences in Thailand: Excerpt: The Light seems to be absent in Thai NDEs. So is the profound positive affect found in so many Western NDEs. The most common affect in our collection is negative. Unlike the negative affect in so many Western NDEs (cf. Greyson & Bush, 1992), that found in Thai NDEs (in all but case #11) has two recognizable causes. The first is fear of `going’. The second is horror and fear of hell. It is worth noting that although half of our collection include seeing hell (cases 2,6,7,9,10) and being forced to witness horrific tortures, not one includes the NDEer having been subjected to these torments themselves. (Murphy 99) http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm Near Death Experience Thailand Asia – (personal testimony) video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8M5J3zWG5g A Comparative view of Tibetan and Western Near-Death Experiences by Lawrence Epstein University of Washington: Excerpt: Episode 5: The OBE systematically stresses the ‘das-log’s discomfiture, pain, disappointment, anger and disillusionment with others and with the moral worth of the world at large. The acquisition of a yid-lus and the ability to travel instantaneously are also found here. Episode 6: The ‘das-log, usually accompanied by a supernatural guide, tours bar-do, where he witnesses painful scenes and meets others known to him. They give him messages to take back. Episode 7: The ‘das-log witnesses trials in and tours hell. The crimes and punishments of others are explained to him. Tortured souls also ask him to take back messages to the living. —– Near-Death Experiences Among Survivors of the 1976 Tangshan Earthquake (Chinese) Excerpt: Our subjects reported NDE phemenological items not mentioned, or rarely mentioned in NDE’s reported from other countries: sensations of the world being exterminated or ceasing to exist, a sense of weightlessness, a feeling of being pulled or squeezed, ambivalence about death, a feeling of being a different person, or a different kind of person and unusual scents. The predominant phemenological features in our series were feeling estranged from the body as if it belonged to someone else, unusually vivid thoughts, loss of emotions, unusual bodily sensations, life seeming like a dream, a feeling of dying,,, These are not the same phemenological features most commonly found by researchers in other countries. Greyson (1983) reported the most common phemenological feature of American NDE’s to be a feeling of peace, joy, time stopping, experiencing an unearthly realm of existence, a feeling of cosmic unity, and a out of body experience. —- The Japanese find death a depressing experience – From an item by Peter Hadfield in the New Scientist (Nov. 30th 1991) Excerpt: A study in Japan shows that even in death the Japanese have an original way of looking at things. Instead of seeing ‘tunnels of light’ or having ‘out of body’ experiences, near-dead patients in Japanese hospitals tend to see rather less romantic images, according to researchers at Kyorin University. According to a report in the Mainichi newspaper, a group of doctors from Kyorin has spent the past year documenting the near-death experiences of 17 patients. They had all been resuscitated from comas caused by heart attacks, strokes, asthma or drug poisoning. All had shown minimal signs of life during the coma. Yoshia Hata, who led the team, said that eight of the 17 recalled ‘dreams’, many featuring rivers or ponds. Five of those patients had dreams which involved fear, pain and suffering. One 50-year-old asthmatic man said he had seen himself wade into a reservoir and do a handstand in the shallows. ‘Then I walked out of the water and took some deep breaths. In the dream, I was repeating this over and over.’ Another patient, a 73-year-old woman with cardiac arrest, saw a cloud filled with dead people. ‘It was a dark, gloomy day. I was chanting sutras. I believed they could be saved if they chanted sutras, so that is what I was telling them to do.’ Most of the group said they had never heard of Near-Death Experiences before. —- Also of note, I could not find where any particular branch of Christianity had an advantage over any other branch in terms of being more likely to having a heavenly NDE. The overriding factor that determined if you would have a heavenly NDE or not is if you are in a Judeo-Christian culture or not. In other words, cultural influences dominate. Of supplemental note to hellish NDEs in Judeo-Christian cultures: Imagine Heaven – What About Hell? – John Burke – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NWosBNDtgw Verse: Matthew 5 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to depart into hell.…
Also of note, the tunnel and 'the light' at the end of the tunnel', as well as the feeling of being beyond time, are all corroborated from what we would expect to see from what we know to be true about special relativity:
Quantum Mechanics, Special Relativity, General Relativity and Christianity - Short take (distilled explanation of how our best theories in physics corroborate the overriding defining features of NDEs) https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/is-spacetime-granular-on-the-smallest-of-scales/#comment-680474 Quantum Mechanics, Special Relativity, General Relativity and Christianity - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4QDy1Soolo
bornagain77
December 10, 2019
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SA, what I would be interested to know is how many of these documented NDEs are from people who are deeply religious. And, more importantly, do the experiences differ amongst the religions. Do you have any references that look at this? That information would be very interesting.Reapers Plague
December 10, 2019
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RP The clinical research analyzes just those sorts of things and certain patterns have emerged. There are always outliers but common elements in NDEs are that the person experiences an out-of-body event, a movement towards light and sometimes religious aspects. There are examples in the literature of experiences that go against the person's cultural background (atheists experiencing a mystical state and religious awareness) and children having the same kind of experience as adults (children would not be as culturally-conditioned). So far, I think the research would show that the presence of aliens or Amazon tribes would be very unusual in NDE reporting. I haven't studied NDEs enough to know if the religious experience is correlated to the actual religious background of the patient or not. There are several stories of NDEs where the person experienced being condemned to hell and upon recovering made a radical change in their moral life.Silver Asiatic
December 10, 2019
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SA, I agree that it is testimonial evidence, but what if that “testimony” was that he/she was in the presence of aliens? Or an Amazon tribe? Before I ascribed something as the best explanation, I would want to know what the person’s fundamental “beliefs” were. I would take it more seriously if a devout Christian said that they saw Mohaamed, or if a Jew saw Jesus.Reapers Plague
December 10, 2019
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Axel,
PS: I’m not saying that it is more miraculous than the Holy Shroud, but the miracles seem more numerous, and more numerous, certainly on the regular, human level.
Agreed. That's a great article about the investigations!Silver Asiatic
December 10, 2019
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If, during a period where life functions have ceased, a person awakens to life and states that he or she believes he experienced an afterlife with the soul - then that is testimonial evidence. If science cannot provide contrary evidence that the person was "actually dreaming or hallucinating" and not experiencing an afterlife, then the testimonial evidence cannot be refuted. The idea that the person actually experienced an afterlife would be the most reasonable explanation.Silver Asiatic
December 10, 2019
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@ your #40, Peter Kimbridge 'You realize that someone saying something was “unexplainable” carries zero credibility when used to substantiate the claim that souls or an afterlife is real. This event would need to be thoroughly investigated. Was it? Who did the investigating? Where is their report?' You and many other atheist sceptics seem to labour under the curious misapprehension that it falls to your Christian interlocutors to convince you, according to your own, pedantically myopic criteria. You see, as it stands, it sounds very much as if it's your loss, not your wife's or that of the medical peole involved. Personally, I would consider someone who was impervious to the credibility of the body language, indeed the whole context of these exeperiences - some of course can be seen as fraudulent by a sensible Christian, not 'hung up' on the most rigid, sectarian dogmas - to be half-wits, mostly academically-educated, for sure.Axel
December 10, 2019
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Hey, folks, I've just come acros this article, which, unless you've read it or something as informative on the subject, will blow your mind ! I mean I remember many years ago, reading about the reflection of Juan Diego in the eyes of Our Lady in the miraculous image of Oiur Lady of Guadalupe on the Mexican robe, called a 'tilma', but it has since been submitted to innumerable further scientific tests and has revealed a positive cornucopia of further miraculous features. If our God does this kind of thing on our earth, taking a seriously ill or clinically dead patient to heaven or its ante-room (believed by the RC church to be the Paradise the Good thief would have gone to initially, and the closest part of the purgatory spectrum to heaven), and then restoring their spirit to their lifeless body would hardly have presented a problem to Him. Anyway, here's the website : https://abyssum.org/2013/08/25/the-image-of-our-lady-of-guadalupe-poses-such-a-threat-to-atheists-that-they-will-go-to-extraordinary-lengths-to-discredit-it/ Atheists' comments, after reading it, would be welcome. PS: I'm not saying that it is more miraculous than the Holy Shroud, but the miracles seem more numerous, and more numerous, certainly on the regular, human level.Axel
December 10, 2019
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@GCS #15 " For the record – My wife is an RN and had an experience with a patient which was totally unexplainable in view of his being in cardiac arrest at the time." You realize that someone saying something was "unexplainable" carries zero credibility when used to substantiate the claim that souls or an afterlife is real. This event would need to be thoroughly investigated. Was it? Who did the investigating? Where is their report?Pater Kimbridge
December 10, 2019
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Thanks Silver Asiatic, you put the irresolvable dilemma for atheists much better than I did. I think I will save your comment for future reference.bornagain77
December 10, 2019
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BA77
My question to atheists is this, if you truly believe some mad genius forger in the middle ages made this image, then please prey tell why did this mad genius save all his genius for this supposed forgery alone and not for, say, inventing photography itself since he surely would have required mastery of photography to pull off the forgery? Not to mention mastery of laser holography? Moreover, why did this hypothetical mad super-genius destroy all of his scientific instruments that he would have had to invent in order to make the image? Leonardo da Vinci would not have been worthy to tie the shoe laces of such a hypothetical mad genius!
These are big questions to deal with. I've never seen any of the shroud-skeptics address this. We see claims that "the shroud is a forgery" and then the discussion ends with that. It seems obvious to me that the skeptics are afraid to go any further and are just relieved that they "silenced" the shroud. But wait - yes, who was this forger? We have 3-D, photographic image of amazing subtlety and refinement. Yes, it's something that transcends the genius of Leonardo DaVinci. We continue to use 21st century technology just to try to reproduce it. But nobody knows the name or origin of this artistic genius? There is no evidence of a workshop or artistic guild where this innovative creation was designed? Nobody from history ever mentioned this person? This genius-artist only produced this one masterpiece work - a holographic image on a cloth (containing pollen traceable to Jerusalem)? It was not framed or put on display. Not sold to anyone. The artist got nothing from creating it. Even the name of the genius artist disappeared. He never influenced any other artists. No family, friends, artistic community - not even the parish church - ever knew or said who he was? Amazingly, we only discovered the true power of the image when we took a photo negative of it in the 20th century. Yes, where are the medieval instruments used to create it? Everything was just accidentally lost?Silver Asiatic
December 10, 2019
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If ET gets banned then Eddie and Reaper have to go. They are both pathological liars with no intent on carrying out a discussion in good faith. They quote-mine, equivocate, attack and bluff. That is the extent of their ability If I go and they allow Eddie or Reaper to stay it will be a blight on UDET
December 10, 2019
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timothy Horton/ adapa/ the most vile anti-IDer out there:
If they don’t care about the integrity of the site, they are free to allow whatever behavior they like.
You're here. Eddie is here. So clearly they either want you two exposed as the liars and losers that you are or they don't care that you are trying to drag the site down. YOU two are the most insulting people there could be. So it's funny watching you go all hypocrite on me. Nice own goal And it's very telling that you cannot respond to the beatdown on your stupidityET
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