Intelligent Design Mind

We’ve talked about near-death experiences. What about visions of hell?

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Oddly, even distressing near-death experiences have had positive effects, say researchers:

One researcher observes at Psychology Today that the strongest predictor of a successful suicide attempt is a previous failed suicide attempt—unless the person has had a near-death experience, in which case further suicide attempts are unlikely.

News, “What if a near-death experience is a vision of hell?” at Mind Matters News

Remember when all this was supposed to be easily explained away?

Further reading: Do near-death experiences defy science? NDEs do not defy science. They sometimes challenge human senses, which are based on our biology. For example, if the human eye’s usual limitations were not a factor, previously unknown colors—which we KNOW from science to exist—might be perceived.

and

Why medical scientists take near-death experiences seriously now Today, we know much more about what happens to people when they die—and what we are learning does not support materialism. Near-death experiences are generally seen as real, even among hardcore skeptics and research focuses on how to account for them.

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65 Replies to “We’ve talked about near-death experiences. What about visions of hell?

  1. 1
    doubter says:

    Do near-death experiences defy science? NDEs do not defy science.

    Unfortunately, NDEs do in fact contradict science as it is still defined by materialist orthodoxy. The vast majority of the scientists who actually work in the field most related to NDEs, neuroscience, obstinately reject these experiences (and any supposed veridicality of elements of the accounts) as possibly being anything but some form of hallucination. To the typical materialist neuroscientist and to the typical nonscientist materialist who has bought into this paradigm of our modern society, the entire body of neuroscientific knowledge built up by research over many decades on the brain and its intimate relation to the mind seems to imply that mind = brain.

    Of course this is really a massive category error, mistaking correlation for causation, but the roots of the physicalist paradigm run very deep.

  2. 2
    Silver Asiatic says:

    A vision of hell contradicts the idea that NDE’s are just a kind of wish fulfillment.

  3. 3
    Axel says:

    Also, there have been NDEs in which mind/rain dualism was irrefutable.

    As regards empirical evidence, I would find the emotional body language of the most compelling NDErs far more persusaive than direct empirical evidence – plus the number of physicians, including a long-time lecturer in neuroscience at Harvard Medical Shool, I believe.

    Moreover the litany of half-baked ‘alternative explanations, all discovered to be rubbish, bespeaks a level of desperation that is not at all congruent with the minimal level of intelligence requuired to even discuss the matter – indeed, the die-hard Darwinist types. You know the type…. ‘Wow! Isn’t evolution full of surprises ! We hadn’t considered that….’

    PS : A great point, Silver !

  4. 4
    Pater Kimbridge says:

    @ Silver Asiatic # 2

    Did you read the article? Nobody had a “vision of hell”

    They made vague references to NDE’s where the person experienced feelings of regret and remorse and called that “hellish”

    Another grand leap of inference from the masters of self-delusion.

  5. 5
    bornagain77 says:

    As to scientific evidence for the validity Near Death Experiences:

    In regards to life after death, the scientific evidence for life after death is far, far, more robust than the scientific evidence for Darwinian evolution is. As Dr. Egnor explains, “The most “parsimonious” explanation — the simplest scientific explanation — is that the (Near Death) experience was real. Tens of millions of people have had such experiences. That is tens of millions of more times than we have observed the origin of species , (or the origin of life, or the origin of a protein/gene, or the origin of a molecular machine), which is never.,,, The materialist reaction, in short, is unscientific and close-minded. NDE’s show fellows like Coyne at their sneering unscientific irrational worst. Somebody finds a crushed fragment of a fossil and it’s earth-shaking evidence. Tens of million of people have life-changing spiritual experiences and it’s all a big yawn.”

    Near-Death Experiences: Putting a Darwinist’s Evidentiary Standards to the Test – Dr. Michael Egnor – October 15, 2012
    Excerpt: Indeed, about 20 percent of NDE’s are corroborated, which means that there are independent ways of checking about the veracity of the experience. The patients knew of things that they could not have known except by extraordinary perception — such as describing details of surgery that they watched while their heart was stopped, etc. Additionally, many NDE’s have a vividness and a sense of intense reality that one does not generally encounter in dreams or hallucinations.,,,
    The most “parsimonious” explanation — the simplest scientific explanation — is that the (Near Death) experience was real. Tens of millions of people have had such experiences. That is tens of millions of more times than we have observed the origin of species , (or the origin of life, or the origin of a protein/gene, or of a molecular machine), which is never.,,,
    The materialist reaction, in short, is unscientific and close-minded. NDE’s show fellows like Coyne at their sneering unscientific irrational worst. Somebody finds a crushed fragment of a fossil and it’s earth-shaking evidence. Tens of million of people have life-changing spiritual experiences and it’s all a big yawn.
    Note: Dr. Egnor is professor and vice-chairman of neurosurgery at the State University of New York at Stony Brook.
    http://www.evolutionnews.org/2.....65301.html

    As to the physical reality of the eternal soul itself, the physical reality of the eternal soul is strongly supported by advances in quantum biology.

    Darwinian Materialism vs. Quantum Biology – Part II – video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSig2CsjKbg

    The implication of finding ‘non-local’, beyond space and time, and ‘conserved’, quantum information in molecular biology on such a massive scale, in every important biomolecule in our bodies, is fairly, and pleasantly, obvious.
    That pleasant implication, of course, being the fact that we now have very strong empirical evidence suggesting that we do indeed have an eternal soul that is capable of living beyond the death of our material bodies. As Stuart Hameroff states in the following article, the quantum information,,, isn’t destroyed. It can’t be destroyed.,,, it’s possible that this quantum information can exist outside the body. Perhaps indefinitely as a soul.”

    Leading Scientists Say Consciousness Cannot Die It Goes Back To The Universe – Oct. 19, 2017 – Spiritual
    Excerpt: “Let’s say the heart stops beating. The blood stops flowing. The microtubules lose their quantum state. But the quantum information, which is in the microtubules, isn’t destroyed. It can’t be destroyed. It just distributes and dissipates to the universe at large. If a patient is resuscitated, revived, this quantum information can go back into the microtubules and the patient says, “I had a near death experience. I saw a white light. I saw a tunnel. I saw my dead relatives.,,” Now if they’re not revived and the patient dies, then it’s possible that this quantum information can exist outside the body. Perhaps indefinitely as a soul.”
    – Stuart Hameroff – Quantum Entangled Consciousness – Life After Death – video (5:00 minute mark)
    https://www.disclose.tv/leading-scientists-say-consciousness-cannot-die-it-goes-back-to-the-universe-315604

    As to the physics behind Near Death Experiences: Whereas, as is shown in the following video, atheists also have no compelling scientific evidence for all the various parallel universe and/or multiverse scenarios that they have put forth,,,

    Multiverse Mania vs Reality – video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQJV4fH6kMo

    ,,, whereas atheists have no evidence, Christian Theists, on the other hand, (as is shown in the following video), can appeal directly to the higher dimensional mathematics behind Quantum Mechanics, Special Relativity and General Relativity, (our most empirically verified theories in science by far), to support their belief that God upholds this universe in its continual existence, as well as to support their belief in a heavenly dimension and in a hellish dimension.

    Quantum Mechanics, Special Relativity, General Relativity and Christianity – video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4QDy1Soolo

    As to hellish NDEs, while the hellish NDEs are fairly rare compared to heavenly NDEs in Judeo-Christian cultures,,,

    Distressing Near-Death Experiences:
    The estimated incidence of distressing NDEs (dNDEs) for western cultures has ranged from 1% to 15% of all NDEs (Bonenfant, 2001). The results of prospective studies in which the researchers interviewed everyone who experienced cardiac arrest in one or more hospitals during a period of at least several months are noteworthy. In the four prospective studies conducted between 1984 and 2001, involving a total of 130 NDErs, none reported distressing experiences. This finding seems to confirm that the experience is relatively rare in western cultures.
    http://www.iands.org/nde_index.....ssing.html

    while hellish NDEs are rare in Christian cultures,,, with rare exception, all foreign, i.e. non-Judeo-Christian, NDEs that I have looked at. (and I spent hours searching the web on this matter), are hellish in their characteristics.

    A Small Glimpse At The Preponderance Of Negative Near Death Experiences Being Found In Foreign, Non-Judeo-Christian, Cultures:

    Near-Death Experiences in Thailand:
    Excerpt: The Light seems to be absent in Thai NDEs. So is the profound positive affect found in so many Western NDEs. The most common affect in our collection is negative. Unlike the negative affect in so many Western NDEs (cf. Greyson & Bush, 1992), that found in Thai NDEs (in all but case #11) has two recognizable causes. The first is fear of `going’. The second is horror and fear of hell. It is worth noting that although half of our collection include seeing hell (cases 2,6,7,9,10) and being forced to witness horrific tortures, not one includes the NDEer having been subjected to these torments themselves. (Murphy 99)
    http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm

    Near Death Experience Thailand Asia – (personal testimony) video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8M5J3zWG5g

    A Comparative view of Tibetan and Western Near-Death Experiences by Lawrence Epstein University of Washington:
    Excerpt: Episode 5: The OBE systematically stresses the ‘das-log’s discomfiture, pain, disappointment, anger and disillusionment with others and with the moral worth of the world at large. The acquisition of a yid-lus and the ability to travel instantaneously are also found here.
    Episode 6: The ‘das-log, usually accompanied by a supernatural guide, tours bar-do, where he witnesses painful scenes and meets others known to him. They give him messages to take back.
    Episode 7: The ‘das-log witnesses trials in and tours hell. The crimes and punishments of others are explained to him. Tortured souls also ask him to take back messages to the living.
    —–

    Near-Death Experiences Among Survivors of the 1976 Tangshan Earthquake (Chinese)
    Excerpt: Our subjects reported NDE phemenological items not mentioned, or rarely mentioned in NDE’s reported from other countries: sensations of the world being exterminated or ceasing to exist, a sense of weightlessness, a feeling of being pulled or squeezed, ambivalence about death, a feeling of being a different person, or a different kind of person and unusual scents. The predominant phemenological features in our series were feeling estranged from the body as if it belonged to someone else, unusually vivid thoughts, loss of emotions, unusual bodily sensations, life seeming like a dream, a feeling of dying,,, These are not the same phemenological features most commonly found by researchers in other countries. Greyson (1983) reported the most common phemenological feature of American NDE’s to be a feeling of peace, joy, time stopping, experiencing an unearthly realm of existence, a feeling of cosmic unity, and a out of body experience.
    —-

    The Japanese find death a depressing experience – From an item by Peter Hadfield in the New Scientist (Nov. 30th 1991)
    Excerpt: A study in Japan shows that even in death the Japanese have an original way of looking at things. Instead of seeing ‘tunnels of light’ or having ‘out of body’ experiences, near-dead patients in Japanese hospitals tend to see rather less romantic images, according to researchers at Kyorin University. According to a report in the Mainichi newspaper, a group of doctors from Kyorin has spent the past year documenting the near-death experiences of 17 patients. They had all been resuscitated from comas caused by heart attacks, strokes, asthma or drug poisoning. All had shown minimal signs of life during the coma. Yoshia Hata, who led the team, said that eight of the 17 recalled ‘dreams’, many featuring rivers or ponds. Five of those patients had dreams which involved fear, pain and suffering. One 50-year-old asthmatic man said he had seen himself wade into a reservoir and do a handstand in the shallows. ‘Then I walked out of the water and took some deep breaths. In the dream, I was repeating this over and over.’ Another patient, a 73-year-old woman with cardiac arrest, saw a cloud filled with dead people. ‘It was a dark, gloomy day. I was chanting sutras. I believed they could be saved if they chanted sutras, so that is what I was telling them to do.’ Most of the group said they had never heard of Near-Death Experiences before.
    —-

    Researching Muslim NDEs, on the web at the NDERF home page, I find that there are only a handful of Muslim NDE experiences out of the thousands of NDE’s they have listed on their web site. There is only one really deep Muslim NDE in which there is a reference to “the Light”. Not surprisingly, this NDE occurred to a teenage boy. In the handful of somewhat deep adult Muslim NDEs that I have read about, the Muslim NDES never mentioned “the Light”, “Supreme Being” or a “Being of Light”. If this holds steady for all adult Muslim NDEs, then this will fall into stark contrast to the majority of deep Judeo/Christian NDE testimonies of adults for the western world.

    Also of note, I could not find where any particular branch of Christianity had an advantage over any other branch in terms of being more likely to having a heavenly NDE. The overriding factor that determined if you would have a heavenly NDE or not is if you are in a Judeo-Christian culture or not.

    Of supplemental note to hellish NDEs in Judeo-Christian cultures:

    Imagine Heaven – What About Hell? – John Burke – video (33:00 minute mark)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NWosBNDtgw

    Verse:

    Matthew 5
    29 If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to depart into hell.…

  6. 6
    Ed George says:

    So, NDE’s can be pleasant or unpleasant. Just like dreams.

  7. 7
    bornagain77 says:

    Ed George states,

    So, NDE’s can be pleasant or unpleasant. Just like dreams.

    In regards to the claim from Darwinian atheists that NDEs are just ‘dreams’, in the following study, materialistic researchers who had a bias against Near Death Experiences being real, set out to prove that they were ‘false memories’ by setting up a clever questionnaire that could differentiate which memories a person had were real and which memories a person had were merely imaginary.
    Simply put, they did not expect the results they got: to quote the headline ‘Afterlife’ feels ‘even more real than real”

    ‘Afterlife’ feels ‘even more real than real,’ researcher says – Wed April 10, 2013
    Excerpt: “If you use this questionnaire … if the memory is real, it’s richer, and if the memory is recent, it’s richer,” he said.
    The coma scientists weren’t expecting what the tests revealed.
    “To our surprise, NDEs were much richer than any imagined event or any real event of these coma survivors,” Laureys reported.
    The memories of these experiences beat all other memories, hands down, for their vivid sense of reality. “The difference was so vast,” he said with a sense of astonishment.
    Even if the patient had the experience a long time ago, its memory was as rich “as though it was yesterday,” Laureys said.
    http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/09/.....periences/

    Memories of Near Death Experiences (NDEs): More Real Than Reality? – Mar. 27, 2013
    Excerpt: University of Liège
    ,,,researchers,, have looked into the memories of NDE with the hypothesis that if the memories of NDE were pure products of the imagination, their phenomenological characteristics (e.g., sensorial, self referential, emotional, etc. details) should be closer to those of imagined memories. Conversely, if the NDE are experienced in a way similar to that of reality, their characteristics would be closer to the memories of real events.
    The researchers compared the responses provided by three groups of patients, each of which had survived (in a different manner) a coma, and a group of healthy volunteers. They studied the memories of NDE and the memories of real events and imagined events with the help of a questionnaire which evaluated the phenomenological characteristics of the memories. The results were surprising. From the perspective being studied, not only were the NDEs not similar to the memories of imagined events, but the phenomenological characteristics inherent to the memories of real events (e.g. memories of sensorial details) are even more numerous in the memories of NDE than in the memories of real events.
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/re.....190359.htm

    Here are a few quotes on the ‘more real than real’ attribute of Near Death Experiences:

    A Doctor’s Near Death Experience Inspires a New Life – video
    Quote: “It’s not like a dream. It’s like the world we are living in is a dream and it’s kind of like waking up from that.”
    Dr. Magrisso
    http://www.nbcchicago.com/on-a.....31791.html

    “More real than anything I’ve experienced since. When I came back of course I had 34 operations, and was in the hospital for 13 months. That was real but heaven is more real than that. The emotions and the feelings. The reality of being with people who had preceded me in death.”
    – Don Piper – “90 Minutes in Heaven,” 10 Years Later – video (2:54 minute mark)
    https://youtu.be/3LyZoNlKnMM?t=173

    “I was in the spiritual dimension. And this spiritual dimension, this spiritual world, that’s the real world. And this spiritual man that I was seeing and perceiving, that was the real me. And I instantly knew it. The colors are brighter. The thoughts are more intense. The feelings have greater depth. They’re more real. In the spirit world instantly I knew that this is the real world.,,,”
    – The Near Death Experience of Mickey Robinson – video (testimony starts at 27:45 minute mark)
    https://youtu.be/voak1RM-pXo?t=1655

    Medical Miracles – Dr. Mary Neal’s Near Death Experience – video (More real than real quote at 37:49 minute mark)
    https://youtu.be/WCNjmWP2JjU?t=2269

    Dr. Eben Alexander Says It’s Time for Brain Science to Graduate From Kindergarten – 10/24/2013
    Excerpt: To take the approach of, “Oh it had to be a hallucination of the brain” is just crazy. The simplistic idea that NDEs (Near Death Experiences) are a trick of a dying brain is similar to taking a piece of cardboard out of a pizza delivery box, rolling it down a hill and then claiming that it’s an identical event as rolling a beautiful Ferrari down a hill. They are not the same at all. The problem is the pure materialist scientists can be so closed-minded about it.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....51093.html

    Whereas on a Theistic view of reality, in which the Mind of God is held to be the source for all reality, this ‘more real than real’ aspect of NDEs is to be expected. But, on the other hand, in the Atheist’s materialistic view of reality, how is it even possible for something to become ‘even more real that real’? Atheists, in forsaking the necessity of ‘mind’ to be the foundation for any coherent definition of reality that we may put forth,,,

    “No, I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.”
    Max Planck (1858–1947), the main founder of quantum theory, The Observer, London, January 25, 1931

    “Consciousness cannot be accounted for in physical terms. For consciousness is absolutely fundamental. It cannot be accounted for in terms of anything else.”
    Schroedinger, Erwin. 1984. “General Scientific and Popular Papers,” in Collected Papers, Vol. 4. Vienna: Austrian Academy of Sciences. Friedr. Vieweg & Sohn, Braunschweig/Wiesbaden. p. 334.

    “The principal argument against materialism is not that illustrated in the last two sections: that it is incompatible with quantum theory. The principal argument is that thought processes and consciousness are the primary concepts, that our knowledge of the external world is the content of our consciousness and that the consciousness, therefore, cannot be denied. On the contrary, logically, the external world could be denied—though it is not very practical to do so. In the words of Niels Bohr, “The word consciousness, applied to ourselves as well as to others, is indispensable when dealing with the human situation.” In view of all this, one may well wonder how materialism, the doctrine that “life could be explained by sophisticated combinations of physical and chemical laws,” could so long be accepted by the majority of scientists.”
    – Eugene Wigner, Remarks on the Mind-Body Question, pp 167-177.

    ,,,, in forsaking the necessity of ‘mind’ to be the foundation for any coherent definition of reality that we may put forth, Atheists simply have no coherent basis for reality that they can put forth that does not collapse into pure fantasy and imagination.

    As I have stated several times now,

    Basically, because of reductive materialism (and/or methodological naturalism), the atheistic materialist is forced to claim that he is merely a ‘neuronal illusion’ (Coyne, Dennett, etc..), who has the illusion of free will (Harris), who has unreliable, (i.e. illusory), beliefs about reality (Plantinga), who has illusory perceptions of reality (Hoffman), who, since he has no real time empirical evidence substantiating his grandiose claims, must make up illusory “just so stories” with the illusory, and impotent, ‘designer substitute’ of natural selection (Behe, Gould, Sternberg), so as to ‘explain away’ the appearance (i.e. illusion) of design (Crick, Dawkins), and who must make up illusory meanings and purposes for his life since the reality of the nihilism inherent in his atheistic worldview is too much for him to bear (Weikart), and who must also hold morality to be subjective and illusory since he has rejected God (Craig, Kreeft). Who, since beauty cannot be grounded within his materialistic worldview, must hold beauty itself to be illusory.
    Bottom line, nothing is truly real in the atheist’s worldview, least of all, beauty, morality, meaning and purposes for life.,,,
    – Darwinian Materialism and/or Methodological Naturalism vs. Reality – video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaksmYceRXM

  8. 8
    bornagain77 says:

    Thus it is not surprising that atheists would claim, in spite of all evidence to the contrary, that NDEs are just ‘dreams’. EVERYTHING, including the atheist himself, is ultimately illusory and imaginary in his materialistic worldview. In fact, the only thing that is to be considered ‘real’ in the atheists’ worldview is “the material constituents postulated by our most fundamental physical theories.”

    What Does It Mean to Say That Science & Religion Conflict? – M. Anthony Mills – April 16, 2018
    Excerpt: Barr rightly observes that scientific atheists often unwittingly assume not just metaphysical naturalism but an even more controversial philosophical position: reductive materialism, which says all that exists is or is reducible to the material constituents postulated by our most fundamental physical theories.
    As Barr points out, this implies not only that God does not exist — because God is not material — but that you do not exist. For you are not a material constituent postulated by any of our most fundamental physical theories; at best, you are an aggregate of those constituents, arranged in a particular way. Not just you, but tables, chairs, countries, countrymen, symphonies, jokes, legal contracts, moral judgments, and acts of courage or cowardice — all of these must be fully explicable in terms of those more fundamental, material constituents.
    In fact, more problematic for the materialist than the non-existence of persons is the existence of mathematics. Why? Although a committed materialist might be perfectly willing to accept that you do not really exist, he will have a harder time accepting that numbers do not exist. The trouble is that numbers — along with other mathematical entities such as classes, sets, and functions — are indispensable for modern science. And yet — here’s the rub — these “abstract objects” are not material. Thus, one cannot take science as the only sure guide to reality and at the same time discount disbelief in all immaterial realities.
    https://www.realclearreligion.org/articles/2018/04/16/what_does_it_mean_to_say_that_science_and_religion_conflict.html

    Yet, in irony of ironies, not even the material particles themselves turn out to be solid, and concrete, and therefore ‘real’ on the materialistic definition of what is supposed to be ‘real’, but the supposedly solid and concrete material particles themselves turn out instead to be made of “abstract” immaterial information that represent, as Werner Heinsenberg himself stated, “our knowledge of this behavior”

    “The conception of objective reality of the elementary particles has thus evaporated not into the cloud of some obscure new reality concept but into the transparent clarity of a mathematics that represents no longer the behavior of particles but rather our knowledge of this behavior”
    – Werner Heinsenberg – The Representation of Nature in Contemporary Physics – pg. 100

    And as John Wheeler himself stated, “in short all matter and all things physical are information-theoretic in origin and this is a participatory universe.”

    “it from bit” Every “it”— every particle, every field of force, even the space-time continuum itself derives its function, its meaning, its very existence entirely—even if in some contexts indirectly—from the apparatus-elicited answers to yes-or-no questions, binary choices, bits. “It from bit” symbolizes the idea that every item of the physical world has a bottom—a very deep bottom, in most instances, an immaterial source and explanation, that which we call reality arises in the last analysis from the posing of yes-no questions and the registering of equipment—evoked responses, in short all matter and all things physical are information-theoretic in origin and this is a participatory universe.”
    – Princeton University physicist John Wheeler (1911–2008) (Wheeler, John A. (1990), “Information, physics, quantum: The search for links”, in W. Zurek, Complexity, Entropy, and the Physics of Information (Redwood City, California: Addison-Wesley))

    That is to say, according to quantum theory, the most fundamental ‘stuff’ of the world is not even the ‘stuff’ of matter or energy at all, (as Atheistic materialists had originally presupposed), but it turns out the most fundamental stuff of the universe is ‘abstract’ immaterial information itself (and even our relation as to how we ‘participate’ with this immaterial information). As Professor Vedral of Oxford stated, “The most fundamental definition of reality is not matter or energy, but information”,,,

    “The most fundamental definition of reality is not matter or energy, but information–and it is the processing of information that lies at the root of all physical, biological, economic, and social phenomena.”
    Vlatko Vedral – Professor of Physics at the University of Oxford, and CQT (Centre for Quantum Technologies) at the National University of Singapore, and a Fellow of Wolfson College .

    And as leading experimentalist Anton Zeilinger states in the following video, “It is operationally impossible to separate Reality and Information”,,, And Dr. Zeilinger even goes on to note the Theological significance of finding immaterial information to be the most fundamental definition of reality. Specifically, he cites John 1:1 which states “In the beginning was the Word”

    “It is operationally impossible to separate Reality and Information”
    (48:35 minute mark)
    “In the beginning was the Word”
    John 1:1 (49:54 minute mark)
    Prof Anton Zeilinger speaks on quantum physics. at UCT
    https://youtu.be/s3ZPWW5NOrw?t=2984

    Or to put the implications from these recent advances in quantum mechanics much more simply, as Physics professor Richard Conn Henry put it at the end of the following article, “The Universe is immaterial — mental and spiritual. Live, and enjoy.”

    The mental Universe – Richard Conn Henry
    The only reality is mind and observations, but observations are not of things. To see the Universe as it really is, we must abandon our tendency to conceptualize observations as things.
    Excerpt: “The Universe is immaterial — mental and spiritual. Live, and enjoy.”
    – Richard Conn Henry is a Professor in the Henry A. Rowland Department of Physics and Astronomy, The Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, Maryland
    http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/The.mental.universe.pdf

    Thus far from consciousness and our sense of self being illusory, as Darwinian materialists are forced to believe because of their unwarranted presupposition of reductive materialism and/or methodological naturalism, it turns out that the material particles themselves are what is in fact found to be abstract and illusory.
    As Physics professor Richard Conn Henry further stated in response to the experimental falsification of ‘realism’ by Leggett’s inequality, “if mind is not a product of real matter, but rather is the creator of the “illusion” of material reality (which has, in fact, despite the materialists, been known to be the case, since the discovery of quantum mechanics in 1925), then a theistic view of our existence becomes the only rational alternative to solipsism”,,,

    Alain Aspect and Anton Zeilinger by Richard Conn Henry – Physics Professor – John Hopkins University
    Excerpt: Why do people cling with such ferocity to belief in a mind-independent reality? It is surely because if there is no such reality, then ultimately (as far as we can know) mind alone exists. And if mind is not a product of real matter, but rather is the creator of the “illusion” of material reality (which has, in fact, despite the materialists, been known to be the case, since the discovery of quantum mechanics in 1925), then a theistic view of our existence becomes the only rational alternative to solipsism (solipsism is the philosophical idea that only one’s own mind is sure to exist). (Dr. Henry’s referenced experiment and paper – “An experimental test of non-local realism” by S. Gröblacher et. al., Nature 446, 871, April 2007 – “To be or not to be local” by Alain Aspect, Nature 446, 866, April 2007 (Leggett’s Inequality: Violated, as of 2011, to 120 standard deviations)
    http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/aspect.html

    Thus, although the Darwinist may firmly believe that he is on the terra firma of science (in his appeal, even demand, for reductive materialism and/or methodological naturalism), the fact of the matter is that, when examining the details of his materialistic/naturalistic worldview, it is found that Darwinian Atheists are adrift in an ocean of fantasy and imagination with no discernible anchor for reality to grab on to. Even the material particles themselves turn out to be illusory.

    It would be hard to fathom a worldview more antagonistic to modern science, indeed more antagonistic to reality itself, than Atheistic materialism and/or methodological naturalism have turned out to be.

    2 Corinthians 10:5
    Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

    Not that atheists have ever listened to any of my suggestions before, but if atheists were ever inclined to listen to any of my suggestions, might I suggest that Atheists base their lives on the solid foundation of Christianity instead of on the foundation of sand that Atheistic Materialism has turned out to be?

    Matthew 7:24-27
    24 “Anyone who listens to my teaching and follows it is wise, like a person who builds a house on solid rock. 25 Though the rain comes in torrents and the floodwaters rise and the winds beat against that house, it won’t collapse because it is built on bedrock. 26 But anyone who hears my teaching and doesn’t obey it is foolish, like a person who builds a house on sand. 27 When the rains and floods come and the winds beat against that house, it will collapse with a mighty crash.”

  9. 9
    Silver Asiatic says:

    Pater Kimbridge @ 4

    Did you read the article? Nobody had a “vision of hell”

    I don’t think that article exhausts everything that has been experienced in NDEs.

    I just googled Vision of Hell NDE

  10. 10
    doubter says:

    BA77@5:

    The implication of finding ‘non-local’, beyond space and time, and ‘conserved’, quantum information in molecular biology on such a massive scale, in every important biomolecule in our bodies, is fairly, and pleasantly, obvious.
    That pleasant implication, of course, being the fact that we now have very strong empirical evidence suggesting that we do indeed have an eternal soul that is capable of living beyond the death of our material bodies. As Stuart Hameroff states in the following article, the quantum information,,, isn’t destroyed. It can’t be destroyed.,,, it’s possible that this quantum information can exist outside the body. Perhaps indefinitely as a soul.”

    It seems to me that Hameroff and Penrose with their quantum mechanical neural microtubules theory still run afoul of Chalmers’ good old “Hard Problem” of consciousness, which invalidates all physicalist theories of consciousness. Ultimately, like most neuroscientists they still view consciousness as the workings of some sort of neurological mechanisms. The supposed quantum mechanical information in the microtubules is still inherently physical.

    Neither this theory or any other mechanistic neurological theory can evade Chalmers’ famous Hard Problem of consciousness, where the properties of conscious awareness are realized to be in an entirely different existential realm than the properties of matter, energy and space. Some examples with conscious awareness:

    – qualities of subjective awareness – qualia, i.e. blueness, redness, loudness, softness
    – subjectivity: what it is like to be a person, a conscious agent
    – intentionality – the quality of directing toward achieving an object
    – aboutness: being about something
    – this object of aboutness may be totally immaterial as in abstract thought, i.e. a thought about the number pi

    What are the properties of all proposed theoretical biological/neurological mechanisms for consciousness? These are the ultimately physically measurable physics parameters involved in neuronal interactions through synaptic junctions or “quantum entanglement” or whatever. Measured classical parameters include forces, field strengths, masses, charges, velocities, etc.

    All of this amounts to “things” of some sort, not thoughts.

    The properties of mental phenomena such as the examples given can’t be derived from the properties of the ultimately physical phenomena utilized by Hameroff’s theories. They are in entirely different existential categories.

    So this seems to leave consciousness as some sort of epiphenomenal illusion as imagined by the hard-line materialists, where what it is that is experiencing this illusion is undefined. But consciousness can’t be a powerless epiphenomenon because consciousness has causative power in the world. And to try to propose something called “emergence” is just to evoke another mysterious miracle.

    Aside from all this related to the Hard Problem, a large body of paranormal empirical evidence has been accumulated that clearly indicates that human consciousness is ultimately independent of the physical brain. This is especially in the area of NDEs including many cases of very clear consciousness NDEs occurring while the physical brain is not functioning or only to a small degree, as in cardiac arrest. And of course there are hundreds of veridical NDEs where the experiencer came back with numerous verified pieces of information simply not physically available to the unconscious bed-ridden NDEer. Other areas are the several thousand investigated and verified reincarnation cases including a number involving correlated birthmarks/birth defects, and investigated and verified mediumistic communications.

    The soul exists, but its nature still totally eludes scientific understanding. The core mystery remains, and may simply not be scientifically understandable by humans any more than a monkey can understand differential equations.

    Certainly a physical brain is necessary for consciousness to manifest in the physical world. The best metaphor or simile would be the TV set analogy. The TV set interfaces between the immaterial electromagnetic waves carrying the picture information, and the physical display. The TV is essential for the manifestation of the TV show in the physical world, and disruption of its various component parts will distort or destroy that displayed picture, but the TV set does not actually generate the displayed program. Any more than the brain microtubules or whatever generate consciousness.

  11. 11
    bornagain77 says:

    Well Doubter, I did not say mind did I? I said soul did I not.

    we now have very strong empirical evidence suggesting that we do indeed have an eternal soul that is capable of living beyond the death of our material bodies.

    The typical rejoinder, as you yourself pointed out, to the ‘hard problem of consciousness’ that you highlighted, and to the problem of how the mind and brain can possibly interact, is that the brain is held to be somewhat of a ‘receiver of consciousness’ instead of being a generator of consciousness.

    To quote Pim van Lommel who has done extensive research on NDEs

    A Reply to Shermer – Medical Evidence for NDEs – Pim van Lommel
    Excerpt: In trying to understand this concept of mutual interaction between the ‘invisible and not measurable’ consciousness, with its enormous amount of information, and our visible, material body it seems wise to compare it with modern worldwide communication.

    There is a continuous exchange of objective information by means of electromagnetic fields (real photons) for radio, TV, mobile telephone, or laptop computer. We are unaware of the innumerable amounts of electromagnetic fields that constantly, day and night, exist around us and through us as well as through structures like walls and buildings. We only become aware of these electromagnetic informational fields the moment we use our mobile telephone or by switching on our radio, TV or laptop. What we receive is not inside the instrument, nor in the components, but thanks to the receiver the information from the electromagnetic fields becomes observable to our senses and hence perception occurs in our consciousness. The voice we hear in our telephone is not inside the telephone. The concert we hear in our radio is transmitted to our radio. The images and music we hear and see on TV is transmitted to our TV set. The internet is not located inside our laptop. We can receive at about the same time what is transmitted with the speed of light from a distance of some hundreds or thousands of miles. And if we switch off the TV set, the reception disappears, but the transmission continues. The information transmitted remains present within the electromagnetic fields. The connection has been interrupted, but it has not vanished and can still be received elsewhere by using another TV set. Again, we do not realize us the thousands of telephone calls, the hundreds of radio and TV transmissions, as well as the internet, coded as electromagnetic fields, that exist around us and through us.

    Could our brain be compared with the TV set that electromagnetic waves (photons) receives and transforms into image and sound, as well as with the TV camera that image and sound transforms into electromagnetic waves (photons)? This electromagnetic radiation holds the essence of all information, but is only conceivable to our senses by suited instruments like camera and TV set.

    The informational fields of our consciousness and of our memories, both evaluating by our experiences and by the informational imput from our sense organs during our lifetime, are present around us as electrical and/or magnetic fields [possible virtual photons? (18)], and these fields only become available to our waking consciousness through our functioning brain and other cells of our body.

    So we need a functioning brain to receive our consciousness into our waking consciousness. And as soon as the function of brain has been lost, like in clinical death or in brain death, with iso-electricity on the EEG, memories and consciousness do still exist, but the reception ability is lost. People can experience their consciousness outside their body, with the possibility of perception out and above their body, with identity, and with heightened awareness, attention, well-structured thought processes, memories and emotions. And they also can experience their consciousness in a dimension where past, present and future exist at the same moment, without time and space, and can be experienced as soon as attention has been directed to it (life review and preview), and even sometimes they come in contact with the ‘fields of consciousness’ of deceased relatives. And later they can experience their conscious return into their body.

    Michael Shermer states that, in reality, all experience is mediated and produced by the brain, and that so-called paranormal phenomena like out-of body experiences are nothing more than neuronal events. The study of patients with NDE, however, clearly shows us that consciousness with memories, cognition, with emotion, self-identity, and perception out and above a life-less body is experienced during a period of a non-functioning brain (transient pancerebral anoxia). And focal functional loss by inhibition of local cortical regions happens by ‘stimulation’ of those regions with electricity (photons) or with magnetic fields (photons), resulting sometimes in out-of-body states.

    To quote Michael Shermer: it is the job of science to solve those puzzles with natural, rather than supernatural, explanations. But one has to be aware of the progress of science, and to study recent literature, to know what is going on in current science. For me science is asking questions with an open mind, and not being afraid to reconsider widely accepted but scientifically not proven concepts like the concept that consciousness and memories are a product of the brain. But also we should realize that we need a functioning brain to receive our consciousness into our waking consciousness. There are still a lot of mysteries to solve, but one has not to talk about paranormal, supernatural or pseudoscience to look for scientific answers on the intriguing relation between consciousness and memories with the brain.
    https://www.nderf.org/NDERF/Research/vonlommel_skeptic_response.htm

    Of related interest: At about the 16:30 minute mark of the following video, an interesting experiment on the sleeping brain is highlighted in which it is demonstrated that there is a fairly profound difference in the way the brain ‘shares information’ between different parts of the brain in its sleeping state compared to how the brain ‘shares information’ in its waking state. i.e. In the sleeping state, the brain shares much less information with different parts of the brain than the brain does during our waking state.

    Through The Wormhole s02e01 Is There Life After Death – video (16:30 minute mark)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XhrDrqmXE4

    Of note, the preceding video, after you sign up, can be watched in much better quality at this following site (season 2 episode 1)
    https://www.sciencechannel.com/tv-shows/through-the-wormhole/
    Researchers: Deep sleep short-circuits brain’s grid of connectivity – September 29, 2005
    Excerpt: Tononi and his team observed the disconnect when brief, magnetically generated pulses of electricity were directed to specific regions of the brain. The pulses stimulated an electrochemical response from the targeted cells, which, when the subject was awake, rippled across the brain, traveling along networks of nerve fibers to different cerebral destinations. But when the subject was in deep sleep, the same response was quickly extinguished and did not travel beyond the stimulated cells.
    When consciousness fades, according to Tononi, “the brain breaks down into little islands that can’t talk to one another.”
    https://news.wisc.edu/researchers-deep-sleep-short-circuits-brains-grid-of-connectivity/

    Also of related note:

    Study targets ‘fingerprint’ of human consciousness – OCTOBER 11, 2019
    Excerpt: “Remarkably, we saw very similar results in the two groups of participants scanned on opposite sides of the Atlantic. Specifically, loss of consciousness—whether due to propofol anaesthesia or brain injury—was accompanied by reduced functional diversity and integrative capacity in similar brain networks, which may represent a neurobiological marker or ‘brain fingerprint’ for consciousness,” Owen said.
    Put simply, functional diversity and integrative capacity are properties of the brain that reveal how much information is being exchanged and integrated between different brain regions.
    https://medicalxpress.com/news/2019-10-fingerprint-human-consciousness.html

    The interesting thing about these long range correlations in the brain, long range correlations that differentiate a sleeping brain from a brain that is awake, is that the long range correlations are found to be, for all intents and purposes, ‘instantaneous’

    The Puzzling Role Of Biophotons In The Brain – Dec. 17, 2010
    Excerpt: It’s certainly true that electrical activity in the brain is synchronised over distances that cannot be easily explained. Electrical signals travel too slowly to do this job, so something else must be at work.,,,
    ,,, It’s a big jump to assume that photons do this job.
    http://www.technologyreview.co.....the-brain/

    ,,, zero time lag neuronal synchrony despite long conduction delays – 2008
    Excerpt: Multielectrode recordings have revealed zero time lag synchronization among remote cerebral cortical areas. However, the axonal conduction delays among such distant regions can amount to several tens of milliseconds. It is still unclear which mechanism is giving rise to isochronous discharge of widely distributed neurons, despite such latencies,,,
    Remarkably, synchrony of neuronal activity is not limited to short-range interactions within a cortical patch. Interareal synchronization across cortical regions including interhemispheric areas has been observed in several tasks (7, 9, 11–14).,,,
    Beyond its functional relevance, the zero time lag synchrony among such distant neuronal ensembles must be established by mechanisms that are able to compensate for the delays involved in the neuronal communication.
    Latencies in conducting nerve impulses down axonal processes can amount to delays of several tens of milliseconds between the generation of a spike in a presynaptic cell and the elicitation of a postsynaptic potential (16). The question is how, despite such temporal delays, the reciprocal interactions between two brain regions can lead to the associated neural populations to fire in unison (i.e. zero time lag).,,,
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pm.....MC2575223/

    In other words, ‘non-local’, beyond space and time, quantum entanglement must be invoke to explain why we even wake up in the first place.

    Materialism simply has no beyond space and time cause to appeal to in order to explain ‘non-local’ entanglement. Whereas we Christian Theists, on the other hand, do have a beyond space and time cause to appeal to so as to explain these long range quantum correlations and thus explain how it is even possible for us to wake up:

    Isaiah 50:4
    The Sovereign LORD has given me a well-instructed tongue, to know the word that sustains the weary. He wakens me morning by morning, wakens my ear to listen like one being instructed.

    Thus Doubter, your claim that “The soul exists, but its nature still totally eludes scientific understanding” simply is not true. It would be more proper for you to state that ii totally eludes a materialistic understanding of science.

    But we are not beholden to, or encumbered by, the false philosophical doctrine of materialism are we Doubter?

  12. 12
    Seversky says:

    I have no problem accepting that patients reporting NDEs did experience what they claim. The problem is that they are near death experiences. They did not actually die since death, by definition, is a state from which you do not recover. Since they did not die they could not have experienced any afterlife, whether heavenly or hellish. This leaves some sort of dream-like state or hallucination as an explanation of the experiences.

  13. 13
    bornagain77 says:

    Seversky apparently thinks he can proclaim what is possible and not possible from his a-apriori materialistic presuppositions.

    Perhaps if Seversky could explain how life can possibly arise from purely materialistic processes he might have a case.

    He has no clue. Thus that renders his speculations moot.

  14. 14
    Reapers Plague says:

    If these are actual experiences while the person was dead then the resurrection of Jesus was not a miracle, just an event that happens every day. Almost mundane.

  15. 15
    GCS says:

    Severski (@ 12),

    You make an important point in that these are called near death experiences. Many of them document cardiac arrest. Lingering cellular life could be existing waiting for restoration of a heart beat.

    However, a surprising number have also been out of body experiences. People saw things that there was no way they could have known about unless their soul was wandering around. This documentation is possibly more damning to a materialist world view – these involved specific material things that were seen and occurred in the world. The only problem is – the person who reported it could not have know about it. He or she was dead/totally unconscious at the time.

    For the record – My wife is an RN and had an experience with a patient which was totally unexplainable in view of his being in cardiac arrest at the time.

    Thank You and God Bless

  16. 16
    bornagain77 says:

    Reapers Plague claims that.

    If these are actual experiences while the person was dead then the resurrection of Jesus was not a miracle, just an event that happens every day. Almost mundane.

    Jesus’s resurrection was anything but mundane. Jesus, in his resurrection from the dead, forever conquered death itself.

    Acts 2:24
    But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

    Everyone else who has been dead for a while and has come back to life, never-the-less. dies again. i.e. Their reprieve from death was temporary. Jesus, on the other hand, ascended to the right hand of God the Father in heaven and never died again.

    Acts 1:9-12
    9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

    Because He conquered death itself, that is exactly why Jesus has the power bestowed within Himself to grant eternal life to us:

    John 3:16
    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

    Just how out of the ordinary Jesus’s resurrection from the dead was is testified to by the Shroud of Turin:

    To give us a small glimpse of the power that was involved in Christ’s resurrection from the dead, the following recent article found that, ”it would take 34 Thousand Billion Watts of VUV radiations to make the image on the shroud. This output of electromagnetic energy remains beyond human technology.”

    Astonishing discovery at Christ’s tomb supports Turin Shroud – NOV 26TH 2016
    Excerpt: The first attempts made to reproduce the face on the Shroud by radiation, used a CO2 laser which produced an image on a linen fabric that is similar at a macroscopic level. However, microscopic analysis showed a coloring that is too deep and many charred linen threads, features that are incompatible with the Shroud image. Instead, the results of ENEA “show that a short and intense burst of VUV directional radiation can color a linen cloth so as to reproduce many of the peculiar characteristics of the body image on the Shroud of Turin, including shades of color, the surface color of the fibrils of the outer linen fabric, and the absence of fluorescence”.
    ‘However, Enea scientists warn, “it should be noted that the total power of VUV radiations required to instantly color the surface of linen that corresponds to a human of average height, body surface area equal to = 2000 MW/cm2 17000 cm2 = 34 thousand billion watts makes it impractical today to reproduce the entire Shroud image using a single laser excimer, since this power cannot be produced by any VUV light source built to date (the most powerful available on the market come to several billion watts )”.
    Comment
    The ENEA study of the Holy Shroud of Turin concluded that it would take 34 Thousand Billion Watts of VUV radiations to make the image on the shroud. This output of electromagnetic energy remains beyond human technology.
    http://westvirginianews.blogsp.....in-is.html

    Verse:

    Colossians 1:15-20
    The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

    And to remind, Jesus’s resurrection from the dead provides the correct solution for the much sought after ‘theory of everything’:

    ,,, allowing the Agent causality of God ‘back’ into physics, as the Christian founders of modern science originally envisioned,,,, (Isaac Newton, Michael Faraday, James Clerk Maxwell, and Max Planck, to name a few of the Christian founders),,, and as quantum mechanics itself now empirically demands (with the closing of the free will loophole by Anton Zeilinger and company), rightly allowing the Agent causality of God ‘back’ into physics provides us with a very plausible resolution for the much sought after ‘theory of everything’ in that Christ’s resurrection from the dead provides an empirically backed reconciliation, via the Shroud of Turin, between quantum mechanics and general relativity into the much sought after ‘Theory of Everything”. Here are a few posts where I lay out and defend some of the evidence for that claim:

    November 2019 – despite the fact that virtually everyone, including the vast majority of Christians, hold that the Copernican Principle is unquestionably true, the fact of the matter is that the Copernican Principal is now empirically shown, (via quantum mechanics and general relativity, etc..), to be a false assumption.
    https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/so-then-maybe-we-are-privileged-observers/#comment-688855

    To support Isabel Piczek’s claim that the Shroud of Turin does indeed reveal a true ‘event horizon’, the following study states that ‘The bottom part of the cloth (containing the dorsal image) would have born all the weight of the man’s supine body, yet the dorsal image is not encoded with a greater amount of intensity than the frontal image.’,,,
    Moreover, besides gravity being dealt with, the shroud also gives us evidence that Quantum Mechanics was dealt with. In the following paper, it was found that it was not possible to describe the image formation on the Shroud in classical terms but they found it necessary to describe the formation of the image on the Shroud in discrete quantum terms.
    https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/experiment-quantum-particles-can-violate-the-mathematical-pigeonhole-principle/#comment-673178
    https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/experiment-quantum-particles-can-violate-the-mathematical-pigeonhole-principle/#comment-673179

  17. 17
    Reapers Plague says:

    BA77

    Jesus’s resurrection was anything but mundane.

    If NDEs are occurring as frequently as some say they are then resurrection from the dead is commonplace. Not limited to Jesus.

    Jesus, in his resurrection from the dead, forever conquered death itself.

    For who? Certainly not for us. I’m pretty sure that both you and I are going to die. And as he is purported to be immortal, omniscient and omnipresent, it wasn’t possible for him to die.

  18. 18
    bornagain77 says:

    For unbiased readers: First of all note that Reapers Plague, although Near Death Experiences in and of themselves refute his atheistic worldview, none-the-less, grants the validity of NDEs just so as to be able to argue against the validity of Christianity. In doing so, he reveals his real motive. i.e. His animus is against Christianity. In short, Reapers Plague does not really care if atheistic materialism is true or not just so long as he can attack Christianity by any means possible.

    Anyways, irrational hostility aside,,,

    Reapers Plague claims, “If NDEs are occurring as frequently as some say they are then resurrection from the dead is commonplace. Not limited to Jesus.”

    Reapers Plague is purposely confusing Jesus’s victory over death itself with ‘merely’ a soul returning to its body. I provided evidence, via the Shroud of Turin, that Jesus’s death was anything but ordinary. Reapers Plague purposely ignored that evidence and just restated his fallacious talking point as if physical evidence was not presented. That is, to put it mildly, disingenuous of him and reveals that he is not really interested in sincerely seeking the truth.

    And then, in response to this,

    “Jesus, in his resurrection from the dead, forever conquered death itself.”

    RP claimed, “For who? Certainly not for us. I’m pretty sure that both you and I are going to die. And as he is purported to be immortal, omniscient and omnipresent, it wasn’t possible for him to die.”

    You got to be kidding me. The eternal life that Jesus promises, as any gradeschooler in Sunday school can tell you, is in HEAVEN with Him, not here on this earth.

    For instance, the thief on the cross next to Jesus was not promised to be delivered from death of his physical body on the cross at that moment, (as the other criminal on the other cross wanted), but was instead promised eternal life in ‘paradise’ with Jesus:

    Luke 23:42
    Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!” 43 And Jesus said to him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”…

    Regardless of whatever irrational bias Reapers Plague has against Christianity, the evidence for the validity of NDEs is overwhelming. In terms of validating evidence, Darwinists have nothing close in terms of validating their claims. And to repeat, that in and of itself, despite his personal animus against Christianity, refutes his atheistic/materialistic worldview:

    Near-Death Experiences: Putting a Darwinist’s Evidentiary Standards to the Test – Dr. Michael Egnor – October 15, 2012
    Excerpt: Indeed, about 20 percent of NDE’s are corroborated, which means that there are independent ways of checking about the veracity of the experience. The patients knew of things that they could not have known except by extraordinary perception — such as describing details of surgery that they watched while their heart was stopped, etc. Additionally, many NDE’s have a vividness and a sense of intense reality that one does not generally encounter in dreams or hallucinations.,,,
    The most “parsimonious” explanation — the simplest scientific explanation — is that the (Near Death) experience was real. Tens of millions of people have had such experiences. That is tens of millions of more times than we have observed the origin of species , (or the origin of life, or the origin of a protein/gene, or of a molecular machine), which is never.,,,
    The materialist reaction, in short, is unscientific and close-minded. NDE’s show fellows like Coyne at their sneering unscientific irrational worst. Somebody finds a crushed fragment of a fossil and it’s earth-shaking evidence. Tens of million of people have life-changing spiritual experiences and it’s all a big yawn.
    Note: Dr. Egnor is professor and vice-chairman of neurosurgery at the State University of New York at Stony Brook.
    http://www.evolutionnews.org/2.....65301.html

    supplemental note as to Christianity and NDEs:

    The Easter Question – Eben Alexander, M.D. – March 2013
    Excerpt: More than ever since my near death experience, I consider myself a Christian -,,,
    Now, I can tell you that if someone had asked me, in the days before my NDE, what I thought of this (Easter) story, I would have said that it was lovely. But it remained just that — a story. To say that the physical body of a man who had been brutally tortured and killed could simply get up and return to the world a few days later is to contradict every fact we know about the universe. It wasn’t simply an unscientific idea. It was a downright anti-scientific one.
    But it is an idea that I now believe. Not in a lip-service way. Not in a dress-up-it’s-Easter kind of way. I believe it with all my heart, and all my soul.,,
    We are, really and truly, made in God’s image. But most of the time we are sadly unaware of this fact. We are unconscious both of our intimate kinship with God, and of His constant presence with us. On the level of our everyday consciousness, this is a world of separation — one where people and objects move about, occasionally interacting with each other, but where essentially we are always alone.
    But this cold dead world of separate objects is an illusion. It’s not the world we actually live in.,,,
    ,,He (God) is right here with each of us right now, seeing what we see, suffering what we suffer… and hoping desperately that we will keep our hope and faith in Him. Because that hope and faith will be triumphant.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....79741.html

  19. 19
    Reapers Plague says:

    BA77

    Reapers Plague is purposely confusing Jesus’s victory over death itself with ‘merely’ a soul returning to its body. I provided evidence, via the Shroud of Turin, that Jesus’s death was anything but ordinary.

    The shroud of Turin? Are you serious? We might as well be talking about baraminology, pyramid power, and alien abductions.

    The eternal life that Jesus promises, as any gradeschooler in Sunday school can tell you, is in HEAVEN with Him, not here on this earth.

    Unless you are a Jew, Hindu, Muslim, Shinto, Native American, native Australian, Incan, Mayan, Wiccan, or any number of other religions. Where have I heard this “Master Race” rhetoric before?

  20. 20
    Silver Asiatic says:

    Sometimes they’re referred to as “clinical death” experiences, since “life functions” ceased for a time. However, it may still be true that it’s not actually “death” with all of its finality. A person could still encounter an experience “beyond life” though, since heart and brain are not active.
    Where a dream-state or hallucination are not a good explanation though since studies show common elements among NDEs and they’re actually analyzed well-enough to describe stages that persons of widely varying backgrounds go through.
    If NDEs were just dreams or personal hallucinations we wouldn’t find those similarities and patterns.

  21. 21
    ET says:

    If NDEs are occurring as frequently as some say they are then resurrection from the dead is commonplace.

    What language is that? It looks like English, but read like English, it does not.

    Near. Death. Experience. NEAR being the operative word. As opposed to a REAL death experience. Almost dead as opposed to dead. Being almost dead does not require a resurrection. Is there a medical doctor in the house?

  22. 22
    ET says:

    What?

    Unless you are a Jew, Hindu, Muslim, Shinto, Native American, native Australian, Incan, Mayan, Wiccan, or any number of other religions.

    Someone needs a nap. No one on Earth gets to decide that. Grow up

  23. 23
    Silver Asiatic says:

    Darwin, Galton, Haeckel, Huxley, Sanger, Nietzsche … all with common interest in and support of evolution and eugenics.

  24. 24
    bornagain77 says:

    “The shroud of Turin? Are you serious? ”

    Serious as a heart attack:

    First off, given the extreme scrutiny that the Shroud of Turin has been through, (far more than any other ancient relic)

    Scientific Papers and Articles (on the Shroud of Turin)
    https://www.shroud.com/papers.htm

    as well as the extremely disingenuous, (i.e. Darwinian), way atheists have tried to refute the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin, I hold the Shroud to be 100% authentic:

    First, the carbon dating has been overturned

    Shroud of Turin – Carbon 14 Test Proven False –
    – Joseph G. Marino and M. Sue Benford – video
    (with Raymond Rogers, lead chemist from the STURP project)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxDdx6vxthE

    Studies on the radiocarbon sample from the shroud of Turin – Raymond N. Rogers – 2004
    Abstract
    In 1988, radiocarbon laboratories at Arizona, Cambridge, and Zurich determined the age of a sample from the Shroud of Turin. They reported that the date of the cloth’s production lay between A.D. 1260 and 1390 with 95% confidence. This came as a surprise in view of the technology used to produce the cloth, its chemical composition, and the lack of vanillin in its lignin. The results prompted questions about the validity of the sample.
    Preliminary estimates of the kinetics constants for the loss of vanillin from lignin indicate a much older age for the cloth than the radiocarbon analyses. The radiocarbon sampling area is uniquely coated with a yellow–brown plant gum containing dye lakes. Pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry results from the sample area coupled with microscopic and microchemical observations prove that the radiocarbon sample was not part of the original cloth of the Shroud of Turin. The radiocarbon date was thus not valid for determining the true age of the shroud.,,,
    The fact that vanillin can not be detected in the lignin on shroud fibers, Dead Sea scrolls linen, and other very old linens indicates that the shroud is quite old. A determination of the kinetics of vanillin loss suggests that the shroud is between 1300- and 3000-years old. Even allowing for errors in the measurements and assumptions about storage conditions, the cloth is unlikely to be as young as 840 years.
    http://www.shroud.it/ROGERS-3.PDF

    NEW TESTS DATE THE SHROUD
    New experiments date the Shroud of Turin to the 1st century AD. They comprise three tests; two chemical and one mechanical. The chemical tests were done with Fourier Transform Infrared Spectroscopy (FTIR) and Raman spectroscopy, examining the relationship between age and a spectral property of ancient flax textiles. The mechanical test measured several micro-mechanical characteristics of flax fibers, such as tensile strength. The results were compared to similar tests on samples of cloth from between 3250 BC and 2000 AD whose dates are accurately known.
    FTIR identifies chemical bonds in a molecule by producing an infrared absorption spectrum. The spectra produce a profile of the sample, a distinctive molecular fingerprint that can be used to identify its components.
    Raman Spectroscopy uses the light scattered off of a sample as opposed to the light absorbed by a sample. It is a very sensitive method of identifying specific chemicals.
    The tests on fibers from the Shroud of Turin produced the following dates: FTIR = 300 BC + 400 years; Raman spectroscopy = 200 BC + 500 years; and multi-parametric mechanical = 400 AD + 400 years. All the dates have a 95% certainty. The average of all three dates is 33 BC + 250 years (the collective uncertainty is less than the individual test uncertainties). The average date is compatible with the historic date of Jesus’ death on the cross in 30 AD, and is far older than the medieval dates obtained with the flawed Carbon-14 sample in 1988. The range of uncertainty for each test is high because the number of sample cloths used for comparison was low; 8 for FTIR, 11 for Raman, and 12 for the mechanical test. The scientists note that “future calibrations based on a greater number of samples and coupled with ad hoc cleaning procedures could significantly improve its accuracy, though it is not easy to find ancient samples adequate for the test.”
    They used tiny fibers extracted from the Shroud by micro-analyst Giovanni Riggi di Numana, who gave them to Fanti. Riggi passed away in 2008, but he had been involved in the intensive scientific examination of the Shroud of Turin by the STURP group in 1978, and on April 21, 1988 was the man who cut from the Shroud the thin 7 x 1 cm sliver of linen that was used for carbon dating.
    These tests were carried out in University of Padua laboratories by professors from various Italian universities, led by Giulio Fanti, Italian professor of mechanical and thermal measurement at the University of Padua’s engineering faculty. He co-authored reports of the findings in 1) a paper in the journal Vibrational Spectroscopy, July 2013, “Non-destructive dating of ancient flax textiles by means of vibrational spectroscopy” by Giulio Fanti, Pietro Baraldi, Roberto Basso, and Anna Tinti, Volume 67, pages 61-70; 2) a paper titled “A new cyclic-loads machine for the measurement of micro-mechanical properties of single flax fibers coming from the Turin Shroud” by Giulio Fanti and Pierandrea Malfi for the XXI AIMETA (Italian Association of Theoretical and Applied Mechanics) congress in 2013, and 3) the 2013 book “Il Mistero della Sindone” (The Mystery of the Shroud), written by Giulio Fanti and Saverio Gaeta in Italian.
    https://www.newgeology.us/presentation24.html

    Here is a video from Robert Villarreal, friend of the late Raymond Rodgers (lead chemist on STURP). Villarreal is a scientist at the Los Alamos laboratory:

    Shroud Carbon Dating Overturned By Scientific Peer Review – video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlFTVv2l0L4

  25. 25
    bornagain77 says:

    Further notes

    The Shroud of Turin – Evidence it is authentic
    Below is a summary of scientific and historical evidence supporting the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin as the ancient burial cloth of the historical Jesus of Nazareth.
    Excerpt: THE SHROUD AS AN ANCIENT TEXTILE
    1988 CARBON-14 TEST REFUTED
    NEW TESTS DATE THE SHROUD
    IMAGE FORMATION VERSUS WORK OF AN ARTIST
    BLOOD EVIDENCE (vs PAINT THEORY)
    PATHOLOGY OF THE WOUNDS OF CRUCIFIXION AND THE SIGNATURE OF THE HISTORICAL JESUS
    BURIAL CONSISTENT WITH ANCIENT JEWISH BURIAL CUSTOM
    HISTORICAL REFERENCES
    SHROUD ILLUSTRATED IN PRAY MANUSCRIPT
    THE SUDARIUM CHRISTI – THE FACE CLOTH OF CHRIST
    THE HISTORICAL CASE FOR JESUS
    https://www.newgeology.us/presentation24.html

    Why is the Turin Shroud Authentic? – Giulio Fanti* – November 2018
    Conclusion excerpt: If, as discussed above, by authenticity of the Shroud is meant a funerary sheet, of very ancient manufacture, of about 2000 years ago, that wrapped the corpse of a man hard tortured and dead on a cross, all the scientific clues considered seem favorable to this hypothesis.
    Six [8, 10-14] out of seven independent dating methods (and [9] has been widely criticized) indicate that this linen Sheet is datable to a period including the first century after Christ. The most important Relic of Christianity wrapped a corpse. The blood traces correspond to those of a tortured man. The body image cannot be explained, but the most reliable hypotheses refer to an intense and probably very brief burst of energy. The corpse, endowed with considerable corpse rigidity, remained wrapped in the Shroud for a short period, not exceeding forty hours. All these clues therefore confirm the authenticity of the Shroud [27]
    https://juniperpublishers.com/gjaa/pdf/GJAA.MS.ID.555707.pdf

    Moreover, the repeated ‘voluntary forgetfulness’ of established facts and the repeated ‘distortion of scientific evidence’ by leading critics of the authenticity of the Shroud are gone over in the following paper, and contrary to what the critics would prefer, actually, due to the dishonest tactics the critics themselves have had to resort to to try to refute it, actually bolsters the claim that the Shroud is authentic.

    Why is the Turin Shroud Not Fake? – Giulio Fanti* – December 04, 2018
    Excerpt page 5:
    a. As reported above, some important arguments in favor of authenticity are forgotten in an apparently voluntary way. For example the scientific fact [6,19,20,25] that the Shroud wrapped the corpse of a severely tortured man, scourged, crowned with thorns and crucified according to Roman techniques is forgotten when a painting technique to explain the body image of the Shroud is supposed. Other recent results are also forgotten, such as the numismatic dating of the Shroud through the Byzantine coins [25], which sees it already in 692 AD, while someone keeps on stating that the Shroud did not exist before 1300 AD.
    b. The reality of scientific experiments are distorted and the global result is forgotten at the expense of a particular detail useful for the present goal. For example the work [22] detected the presence of pigments of various colors on the Shroud, probably due to the contamination with other paintings, but only the red pigments have been mentioned in a paper [13] to sustain a particular thesis.
    c. Statements relative to a distorted reality can be found when for example we read that pollen grains detected by a researcher on the Shroud have not been seen afterwards [13]. In fact, the same kind of pollen grains [29] together with other particles coming from powders vacuumed from the Shroud have been recently detected thus confirming more dated results.
    d. Not correct statements are still frequent like that asserting that the sample of Shroud used in 1988 for
    radiocarbon dating had been perfectly cleaned or that the pollutant should weigh about 80% of the total weight of the fabric to reach the age in which Jesus Christ lived in Palestine.,,,
    https://juniperpublishers.com/gjaa/pdf/GJAA.MS.ID.555715.pdf

    Moreover, seeing is believing

    Shroud of Turin: From discovery of Photographic Negative, to 3D Information, to Hologram
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-TL4QOCiis

    Turin Shroud Hologram Reveals The Words “The Lamb”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Tmka1l8GAQ

    So basically, we have a clothe with a photographic negative image on it that was made well before photography was even invented. Moreover, the photographic negative image has a 3-Dimensional holographic nature to its image that was somehow encoded within the photographic negative well before holography was even known about. Moreover, even with our present day technology, we still cannot replicated the image in all its detail.
    My question to atheists is this, if you truly believe some mad genius forger in the middle ages made this image, then please prey tell why did this mad genius save all his genius for this supposed forgery alone and not for, say, inventing photography itself since he surely would have required mastery of photography to pull off the forgery? Not to mention mastery of laser holography? Moreover, why did this hypothetical mad super-genius destroy all of his scientific instruments that he would have had to invent in order to make the image? Leonardo da Vinci would not have been worthy to tie the shoe laces of such a hypothetical mad genius!

    The weight of evidence for the authenticity of the Shroud, like the evidence for Intelligent Design, is simply overwhelming.

    Yet, (since Reapers Plague refuses to accept the overwhelming evidence for ID in the first place, and believes in Darwinian evolution no matter how ludicrous it is shown to be by the evidence), it is hardly surprising that he also resolutely refuses to accept the overwhelming evidence for the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin.

    At least he is being consistent in his denial of any evidence that might point towards God. Hardly a praiseworthy virtue for him to possess, but a virtue none-the-less.

  26. 26
    ET says:

    Looks like my post in 22 hit a nerve. It caused Reaper timothy Horton/ Occam’s aftershave to go full blown Tourette’s. 😛

  27. 27
    Ed George says:

    Deleted by author.

  28. 28
    Ed George says:

    ET

    Looks like my post in 22 hit a nerve. It caused Reaper timothy Horton/ Occam’s aftershave to go full blown Tourette’s

    Is this relevant to anything? Or just another insulting rant aimed at someone you dislike? Just because you dislike him. You should really try to behave like an adult.

  29. 29
    ET says:

    Acartia Eddie, please get a grip. You have lied. You have quote-mined. You have argued like an infant. You have no place to talk about anyone.

    There wasn’t any rant. There wasn’t any insult. Just astute observation.

    Yes, my post was relevant as it explains the knee-jerk, spastic reaction by Reaper. People have a right to know why things happen.

  30. 30
    Ed George says:

    ET

    Acartia Eddie, please get a grip. You have lied. You have quote-mined. You have argued like an infant. You have no place to talk about anyone.

    Yes, my post was relevant as it explains the knee-jerk, spastic reaction by Reaper. People have a right to know why things happen.

    So, that justifies making fun of people with a serious medical condition (Tourette’s)? Thank you for reminding me why I stopped responding to your comments. Something, apparently, that most intelligent people here have already decided. Hopefully I won’t make that mistake again.

  31. 31
    ET says:

    Wow. Eddie gets exposed as a liar, quote-miner and infant and all it can come back with is to make crap up about me making fun of people with Tourette’s.

    You are pathetic, even for an evo.

  32. 32
    Reapers Plague says:

    Chubs

    Wow. Eddie gets exposed as a liar, quote-miner and infant and all it can come back with is to make crap up about me making fun of people with Tourette’s.

    Now who’s the liar? Didn’t you say this about me?

    Looks like my post in 22 hit a nerve. It caused Reaper timothy Horton/ Occam’s aftershave to go full blown Tourette’s

    Ed May prefer not to interact with you because of your repulsive behavior, but I don’t suffer that affliction. You openly call people “ass munching faggots” and try to demean people by comparing them to people who suffer terrible medical conditions (eg, Tourette’s), and don’t see anything wrong with this. You somehow think that because someone’s views are different than yours that your behavior is justified. What you don’t realize is that your abusive behavior says more about your lack of intellect and character than it says about anyone else.

    What is mystifying is why the moderators of this site would continue to condone your behavior. But, it is their site. If they don’t care about the integrity of the site, they are free to allow whatever behavior they like.

  33. 33
    massam says:

    Guys, please, let’s be civil. Regardless of anyone’s position, it is important to be respectful to everyone. Acting like this is just a sign of immaturity .

  34. 34
    Silver Asiatic says:

    Axel @ 3 – thanks, and good to see you!

  35. 35
    Silver Asiatic says:

    For the study of NDE’s, as with any scientific investigation, it requires some open-mindedness and a “willingness to follow wherever the evidence leads”.
    I notice some atheists will approach the topic of NDE’s having already decided that there is no possibility that they actually are experiences of an after-life. But that’s just pre-judging. It’s going beyond what the evidence shows.
    One strong possibility is that NDE’s actually do reflect what happens to the human soul (and are evidence that an immaterial soul exists) after death.
    To dismiss that possibility is unscientific and reveals an atheistic bias. That kind of thing actually damages science.

  36. 36
    ET says:

    timothy Horton/ adapa/ the most vile anti-IDer out there:

    If they don’t care about the integrity of the site, they are free to allow whatever behavior they like.

    You’re here. Eddie is here. So clearly they either want you two exposed as the liars and losers that you are or they don’t care that you are trying to drag the site down. YOU two are the most insulting people there could be. So it’s funny watching you go all hypocrite on me.

    Nice own goal

    And it’s very telling that you cannot respond to the beatdown on your stupidity

  37. 37
    ET says:

    If ET gets banned then Eddie and Reaper have to go. They are both pathological liars with no intent on carrying out a discussion in good faith. They quote-mine, equivocate, attack and bluff. That is the extent of their ability

    If I go and they allow Eddie or Reaper to stay it will be a blight on UD

  38. 38
    Silver Asiatic says:

    BA77

    My question to atheists is this, if you truly believe some mad genius forger in the middle ages made this image, then please prey tell why did this mad genius save all his genius for this supposed forgery alone and not for, say, inventing photography itself since he surely would have required mastery of photography to pull off the forgery? Not to mention mastery of laser holography? Moreover, why did this hypothetical mad super-genius destroy all of his scientific instruments that he would have had to invent in order to make the image? Leonardo da Vinci would not have been worthy to tie the shoe laces of such a hypothetical mad genius!

    These are big questions to deal with. I’ve never seen any of the shroud-skeptics address this.
    We see claims that “the shroud is a forgery” and then the discussion ends with that. It seems obvious to me that the skeptics are afraid to go any further and are just relieved that they “silenced” the shroud.
    But wait – yes, who was this forger? We have 3-D, photographic image of amazing subtlety and refinement. Yes, it’s something that transcends the genius of Leonardo DaVinci. We continue to use 21st century technology just to try to reproduce it.
    But nobody knows the name or origin of this artistic genius? There is no evidence of a workshop or artistic guild where this innovative creation was designed? Nobody from history ever mentioned this person? This genius-artist only produced this one masterpiece work – a holographic image on a cloth (containing pollen traceable to Jerusalem)? It was not framed or put on display. Not sold to anyone. The artist got nothing from creating it. Even the name of the genius artist disappeared. He never influenced any other artists. No family, friends, artistic community – not even the parish church – ever knew or said who he was?
    Amazingly, we only discovered the true power of the image when we took a photo negative of it in the 20th century. Yes, where are the medieval instruments used to create it? Everything was just accidentally lost?

  39. 39
    bornagain77 says:

    Thanks Silver Asiatic, you put the irresolvable dilemma for atheists much better than I did. I think I will save your comment for future reference.

  40. 40
    Pater Kimbridge says:

    @GCS #15
    ” For the record – My wife is an RN and had an experience with a patient which was totally unexplainable in view of his being in cardiac arrest at the time.”

    You realize that someone saying something was “unexplainable” carries zero credibility when used to substantiate the claim that souls or an afterlife is real.

    This event would need to be thoroughly investigated. Was it? Who did the investigating? Where is their report?

  41. 41
    Axel says:

    Hey, folks, I’ve just come acros this article, which, unless you’ve read it or something as informative on the subject, will blow your mind ! I mean I remember many years ago, reading about the reflection of Juan Diego in the eyes of Our Lady in the miraculous image of Oiur Lady of Guadalupe on the Mexican robe, called a ’tilma’, but it has since been submitted to innumerable further scientific tests and has revealed a positive cornucopia of further miraculous features.

    If our God does this kind of thing on our earth, taking a seriously ill or clinically dead patient to heaven or its ante-room (believed by the RC church to be the Paradise the Good thief would have gone to initially, and the closest part of the purgatory spectrum to heaven), and then restoring their spirit to their lifeless body would hardly have presented a problem to Him. Anyway, here’s the website :

    https://abyssum.org/2013/08/25/the-image-of-our-lady-of-guadalupe-poses-such-a-threat-to-atheists-that-they-will-go-to-extraordinary-lengths-to-discredit-it/

    Atheists’ comments, after reading it, would be welcome.

    PS: I’m not saying that it is more miraculous than the Holy Shroud, but the miracles seem more numerous, and more numerous, certainly on the regular, human level.

  42. 42
    Axel says:

    @ your #40, Peter Kimbridge
    ‘You realize that someone saying something was “unexplainable” carries zero credibility when used to substantiate the claim that souls or an afterlife is real.

    This event would need to be thoroughly investigated. Was it? Who did the investigating? Where is their report?’

    You and many other atheist sceptics seem to labour under the curious misapprehension that it falls to your Christian interlocutors to convince you, according to your own, pedantically myopic criteria. You see, as it stands, it sounds very much as if it’s your loss, not your wife’s or that of the medical peole involved. Personally, I would consider someone who was impervious to the credibility of the body language, indeed the whole context of these exeperiences – some of course can be seen as fraudulent by a sensible Christian, not ‘hung up’ on the most rigid, sectarian dogmas – to be half-wits, mostly academically-educated, for sure.

  43. 43
    Silver Asiatic says:

    If, during a period where life functions have ceased, a person awakens to life and states that he or she believes he experienced an afterlife with the soul – then that is testimonial evidence. If science cannot provide contrary evidence that the person was “actually dreaming or hallucinating” and not experiencing an afterlife, then the testimonial evidence cannot be refuted. The idea that the person actually experienced an afterlife would be the most reasonable explanation.

  44. 44
    Silver Asiatic says:

    Axel,

    PS: I’m not saying that it is more miraculous than the Holy Shroud, but the miracles seem more numerous, and more numerous, certainly on the regular, human level.

    Agreed. That’s a great article about the investigations!

  45. 45
    Reapers Plague says:

    SA, I agree that it is testimonial evidence, but what if that “testimony” was that he/she was in the presence of aliens? Or an Amazon tribe?

    Before I ascribed something as the best explanation, I would want to know what the person’s fundamental “beliefs” were. I would take it more seriously if a devout Christian said that they saw Mohaamed, or if a Jew saw Jesus.

  46. 46
    Silver Asiatic says:

    RP
    The clinical research analyzes just those sorts of things and certain patterns have emerged. There are always outliers but common elements in NDEs are that the person experiences an out-of-body event, a movement towards light and sometimes religious aspects. There are examples in the literature of experiences that go against the person’s cultural background (atheists experiencing a mystical state and religious awareness) and children having the same kind of experience as adults (children would not be as culturally-conditioned).
    So far, I think the research would show that the presence of aliens or Amazon tribes would be very unusual in NDE reporting.
    I haven’t studied NDEs enough to know if the religious experience is correlated to the actual religious background of the patient or not.
    There are several stories of NDEs where the person experienced being condemned to hell and upon recovering made a radical change in their moral life.

  47. 47
    Reapers Plague says:

    SA, what I would be interested to know is how many of these documented NDEs are from people who are deeply religious. And, more importantly, do the experiences differ amongst the religions. Do you have any references that look at this? That information would be very interesting.

  48. 48
    bornagain77 says:

    per post 5:

    while the hellish NDEs are fairly rare compared to heavenly NDEs in Judeo-Christian cultures,,,

    Distressing Near-Death Experiences:
    The estimated incidence of distressing NDEs (dNDEs) for western cultures has ranged from 1% to 15% of all NDEs (Bonenfant, 2001). The results of prospective studies in which the researchers interviewed everyone who experienced cardiac arrest in one or more hospitals during a period of at least several months are noteworthy. In the four prospective studies conducted between 1984 and 2001, involving a total of 130 NDErs, none reported distressing experiences. This finding seems to confirm that the experience is relatively rare in western cultures.

    while hellish NDEs are rare in Christian cultures,,, with rare exception, all foreign, i.e. non-Judeo-Christian, NDEs that I have looked at. (and I spent hours searching the web on this matter), are hellish in their characteristics.

    A Small Glimpse At The Preponderance Of Negative Near Death Experiences Being Found In Foreign, Non-Judeo-Christian, Cultures:

    Near-Death Experiences in Thailand:
    Excerpt: The Light seems to be absent in Thai NDEs. So is the profound positive affect found in so many Western NDEs. The most common affect in our collection is negative. Unlike the negative affect in so many Western NDEs (cf. Greyson & Bush, 1992), that found in Thai NDEs (in all but case #11) has two recognizable causes. The first is fear of `going’. The second is horror and fear of hell. It is worth noting that although half of our collection include seeing hell (cases 2,6,7,9,10) and being forced to witness horrific tortures, not one includes the NDEer having been subjected to these torments themselves. (Murphy 99)
    http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm

    Near Death Experience Thailand Asia – (personal testimony) video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8M5J3zWG5g

    A Comparative view of Tibetan and Western Near-Death Experiences by Lawrence Epstein University of Washington:
    Excerpt: Episode 5: The OBE systematically stresses the ‘das-log’s discomfiture, pain, disappointment, anger and disillusionment with others and with the moral worth of the world at large. The acquisition of a yid-lus and the ability to travel instantaneously are also found here.
    Episode 6: The ‘das-log, usually accompanied by a supernatural guide, tours bar-do, where he witnesses painful scenes and meets others known to him. They give him messages to take back.
    Episode 7: The ‘das-log witnesses trials in and tours hell. The crimes and punishments of others are explained to him. Tortured souls also ask him to take back messages to the living.
    —–

    Near-Death Experiences Among Survivors of the 1976 Tangshan Earthquake (Chinese)
    Excerpt: Our subjects reported NDE phemenological items not mentioned, or rarely mentioned in NDE’s reported from other countries: sensations of the world being exterminated or ceasing to exist, a sense of weightlessness, a feeling of being pulled or squeezed, ambivalence about death, a feeling of being a different person, or a different kind of person and unusual scents. The predominant phemenological features in our series were feeling estranged from the body as if it belonged to someone else, unusually vivid thoughts, loss of emotions, unusual bodily sensations, life seeming like a dream, a feeling of dying,,, These are not the same phemenological features most commonly found by researchers in other countries. Greyson (1983) reported the most common phemenological feature of American NDE’s to be a feeling of peace, joy, time stopping, experiencing an unearthly realm of existence, a feeling of cosmic unity, and a out of body experience.
    —-

    The Japanese find death a depressing experience – From an item by Peter Hadfield in the New Scientist (Nov. 30th 1991)
    Excerpt: A study in Japan shows that even in death the Japanese have an original way of looking at things. Instead of seeing ‘tunnels of light’ or having ‘out of body’ experiences, near-dead patients in Japanese hospitals tend to see rather less romantic images, according to researchers at Kyorin University. According to a report in the Mainichi newspaper, a group of doctors from Kyorin has spent the past year documenting the near-death experiences of 17 patients. They had all been resuscitated from comas caused by heart attacks, strokes, asthma or drug poisoning. All had shown minimal signs of life during the coma. Yoshia Hata, who led the team, said that eight of the 17 recalled ‘dreams’, many featuring rivers or ponds. Five of those patients had dreams which involved fear, pain and suffering. One 50-year-old asthmatic man said he had seen himself wade into a reservoir and do a handstand in the shallows. ‘Then I walked out of the water and took some deep breaths. In the dream, I was repeating this over and over.’ Another patient, a 73-year-old woman with cardiac arrest, saw a cloud filled with dead people. ‘It was a dark, gloomy day. I was chanting sutras. I believed they could be saved if they chanted sutras, so that is what I was telling them to do.’ Most of the group said they had never heard of Near-Death Experiences before.
    —-

    Also of note, I could not find where any particular branch of Christianity had an advantage over any other branch in terms of being more likely to having a heavenly NDE. The overriding factor that determined if you would have a heavenly NDE or not is if you are in a Judeo-Christian culture or not. In other words, cultural influences dominate.

    Of supplemental note to hellish NDEs in Judeo-Christian cultures:

    Imagine Heaven – What About Hell? – John Burke – video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NWosBNDtgw

    Verse:

    Matthew 5
    29 If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to depart into hell.…

    Also of note, the tunnel and ‘the light’ at the end of the tunnel’, as well as the feeling of being beyond time, are all corroborated from what we would expect to see from what we know to be true about special relativity:

    Quantum Mechanics, Special Relativity, General Relativity and Christianity – Short take (distilled explanation of how our best theories in physics corroborate the overriding defining features of NDEs)
    https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/is-spacetime-granular-on-the-smallest-of-scales/#comment-680474

    Quantum Mechanics, Special Relativity, General Relativity and Christianity – video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4QDy1Soolo

  49. 49
    Silver Asiatic says:

    RP

    SA, what I would be interested to know is how many of these documented NDEs are from people who are deeply religious. And, more importantly, do the experiences differ amongst the religions. Do you have any references that look at this? That information would be very interesting.

    One study I read claimed that most NDEs came from people who had a religious orientation, but to me that just reflects the same distribution in our population. I haven’t seen anything indicating that NDEs are mainly for the “deeply religious” though. And there are counter-examples of non-religious people experiencing the same pattern (out of body experience, heightened awareness, walking through tunnel towards light, encountering people).
    Even if NDEs were confined to religious people though, how would this explain why they happen and have these common elements?
    I would think it would be evidence of the effectiveness of religious belief, if anything. People who pray and think about heaven actually have a mystical experience (and experience is similar as what as others of the same belief have).
    Wouldn’t that say something about the power of religious belief?

  50. 50
    Ed George says:

    SA, of course it could be a testament to the power of religious belief. But, on the other hand, it could also be as simple as a shared “delusion” due to shared religious belief. And, before anyone jumps all over me, I don’t mean “delusion” in a pejorative sense. Just that people with shared beliefs are likely to have shared biases, perceptions and interpretations. This applies to atheists as much as it does to Christians.

  51. 51
    Pater Kimbridge says:

    @ Silver Asiatic #46 said: “There are several stories of NDEs where the person experienced being condemned to hell and upon recovering made a radical change in their moral life.”

    Several?
    If Christianity is true, wouldn’t ALL non-christian NDE’s have visions of hell? And wouldn’t that be a large percentage of them?

  52. 52
    massam says:

    Pater,
    My thought has been similar. From a Christian view I think that does not apply. They are NEAR death experiences, so not full and complete death, meaning people can change and accept Christianity during the experience.

    I think you bring up a serious theological discussion. Some people would refer to the Calvinist view of “predestination”, where individuals are chosen by God at birth to be saved for eternity. So in this view I would say that the experiences of those non believers is God showing them that they are “elect” and they will live with Him.

    In another corner you have the Armenian view, which means salvation is up to individual. God could be using these experiences selectively to intrigue wonder into the non believer so that they will accept God, and then use that tool to help “save” others.

    However there are places in the Bible where non believing individuals experience heavenly experiences. Paul’s conversion in Acts is one of them.

  53. 53
    Silver Asiatic says:

    EG
    Ok, but that’s the idea that NDEs are hallucinations but in this case “shared”, and that’s a lot more difficult to explain merely by citing similar values or beliefs. People actually report the same kind of events taking place, and that’s what the clinical research shows. If merely having a religious belief can cause people to have the same afterlife, out-of-body experience, then that says something much more than they merely have the same mental biases. But as mentioned, this also does not explain the counter-examples where non-believers experienced the same sorts of events.
    My point previously was that we should be open-minded about what NDEs really could be. Sure, they could be some kind of natural, mental state but simply calling them dreams or hallucinations is not a sufficient explanation for what has been observed. Some scientists believe that NDEs are evidence of the existence of a human soul, for example.

  54. 54
    Ed George says:

    SA, but what are dreams other than out of body experiences? And there are many common themes associated with dreams. But I don’t hear people arguing that dreams are anything other than a consequence of our subconscious brains.

    I would be interested to read some papers about the NDEs of blind people. We know that blind people don’t have “visual” dreams. Their dreams do not have any visual details. Now, if their out-of-body NDEs have visual details (as, apparently, those of sighted people do), I might be more likely to be convinced. After all, there is no reason to believe that the NDE of a blind person would be any different than that of a sighted person. Or a deaf person. Or a severely mentally damaged person.

  55. 55
    Silver Asiatic says:

    Pater

    If Christianity is true, wouldn’t ALL non-christian NDE’s have visions of hell? And wouldn’t that be a large percentage of them?

    It’s an interesting question.
    My own Christian Faith is informed by a classical (so to speak), traditional view which I believe to be the correct one.
    But I think you’re talking about a certain Protestant Christian view that holds that “all non-Christians necessarily will end up in hell”.
    So, I would agree, if that version of Christianity was true (and I believe it is false) then yes, every non-Christian NDE should be a vision of hell. And, since it is not that way, it’s good evidence that that version of Christianity is false.
    But there’s another way to explain it also.
    I think what happens for some people, is that the NDE provides motivation to live a better life. This is actually part of the scientific literature where they document certain changes that occur for people who had an NDE. This is not only for visions of hell, which motivate people through fear, but also visions of the happiness of heaven – motivating people to live a good life for the happiness that lies ahead also,
    The NDE might be a sort of life-changing event that can help the person. In that case, a person who is estranged from God, a non-believer or a person opposed to a belief in an after-life, could be given a great insight by seeing the peacefulness and happiness that awaits a person who lives a morally good life.
    There are cases I have read of where a person encounters their Final Judgement and are condemned to hell, but through some incident they are given another chance and return to life again.

  56. 56
    Silver Asiatic says:

    EG

    SA, but what are dreams other than out of body experiences?

    NDEs are sometimes very different from dreams, where the person actually experiences being out of the body and yet fully present in “real life”. There are cases where a patient has “died” and was able to overhear family members and doctors talking about her, and actually to see herself lying on the hospital bed. That’s truly an out-of-body experience and not merely a fantasy.

    And there are many common themes associated with dreams. But I don’t hear people arguing that dreams are anything other than a consequence of our subconscious brains.

    Right, but it’s not a question of having common themes. It’s actually documented in the scientific literature that people encounter the same patterns of experience. And it’s not just people arguing about it. Scientists are trying to come up with explanations. The minority view is that there is a subconscious activity left over somehow after brain-death. But obviously, a person who is clinically dead is in a different condition than is a person who is just dreaming while getting an ordinary night’s sleep. Is there even any subconscious activity taking place? In those cases, there is no brain activity registering at all – so where and how are the NDE “dreams” occurring?
    That’s all a part of the mystery, and simply saying that everybody is having a shared-hallucination is not a good explanation.

  57. 57
    Ed George says:

    SA

    NDEs are sometimes very different from dreams,…

    And sometimes not very different at all.

    I don’t mean to be flippant, but I often have what are typically called lucid dreams. In these I am outside my body. I see things and hear things that most would say were not possible. And I often see these things while also seeing my animated body going about it’s normal activities. Although these dreams are remarkably similar to some recollections of NDEs, I was nowhere close to death. I don’t pretend to understand the metaphysics behind my dreams, but why aren’t these types of dreams, which I understand are not uncommon, treated in the same way that people here view NDEs?

  58. 58
    Seversky says:

    Ed George @ 57

    I don’t mean to be flippant, but I often have what are typically called lucid dreams

    To quote Mr Spock, fascinating! I first became aware of lucid dreams following a Star Trek: Voyager episode that was based on the phenomenon. I eventually got into contact with a couple in Philadelphia who were conducting research into them and had published a book based on their work. Up until then I had absolutely no idea that about 50% of the population experienced them because I am one of the other 50% who has never had one.

  59. 59
    bornagain77 says:

    In posts 7 & 8 I addressed the atheist’s claim that NDEs are ‘just dreams’

    To sum up, NDE’s are found to be ‘more real that real’, which is very interesting since EVERYTHING, including the atheist himself, turns out to be ultimately illusory and imaginary in his materialistic worldview. And, in further irony of ironies, not even the material particles themselves turn out to be solid, and concrete, and therefore ‘real’ on the materialistic definition of what is supposed to be ‘real’, but the supposedly solid and concrete material particles themselves turn out instead to be made of “abstract” immaterial information that represent, as Werner Heinsenberg himself stated, “our knowledge of this behavior”
    https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/weve-talked-about-near-death-experiences-what-about-visions-of-hell/#comment-689335

    Not to be picky, but if the atheistic materialists on UD want to be able to differentiate what is real from what is imaginary in the first place, should they not first reject their materialistic worldview in which EVERYTHING, including atoms and even atheists themselves, turn out to be imaginary?

    It would seem to be a more than reasonable request that atheists, in their forsaking of the primacy of consciousness in any definition of reality that we may put forth, (as was also pointed out in posts 7 & 8), at least honestly admit that they have no basis within their materialistic worldview to differentiate what is imaginary from what is real in the first place.

    But alas, honesty seems to be a virtue that is in short supply with the atheists on UD. To repeat what Dr. Egnor astutely obsevered, atheists are hardly being fair in their evidentary standards when it comes to judiciously evaluating the evidence for NDEs as compared to evaluating the ‘non-evidence’ that they are willing to accept for Darwinian evolution:

    Near-Death Experiences: Putting a Darwinist’s Evidentiary Standards to the Test – Dr. Michael Egnor – October 15, 2012
    Excerpt: Indeed, about 20 percent of NDE’s are corroborated, which means that there are independent ways of checking about the veracity of the experience. The patients knew of things that they could not have known except by extraordinary perception — such as describing details of surgery that they watched while their heart was stopped, etc. Additionally, many NDE’s have a vividness and a sense of intense reality that one does not generally encounter in dreams or hallucinations.,,,
    The most “parsimonious” explanation — the simplest scientific explanation — is that the (Near Death) experience was real. Tens of millions of people have had such experiences. That is tens of millions of more times than we have observed the origin of species , (or the origin of life, or the origin of a protein/gene, or of a molecular machine), which is never.,,,
    The materialist reaction, in short, is unscientific and close-minded. NDE’s show fellows like Coyne at their sneering unscientific irrational worst. Somebody finds a crushed fragment of a fossil and it’s earth-shaking evidence. Tens of million of people have life-changing spiritual experiences and it’s all a big yawn.
    Note: Dr. Egnor is professor and vice-chairman of neurosurgery at the State University of New York at Stony Brook.
    http://www.evolutionnews.org/2.....65301.html

    In regards to empirical evidence itself, the ‘common sense’ fact that consciousness must be primary in any definition of reality that we may put forth is now verified in quantum mechanics in the falsification of ‘realism’. “Realism” is the belief that a material reality exists independently of our conscious observation of it.

    Quantum physics says goodbye to reality – Apr 20, 2007
    Excerpt: They found that, just as in the realizations of Bell’s thought experiment, Leggett’s inequality is violated – thus stressing the quantum-mechanical assertion that reality does not exist when we’re not observing it. “Our study shows that ‘just’ giving up the concept of locality would not be enough to obtain a more complete description of quantum mechanics,” Aspelmeyer told Physics Web. “You would also have to give up certain intuitive features of realism.”
    http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/27640

    Reality doesn’t exist until we measure it, (Delayed Choice) quantum experiment confirms – Mind = blown. – FIONA MACDONALD – 1 JUN 2015
    Excerpt: “It proves that measurement is everything. At the quantum level, reality does not exist if you are not looking at it,” lead researcher and physicist Andrew Truscott said in a press release.
    http://www.sciencealert.com/re.....t-confirms

    Thus atheists, are now empirically shown to be wrong in their denial of the primacy of consciousness in any definition of reality that we may put forth.

    Again, atheists, especially with the falsification of realism, simply have no basis within their materialistic worldview to differentiate what is imaginary from what is real.

    Thus, the militant atheists can state their personal opinion all day long that they believe that NDEs are imaginary but the Christian Theist can readily reply, ‘So what, EVERYTHING, including atoms, and even you yourself, are imaginary in your materialistic worldview?’

    Moreover, besides quantum mechanics falsifying materialism, (i.e. falsifying ‘realism’), and verifying Theism, (and as was already pointed out), the Christian can also point to what we now know to be true from special (and general) relativity to support the “reality” of NDEs.

    As we now know from special relativity, time, as we understand it, comes to a complete stop for a hypothetical observer travelling at the speed of light.

    To grasp the whole concept of time coming to a complete stop at the speed of light a little more easily, imagine moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light. Would not the hands on the clock stay stationary as you moved away from the face of the clock at the speed of light? Moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light happens to be the very same ‘thought experiment’ that gave Einstein his breakthrough insight into special relativity. Here is a short clip from a video that gives us a look into Einstein’s breakthrough insight.

    Einstein: Einstein’s Miracle Year (‘Insight into Eternity’ – Thought Experiment 55 second mark) – video
    http://www.history.com/topics/.....racle-year

    That time, as we understand it, comes to a complete stop at the speed of light, and yet light moves from point A to point B in our universe, and thus light is obviously not ‘frozen within time, has some fairly profound implications.

    “The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass.”
    Dr. Richard Swenson – More Than Meets The Eye, Chpt. 11

    The only way it is possible for time not to pass for light, and yet for light to move from point A to point B in our universe, is if light is of a higher dimensional value of time than the temporal time we are currently living in. Otherwise light would simply be ‘frozen within time’ to our temporal frame of reference.

    And indeed that is exactly what we find. “Hermann Minkowski- one of the math professors of a young Einstein in Zurich—presented a geometric interpretation of special relativity that fused time and the three spatial dimensions of space into a single four-dimensional continuum now known as Minkowski space.”

    Spacetime
    Excerpt: In 1908, Hermann Minkowski—once one of the math professors of a young Einstein in Zurich—presented a geometric interpretation of special relativity that fused time and the three spatial dimensions of space into a single four-dimensional continuum now known as Minkowski space. A key feature of this interpretation is the definition of a spacetime interval that combines distance and time. Although measurements of distance and time between events differ for measurements made in different reference frames, the spacetime interval is independent of the inertial frame of reference in which they are recorded.
    Minkowski’s geometric interpretation of relativity was to prove vital to Einstein’s development of his 1915 general theory of relativity, wherein he showed that spacetime becomes curved in the presence of mass or energy.,,,
    Einstein, for his part, was initially dismissive of Minkowski’s geometric interpretation of special relativity, regarding it as überflüssige Gelehrsamkeit (superfluous learnedness). However, in order to complete his search for general relativity that started in 1907, the geometric interpretation of relativity proved to be vital, and in 1916, Einstein fully acknowledged his indebtedness to Minkowski, whose interpretation greatly facilitated the transition to general relativity.[10]:151–152 Since there are other types of spacetime, such as the curved spacetime of general relativity, the spacetime of special relativity is today known as Minkowski spacetime.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime

    One way for us to more easily understand this higher dimensional framework for time that light exist in is to visualize what would happen if a hypothetical observer approached the speed of light.
    In the following video clip, which was made by two Australian University Physics Professors, we find that the 3-Dimensional world ‘folds and collapses’ into a tunnel shape as a ‘hypothetical’ observer approaches the ‘higher dimension’ of the speed of light.

    Optical Effects of Special Relativity – video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQnHTKZBTI4

    OK now that we have outlined the basics of what we know to be true from special relativity, It is very interesting to note that many of the characteristics found in heavenly Near Death Experience testimonies are exactly what we would expect to see from what we now know to be true about Special Relativity.

    For instance, many times people who have had a Near Death Experience mention that their perception of time was radically altered. In the following video clip, Mickey Robinson gives his Near Death testimony of what it felt like for him to experience a ‘timeless eternity’.

    ‘In the ‘spirit world,,, instantly, there was no sense of time. See, everything on earth is related to time. You got up this morning, you are going to go to bed tonight. Something is new, it will get old. Something is born, it’s going to die. Everything on the physical plane is relative to time, but everything in the spiritual plane is relative to eternity. Instantly I was in total consciousness and awareness of eternity, and you and I as we live in this earth cannot even comprehend it, because everything that we have here is filled within the veil of the temporal life. In the spirit life that is more real than anything else and it is awesome. Eternity as a concept is awesome. There is no such thing as time. I knew that whatever happened was going to go on and on.’
    In The Presence Of Almighty God – The NDE of Mickey Robinson – video (testimony starts at 27:45 minute mark)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voak1RM-pXo

    And here are a few more quotes from people who have experienced Near Death, that speak of how their perception of time was radically altered as they were outside of their material body during their NDEs.

    ‘Earthly time has no meaning in the spirit realm. There is no concept of before or after. Everything – past, present, future – exists simultaneously.’
    – Kimberly Clark Sharp – Near Death Experiencer

    ‘There is no way to tell whether minutes, hours or years go by. Existence is the only reality and it is inseparable from the eternal now.’
    – John Star – NDE Experiencer

  60. 60
    bornagain77 says:

    As well, Near Death Experiencers also frequently mention going through a tunnel to a higher heavenly dimension:

    Ask the Experts: What Is a Near-Death Experience (NDE)? – article with video
    Excerpt: “Very often as they’re moving through the tunnel, there’s a very bright mystical light … not like a light we’re used to in our earthly lives. People call this mystical light, brilliant like a million times a million suns…”
    – Jeffrey Long M.D. – has studied NDE’s extensively

    The Tunnel and the Near-Death Experience
    Excerpt: One of the nine elements that generally occur during NDEs is the tunnel experience. This involves being drawn into darkness through a tunnel, at an extremely high speed, until reaching a realm of radiant golden-white light.

    In the following video, Barbara Springer gives her testimony as to what it felt like for her to go through the tunnel:

    “I started to move toward the light. The way I moved, the physics, was completely different than it is here on Earth. It was something I had never felt before and never felt since. It was a whole different sensation of motion. I obviously wasn’t walking or skipping or crawling. I was not floating. I was flowing. I was flowing toward the light. I was accelerating and I knew I was accelerating, but then again, I didn’t really feel the acceleration. I just knew I was accelerating toward the light. Again, the physics was different – the physics of motion of time, space, travel. It was completely different in that tunnel, than it is here on Earth. I came out into the light and when I came out into the light, I realized that I was in heaven.”
    Barbara Springer – Near Death Experience – The Tunnel – video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv2jLeoAcMI

    And in the following audio clip, Vicki Noratuk, (who has been blind from birth, besides being able to see for the first time during in her life during her Near Death Experience), Vicki also gives testimony of going through a tunnel:

    “I was in a body, and the only way that I can describe it was a body of energy, or of light. And this body had a form. It had a head, it had arms and it had legs. And it was like it was made out of light. And it was everything that was me. All of my memories, my consciousness, everything.”,,, “And then this vehicle formed itself around me. Vehicle is the only thing, or tube, or something, but it was a mode of transportation that’s for sure! And it formed around me. And there was no one in it with me. I was in it alone. But I knew there were other people ahead of me and behind me. What they were doing I don’t know, but there were people ahead of me and people behind me, but I was alone in my particular conveyance. And I could see out of it. And it went at a tremendously, horrifically, rapid rate of speed. But it wasn’t unpleasant. It was beautiful in fact.,, I was reclining in this thing, I wasn’t sitting straight up, but I wasn’t lying down either. I was sitting back. And it was just so fast. I can’t even begin to tell you where it went or whatever it was just fast!” –
    Vicki’s NDE – Blind since birth –
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e65KhcCS5-Y

    And in the following quotes, the two Near Death Experiencers both testify that they firmly believed that they were in a higher heavenly dimension that is above this three-dimensional world, and that the reason that they have a very difficult time explaining what their Near Death Experiences actually felt like is because we simply don’t currently have the words to properly describe that higher dimension:

    “Regardless, it is impossible for me to adequately describe what I saw and felt. When I try to recount my experiences now, the description feels very pale. I feel as though I’m trying to describe a three-dimensional experience while living in a two-dimensional world. The appropriate words, descriptions and concepts don’t even exist in our current language. I have subsequently read the accounts of other people’s near-death experiences and their portrayals of heaven and I able to see the same limitations in their descriptions and vocabulary that I see in my own.”
    Mary C. Neal, MD – To Heaven And Back pg. 71

    “Well, when I was taking geometry, they always told me there were only three dimensions, and I always just accepted that. But they were wrong. There are more… And that is why so hard for me to tell you this. I have to describe with words that are three-dimensional. That’s as close as I can get to it, but it’s really not adequate.”
    John Burke – Imagine Heaven pg. 51 – quoting a Near Death Experiencer

    That what we now know to be true from special relativity, (namely that it outlines a ‘timeless’ higher dimesion that exists above this temporal dimension), would fit hand and glove with the personal testimonies of people who have had a deep heavenly NDE is, needless to say, powerful evidence that their testimonies are, in fact, accurately describing the ‘reality’ of a higher heavenly dimension that exists above this temporal real.

    And while it is certainly true that one cannot place too much emphasis on just one Near Death Experience as being undeniably true, none the less, since the experiences are verified repeatedly by millions of different people who have died for a short while and have come back to tell us of their experiences, then the ‘subjective observations’ of these people, (of a timeless eternity and of ‘going through a tunnel’), are, none the less, extremely reliable in that they do indeed exactly match the characteristics of what we would expect to be true beforehand from what we know to be scientifically true from special relativity.

    I would even go so far as to say that such corroboration from ‘non-physicists’, who know nothing about the intricacies of special relativity, is a complete scientific verification for the overall validity of NDE testimonies.

    Luke 23:43
    Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

    2 Corinthians 12:2-4
    I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.

    Supplemental quote: ‘How You Think About Heaven Affects Everything in Life,’

    Texas Pastor John Burke Says Near-Death Experiences Are ‘Amazingly Biblical’ (Video) – Oct 25, 2015
    ‘How You Think About Heaven Affects Everything in Life,’ Says Gateway Church Pastor
    http://www.christianpost.com/n.....eo-148156/

    Supplemental note: The reality of a soul that is capable of living beyond the death of our material bodies is now strongly supported by advances in quantum biology:

    Darwinian Materialism vs. Quantum Biology – Part II – video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSig2CsjKbg

    Verse:

    Mark 8:37
    Is anything worth more than your soul?

  61. 61
    ET says:

    Acartia Eddie:

    but what are dreams other than out of body experiences?

    In what way are dreams an out of body experience? Just asking a question or making a bald assertion isn’t an argument, Eddie. You still have to make a case, which you never do

  62. 62
    Silver Asiatic says:

    Ed G

    I don’t mean to be flippant, but I often have what are typically called lucid dreams. In these I am outside my body. I see things and hear things that most would say were not possible. And I often see these things while also seeing my animated body going about it’s normal activities. Although these dreams are remarkably similar to some recollections of NDEs, I was nowhere close to death. I don’t pretend to understand the metaphysics behind my dreams, but why aren’t these types of dreams, which I understand are not uncommon, treated in the same way that people here view NDEs?

    A few things. First, you’re giving testimonial evidence about what you’ve experienced. Ok, for me, the wrong (and stupid) approach towards your claim is to dismiss what you’ve said and demand “evidence”. Obviously, in order to proceed I should accept what you experienced as being accurate and then try to understand it. If what you said is true, then it’s a valid part of reality that we have to try to understand. We don’t shut you down because science does not have an answer.
    Some of your dreams are vivid and you have an out-of-body experience where you observe (see and hear) things that would otherwise be impossible. Yes, that’s some of what commonly happens with NDEs. I would say also that it’s extremely unusual for people to have dreams like that, where you observe not a dream-state, but the actual reality around you, and see or hear things that actual people are saying or doing around you, which would be impossible to hear otherwise. For example, if you could hear a conversation or see what people are doing in your neighbor’s house – that’s an out of body experience, and the kind of telepathy that NDEs show.
    If that happens to you somewhat frequently, I’d try to learn more about it. Again, I don’t think anyone would call your experience the ordinary sort of dream.
    But as to why people do not get excited about ordinary dreams versus NDEs is that most ordinary dreams are about a dream-state of some kind. But NDEs have common elements and people describe the experience as a vivid and life-changing event. Ordinary dreams do not have that characteristic.
    Michael Egnor gives a reasonable overview of NDEs. He does not accept all of them as evidence of an afterlife or of a soul.
    As with your own dreams, you’re giving anecdotal evidence. To really study what is going on, we’d need to know the content of your dream and how you really view it.
    Since the NDE-er can be deluded about what was experienced, it takes a lot of independent testimonies to collect and find commonality. But in the end, even if only a small percentage of NDEs reflect an objective reality, then that tells us something about the human soul and how it exists after death.

    People in comas don’t have “dreams” as we understand them (if they’re dreaming, they’re sleeping, which is not coma). There is no simple medical explanation for such a rich complex experience, which occurred when the man’s brain function was so minimal that he was comatose, a state associated with neurological disability so profound that speaking or comprehending or even purposefully moving are impossible.
    The most “parsimonious” explanation — the simplest scientific explanation — is that the experience was real.

    When the brain activity is so minimal that the person cannot even function enough to move the body, then to claim that the brain actively creates predictive and out-of-body activity at the same time is contradictory.

  63. 63
    Axel says:

    Re your #44, Silver Asiatic, glad you liked that piece, so full of scientifically-established and verified miracles. I found it stunning ; in effect, so rich in that regard as to presage a resolution of salvation history, as indeed, the Shroud before it, does in reality. I doubt if we will hear anything on the subject from our atheist interlocutors. as it seems difficult to imagine plausible criticisms.

    As regards testimonial evidence of a particularly unique, so to speak, ‘waking’ NDE, have any of you, I wonder, heard and looked into the extraordinary mystical happenings at Kibeho, in Rwanda, which place was relatively speedily elevated to an official place of pilgrimage on a par with no less than Lourdes. I believe such official sanctioning by the Vatican of Medjugorje is still anticipated, but still pending,

    One of the school-girls concerned made it known that she would be in a deep coma over an Easter weekend, but asked that she should not be buried, as, despite medical checks indicating otherwise, she would not be dead, but would wake up on the Easter Sunday. This happened.

    During her NDE, she was actually taken up to see the Cherubim and Seraphim praising God in Heaven, which is pretty ‘big beer’, considering their egregiously exalted status. Our biggest ‘big-shots’ among the angels are the archangels, though apparently they are of relatively modest status, in comparison. The glory of our holy guardian-angels is said to be wonderful in our eyes, not to speak of their power, so imagine the glory of those of the angels higher up the scale !

  64. 64
    Silver Asiatic says:

    Axel – I had only just briefly heard about the events in Kibeho.
    That is fascinating information – I will look into it more!
    Yes, if she made it to a vision of Seraphim, then she was “way up there”. 🙂
    I’m interested in this sort of thing in Africa. I’ve been reading Cdl. Sarah’s newest book, and he reflects on the great work of the Holy Ghost Fathers working in Gabon at the time. They had a tremendous effect on the society – and we see good results across Africa today.

  65. 65
    GCS says:

    Peter (@ 40),

    I included that information just to avoid any future claim of bias, etc.

    I can only offer evidence from what was told to me. It obviously is not “proof” of anything, but you can at least see why I found it interesting and raised questions in my mind.

    My wife was working the ER when an unconscious patient came in. She witnessed the arrest on the monitor and gave a powerful precordial thump. They went on to resuscitate the patient and shipped him unconscious up to the ICU.

    The next day when she came in to work she was told that the patient wanted to see the nurse who worked on her. She went up and the patient immediately recognized her. The patient told her that he had seen her ready to hit him, had braced himself, and was surprised that he did not feel anything when her fist came down. Pretty good for a patient who was unconscious and flat-lined.

    I know what was reported to me. You have to decide for yourself how you will react. You have the free will to totally reject it, enthusiastically accept it, or just add it to your accumulated knowledge as something that may be of use in the future.

    This event was not investigated but it gives me confidence in believing the number of events that have been reportedly investigated and show similar phenomena.

    Thank You and God Bless

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