Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

What are the First Rules of Right Reason? Are They Negotiable? Do They Matter?

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About two weeks ago, I read a scientific report that challenged my perceptions about the relationship between philosophy and science. So much so, that it forced me to doubt some of my erstwhile convictions about the value of logic and prompted me to revise major elements of my global world view. As it turns out, an empirically-based study indicated, within a 1% margin of error, that there are more people in the city of Los Angeles than in the entire state of California. I would never have accepted this counter-intuitive claim had there been no evidence to support it.

At this point, my readers might wonder how I could be so pathologically gullible as to accept such an absurd proposition. Or, more likely, they will recognize my scenario as a playful exercise in misdirection that conveys an important point: No amount of evidence or appeal to the authority of science could ever invalidate a self-evident truth. The city of Los Angeles simply cannot have more people than the entire state of California. Any such claim would violate one of the first principles of right reason: A finite whole can never be less than any one of its parts. Drawing on that same principle, I can be equally certain that a man’s head cannot displace more water than his entire body or that our sun cannot weigh more than the solar system of which it is a part.

On reflection, we should be able to appreciate the significance of these examples and place them in the context of a broader principle: Evidence does not inform the rules of right reason; the rules of right reason inform evidence. That is because self-evident truths, the starting point from which all rational inquiry begins, provide the means by which all other truth claims, scientific or otherwise, must be evaluated. Accordingly, we don’t reason our way TO these principles; we reason our way FROM them. Evidence, at least of the scientific variety, cannot invalidate or pass judgment on them because evidence is the thing being validated and judged.

Among reason’s most authoritative judges, the Law of Identity, the Law of Non-Contradiction, and the Law of the Excluded middle reign supreme. Ontologically, a thing cannot be what it is and also be something else. Logically and psychologically, a proposition cannot be true and false at the same time and in the same sense. The thinking process begins with the understanding of what is and what cannot be. Without this constraint, that is, without the ability to rule things out, reasoned analysis and meaningful dialogue are impossible. One can say, “If A, then B”, only if everything except B is understood to be an impossible consequence of A.

Postmodernist skeptics often try to argue that these points apply only to our mental framework and the ways that we think about things. The careful reader will notice, though, that the aforementioned laws are both objectively and subjectively true. They apply to both the world as it is (ontology) and the world as we perceive it (epistemology). That is why we can differentiate between a sound argument, which is both internally consistent and consistent with truths found in the real world, and a valid argument, which may only meet the first condition. If one begins with a true premise about the real world and reasons perfectly, he will arrive at a true conclusion about the real world; if one begins with a false premise and reasons perfectly, he will arrive at a false conclusion. In terms of logic and causation, then, our mental models correspond with real world facts. There is no divide between them however passionately the skeptics might wish it to be so.

Among reason’s most pragmatic judges, the Law of Causality and the Principle of Sufficient Reason define the rational standards for all philosophical and scientific investigations. Everything must have a reason or cause for its existence and an explanation for why it undergoes change. Let’s consider a simple example of the former: Person A enters a room with person B and says, “Look, there is a red ball sitting on the table. I wonder how it got there.” Person B, amazed at the question, asks, “What do you mean, ‘how did it get there?’ Obviously, someone put it there.” This is, of course, the correct response. The red ball is, after all, contingent and finite; someone had to bring it into existence and put it in place. Now, let’s blow the ball up to the size of a house. Has the argument changed or lost any of its force? No. The only thing that has changed is the size of the ball. Now, blow the ball up to the size of the United States—now to the size of our Solar system—now to the size of the universe. Has the argument changed? No. Is the ball any less finite or less dependent on a cause? No. Only its size is different. Obviously, someone put it there.

Again, the careful reader will notice that the Law of Causality applies not only to those things that come into being but also those things that undergo change. In the latter context, the principle can be further simplified: A cause cannot give what it does not have to give. There is no reason, for example, to conduct an empirical investigation to negate or affirm the hypothesis that a gold bar could come from a gold sliver, or that a sand castle could come from a single grain. In either case, there is nothing in the cause that could produce the effect. Additional raw materials would have to be gathered by an outside agent and fashioned into a new product. No amount of evidence could override these metaphysical truths.

It often escapes the notice of professional cynics that reason’s rules also establish the rigorous standards for scientific methodology even before evidence enters the picture. Among the many questions which must be answered are the following: What is the difference between causation and correlation? When is it appropriate to use ordinal, nominal, or interval measurements? What is the most dependable way to isolate variables? Can variables be totally isolated at all? When should we apply mathematical principles? When should we apply statistical principles? What is science? What counts as evidence? What is an experiment? What is a theory? What constitutes a proof? What is the difference between probability, virtual certainty, and absolute certainty? In what ways does a philosophical investigation differ from a scientific investigation? Do they overlap? We cannot interpret evidence in a rational way until we answer these and many other questions.

Objective rational standards are, for want of a better term, epistemological safeguards. Under their jurisdiction, all parties must check their political motives and personal agendas at the door: Religious believers will not presume to use the book of Genesis as a scientific textbook, and secular doubters will not presume to disallow a “Divine foot in the door.” The role of scientists, after all, is to sit at the feet of nature and allow her to reveal her secrets. In that context, there is always an ethical component involved in their research: Either they will follow the evidence according to reason’s rules, or they will lead the evidence according to their own biases and prejudices. There is no middle ground for interpretation. One is either drawing information out of the data or injecting ideology into the data.

In this respect, the micro world is subject to the same metaphysical principles as the macro world. Quantum theorists, therefore, cannot reasonably challenge first principles on the grounds that quantum particles behave in strange and surprising ways. It was, after all, those same principles that brought attention to the strange and surprising behavior in the first place. In the absence of reason’s rules, we could not have known the difference between what is odd and what is normal or apprehend the counter-intuitive nature of quantum activity. Any scientist who presumes to negotiate away reason’s rules is, in effect, trying to put out of business the same principles that put him in business.

Meanwhile, the big questions remained unanswered. If one thing can come into existence without a cause, why cannot anything else do the same? Why not everything? Within such a “liberated” framework, how can the scientist know which events are caused and which ones are not? In any case, it appears that the special pleading of the quantum theorists has ended. At first, we were told that their claim on behalf of causeless events was a one-time deal. If, just this once, we would exempt their specialty from rational standards, there would be no more breaches—that is, until Lawrence Krauss exclaimed that the entire universe popped into existence without a cause. So much for special limits. But the development was entirely predictable. Irrationality knows no limits. That is why it is irrational.

That raises the prior question about why anyone in any specialty would question reason’s rules. In large part, the answer lies with members of the educational elite and their desire to take reason’s place as the final arbiter of right thinking. If reason has no rules, then power does the ruling. In order to facilitate that strategy, elitists promote the anti-intellectual doctrine that only empirical knowledge is real knowledge. If a concept or idea cannot be verified thought scientific means, then it doesn’t qualify as legitimate knowledge. Obviously, that philosophy refutes itself since it cannot pass its own test. It cannot be proven to be valid through empirical methods.

Wouldn’t it be easier to dispense with all this nonsense and simply acknowledge self-evident truths for what they are? What could be more reasonable than affirming with confidence that which we already know? It isn’t just the integrity of science that is at stake. Our ability to engage in any kind of rational discourse depends on it. Every long journey begins with a single step. Surely, we can all agree that there could never be more people in the city of Los Angeles than in the state of California without adding the words, —“yes, but”….” Or can we?

Comments
Mark
I don’t want to get into a dispute about the meaning of contingent. All I am saying is that something can be neither logically necessary not logically impossible, i.e. it might or might not happen, and yet not be dependent on some other event. The two things are distinct and Geisler’s argument seems to work by confusing the two.
I am not sure that you appreciate what is being said here. A contingent being is, by definition, something that does not exist in and of itself and, THEREFORE, depends for its existence upon some other being. Contingency cannot be separated from dependency. It is contingent not just because someone [a] had to bring it into existence but also because someone [b] has to sustain its existence. Being (like your existence) is an ongoing thing. It is not just something that happened once. What this indicates is that the law of non-contradiction is inextricably tied to the law of causality. To dismiss one is to dismiss the other. So, you cannot, as you appear to be doing, reasonably embrace the law of noncontradiction while dismissing the law of causality. SB: If a quantum particle appearing in your living room without a cause does not violate the laws of physics, why does a horse [or a water molecule] appearing in your living room without a cause violate the laws of physics?
Because a horse is much bigger – but I am not sure of this particular claim.
What about a deck of cards? What about computer? What about a water molecule? Would their spontaneous appearance violate the laws of physics? You seem to suggest that there is a size for objects beyond which they cannot spontaneously appear without violating the laws of physics. What size would that be? Where do you draw the line between those objects that can spontaneously appear without violating physical laws and those that cannot?
More important is that I simply have not observed objects of that size appearing without cause.
Have you observed objects of any size appearing without a cause? If not, then the size component would seem to be irrelevant. Can a non-existent horse or a non-existent anything appear anywhere (your living room or anywhere else) without a cause? The “magnitude” of the object would seem to be irrelevant.
In principle yes.
OK. So really, the door is open for anything at any time to come into existence without a cause. In effect, you are saying that there is no such thing as a contingent being. That all existent things can exist in and of themselves, which is a contradiction, since we know that all of empirical reality is finite.
Of course we have never observed anything like it and it is utterly implausible – so if it did happen we would look for, even assume, a cause – causality has proved to me a most productive assumption – but it is logically possible that there is no cause.
Well I would argue that quantum particles can and do appear without a cause – so I don’t need to address that specific question.
Yes. that follows. Given your position that, in principle, anything at all could appear anywhere without a cause, how could you (or a scientist, for that matter) differentiate between those things that are caused and those which are not? Evidence cannot answer that question, of course. It can only tell us which things followed which other things in time.StephenB
July 25, 2013
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That should read: causality has proved to be a most productive assumptionMark Frank
July 25, 2013
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Stephen #68
One must assume and accept the principle of causality in order to detect the fact of uncertainty and unpredictability.
I don't understand why this is true. Can you show me the proof?
[a] If a quantum particle appearing in your living room without a cause does not violate the laws of physics, why does a horse [or a water molecule] appearing in your living room without a cause violate the laws of physics?
Because a horse is much bigger – but I am not sure of this particular claim. More important is that I simply have not observed objects of that size appearing without cause.
[b] Even at that, what is to prevent the laws of physics from changing? If they came into existence without a cause, a possibility that you clearly allow for, why can’t they also change without a cause?
Same reason – I (and mankind in general) have observed that the laws of physics remain constant.
Well, you don’t really have evidence that they “do not appear,” which refers to logical possibilities, so much as you have evidence (sort of) that they “have not appeared,” which refers to what we have experienced. The question, though, is whether it can happen at all–in principle. Can a non-existent horse or a non-existent anything appear anywhere (your living room or anywhere else) without a cause? The “magnitude” of the object would seem to be irrelevant.
In principle yes.  Of course we have never observed anything like it and it is utterly implausible – so if it did happen we would look for, even assume, a cause – causality has proved to me a most productive assumption – but it is logically possible that there is no cause.
We still have do address the question as to why a universe and the laws of physics could appear without a cause, if a horse (or a quantum particle or a water molecule) all of which are part of the universe and depend on those laws, could not appear without a cause.
Well I would argue that quantum particles can and do appear without a cause – so I don’t need to address that specific question.Mark Frank
July 25, 2013
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Stephen
We are discussing a contingent being. If A is contingent on the existence of B, it necessarily follows that A is also dependent on B.
I don't want to get into a dispute about the meaning of contingent. All I am saying is that something can be neither logically necessary not logically impossible, i.e. it might or might not happen, and yet not be dependent on some other event. The two things are distinct and Geisler's argument seems to work by confusing the two.Mark Frank
July 25, 2013
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Mark
I suspect you are right and you could never prove there was no cause. But the point is not to find evidence for acausality one way or the other. The point is whether you have to accept the principle of sufficient reason a priori in order to do science.
One must assume and accept the principle of causality in order to detect the fact of uncertainty and unpredictability. On the one hand, If the physicist ASSUMES acausality, then there are no grounds for claiming uncertainty and unpredictability. On the other hand, if he CONCLUDES acausality, he is saying that the same principle of causality which he assumed and which allowed him to detect uncertainty and unpredictability in the first place, is no longer in force, which means that his observations are invalid.
I would say that a horse cannot appear in my living room whether it be caused or not! I am almost certain it would break some established laws of physics.
[a] If a quantum particle appearing in your living room without a cause does not violate the laws of physics, why does a horse [or a water molecule] appearing in your living room without a cause violate the laws of physics? [b] Even at that, what is to prevent the laws of physics from changing? If they came into existence without a cause, a possibility that you clearly allow for, why can't they also change without a cause?
I also have empirical evidence that objects of that kind of magnitude and complexity do not appear suddenly without or with cause.
Well, you don't really have evidence that they "do not appear," which refers to logical possibilities, so much as you have evidence (sort of) that they "have not appeared," which refers to what we have experienced. The question, though, is whether it can happen at all--in principle. Can a non-existent horse or a non-existent anything appear anywhere (your living room or anywhere else) without a cause? The "magnitude" of the object would seem to be irrelevant.
However, we have no idea what physical laws apply to the creation of universes and no empirical evidence of whether such unique events happen without cause.
We still have do address the question as to why a universe and the laws of physics could appear without a cause, if a horse (or a quantum particle or a water molecule) all of which are part of the universe and depend on those laws, could not appear without a cause.StephenB
July 25, 2013
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Mark
An uncaused event is contingent in the sense that it could have been otherwise – the beta particle might have been emitted at a different time – but it is not dependent – there was nothing that meant it had to be emitted at that particular time.
We are discussing a contingent being. If A is contingent on the existence of B, it necessarily follows that A is also dependent on B.StephenB
July 25, 2013
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Stephen
It matters a great deal. If they are claiming that evidence can prove acausality, then they are making false claims. Evidence cannot prove acausality. It can only prove uncertainty and unpredictability. If they assume causality, then their conclusions are tautological.
I suspect you are right and you could never prove there was no cause. But the point is not to find evidence for acausality one way or the other. The point is whether you have to accept the principle of sufficient reason a priori in order to do science.
The success of physics or quantum mechanics is, in no way, related to the assumption of acausality. Plenty of physicists agree that the events are caused. Quantum mechanics works just as well for them.
As I understand it, one of your main points is that as a rule of right reason the assumption of causality is necessary to do science.  Plenty of physicists agree that events are caused. Others don’t. The point is that both groups are able to carry on doing science.
Would you include the universe as one of those things can can appear without a cause?
Yes. It is a unique event which we know very little about. There is no reason to dismiss it happening without a cause.
Are you saying that a horse can or cannot appear in your living room without a cause? Why do you think so in either case?
I would say that a horse cannot appear in my living room whether it be caused or not! I am almost certain it would break some established laws of physics. I also have empirical evidence that objects of that kind of magnitude and complexity do not appear suddenly without or with cause. However, we have no idea what physical laws apply to the creation of universes and no empirical evidence of whether such unique events happen without cause.  Mark Frank
July 25, 2013
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Folks: One of the problems with discussion threads is they easily go off on tangents and leave a false impression regarding the substantial matter. Here, status and significance of first principles of right reason. For the identity cluster (LOI, LNC, LEM) all that is required is that we have distinct entities in the world, such that we have a world partition, W = {A | NOT-A} from that he three laws are immediately present corollaries. Just start with the bright red ball on the table. And fuzziness of borders can be resolved, it does not make distinction go away. As for the rabbit trails on quantum physics, let it begin from the fact that physicists use symbols in their reasoning and calculating that require such world partitions to have any cogency. In short they cannot very well be sawing off the branch on which they too are sitting. And, uncertainty is just that, it is saying that there is a limit to the precision with which we can evaluate entangled quantities such as energy and time or position and momentum. This, because, in simple terms the attempt to ascertain the one disturbs the other. That does not have anything to do with either distinction or cause as such. Similar, that certain phenomena are superpositions, does not show a contradiction no more than that a plucked guitar string is similarly vibrating in a node-antinode pattern shaped by superposition. Next, I have pointed out that the principle of sufficient reason -- if a thing is, we may ask and reasonably investigate why so -- grounds our understanding of contingency/necessity of being, and so we have cause-effect as an explanation of contingent being. Yes, there are ever so many who have disputed cause and effect. Disputing something that is well founded does not make it dubious (what too many try to suggest when they say something is "controversial" . . . in large measure because they and ilk object to it). They need to do the match exercise: light one, watch it burn by half, then tilt the burned part up, and watch the flame go down then out. This reflects the enabling -- strictly, "necessary" -- causal factors, heat, fuel, oxidiser and chain reaction, and what happens when we reduce the effect of such a factor, by making the flame try to burn the already burned part of the stick. That is, we can see the reality of cause in action, and in particular the significance of necessary, enabling ON/OFF factors. If a contingent entity exists, it had a beginning, and for that to be so there was a sufficient cluster of causal factors at minimum including all necessary ones. Consult the fire tetrahedron, or more simply the fire triangle and a box of matches if this seems to complicated for you. Some that suggested causeless events in quantum mechanics. Not so, at trivial level there are ALWAYS obvious enabling factors present, sometimes so simple as that no radioactive atom, no decay. No photon of sufficient energy, no metal or the like surface, no photo effect. And the like. Of course phenomena such as the RA decay of a given atom at a given moment, we cannot predict. Just, we do not know -- may not be able to know -- the factors in toto at work. For example we know a quantum potential barrier is subject to tunnelling, and there is a stochastic side to that so say an alpha can sometimes break out of a nucleus, in simple terms. But there are obvious antecedent factors present with causal force. In particular, we have no good reason to accept that things or events may happen, may begin, without cause adequate for such. Specifically, nothing -- NON BEING -- can have no causal powers. Which points to there being a necessary being at the root of our contingent cosmos. So, the point is, once understood we see such principles are true and it can be shown that attempted rejection or denial ends up in affirming. As in such an event happens, and it has -- always -- a sufficient cause (a denier). Similarly, to object, one uses oral or written symbols that take effect in part from being world partitions. I find it incredible that such has to be belaboured for week after week, month after month. It speaks volumes on the roots of too many objections we see. There is one point where SB made an error, on effect of a false premise. I have joined others on correction, which has been acknowledged. As modelling theory highlights, a false ("simplified" is the usual euphemism) antecedent can entail true consequents. However, as the need for validation and accepting limits to models shows, such premises are inherently unreliable in universal terms. Empirical reliability of an explanatory model does not equate to universal truth. Let us pull together and think about what all this is pointing to. Cf. my thoughts here on in context. KF PS: In jet lag recovery.kairosfocus
July 25, 2013
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Mark
Absolutely. That is my main point.
Would you include the universe as one of those things can can appear without a cause?
To answer that “why” question is to provide a cause. The whole point is that there some events such as the appearance of elementary particles for which there is no answer to the question “why”. There are probably some good physical reasons why something as large as a horse cannot appear in your living room – conservation of mass/energy perhaps – but if you were to ask why some elementary particles do not appear suddenly or why they do not appear at particular time – then again there is no answer. That is the whole meaning of “uncaused”. It is just that way.
Are you saying that a horse can or cannot appear in your living room without a cause? Why do you think so in either case?StephenB
July 25, 2013
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Mark:
I don’t think it matters whether the quantum physicists assume or conclude things come into existence without a cause.
It matters a great deal. If they are claiming that evidence can prove acausality, then they are making false claims. Evidence cannot prove acausality. It can only prove uncertainty and unpredictability. If they assume causality, then their conclusions are tautological.
The point is that they believe it to be true, work as though it were true, and physics carries on just fine. Thus proving that science does not have to assume that nothing comes into existence without a cause.
The success of physics or quantum mechanics is, in no way, related to the assumption of acausality. Plenty of physicists agree that the events are caused. Quantum mechanics works just as well for them.
Absolutely. That is my main point. Would you include the universe as one of those things that can just be there (appear) without a cause?
There are probably some good physical reasons why something as large as a horse cannot appear in your living room – conservation of mass/energy perhaps – but if you were to ask why some elementary particles do not appear suddenly or why they do not appear at particular time – then again there is no answer.
Are you saying that a horse can or cannot appear in your living room without a cause? Why do you think so in either case?
StephenB
July 25, 2013
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#61 Stephen - thanksMark Frank
July 24, 2013
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Mark
Mung has not found a hole of any significance in Lizzie’s counterexample. Here are some more of the same form:
I am persuaded that a singular false premise can produce a true conclusion unless someone shows me that we are missing something.StephenB
July 24, 2013
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#53 Stephen Mung has not found a hole of any significance in Lizzie's counterexample. Here are some more of the same form: All cars are right-hand drive (false) Therefore, my car is right-hand drive (true) All swans are white (false) Therefore the swans in our village are white (true) All planets are habitable (false) Therefore Earth is habitable (true) Give in?Mark Frank
July 24, 2013
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Vividbleau #46
Its called the indeterminacy or uncertainty principle not the “uncaused” principle. To say we don’t know and are uncertain is not to say therefore it is uncaused.
As I understand it the inability to predict when quantum events happen is not just a result of the uncertainty principle. But the important point is that many physicists conclude not only that they don't know when these events are going to happen but that there is no cause and they carry on doing physics. They may be wrong. Maybe there is a cause to be discovered. However, it shows that is not necessary to assume a cause to do the science.Mark Frank
July 24, 2013
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Mung #50
All cats do have tails. Some cats may not have their tail attached to their body though
Have you never heard of a Manx cat?Mark Frank
July 24, 2013
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No Problem StephenB, hopefully my terrible sentence structure was not too hard to decipher so as to see the main points I was hoping to make.bornagain77
July 24, 2013
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@52, no problem!computerist
July 24, 2013
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Bornagain77, thanks again for your always edifying and relevant contributions.StephenB
July 24, 2013
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Elizabeth @35 Mark @39 I hope to respond to your posts late tonight or early tomorrow.StephenB
July 24, 2013
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Mung, if you have time, I would like to revisit this notion of a single false premise and you are just the person to discuss it with. It is evident to me that a false premise and a true premise or a false premise and a false premise can produce a true conclusion. We (my critics and me) all seem to agree on that. However, it also seemed to me that a single false premise would, if reasoned from properly, lead one farther and farther away from the truth. But Neil and Elizabeth seem to have found examples where a single false premise would lead to a true conclusion. You are good with puzzles, and you appear to have found a hole in their argument. How do you weigh in on the matter?StephenB
July 24, 2013
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Thanks computerist for the Sheldrake link! Always fun to see what he is into.bornagain77
July 24, 2013
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Neil Rickert:
I was born and grew up in Australia.
That was your doppelganger. Do you see now how a false premise can lead you so far astray of the truth? wallstreeter43, I love Peter Kreeft's books.Mung
July 24, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle:
Premise: All cats have tails (False)
Premise: All cats have tails (True) All cats do have tails. Some cats may not have their tail attached to their body though.Mung
July 24, 2013
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Rupert Sheldrake interview: Link To Youtube Videocomputerist
July 24, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle:
That seems like sound reasoning based on a false premise leading to a true conclusion. No?
*sigh* Why do you even bother, SB? Anyways, we appreciate the effort!Mung
July 24, 2013
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SB:
Wouldn’t it be easier to dispense with all this nonsense and simply acknowledge self-evident truths for what they are?
Sure. But then what would happen to sites like TSZ? Every truth is a nail in the coffin of skepticism.Mung
July 24, 2013
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MF
That is the whole meaning of “uncaused”. It is just that way.
Its called the indeterminacy or uncertainty principle not the "uncaused" principle. To say we don't know and are uncertain is not to say therefore it is uncaused. I think it is interesting to see how this thread has gravitated toward entertaining the possibility that things can pop into existence from nothing. I actually think that this is the root "cause" ( no pun intended) of the idea that absolute certainty is unattainable. I continue to assert that I am absolutely certain that I think I think I am typing this, I am absolutely certain that cognitive activity is present. If cognitive activity is not present, if there is not something existing what is the alternative? Nothing. Vividvividbleau
July 24, 2013
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Mr. Frank, One quick point I will bring out as to entropic randomness of the universe as it is differentiated from the randomness associated with the free will in quantum mechanics Quantum Zeno effect Excerpt: The quantum Zeno effect is,,, an unstable particle, if observed continuously, will never decay. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/tonights-feature-presentation-epigenetics-the-next-evolutionary-cliff/#comment-445840 But why should the random entropic events of this universe care if and when I decide to observe a particle if, as Darwinists hold, I, and all the rest of life on earth, is suppose to be the result of the random entropic events of the universe in the first place? The atheists simply has no coherent answer as to why consciously gazing upon a particle should prevent its 'random' decay from ever happening.bornagain77
July 24, 2013
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The denizens of TSZ don't know how to reason- all they do is erect strawman after strawman, tear them down and act all proud of themselves. Their drivel wrt a common design is most hilarious- it's as if they have never designed anything in their lives which required them to adhere to existing standards. Linnean taxonomy is based on a common design. All evos did was steal his concept and change archetype with common ancestor. As I said, they cannot reason so this thread is another waste of time.Joe
July 24, 2013
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The quantum physicists that you have in mind do not “assume” that things come into existence without a cause. They claim to CONCLUDE from evidence that things can come into existence without a cause, contradicting the scientific assumption that nothing comes into existence without a cause.
I agree, Stephen, but I think that's exactly the point Mark and I are making - that physicist haven't imposed an a priori assumption on their data, but conclude it from the data. Prior to these discoveries, there was a general assumption that science would drill down until it found some fundamental law that explained everything (except itself of course :). Famously Einstein couldn't accept that rather than solid necessity at the bottom, there were events that were only predictable in aggregate, statistically - not individually. We simply cannot tell from one click of a Geiger counter how likely the next one is to occur. They aren't even like buses, where a long wait will tend to be followed by three at once.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 24, 2013
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