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When Can a Child Understand an Issue More Clearly Than Two Ph.Ds Combined? When a Shibboleth of NDE is at Stake.

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The basic idea of irreducible complexity developed by Michael Behe is simple and elegant.  Dr. Behe posits that a biological system such as the iconic bacterial flagellum (UD’s mascot – see the picture at the top of our homepage) is irreducibly complex if each part of the system is indispensable to function.  In other words, if one removes any part of an irreducibly complex system, one winds up not with degraded function but with no function at all.

This idea is important to the debate over Neo-Darwinian Evolution (NDE), because NDE is grounded absolutely in the notion that every complex biological system evolved from a simpler precursor in a stepwise fashion in which each step provided a net fitness gain.

It is obvious that an irreducibly complex system cannot have evolved in a stepwise fashion for the simple reason that all of the parts must be in place at once for there to be function.  By definition, you can’t add the parts one after the other in a stepwise fashion and have function at each step of the process.

An automobile engine is an example of a system with an irreducibly complex core.  There are hundreds of parts in an engine, some of which are part of the irreducibly complex core and some of which are not.  For example, the bolt holding the battery in place is NOT part of the core.  We can remove that bolt, and the battery will flop around, but the car will still run.  The battery itself, on the other hand, is part of the irreducibly complex core.  As anyone who has ever turned the key on a car with a dead battery knows, no battery equals zero function.

Irreducible complexity poses a serious problem for NDE, which various NDE researchers have attempted to meet (so far unsuccessfully).  The latest attempt to address this conundrum comes from Kelly Hughes and David Blair of the University of Utah, two of the world’s leading experts on bacterial flagellar assembly, in chapter 38 of the new book Microbes and Evolution:  The World that Darwin Never Saw.  They write:

It is clear that the flagellum is a complex structure and that its assembly and operation depend upon many interdependent components and processes. This complexity has been suggested to pose problems for the theory of evolution; specifically, it has been suggested that the ancestral flagellum could not have provided a significant advantage unless all of the parts were generated simultaneously. Hence, the flagellum has been described as “irreducibly complex,” implying that it is impossible or at least very difficult to envision a much simpler, but still useful, ancestral form that would have been the raw material for evolution.

Our JonathanM has a detailed review over at Evolution News and Views.  Hughes’ and Blair’s essential idea is that the bacterial flagellum is not irreducibly complex because sub-components within the flagellar structure are homologous to other bacterial organelles.  In other words, some of the components of the flagellum can be found in other molecular structures.  For example, as JonathanM points out in his review, they correctly point out that the stator proteins MotA and MotB are homologs of ExbB and ExbD, which form part of the TonB-dependent active transport system.

Let’s explore this argument in the context of a vehicle engine.  Just as with the flagellum an engine has parts that are, in a sense, homologous with parts in other kinds of machines.  Examples abound.  An engine has nuts, bolts, a battery, belts, wires, pistons, reservoirs for various fluids.  All of these components can be found in other types of machines.  Therefore, according to Hughes’ and Blair’s analysis, an engine is not irreducibly complex.

You will say that conclusion is not only wrong, it is laughable, and you will be right.  It is glaringly obvious to even the most casual observer that the mere existence of an irreducibly complex system’s parts is a necessary – but far from sufficient – condition for the system’s function.  Suppose I have every single component of an engine in my garage.  Do I have a functioning engine?  Of course not.  Suppose further that I take all of those components and put them in a big bag and shake them up.  Do I have an engine now?  Of course not.  Even a child would understand that having the parts is not enough even if all of the parts are in the same place at the same time.

Function requires simultaneous coordination of the parts.  Certainly simultaneous coordination can be achieved in a stepwise fashion.  Indeed, it is hard to imagine it being achieved any other way.  There is no way to build an engine such that all of the parts come together in an instant.  The mechanic starts with the block and inserts the pistons and attaches the rods and so on and so on until the engine is built and functions.  Notice, however, that each step does not give the engine “a little more function.”  Each individual step gives the engine no function at all.  There is function only when all of the steps are completed.

The distinction between merely “stepwise” and “stepwise with each step improving function” is vital.  A mechanic is an intelligent agent.  When he builds an engine he has a distant goal in mind (a functioning engine), and he achieves that goal one step at a time.  It makes no difference to him whether he gets a little bit of improved function at each step.  Indeed, if there are 500 steps, he is content with zero function for steps 1 through 499.  NDE cannot build an engine that way.  By definition there must be a net gain in function for steps 1 through 499. Why?  Because natural selection “selects” a new trait for one and only one reason – the new trait increases the fitness of the organism.  Therefore, if the new trait does not increase the fitness of the organism there is nothing there that natural selection can select for.

In summary, as I mentioned above, any child can see that the idea of irreducible complexity is not defeated by the mere existence of the parts of the system.  Why can’t these highly educated biologists see what any child can see?  Because they are blinded by their metaphysical suppositions.  To them, the bacterial flagellum just had to evolve in a stepwise fashion.  It is quite literally unthinkable for it to have come about any other way.  And if it had to have happened that way, then any explanation for how it happened that way is sufficient, even if the explanation is patently absurd.

 

UPDATE

In the first comment in the combox we get this from Neil Rickert:

The battery itself, on the other hand, is part of the irreducibly complex core. Anyone who has ever turned the key on a car with a dead battery knows, no battery equals zero function.

Early automobiles did not have a battery. They were started with a crank. The battery was added later, to allow electrical starting. But the crank remained, and buyers insisted on having it. So, even then, the automobile could be started using the crank and without a battery.

Later, after the electrical starter had proved itself successful, automobiles were built without a crank.

So here, in your own example, we have a system with an appearance of irreducible complexity, yet whose development history was one of stepwise change

Here’s my response:

The fact that an engine designed to start without a battery can get along without a battery has no bearing on whether an engine designed to start with a battery can get along without a battery.

As Joe and BA point out (and as I explained in the OP), both systems were designed.  A designer can design a system to accomplish the same thing in various ways.  (piston/rotary or battery start/crank start).  This says nothing about whether NDE can build an IR system in a stepwise fashion.

You have committed what Phil Johnson calls “Berra’s blunder,” i.e., using an example that is obviously the product of intelligent agency to attempt to make a point about a non-intelligent process.

Berra’s Blunder:

If you compare a 1953 and a 1954 Corvette, side by side, then a 1954 and a 1955 model, and so on, the descent with modification is overwhelmingly obvious. This is what paleontologists do with fossils, and the evidence is so solid and comprehensive that it cannot be denied by reasonable people…

The point is that the Corvette evolved through a selection process acting on variations that resulted in a series of transitional forms and an endpoint rather distinct from the starting point. A similar process shapes the evolution of organisms.

Tim Berra, Evolution and the Myth of Creationism, 1990, pg 117-119

Phil Johnson:

Of course, every one of those Corvettes was designed by engineers. The Corvette sequence — like the sequence of Beethoven’s symphonies to the opinions of the United States Supreme Court — does not illustrate naturalistic evolution at all. It illustrates how intelligent designers will typically achieve their purposes by adding variations to a basic design plan. Above all, such sequences have no tendency whatever to support the claim that there is no need for a creator, since blind natural forces can do the creating. On the contrary, they show that what biologists present as proof of “evolution” or “common ancestry” is just as likely to be evidence of common design.

Phillip Johnson, Defeating Darwinism by Opening Minds, 1997, pg 63.

Even a moment’s reflection would suffice to make it clear that the “crank to battery/crank to battery only” analogy does not address the argument of the OP.  But Mr. Rickert did not take a moment to reflect, because he, like the two Ph.Ds referred to in the OP, has ideological blinders on.  These blinders cause him to make analogies that even a child could see have no bearing whatsoever on whether NDE – as opposed to an intelligent agent – can build an irreducibly complex system.  Thank you, Mr. Rickert, for illustrating the point of the OP so beautifully.

Comments
RE: my #102 on Run and Tumble, JonathanM's EnV article about chemotaxis The chemotaxis videoChance Ratcliff
May 4, 2013
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Run and Tumble - JonathanM has an article up on EnV highlighting chemotaxis function in e.coli with a video presentation. It's just run and tumble all the way down. :PChance Ratcliff
May 4, 2013
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Alan Fox:
It has three responses. Do nothing, run or tumble. There is no directional response. No steering. No control. It can remain going with the flow, it can swim in the direction it is pointing or it can reorient itself (tumble) so that it can then swim in (most likely) a different direction.
Of course there is control. At a minimum there has to be controls between those three states.Joe
March 15, 2013
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Bruce David:
...I knew that there had to be some kind of sensing mechanism that would indicate to the bacterium in which direction it would be beneficial to move linked some kind of control so that the flagellum could be utilized to propel it in that direction. Otherwise, the flagellum would be totally useless to the organism.
The E. coli bacterium feeds by absorbing nutrients such as sugars from the human gut where it lives. It seems reasonable that being able to maintain itself in an optimum position in the gut, where the constant flow from mouth to anus would otherwise tend to eliminate it, is advantageous. For the "run and tumble" system to work, all the data the bacterium needs is the change in nutrient level, whether it is rising or falling. It has three responses. Do nothing, run or tumble. There is no directional response. No steering. No control. It can remain going with the flow, it can swim in the direction it is pointing or it can reorient itself (tumble) so that it can then swim in (most likely) a different direction.Alan Fox
March 15, 2013
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William J Murray, I just quoted post 85 in an on-going debate about evolution elsewhere: it's a cracker, thank-you! Evolution: falsied time and again. At least it would be if it wasn't non-falsifiable!Chris Doyle
March 15, 2013
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No, guys, Chance is right. Never fear, Horizontal Gene Transfer is here! As any fule kno, you don't have to write a research paper by typing it all in yourself, you can just copy and paste!englishmaninistanbul
March 14, 2013
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Joe, Darwinism "explains" other stuff, therefore it is the best explanation for the arrival of sexual reproduction.Mung
March 13, 2013
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Someone should start a new thread: The Rash of Sarcasm.Mung
March 13, 2013
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We don't have an explanation for it, therefore the "pink unicorn of hypleadies" is the best explanation.Mung
March 13, 2013
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Daniel King:
What explains it?
Only something with planning, forethought and purpose. Planning and forethought because you would know that if you just keep doubling the number of chromosomes, that the cell wouldn't be viable after a few generations as the nucleus would be too big and "explode". Therefor you would need to have the process of reducing the number of chromosomes that each parent passes down. That process, which darwinism cannot explain (it just happened isn't an explanation), is meiosis. Planning, forethought and purpose because you would need to package all of the non-material information into one cell such that it will create the same type of organism that the parents were, AND you would need the material hardware to carry that out.Joe
March 13, 2013
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OldArmy94:
Couldn’t one argue that sexuality/gender is an irreducibly complex structure?
This is an interesting idea. I cannot think of any reason why not. If you remove one part the system doesn't function. -- WJM, thanks for that linkBox
March 13, 2013
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Hi,Joe, You said, “…darwinism cannot explain sexual reproduction.” What explains it?
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaaVbWD3USI" Sexual Reproduction Explained Sexual Reproduction Explained.William J Murray
March 13, 2013
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Hi,Joe, You said, "...darwinism cannot explain sexual reproduction." What explains it?Daniel King
March 13, 2013
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OldArmy94:
But, as a sidenote to this conversation, isn’t irreducible complexity a phenomenon that occurs at more than the molecular level?
Yes. And true, darwinism cannot explain sexual reproduction.Joe
March 13, 2013
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I am no biologist and rarely comment here; I prefer to read and be enlightened, informed and challenged in my thinking. But, as a sidenote to this conversation, isn't irreducible complexity a phenomenon that occurs at more than the molecular level? Couldn't one argue that sexuality/gender is an irreducibly complex structure? I know that Darwinists have "just so" stories for the emergence of sex, but from a realistic, empirical standpoint, doesn't it stand to reason that it is better explained by ID? Just my two cents!OldArmy94
March 13, 2013
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WJM:
Biological divergence? Evolution. Biological convergence? Evolution. Gradual variation? Evolution. Sudden variation? Evolution. Stasis? Evolution. Junk DNA? Evolution. No Junk DNA? Evolution. Tree of life? Evolution. No tree of life? Evolution. Common genes? Evolution. Orfan genes? evolution. Cell with little more than a jelly-like protoplasm? Evolution. Cell filled with countless, highly-specified nano-machines directed by a software code? Evolution. More hardy, more procreative organisms? Evolution. Less hardy, less procreative organisms? Evolution.
Brilliant! If I may add to the list: Astonishingly complex, optimal and beautiful design: Evolution Alleged erroneous and dumb design: Evolution.steveO
March 13, 2013
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TJ, I'm fairly certain Chance was being facetious. Having a little fun.Upright BiPed
March 13, 2013
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Chance my man, I give you the Most Faithful Darwinist of the Year award! You are amazing! "Look here, there are no irreducibly complex biological systems; besides, Darwinian evolution is perfectly capable of building them." If you could actually prove all your bold claims, that would be something! Good luck!tjguy
March 13, 2013
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Who would have thought that it would be biologists that came up with the first Theory of Everything? Biological divergence? Evolution. Biological convergence? Evolution. Gradual variation? Evolution. Sudden variation? Evolution. Stasis? Evolution. Junk DNA? Evolution. No Junk DNA? Evolution. Tree of life? Evolution. No tree of life? Evolution. Common genes? Evolution. Orfan genes? evolution. Cell with little more than a jelly-like protoplasm? Evolution. Cell filled with countless, highly-specified nano-machines directed by a software code? Evolution. More hardy, more procreative organisms? Evolution. Less hardy, less procreative organisms? Evolution. Evolution explains everything.William J Murray
March 12, 2013
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edit: ...that have appeared since the species last supposed divergence from the last common ancestor of an extant sister group."lifepsy
March 12, 2013
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JLAfan2001
1) How did this effect the science of population genetics? If we found all these ORFan genes at the individual level, does that mean that there would have to a new evaluation?
Well it just makes the neo-darwinian model more ridiculous than it already is. It has always been described as a very gradual process that builds complex structures by tiny, individually beneficial increments. Orphan genes present a picture of entire functional genes, appearing rapidly, so rapidly that they leave no trace of ancestry behind them. Orphans on average make up 20% of genes in a species... so if you have, say, 20,000 protein-coding genes in species X, than that's 4,000 orphan genes, each thousands of base pairs in length, that have appeared since the species last supposed divergence from an extant sister group. This is a good overview article. New Scientist - Orphan Genes 2013 Helen Pilcher http://ccsb.dfci.harvard.edu/web/export/sites/default/ccsb/publications/papers/2013/All_alone_-_Helen_Pilcher_New_Scientist_Jan_2013.pdf How Can There Be Orphan Genes? 2012 Ken Weiss - Professor of Anthropology and Genetics http://molecularevolutionforum.blogspot.com/2012/05/how-can-there-be-orphan-genes.html It's one of those rare moments when evolutionists are candidly admitting neo-darwinism doesn't make any sense.. But ad-hoc, orphans are already being chalked up to a combination of gene duplication and frameshift fixation, de novo functionalization, horizontal gene transfer, 'rapid evolution', etc. Also, from the perspective of being a scientific theory, orphan genes really push the non-falsifiable nature of evolution into the spotlight. Darwinists are pretty much sending the message that no genetic discovery, no matter how shocking, could possibly overturn their hypothesis.
2) If this non-random process of creating new DNA is valid, doesn’t it refute the claim that natural evolution has never been shown to create new body plans? After all, isn’t the blueprints of new body plans found in the DNA and if new DNA can be created then so can new body plans? Am I off on this?
Well, as BA77 pointed out.. it's not really about finding evidence of rapidly introduced function. Evolutionists/Atheists need the individual changes to be random/blind. They can't have large amounts of function appearing *before* it did its hypothetical walk-about on the fitness landscape and became fixated by natural selection. That is basically antithesis to the whole theory of evolution. Anyways, those are some of my thoughts on the subject... Also of interest: ORFan Genes Challenge Common Descent - Paul Nelson http://vimeo.com/17132544lifepsy
March 12, 2013
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"Chance Ratcliff’s tongue is so intricately enmeshed into his cheek that a team of surgeons, headed by none other than Dr. Ben Carson..."
Can you please find someone who is not a creationist please? I want my surgeon to be thinking about Science, not irreducible complexity.Chance Ratcliff
March 12, 2013
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Press Release: Chance Ratcliff's tongue is so intricately enmeshed into his cheek that a team of surgeons, headed by none other than Dr. Ben Carson, has been assembled to effect a separation. The procedure is anticipated to take more than 18 hours. Success is estimated to be less than 75%. Your thoughts and prayers are much appreciated.sterusjon
March 12, 2013
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Eric Anderson,
"What I am now seeing regularly, and what we have seen often in recent threads here, is an effort to avoid the irreducible complexity issue altogether by arguing that there is no need for a step-by-step process. Indeed, many opponents of design now argue that stuff just accumulates until one day it comes together to form a useful whole. Nevermind that this is even more preposterous than the long chain of step-by-step beneficial changes, it is a very common approach that attempts to dismiss the challenge of irreducible complexity."
That's not how evolution works. It works by-- Well if you don't know I'm not going to tell you. Obviously you don't understand, or you would believe it. I'm not going to do your homework for you, look it up. Link about evolution The information is out there if you creationists would just bother looking for yourself. How many scientific articles mention evolution, and how many mention god? This point was brilliantly driven home by William J. Murray above. I'm sick of this thread. I'm going back to youtube where the real debate is happening.Chance Ratcliff
March 12, 2013
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Bruce David,
"You have the burden of proof on the wrong shoulders. It is the Darwinists who claim that the neo-Darwinian synthesis has been established, even that it is a “fact”. It is they who need to show how a bacterial flagellum (and other such complex systems) could have arisen by step by step Darwinian processes, including specific mutations with a calculation that they could have arisen within the probabilistic resources avaialable and a demonstration that each such mutation improved organismal fitness. Absent such a demonstration, Darwinism is no better than mere speculation. To my knowledge, so far no one has come close to such a demonstration."
Look, if I were the one telling you that some mysterious, obscure, unknown force can build numerous complex and intricate designs exhibiting technological sophistication on a nano-miniature scale, then maybe I would have the burden of proof; but since I'm not, you have it.Chance Ratcliff
March 12, 2013
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"“Run and tumble” is all that is needed."
Exactly. It's random and unguided all the way down, from the random association of atoms into molecules, through the random assembly of molecules into proteins, to the random assemblage of proteins into clumps of proteins. No guidance is needed for any of this, and it's obvious from "run and tumble" that the sensory control mechanisms are random also. Get a clue, creationists. Look at one of those "artificial intelligence" robots that run around and bump off of walls. How smart do they really look? Sheesh. It's like saying that my Roomba is a product of intelligent design, when it barely does better than a bacterium. I'd like to see how well they do against a unicycle in the quarter mile. You know, chance assemblage of supposedly complex structures may be just about the most ridiculous idea on the face of the planet, but at least it's not as stupid as pink unicorns or flying spaghetti monsters. You guys are a joke. Think about it, how much sophistication is really needed to implement "run and tumble"? That's only two things: run, and tumble. Is that supposed to be irreducibly complex, creationists? First there is "run" then just add "tumble". It would be one thing if Darwinism had a lot of explaining to do, but as we can see from Alan's example, it sure doesn't have to explain much does it?Chance Ratcliff
March 12, 2013
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Alan Fox, master of the citation bluff, Scores! Again, it is a point for his opponents! Way to go, Alan! Keep up the good work!sterusjon
March 12, 2013
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Addition to 75: My point is that any Darwinian explanation of the emergence of the flagellum has to include an explanation of how the sensing and control mechanisms became available at the same time and in the same organism as the flagellum did. Otherwise, the existence of the flagellum would contribute a negative fitness to the cell due to energy being diverted to the construction and maintenance of a useless structure.Bruce David
March 12, 2013
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Alan Fox, re. 74:
This means that in addition to the flagellum itself, there need to be control mechanisms and sensing mechanisms present also.
“Run and tumble” is all that is needed. No steering and no planning. But it works! Animation here.
In the text that accompanies the animation, the following two sentences appear: "The runs tend to be longer when the cell senses an increase in the chemoattractant" and "When moving away from the attractant the tumbles become more frequent." This is exactly what I was referring to. The "sensing mechanism" is the cell's ability to sense "an increase [or decrease] in the chemoattractant", and the control mechanism is the ability to link the sensing of these into clockwise or counterclockwise rotation of the flagellum. I didn't know how precisely it worked (thank you for the link, by the way), but I knew that there had to be some kind of sensing mechanism that would indicate to the bacterium in which direction it would be beneficial to move linked some kind of control so that the flagellum could be utilized to propel it in that direction. Otherwise, the flagellum would be totally useless to the organism.Bruce David
March 12, 2013
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Bruce David:
This means that in addition to the flagellum itself, there need to be control mechanisms and sensing mechanisms present also.
"Run and tumble" is all that is needed. No steering and no planning. But it works! Animation here.Alan Fox
March 12, 2013
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