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When Can a Child Understand an Issue More Clearly Than Two Ph.Ds Combined? When a Shibboleth of NDE is at Stake.

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The basic idea of irreducible complexity developed by Michael Behe is simple and elegant.  Dr. Behe posits that a biological system such as the iconic bacterial flagellum (UD’s mascot – see the picture at the top of our homepage) is irreducibly complex if each part of the system is indispensable to function.  In other words, if one removes any part of an irreducibly complex system, one winds up not with degraded function but with no function at all.

This idea is important to the debate over Neo-Darwinian Evolution (NDE), because NDE is grounded absolutely in the notion that every complex biological system evolved from a simpler precursor in a stepwise fashion in which each step provided a net fitness gain.

It is obvious that an irreducibly complex system cannot have evolved in a stepwise fashion for the simple reason that all of the parts must be in place at once for there to be function.  By definition, you can’t add the parts one after the other in a stepwise fashion and have function at each step of the process.

An automobile engine is an example of a system with an irreducibly complex core.  There are hundreds of parts in an engine, some of which are part of the irreducibly complex core and some of which are not.  For example, the bolt holding the battery in place is NOT part of the core.  We can remove that bolt, and the battery will flop around, but the car will still run.  The battery itself, on the other hand, is part of the irreducibly complex core.  As anyone who has ever turned the key on a car with a dead battery knows, no battery equals zero function.

Irreducible complexity poses a serious problem for NDE, which various NDE researchers have attempted to meet (so far unsuccessfully).  The latest attempt to address this conundrum comes from Kelly Hughes and David Blair of the University of Utah, two of the world’s leading experts on bacterial flagellar assembly, in chapter 38 of the new book Microbes and Evolution:  The World that Darwin Never Saw.  They write:

It is clear that the flagellum is a complex structure and that its assembly and operation depend upon many interdependent components and processes. This complexity has been suggested to pose problems for the theory of evolution; specifically, it has been suggested that the ancestral flagellum could not have provided a significant advantage unless all of the parts were generated simultaneously. Hence, the flagellum has been described as “irreducibly complex,” implying that it is impossible or at least very difficult to envision a much simpler, but still useful, ancestral form that would have been the raw material for evolution.

Our JonathanM has a detailed review over at Evolution News and Views.  Hughes’ and Blair’s essential idea is that the bacterial flagellum is not irreducibly complex because sub-components within the flagellar structure are homologous to other bacterial organelles.  In other words, some of the components of the flagellum can be found in other molecular structures.  For example, as JonathanM points out in his review, they correctly point out that the stator proteins MotA and MotB are homologs of ExbB and ExbD, which form part of the TonB-dependent active transport system.

Let’s explore this argument in the context of a vehicle engine.  Just as with the flagellum an engine has parts that are, in a sense, homologous with parts in other kinds of machines.  Examples abound.  An engine has nuts, bolts, a battery, belts, wires, pistons, reservoirs for various fluids.  All of these components can be found in other types of machines.  Therefore, according to Hughes’ and Blair’s analysis, an engine is not irreducibly complex.

You will say that conclusion is not only wrong, it is laughable, and you will be right.  It is glaringly obvious to even the most casual observer that the mere existence of an irreducibly complex system’s parts is a necessary – but far from sufficient – condition for the system’s function.  Suppose I have every single component of an engine in my garage.  Do I have a functioning engine?  Of course not.  Suppose further that I take all of those components and put them in a big bag and shake them up.  Do I have an engine now?  Of course not.  Even a child would understand that having the parts is not enough even if all of the parts are in the same place at the same time.

Function requires simultaneous coordination of the parts.  Certainly simultaneous coordination can be achieved in a stepwise fashion.  Indeed, it is hard to imagine it being achieved any other way.  There is no way to build an engine such that all of the parts come together in an instant.  The mechanic starts with the block and inserts the pistons and attaches the rods and so on and so on until the engine is built and functions.  Notice, however, that each step does not give the engine “a little more function.”  Each individual step gives the engine no function at all.  There is function only when all of the steps are completed.

The distinction between merely “stepwise” and “stepwise with each step improving function” is vital.  A mechanic is an intelligent agent.  When he builds an engine he has a distant goal in mind (a functioning engine), and he achieves that goal one step at a time.  It makes no difference to him whether he gets a little bit of improved function at each step.  Indeed, if there are 500 steps, he is content with zero function for steps 1 through 499.  NDE cannot build an engine that way.  By definition there must be a net gain in function for steps 1 through 499. Why?  Because natural selection “selects” a new trait for one and only one reason – the new trait increases the fitness of the organism.  Therefore, if the new trait does not increase the fitness of the organism there is nothing there that natural selection can select for.

In summary, as I mentioned above, any child can see that the idea of irreducible complexity is not defeated by the mere existence of the parts of the system.  Why can’t these highly educated biologists see what any child can see?  Because they are blinded by their metaphysical suppositions.  To them, the bacterial flagellum just had to evolve in a stepwise fashion.  It is quite literally unthinkable for it to have come about any other way.  And if it had to have happened that way, then any explanation for how it happened that way is sufficient, even if the explanation is patently absurd.

 

UPDATE

In the first comment in the combox we get this from Neil Rickert:

The battery itself, on the other hand, is part of the irreducibly complex core. Anyone who has ever turned the key on a car with a dead battery knows, no battery equals zero function.

Early automobiles did not have a battery. They were started with a crank. The battery was added later, to allow electrical starting. But the crank remained, and buyers insisted on having it. So, even then, the automobile could be started using the crank and without a battery.

Later, after the electrical starter had proved itself successful, automobiles were built without a crank.

So here, in your own example, we have a system with an appearance of irreducible complexity, yet whose development history was one of stepwise change

Here’s my response:

The fact that an engine designed to start without a battery can get along without a battery has no bearing on whether an engine designed to start with a battery can get along without a battery.

As Joe and BA point out (and as I explained in the OP), both systems were designed.  A designer can design a system to accomplish the same thing in various ways.  (piston/rotary or battery start/crank start).  This says nothing about whether NDE can build an IR system in a stepwise fashion.

You have committed what Phil Johnson calls “Berra’s blunder,” i.e., using an example that is obviously the product of intelligent agency to attempt to make a point about a non-intelligent process.

Berra’s Blunder:

If you compare a 1953 and a 1954 Corvette, side by side, then a 1954 and a 1955 model, and so on, the descent with modification is overwhelmingly obvious. This is what paleontologists do with fossils, and the evidence is so solid and comprehensive that it cannot be denied by reasonable people…

The point is that the Corvette evolved through a selection process acting on variations that resulted in a series of transitional forms and an endpoint rather distinct from the starting point. A similar process shapes the evolution of organisms.

Tim Berra, Evolution and the Myth of Creationism, 1990, pg 117-119

Phil Johnson:

Of course, every one of those Corvettes was designed by engineers. The Corvette sequence — like the sequence of Beethoven’s symphonies to the opinions of the United States Supreme Court — does not illustrate naturalistic evolution at all. It illustrates how intelligent designers will typically achieve their purposes by adding variations to a basic design plan. Above all, such sequences have no tendency whatever to support the claim that there is no need for a creator, since blind natural forces can do the creating. On the contrary, they show that what biologists present as proof of “evolution” or “common ancestry” is just as likely to be evidence of common design.

Phillip Johnson, Defeating Darwinism by Opening Minds, 1997, pg 63.

Even a moment’s reflection would suffice to make it clear that the “crank to battery/crank to battery only” analogy does not address the argument of the OP.  But Mr. Rickert did not take a moment to reflect, because he, like the two Ph.Ds referred to in the OP, has ideological blinders on.  These blinders cause him to make analogies that even a child could see have no bearing whatsoever on whether NDE – as opposed to an intelligent agent – can build an irreducibly complex system.  Thank you, Mr. Rickert, for illustrating the point of the OP so beautifully.

Comments
Eric, Indeed. There seems to be no limit to the absurdities that committed materialists will employ in their frenetic efforts to prop up their bankrupt worldview. Your example is anticipated in the OP where I say that even if the mechanic has all of the parts of the engine and puts them in a bag and shakes them up, he will not get function. Yes, the parts are necessary. But the parts are not sufficient. The coordinated arrangement of the parts into a unified whole is also necessary. No known natural process is even remotely capable of the latter, and appeals to random change such as those to which you allude are nothing more than a crude chance-if-the gaps argument.Barry Arrington
March 11, 2013
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Barry, that was an excellent post, simply but vividly illustrated: thank you very much. Straight from the middle chamber of KST! Our opponents - people who believe everything made itself by accident, denying the existence of free-will and objective morality while they're at it - will never really understand your post. Why? Because it uses only flawless reasoning and compelling evidence. That's no good to people who have fortified themselves against us with emotion and other personal issues. But, to those of us who will follow the evidence wherever it lead and who have fully studied both sides of the argument, your post throws down a gauntlet that demands a proper response. I'll keep an eye out for one, but won't hold my breath.Chris Doyle
March 11, 2013
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As to
Even a child would understand,,
Or put another way
Walt Whitman (1819–1892). Leaves of Grass. - When I heard the Learn’d Astronomer WHEN I heard the learn’d astronomer; When the proofs, the figures, were ranged in columns before me; When I was shown the charts and the diagrams, to add, divide, and measure them; When I, sitting, heard the astronomer, where he lectured with much applause in the lecture-room, How soon, unaccountable, I became tired and sick; Till rising and gliding out, I wander’d off by myself, In the mystical moist night-air, and from time to time, Look’d up in perfect silence at the stars.
And to glimpse that 'mystical world' of the bacterial flagellum,, Last 30 seconds of this following video has a excellent animation of the flagella in action:
Animations from E O Wilson's Lord of the Ants documentary http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hX2e0il1qpg Bacterial Flagellum: Visualizing the Complete Machine In Situ Excerpt: Electron tomography of frozen-hydrated bacteria, combined with single particle averaging, has produced stunning images of the intact bacterial flagellum, revealing features of the rotor, stator and export apparatus. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096098220602286X Electron Microscope Photograph of Flagellum Hook-Basal Body http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/08-08-20images/figure03.jpg Bacterial Nanomachines: The Flagellum and Type III Injectisome - 2010 Excerpt: Here, we discuss the significant progress that has been made in recent years in the visualization and functional characterization of many components of the type III secretion system, the structure of the bacterial flagellum, and the injectisome complex. http://cshperspectives.cshlp.org/content/2/11/a000299.full Bacterial Flagellum - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey7Emmddf7Y Bacterial Flagellum - A Sheer Wonder Of Intelligent Design - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3994630
Here is a interesting quote:
Since the flagellum is so well designed and beautifully constructed by an ordered assembly pathway, even I, who am not a creationist, get an awe-inspiring feeling from its 'divine' beauty.,, if the flagellum evolved from a primitive form, ...where are the remnants of its ancestor? Why don't we see any intermediate or simpler forms of flagella than what they are today? How was it possible that the flagella have evolved without leaving traces in history? - Shin-Ichi Aizawa - What Is Essential for Flagella Assembly? - 2009 - Pili and Flagella - Chpt. 6 The Molecular Flagellar Clutch of Bacillus Subtilis - Jonathan M. May 3, 2012 Excerpt: The flagellum is one of nature's smallest and most powerful motors -- ones like those produced by B. subtilis can rotate more than 200 times per second, driven by 1400 piconewton-nms of torque. That's a lot of horsepower for a machine only a few nms wide. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/05/the_molecular_f059121.html Biologist Howard Berg at Harvard calls the Bacterial Flagellum “the most efficient machine in the universe." Souped-Up Hyper-Drive Flagellum Discovered - December 3, 2012 Excerpt: Get a load of this -- a bacterium that packs a gear-driven, seven-engine, magnetic-guided flagellar bundle that gets 0 to 300 micrometers in one second, ten times faster than E. coli. If you thought the standard bacterial flagellum made the case for intelligent design, wait till you hear the specs on MO-1,,, Harvard's mastermind of flagellum reverse engineering, this paper describes the Ferrari of flagella. "Instead of being a simple helically wound propeller driven by a rotary motor, it is a complex organelle consisting of 7 flagella and 24 fibrils that form a tight bundle enveloped by a glycoprotein sheath.... the flagella of MO-1 must rotate individually, and yet the entire bundle functions as a unit to comprise a motility organelle." To feel the Wow! factor, jump ahead to Figure 6 in the paper. It shows seven engines in one, arranged in a hexagonal array, stylized by the authors in a cross-sectional model that shows them all as gears interacting with 24 smaller gears between them. The flagella rotate one way, and the smaller gears rotate the opposite way to maximize torque while minimizing friction. Download the movie from the Supplemental Information page to see the gears in action. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/12/souped-up_flage066921.html The Bacterial Flagellum: A Paradigm for Design - Jonathan M. - Sept. 2012 Excerpt: Indeed, so striking is the appearance of intelligent design that researchers have modelled the assembly process (of the bacterial flagellum) in view of finding inspiration for enhancing industrial operations (McAuley et al.). Not only does the flagellum manifestly exhibit engineering principles, but the engineering involved is far superior to humanity’s best achievements. The flagellum exhibits irreducible complexity in spades. In all of our experience of cause-and-effect, we know that phenomena of this kind are uniformly associated with only one type of cause – one category of explanation – and that is intelligent mind. Intelligent design succeeds at precisely the point at which evolutionary explanations break down. http://www.scribd.com/doc/106728402/The-Bacterial-Flagellum
bornagain77
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GEM and WJM: Agreed. In my update in response to Neil’s comment I say that it took a “moment’s reflection” to see that his response was way off base. And that’s the problem. Too many people are willing to take Berra’s blunder or Neil’s nonsense at face value without reflecting on it. It takes 30 seconds of thought to see though to the other side. But thinking is hard and 30 seconds is a long time. If all I am interested in is reinforcing the conclusions compelled by my pre-existing metaphysical commitments, I am not willing to do the work or spend the time. Therein lies a cautionary tale for us all. I presume that Berra is neither stupid nor evil. I presume the same thing about Neil. Intelligent, articulate people on the other side of the argument sometimes say foolish things because they are prodded along by their metaphysical commitments. Are we on this side of the ID argument exempt from that phenomenon? No. Let’s not get lazy and say foolish things in support of ID. And if we do, let us hope that one of our Darwinist friends is there to slap us around a little.Barry Arrington
March 11, 2013
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Barry: Good post and some good points. One minor clarification, though:
This idea is important to the debate over Neo-Darwinian Evolution (NDE), because NDE is grounded absolutely in the notion that every complex biological system evolved from a simpler precursor in a stepwise fashion in which each step provided a net fitness gain.
While the concept of each step providing an advantage is consistent with Darwin's theory and has been an important part of the evolutionary storyline for a long time, more and more often I am seeing this abandoned by evolutionists, not across the board necessarily, but particularly when confronted with specific biological systems. What I am now seeing regularly, and what we have seen often in recent threads here, is an effort to avoid the irreducible complexity issue altogether by arguing that there is no need for a step-by-step process. Indeed, many opponents of design now argue that stuff just accumulates until one day it comes together to form a useful whole. Nevermind that this is even more preposterous than the long chain of step-by-step beneficial changes, it is a very common approach that attempts to dismiss the challenge of irreducible complexity. The argument from irreducible complexity is still a very current and applicable argument and there is great value in keeping it at the forefront. We should be grateful that irreducible complexity has forced the committed materialists out of the shadows and into the light where we can see that as they abandon Darwin's reliance on slight, successive, beneficial changes, they are instead left to rely on pure chance and wildly-improbable fortuitous accumulations of unspecified stuff at unspecified times in unspecified ways. Stuff Happens.Eric Anderson
March 11, 2013
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WJM: I hope you are wrong, but fear that -- far too often -- you are right. KFkairosfocus
March 11, 2013
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Mr Arrington: I am more and more convinced that there is too often a want of genuine exchange of minds on design issues. I think a good place to begin is with Menuge's criteria C1 - 5 for IC systems, clipping from the ID foundations series no 3, two years ago:
For a working [bacterial] flagellum to be built by exaptation, the five following conditions would all have to be met: C1: Availability. Among the parts available for recruitment to form the flagellum, there would need to be ones capable of performing the highly specialized tasks of paddle, rotor, and motor, even though all of these items serve some other function or no function. C2: Synchronization. The availability of these parts would have to be synchronized so that at some point, either individually or in combination, they are all available at the same time. C3: Localization. The selected parts must all be made available at the same ‘construction site,’ perhaps not simultaneously but certainly at the time they are needed. C4: Coordination. The parts must be coordinated in just the right way: even if all of the parts of a flagellum are available at the right time, it is clear that the majority of ways of assembling them will be non-functional or irrelevant. C5: Interface compatibility. The parts must be mutually compatible, that is, ‘well-matched’ and capable of properly ‘interacting’: even if a paddle, rotor, and motor are put together in the right order, they also need to interface correctly. (Agents Under Fire: Materialism and the Rationality of Science, pgs. 104-105 (Rowman & Littlefield, 2004). HT: ENV.)
Let's see if there is an actual response on the merits. KFkairosfocus
March 11, 2013
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Irreducible complexity kills Darwinian evolution dead. In a sane word, IC would have ended the evolution debate a long time ago. DE would have been recognized for what it is, a false religion. This would have meant the end of the teaching of evolution in our schools but, unfortunately, we don't live in a sane world.Mapou
March 11, 2013
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Neil Rickert's response goes back to something I said in another thread - these guys aren't trying to understand the concept; they're just mechanically (or habitually) processing denials, diversions and dismissals, whether they are relevant or not, and whether they make any sense or not, in service of their ideological commitments.William J Murray
March 11, 2013
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I think the question is can you stepwise transition (via a blind undirected process) from a piston engine to a rotary engine or vice versa. And the obvious answer to this is that you can't. A piston engine is in its own IC domain. A rotary engine is in its own IC domain.computerist
March 11, 2013
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Neil Rickert:
Early automobiles did not have a battery.
So what? They needed something else that blind and undirected processs couldn't produce. IOW they were still IC.
So here, in your own example, we have a system with an appearance of irreducible complexity, yet whose development history was one of stepwise change.
By DESIGN. And it is IC. IC can be achieved by design.Joe
March 11, 2013
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And Mr. Rickert, was this 'stepwise change', from crank to battery, derived by improved human knowledge/intelligence or by neo-Darwinian processes?bornagain77
March 11, 2013
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The battery itself, on the other hand, is part of the irreducibly complex core. Anyone who has ever turned the key on a car with a dead battery knows, no battery equals zero function.
Early automobiles did not have a battery. They were started with a crank. The battery was added later, to allow electrical starting. But the crank remained, and buyers insisted on having it. So, even then, the automobile could be started using the crank and without a battery. Later, after the electrical starter had proved itself successful, automobiles were built without a crank. So here, in your own example, we have a system with an appearance of irreducible complexity, yet whose development history was one of stepwise change.Neil Rickert
March 11, 2013
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