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When Can a Child Understand an Issue More Clearly Than Two Ph.Ds Combined? When a Shibboleth of NDE is at Stake.

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The basic idea of irreducible complexity developed by Michael Behe is simple and elegant.  Dr. Behe posits that a biological system such as the iconic bacterial flagellum (UD’s mascot – see the picture at the top of our homepage) is irreducibly complex if each part of the system is indispensable to function.  In other words, if one removes any part of an irreducibly complex system, one winds up not with degraded function but with no function at all.

This idea is important to the debate over Neo-Darwinian Evolution (NDE), because NDE is grounded absolutely in the notion that every complex biological system evolved from a simpler precursor in a stepwise fashion in which each step provided a net fitness gain.

It is obvious that an irreducibly complex system cannot have evolved in a stepwise fashion for the simple reason that all of the parts must be in place at once for there to be function.  By definition, you can’t add the parts one after the other in a stepwise fashion and have function at each step of the process.

An automobile engine is an example of a system with an irreducibly complex core.  There are hundreds of parts in an engine, some of which are part of the irreducibly complex core and some of which are not.  For example, the bolt holding the battery in place is NOT part of the core.  We can remove that bolt, and the battery will flop around, but the car will still run.  The battery itself, on the other hand, is part of the irreducibly complex core.  As anyone who has ever turned the key on a car with a dead battery knows, no battery equals zero function.

Irreducible complexity poses a serious problem for NDE, which various NDE researchers have attempted to meet (so far unsuccessfully).  The latest attempt to address this conundrum comes from Kelly Hughes and David Blair of the University of Utah, two of the world’s leading experts on bacterial flagellar assembly, in chapter 38 of the new book Microbes and Evolution:  The World that Darwin Never Saw.  They write:

It is clear that the flagellum is a complex structure and that its assembly and operation depend upon many interdependent components and processes. This complexity has been suggested to pose problems for the theory of evolution; specifically, it has been suggested that the ancestral flagellum could not have provided a significant advantage unless all of the parts were generated simultaneously. Hence, the flagellum has been described as “irreducibly complex,” implying that it is impossible or at least very difficult to envision a much simpler, but still useful, ancestral form that would have been the raw material for evolution.

Our JonathanM has a detailed review over at Evolution News and Views.  Hughes’ and Blair’s essential idea is that the bacterial flagellum is not irreducibly complex because sub-components within the flagellar structure are homologous to other bacterial organelles.  In other words, some of the components of the flagellum can be found in other molecular structures.  For example, as JonathanM points out in his review, they correctly point out that the stator proteins MotA and MotB are homologs of ExbB and ExbD, which form part of the TonB-dependent active transport system.

Let’s explore this argument in the context of a vehicle engine.  Just as with the flagellum an engine has parts that are, in a sense, homologous with parts in other kinds of machines.  Examples abound.  An engine has nuts, bolts, a battery, belts, wires, pistons, reservoirs for various fluids.  All of these components can be found in other types of machines.  Therefore, according to Hughes’ and Blair’s analysis, an engine is not irreducibly complex.

You will say that conclusion is not only wrong, it is laughable, and you will be right.  It is glaringly obvious to even the most casual observer that the mere existence of an irreducibly complex system’s parts is a necessary – but far from sufficient – condition for the system’s function.  Suppose I have every single component of an engine in my garage.  Do I have a functioning engine?  Of course not.  Suppose further that I take all of those components and put them in a big bag and shake them up.  Do I have an engine now?  Of course not.  Even a child would understand that having the parts is not enough even if all of the parts are in the same place at the same time.

Function requires simultaneous coordination of the parts.  Certainly simultaneous coordination can be achieved in a stepwise fashion.  Indeed, it is hard to imagine it being achieved any other way.  There is no way to build an engine such that all of the parts come together in an instant.  The mechanic starts with the block and inserts the pistons and attaches the rods and so on and so on until the engine is built and functions.  Notice, however, that each step does not give the engine “a little more function.”  Each individual step gives the engine no function at all.  There is function only when all of the steps are completed.

The distinction between merely “stepwise” and “stepwise with each step improving function” is vital.  A mechanic is an intelligent agent.  When he builds an engine he has a distant goal in mind (a functioning engine), and he achieves that goal one step at a time.  It makes no difference to him whether he gets a little bit of improved function at each step.  Indeed, if there are 500 steps, he is content with zero function for steps 1 through 499.  NDE cannot build an engine that way.  By definition there must be a net gain in function for steps 1 through 499. Why?  Because natural selection “selects” a new trait for one and only one reason – the new trait increases the fitness of the organism.  Therefore, if the new trait does not increase the fitness of the organism there is nothing there that natural selection can select for.

In summary, as I mentioned above, any child can see that the idea of irreducible complexity is not defeated by the mere existence of the parts of the system.  Why can’t these highly educated biologists see what any child can see?  Because they are blinded by their metaphysical suppositions.  To them, the bacterial flagellum just had to evolve in a stepwise fashion.  It is quite literally unthinkable for it to have come about any other way.  And if it had to have happened that way, then any explanation for how it happened that way is sufficient, even if the explanation is patently absurd.

 

UPDATE

In the first comment in the combox we get this from Neil Rickert:

The battery itself, on the other hand, is part of the irreducibly complex core. Anyone who has ever turned the key on a car with a dead battery knows, no battery equals zero function.

Early automobiles did not have a battery. They were started with a crank. The battery was added later, to allow electrical starting. But the crank remained, and buyers insisted on having it. So, even then, the automobile could be started using the crank and without a battery.

Later, after the electrical starter had proved itself successful, automobiles were built without a crank.

So here, in your own example, we have a system with an appearance of irreducible complexity, yet whose development history was one of stepwise change

Here’s my response:

The fact that an engine designed to start without a battery can get along without a battery has no bearing on whether an engine designed to start with a battery can get along without a battery.

As Joe and BA point out (and as I explained in the OP), both systems were designed.  A designer can design a system to accomplish the same thing in various ways.  (piston/rotary or battery start/crank start).  This says nothing about whether NDE can build an IR system in a stepwise fashion.

You have committed what Phil Johnson calls “Berra’s blunder,” i.e., using an example that is obviously the product of intelligent agency to attempt to make a point about a non-intelligent process.

Berra’s Blunder:

If you compare a 1953 and a 1954 Corvette, side by side, then a 1954 and a 1955 model, and so on, the descent with modification is overwhelmingly obvious. This is what paleontologists do with fossils, and the evidence is so solid and comprehensive that it cannot be denied by reasonable people…

The point is that the Corvette evolved through a selection process acting on variations that resulted in a series of transitional forms and an endpoint rather distinct from the starting point. A similar process shapes the evolution of organisms.

Tim Berra, Evolution and the Myth of Creationism, 1990, pg 117-119

Phil Johnson:

Of course, every one of those Corvettes was designed by engineers. The Corvette sequence — like the sequence of Beethoven’s symphonies to the opinions of the United States Supreme Court — does not illustrate naturalistic evolution at all. It illustrates how intelligent designers will typically achieve their purposes by adding variations to a basic design plan. Above all, such sequences have no tendency whatever to support the claim that there is no need for a creator, since blind natural forces can do the creating. On the contrary, they show that what biologists present as proof of “evolution” or “common ancestry” is just as likely to be evidence of common design.

Phillip Johnson, Defeating Darwinism by Opening Minds, 1997, pg 63.

Even a moment’s reflection would suffice to make it clear that the “crank to battery/crank to battery only” analogy does not address the argument of the OP.  But Mr. Rickert did not take a moment to reflect, because he, like the two Ph.Ds referred to in the OP, has ideological blinders on.  These blinders cause him to make analogies that even a child could see have no bearing whatsoever on whether NDE – as opposed to an intelligent agent – can build an irreducibly complex system.  Thank you, Mr. Rickert, for illustrating the point of the OP so beautifully.

Comments
Stepwise evolution might be going out of fashion. I think the new fad is sudden de novo function and lots of horizontal gene transfer. At least that is the feeling I get reading about all the orphan genes they're finding. Check out this tick species 59% of the functional genes assessed have no trace of ancestry http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2164/14/135/abstract 10-30% orphans appears to be the average for other species. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23348040 Am I crazy or didn't sequence homology used to be used as evidence for common descent? This new direction solves the irreducible complexity problem, though. Now evolution can just skip all those bothersome incremental steps and simply generate the whole apparatus at once. Simple.lifepsy
March 11, 2013
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PeterJ, I hope I've disabused you of any notion that intelligence is required for information such as that in my posts above. If Miller is wrong, I don't want to be right!Chance Ratcliff
March 11, 2013
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OT: Primate Phylogenetics Challenge Darwin's Tree of Life - podcast http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/entry/2013-03-11T17_12_08-07_00bornagain77
March 11, 2013
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I think that a good example of irreducible complexity is random mutation and natural selection. A lot of the time in evolution both of those are required.Chance Ratcliff
March 11, 2013
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CR#37 really made me laugh. Thanks :) Isn't it strange though how the usual voices that cry out in defense of evolution have gone rather silent on this topic. I think it's the simple way in which Barry puts it that makes it harder for them. You either engage him with a counter argument, or else say something rather silly because their really is only one line of argumentation you can follow. I would like to hear some well laid out counter arguments on this. After all almost every pro-evolution site will have a section declaring how the evidence for Irreducible Complexity has been 'utterly demolished'. C'mon guys, Discuss. Please.PeterJ
March 11, 2013
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You mean you can catch mice... with a tie clip? No way! Next you'll be telling me that I can crush a bug by... dropping my iMac on it! If I ever see that, then that will prove once and for all that my iMac made itself by accident. Who needs Apple? I bet they don't even exist. Just some sick con to make stupid people (who believe that specified functional complexity requires Intelligent Design) part with their money.Chris Doyle
March 11, 2013
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In all seriousness, mousetraps are not irreducibly complex because you can exchange each of their parts with other parts that do the same job and still have a functional mousetrap. Plus it can be used as a tie clip. I used to be an intelligent design proponent until I saw that video.Chance Ratcliff
March 11, 2013
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Lifepsy, spot on. How can you cite bacteria as the best evidence for neo-darwinism when they are virtually the same today as they have always been? Why did the less evolutionary-favoured eukaryotes turn into men by NS+RM when the best that bacteria could do was break a protein to acquire immunity from antibiotics (millions of years before there were any antibiotics!)?Chris Doyle
March 11, 2013
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Must try harder, Chance Ratcliff: your posts on this thread have contributed more to the debate than the ones we are supposed to be taking seriously from the "free-will is an illusion and existence is meaningless" brigade! Come on, really try and make it obvious that you are taking the micky ;-)Chris Doyle
March 11, 2013
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KF, tongue in cheek is not irreducibly complex. Most animals have them. Chris Doyle, Ian Thompson is probably a creationist, in that he probably believes in irreducible complexity; see William J Murray above.Chance Ratcliff
March 11, 2013
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I'm just awestruck by the fact that 50,000+ generations of bacteria can't even produce a new functional gene, but evolutionists believe throwing 400 million years of culled mutations at a fish will produce a human... It's like living in the twilight zone. Are we really here debating this?lifepsy
March 11, 2013
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Post #1 by Neil. deja vu "Wow! Just Wow!"sterusjon
March 11, 2013
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KF, you can't blame Ian for not seeing the tongue in cheek. Chance Ratcliff sounded EXACTLY like an atheistic evolutionist! Exaggeration required next time I think :-)Chris Doyle
March 11, 2013
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Hi Bornagain77, I came across that article last week thanks to an Android app called Zite. It's a good article, I'm glad you highlighted it here. There is no bigger obstacle to progress in this debate than atheism. While you're dealing with people who claim to believe that life, the universe and everything made itself by accident you are dealing with people who must overcome a serious case of cognitive dissonance before they will open their minds to the facts and evidence explained by Intelligent Design theory. So much for atheists, I want to know why some theistic evolutionists have such a problem with Intelligent Design. After all, they don't believe that life made itself by accident: they surely believe it was all part of a plan - a Grand Design, surely? Where is Nick Matzke when you need him?Chris Doyle
March 11, 2013
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No irreducibly complex biological systems? There are no irreducibly complex systems of any sort! Complexity is just a creationist term used to confuse children! There is no such thing as "information" because no real scientist uses that word. Google Scholar the term "information" and tell me if anything comes up that says anything about "special creation" or "Jesus". See? SEE?William J Murray
March 11, 2013
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Sorry Ian, that's just the way it is. Darwinian evolution is perfectly capable of generating irreducible complexity, which doesn't exist in biological systems. I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I'm not.Chance Ratcliff
March 11, 2013
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IT: I think CR was being tongue in cheek. KFkairosfocus
March 11, 2013
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CR at #24. Ipse dixit (see #18 for translation)Ian Thompson
March 11, 2013
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lifepsy and Chris Doyle, per your comments you guys might be interested in this article: Where are the honest atheists? - March 8, 2013 http://theweek.com/article/index/241108/where-are-the-honest-atheistsbornagain77
March 11, 2013
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Look here, there are no irreducibly complex biological systems; besides, Darwinian evolution is perfectly capable of building them.Chance Ratcliff
March 11, 2013
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Animal right groups make the argument - all mammals have the same value because they are basically the same. A giraffe is the same as an elephant or a human. Yet even a two year old can see the difference between a giraffe and an elephant. Even if they all contain the same parts, the parts are arranged uniquely in each case to fit their environment. Are they not also irreducibly complex?Tim AJ
March 11, 2013
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LP, guess why the challenge and invitation here to do just that -- I have personally promised to host -- is approaching six months now with no cogent answer. And there is no mystery on what chance variation and differential reproductive success of sub populations in eco-niches is, the issue is whether it suffices to incrementally explain microbes to Mozard level body plan origins, on empirical observational warrant. Suffice to say, that that requires massive steps of FSCO/I and the ONLY empirically warranted source of that is design, and this is backed up by needle in the haystack search by blind sampling analysis. And, we haven't got to the root of the tree of life -- OOL -- where a metabolising automaton with self replication and self assembly driven by codes and algorithms has to be explained without recourse to "natural selection." As, there is no reproduction until the mechanism for it is in place. What strikes me is that a mechanism that explains minor adaptations reasonably adequately, is being stretched beyond all reason through imposed a priori materialism dressed up in a lab coat (often disguised as a "mere" methodological constraint). KFkairosfocus
March 11, 2013
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Hi Lifespy, in a word 'no'. Because evolutionists have already lost the argument. The clever ones realise this and stay away: it's no fun trying to win an argument when facts and reason are on your opponents' side. The stupid ones on the other hand don't realise this... and, like Monty Python's Black Knight, keep coming back for more punishment. The rest is just internet atheists hating non-atheists and haters gotta hate.Chris Doyle
March 11, 2013
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Might there be a way of getting someone who can actually make an argument for evolution to comment here? It would be much more interesting than the drive-by slapstick comedy offered by the evolutionists thus far... Not to say it isn't amusing, though.. if not highly revealing of the strength of their position.lifepsy
March 11, 2013
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Alan Fox:
And the cake is iced with utterly uncomprehending comments about the basic mechanism of natural selection.
Natural selection is just differential reproduction due to heritable random variation. It doesn't do anything. And it doesn't prevent accidents. It is one way accidents accumulate, Alan. Alan's on a roll!Joe
March 11, 2013
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Anyone who would like to study the Ipse dixit logical fallacy can go to this Wiki article, which is quite good: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipse_dixit Those who would like to see Ipse dixit in action need look no further than Alan Fox’s comments at 15 and 16. The Ipse dixit is Alan’s favorite tactic. Note that he never favors us with an argument of his own to support his conclusion. We are supposed to accept his assertions simply because he has asserted them. With friends like Alan, the Darwinians don’t need enemies. PeterJ @ 17 asks in frustration: “Alan, with all due respect, why can’t you just put forward a rebuttal, or form an argument, rather than make silly comments. Please.” Just so Peter. Just so. I harken back to the OP. For Alan to put forward a rebuttal or form an argument would take 30 seconds of thought, and thinking is hard and 30 seconds is a long time. Far easier to just dash off a one line dismissal. If one does not care to engage with one’s opponents on the merits of their arguments, one line huffs are good enough. Barry Arrington
March 11, 2013
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Alan, with all due respect, why can't you just put forward a rebutal, or form an argument, rather than make silly comments. PleasePeterJ
March 11, 2013
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...people who believe everything made itself by accident
And the cake is iced with utterly uncomprehending comments about the basic mechanism of natural selection. UD is on a roll!Alan Fox
March 11, 2013
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Yeah, keep em coming, Barry! These utterly inappropriate analogies are bound to change the course of evolutionary biology one day!Alan Fox
March 11, 2013
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Chris, thank you.Barry Arrington
March 11, 2013
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