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Which Part of Evolutionary Theory is Self-Evidently Wrong?

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UD’s dear commenter Elizabeth Liddle (whom I greatly admire for her respectful dissent from our dissent from evolutionary orthodoxy) asks the question in the title of my post.

Upon hearing this challenge my first reaction was, Where to begin? I’ll begin with two self-evidently wrong propositions of evolutionary theory.

1) Gradualism. Attempts to cram the fossil evidence into the gradualistic model display transparent desperation to make the evidence fit the theory. The fossil record testifies consistently and persuasively to three things: stasis, abrupt extinction, and abrupt appearance of new functional life forms. In addition, common sense argues that there is no gradualistic pathway for almost any biologically complex and functionally integrated system. A simple example is the avian lung. There is no conceivably logical gradualistic pathway from a reptilian bellows lung to an avian circulatory lung, because the intermediates would immediately die of asphyxiation.

Furthermore, attempts by Darwinists to explain away this kind of obvious problem strike ID folks — we consider ourselves, by the way, to be the real “free thinkers” concerning origins — as desperate attempts motivated by a desire to defend a theory in evidential and logical crisis.

2) The biologically creative evolutionary power of stochastic events filtered by natural selection.

This proposition is dead-simply, obviously, and empirically unreasonable (except in isolated pathological instances such as bacterial antibiotic resistance, in which case the probabilistic resources are available to allow informational degradation to provide a temporary survival advantage). Natural selection is irrelevant. Throwing out failed experiments does nothing to increase the creative power of random events. Simple combinatorial mathematics render the stochastic proposition completely unreasonable.

The two examples I’ve provided I find to be self-evidently wrong.

Comments
BTW, your link appears to be to a post of yours in which you claim Dr Bot and I bow out. And, as it's the last post in the thread, I guess we did. Not quite the same as saying we were "soundly trounced" though. I expect I lost the link. I'll go respond to your later posts on on GAs on that thread now. See you there.Elizabeth Liddle
July 24, 2011
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That's odd, Mung. I seem to remember that you were . Funny how that works, eh? :DElizabeth Liddle
July 24, 2011
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Elizabeth - I'm not sure those are quite as separable as you may think. The problem is, dealing with natural history, much of what we "know" is inherently theory-bound. Whether or not Darwinism is sufficient is actually a part of whether or not it predicts wrong things. It is a prediction of Darwinism that evolution will be gradual. Was evolution gradual? We don't know. We have the fossil record. So, is the fossil record incomplete or is Darwinism making a wrong prediction? However, in #2, it is quite clear - the Darwinian notion of the origin of interesting mutations has been clearly falsified. Interesting mutations, as we have found in experiment, come from the genome being setup to produce them. The genome is predisposed towards a range of mutations that also matches the potential biological circumstances that the cell faces. This is quite contrary from the Darwinian notion of where mutations originate. A good book on the subject is Caporale's "The Implicit Genome". While she hold out hope that selection might produce the systems she describes, the whole book shows that the systems that we can experimentally determine to exist actually show that the organism is predisposed towards biologically-meaningful change.johnnyb
July 24, 2011
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Grr... https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/fea-and-darwinian-computer-simulations/#comment-386396Mung
July 24, 2011
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Elizabeth: Indeed. RM+NS is a pretty cool designer. Mung: And your evidence for this assertion is? DrBot:
Engineers use GA’s (RM+NS) to produce novel designs.
Indeed they do. Those GA designers are pretty cool designers.
We’ve already had this conversation Mung – have you forgotten already?
You seem to have convinced yourself that you won that debate. I seem to recall that you bowed out after being soundly trounced. DrBot and Elizabeth Liddle bow out. :)Mung
July 24, 2011
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"but that's [not]</b. what you did .."Ilion
July 24, 2011
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GilDodgen @ 102 (to Mung) "The fact that I refuse to accuse Liz of lying does not mean that I would never make that charge about any Darwinist. ..." I'm pretty sure that neither Mung, nor I, nor any of the other commenters who have indirectly (that is, without actually using the actual word) accused Dr Luddite of lying have insisted that you must do likewise. However, you have gone far beyond merely not explicitly naming her as dishonest. You have chosen, instead, to attack those persons who do choose to identidy and name her dishonesty. Now, it would be one thing if that identification were erroneous, and you, as an honest man, were correcting that error -- you know, in much the same way the Mrs O'Leary and I had recently spoken out in defence of Richard Dawkins (much as I loathe everything about the man) in his recent to-do with his fellow free thinkers." But, that's what you did -- you tried to play the "nice" card. And, worse, you tried to play the "you're not a real Christian" card (see post # 3).Ilion
July 24, 2011
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Jeffrey Helix @ 92 "I would say instead of lies we just use the term misrepresentations or something to that effect. . To say that critics of ID are lying is to presume that they “know” they are wrong to begin with." The proper term to apply to most of the "arguments" that the DarwinDefenders present is lie; and, in this particular context, to refuse to openly state the truth of the matter is to, oneself, lie. A 'misrepresentation' might be an honest error, or it might be a lie. When the fact that one's statements/assertions are misrepresentations has been pointed out, and it has been explained *why* they are false, and yet one continues to assert them, then one is lying, and one is a liar. A person's reasoning might be true/sound-and-valid or might be false/unsound-or-invalid. WHen it have been explained that one's reasoning is unsound or invalid, and *why*, and yet one does not correct the error, then one is lying and one is a liar. In fact, one is worse that a mere liar, for one is lying about the very nature of truth and reason.Ilion
July 24, 2011
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Mung: Time for a reality check Gil. The fact that I refuse to accuse Liz of lying does not mean that I would never make that charge about any Darwinist. There are plenty of examples of outright lying. For example, Ken Miller has repeatedly asserted that Michael Behe's irreducible complexity challenge requires that sub-components of an IC system not be capable of serving other purposes. Behe repeatedly corrected Miller on this point -- that he, Behe, never made and does not make this claim -- and Miller persisted in using this falsehood to try to discredit IC.GilDodgen
July 24, 2011
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It seems to me that there are two separable issues here: That Darwinism is wrong (predicts things that are found to be false). That Darwinism is inadequate (fails to explain some things). I was particularly interested in what people thought was wrong with evolutionary theory.Elizabeth Liddle
July 24, 2011
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Also, somewhere in here is a question on whether or not these objections do anything against common descent. I believe that Gil's #1 and #2 do not harm common descent if you take common descent from an ID perspective, but my argument based on non-materialism may. We had a long UD conversation about that a while ago if you are interesting: ID and Common Descent In short, if evolution were guided by information, it would not need to be gradualistic. And, while it might have some stochastic components, the majority of the direction for evolution would come from internal information, not external selection or internal stochasticity.johnnyb
July 24, 2011
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DrBot GAs don't qualify as RM+NS because the parameters are pre-specified to match the problem domain, in addition, I know of no GA (except Avida) which allows arbitrary loops to be formed, and therefore allow real creative work to happen. Interestingly, in Avida, though it has the theoretical capacity to create arbitrary loops, no one has gotten it to produce a loop which helps solve a problem. There is one loop in Avida which is biologically meaningful - the one which was *designed* in by the creators for self-replication. That's right - you can tell what parts of Avida organisms are designed by looking for loops that contribute to function. Pre-matching parameters to the problem domain, and then mutating the parameters is interesting, but shows ID, not natural selection, because it is the parameters that are more important than the mutations. You might see my following posts/papers: Thoughts on parameterized vs. open-ended evolution My technical paper on the subject (includes a section on Avida)johnnyb
July 24, 2011
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JH: Welcome to the world of the un-lurked. Stand by for the "anti-IDiot" attacks in 10, 9, 8 . . . (Who knows, you may even join the death star list in some of the anti-UD attack blogs out there . . . [Make sure to look at Pipl.com and 123.ca etc and demand in the most stringent terms that they take down any and all info relating to you. Some trolls imagine that they have a right to use info that you don't know how it got to the net, without your permission, to set up the sort of mafioso threats I have recently had: we know you, we know where you are, we think we know those you care for.]) You have raised some interesting issues, and points, The synthesis of Cytosine, I know is notoriously a challenge, dunno if it has been solved recently under reasonable early earth conditions. I would actually hold that the basic problem -- elaborated by TBO -- is that the conditions of a prebiotic earth as seem plausible are not really compatible with getting to the relevant monomers and sustaining them in any meaningful concentration. (Have a look here, esp in the early chapters.) As to mutually incompatible synthesis requisites, I don't know, but the workaround would always be that he chemicals can flow together and mix. Therein lieth the rub, as a realistic mixing environment would rip up or cross react with the requisites for assembling a viable metabolising, self replicating entity on a von Neumann Self Replicator. Life chemistry is very specifically controlled, programmed chemistry as the action of the ribosome shows as a capital example. That implies a LOT of counterflow, constructive work, running right up the thermodynamics hill based on complex FSCI rich nanomachines that are part of the integrated system. Irreducible complexity on steroids. GEM of TKI PS: I am following up on Alfred Russel Wallace as a key precursor to modern design thought, here.kairosfocus
July 24, 2011
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Been following UD off and on for a couple years now since before you became a writer for UD itself. I'm honored to receive a welcome for you after actually deciding to start commenting on UD itself! With regards to whether or not critics of ID have actually lied about anything (saying something they themselves knew was false) I guess I could think of countless such instances. Some examples I was discussing with a friend: 1. MarkCC's review of EoE in which he claims that when you take into account that there are a billion malaria cells in one infected person, Behe's numbers become false. (Actually there are several places in which Behe says the figure is a trillion cells, including a few tables.) 2. Claims that the early drafts from "Of Pandas and People" say the designer is god. Or any advocacy of using the bible to draw conclusions. (I can't find where I saw it, but I saw someone give a list of several things found in creationism that were not in the drafts; the idea of a supernatural god creating everything out of nothing as told by Genesis was one of them. The debate was between some pro-ID guy and PvM from The Panda's Thumb.) 3. Anyone who claims we claim replicate the RNA world scenario with success under accurate conditions. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but you can't even synthesize all the RNA chemical constituents in the same mix because the conditions required are not compatible with each other.)Jeffrey Helix
July 24, 2011
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Dr BOT: "Research" that is controlled by a priori imposition of evolutionary materialism is locked into an ideological spider's web; it is not a fearless, unfettered pursuit of a true and fair view of our origins on sound scientific principles. And, as Lewontin summed up the matter from Sagan and ilk, joining in himself:
. . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident [[actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . ] that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality, and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test [[i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [NYRB, Jan 1997. And if you think the following words I have clipped off JUSTIFY such tactics, or turn the above into "quote mining" -- a favourite and too often unjustified dismissive rebuttal talking point -- I suggest you read the fuller extract in context, here.]
The cat has long since been let out of the bag that was advertised as having a piglet in it. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 24, 2011
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We should not allow the aura of the holy lab coat to intimidate or overawe us, and surrender the duty of care to check out the facts for ourselves, and -- cf here and here -- to check out the implications of those facts for our civilisation and for how our communities should operate in light of the true balance on the merits. Then, we must all set out to restore science to a reasonable balance, before it is too late. For in the end, per Provine's 1998 Darwin Day keynote at U of Tenn, this is what is at stake:
Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent . . . . The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will . . .
Of course the above hinges on imposing a priori evolutionary materialism, and it is that root that leads directly to the undermining or principles of right and wrong [it is inherently and inescapably amoral] and of our ability to think and decide for ourselves [freedom to decide is pivotal to the credibility of our minds]. So, Philip Johnson's retort is apt:
For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [[Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them "materialists employing science." And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) "give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." . . . . The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [[Emphasis added.] [[The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]
There is a lot in the stakes, and we need to think very soberly indeed about where we stand, why. Including, recognising that willfully continued misrepresentation (especially in the teeth of cogent correction) is deceit -- such as is all too commonly seen at the top levels of the evolutionary materialism promotion industry. Sadly willful deceit, deceit in service of unfair advantage in our civilisation and its key institutions; with an unrecognised ultimate import of civilisational ruin, as Plato warned us against in The Laws, Bk , 2350 years ago now. So, painful though it is to see such words in the stakes, the L-word and the F-word above are properly at issue. Dr Matzke et al in the top tiers of that industry have some pretty serious explaining to do. At lower levels, we the educated and influential had better get to our homework on origins science and its implications for our civilisation. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 24, 2011
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Jeffrey Helix Welcome to UD! Interesting comment:
I would say instead of lies we just use the term misrepresentations or something to that effect. To say that critics of ID are lying is to presume that they “know” they are wrong to begin with.
For a lot of the denizens of the Sagan- Lewontin- Coyne- NCSE- NAS- NSTA etc etc evolutionary materialist cave, that is largely so. But, when we are speaking of the top dogs who set up the shadow shows, the matter is different. There is such a concept as a duty of care to the truth and to fairness in general, pop sci, educational, public policy or academic discussion (and even debate). When you are at the level of a Nick Matzke, or a Barbara Forrest or a Eugenie Scott or a Clinton Richard Dawkins, or the like -- we are not here talking of ordinary people or busy academics who have not had time or opportunity or challenge to make them pause and think through the issues at deepest levels [and the way our civilisation's education systems and media culture have been manipulated over decades is significantly responsible for that . . . ] -- you have the knowledge base, access to reference resources and experts, research skills and responsibility of privilege to be accurate and fair in your reporting. Just as, accountants and auditors have a duty to give a substantially true and fair view of the financial condition of a business in the balance sheets, income statements, etc. Failure to do that, is incompetence or fraud. The latter being "A deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain." [AmHD.] And in this context, we are plainly not dealing with the fundamentally intellectually deficient or incompetent. There is such a thing as the truth that one knows or SHOULD -- has a duty of care to -- know. When people at the level just described act in plain violation of that duty of care, the options left on the table are not pretty. Let's look at Wiki's declaration against interest on the subject of lying; placing it in the context of the fallacy of selective hyperskepticism. Yes, "lie" is an ugly word. But, sadly, an all too relevant one, and one that needs to be confronted at the top level, if our civilisation is to be saved; even at the last minute, as a brand plucked from burning:
To lie is to state something with disregard to the truth with the intention that people will accept the statement as truth . . . . even a true statement can be used to deceive. In this situation, it is the intent of being overall untruthful rather than the truthfulness of any individual statement that is considered the lie . . . . One can state part of the truth out of context, knowing that without complete information, it gives a false impression. Likewise, one can actually state accurate facts, yet deceive with them . . . . One lies by omission when omitting an important fact, deliberately leaving another person with a misconception. Lying by omission includes failures to correct pre-existing misconceptions. Also known as a continuing misrepresentation . . . . A misleading statement is one where there is no outright lie, but still retains the purpose of getting someone to believe in an untruth . . .
Let us note: a continuing misrepresenatation is a willful deception in teh teeth of duty of care to the truth and to fairness. For specific and highly relevant instance, Dr Nick Matzke has yet to properly explain himself and apologise for the long sustained willful misrepresentation that Design theory is little more than cleverly repackaged "creationism" set up to evade certain US court rulings. (Cf Dr Thomas Cudworth's rebuke here on at UD in recent days, in context.) So, at the level we are addressing, we must realise that too often the bigger, softer words, only cushion and obscure the point, making the comfortable more comfortable while stuck in webs of willfully constructed deception. At the lower level, we the educated, opinion leaders, educators and relevant decision makers now have a duty of care it investigate a known controversy seriously, and to take an informed view [especially when speaking in public or in places of influence]. If one willfully fails in that duty of care, there is indeed a somewhat lesser responsibility, but one becomes a part of the second level of a deception: recklessly, irresponsibly propagating what one SHOULD have known was not a true and fair view on a matter of some importance to individuals and to our civilisation's health. [ . . . ]kairosfocus
July 24, 2011
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Elizabeth Liddle:
Indeed. RM+NS is a pretty cool designer.
And your evidence for this assertion is?
Engineers use GA's (RM+NS) to produce novel designs. We've already had this conversation Mung - have you forgotten already?
Nick Matzke:
Do some research, for goodness sake! Scientists will never take you seriously if you assert thing are inconceivable that have in fact already been conceived.
Ah, so that’s what passes for science these days?
LOL, yes Mung, in modern times science has collapsed to the point that scientists just sit around all day doing research instead of getting on with the important job of wild speculation, arm waiving and equivocation.DrBot
July 24, 2011
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I would say instead of lies we just use the term misrepresentations or something to that effect. To say that critics of ID are lying is to presume that they "know" they are wrong to begin with.Jeffrey Helix
July 23, 2011
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GilDodgen:
Darwinists never consider the hard requirements of the real-world application of their hypothesis. They just make up fantastic stories and tell anyone who disagrees that they are enemies of science and are scientifically illiterate.
But the fantastic stories that Darwinists tell are not lies. Their claims that anyone who disagrees are enemies of science and are scientifically illiterate are not lies. Time for a reality check Gil.Mung
July 23, 2011
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Why do I despise evolutionists? Nick Matzke directs us to the following page: http://ncse.com/book/export/html/2126 At this page we learn that "bird lungs operate quite differently from mammalian lungs." So freaking what? Are birds mammals? This totally misses the point. Thank you Nick, for pointing out the blatantly obvious and the completely irrelevant.Mung
July 23, 2011
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A parallel case, whale evo, presented by an evo biologist and member of the legions of the expelled, Dr Richard Sternberg.kairosfocus
July 23, 2011
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Nick, I know exactly who you are, because I was once you. I harbored the same hatred that you do, and that hatred eventually tore my soul apart. When I was in college I used all my intellectual capacities in a nefarious attempt to destroy the faith of Christians. I took great pride in this at the time, but I now realize what a fool I was. Just like Antony Flew, perhaps the most famous among 20th-century intellectual atheists, I eventually found the arguments from design to be compelling, and the attempts of materialist atheists to be acts of desperation. Your propositions about the evolution of the avian lung tell us nothing. It's all storytelling. Which mutations would be required for each step? What is the probability of this happening? How many individuals and reproductive events would be required to fix this in the population, given that a beneficially-mutated organism could die by chance, disease, or predators? Darwinists never consider the hard requirements of the real-world application of their hypothesis. They just make up fantastic stories and tell anyone who disagrees that they are enemies of science and are scientifically illiterate. This line or argumentation will not survive the information age, especially when people like you resort to irrational hysteria.GilDodgen
July 23, 2011
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Nick, I want a bird dog! No not a dog that hunts birds, I want a dog that actually flies!!!! Tell me what is my first step in evolving me a dog to fly??? Do I go on the roof and throw off a zillion dogs until I get a male and female that survive??? Breed a zillion more dogs etc?? etc?? etc?? Using such a sure fire Darwinian Method how long do you think until I have the world's first genuine bird dog??? :) Myself, I can't seem to find any math that will give me a ballpark figure; ============= Hopeful monsters,' transposons, and the Metazoan radiation: Excerpt: Viable mutations with major morphological or physiological effects are exceedingly rare and usually infertile; the chance of two identical rare mutant individuals arising in sufficient propinquity to produce offspring seems too small to consider as a significant evolutionary event. These problems of viable "hopeful monsters" render these explanations untenable. Paleobiologists Douglas Erwin and James Valentine "The likelihood of developing two binding sites in a protein complex would be the square of the probability of developing one: a double CCC (chloroquine complexity cluster), 10^20 times 10^20, which is 10^40. There have likely been fewer than 10^40 cells in the entire world in the past 4 billion years, so the odds are against a single event of this variety (just 2 binding sites being generated by accident) in the history of life. It is biologically unreasonable." Michael J. Behe PhD. (from page 146 of his book "Edge of Evolution") Nature Paper,, Finds Darwinian Processes Lacking - Michael Behe - Oct. 2009 Excerpt: Now, thanks to the work of Bridgham et al (2009), even such apparently minor switches in structure and function (of a protein to its supposed ancestral form) are shown to be quite problematic. It seems Darwinian processes can’t manage to do even as much as I had thought. (which was 1 in 10^40 for just 2 binding sites) http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/10/nature_paper_finally_reaches_t.html The Sheer Lack Of Evidence For Macro Evolution - William Lane Craig - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4023134 When Theory and Experiment Collide — April 16th, 2011 by Douglas Axe Excerpt: Based on our experimental observations and on calculations we made using a published population model [3], we estimated that Darwin’s mechanism would need a truly staggering amount of time—a trillion trillion years or more—to accomplish the seemingly subtle change in enzyme function that we studied. http://biologicinstitute.org/2011/04/16/when-theory-and-experiment-collide/ “Mutations are rare phenomena, and a simultaneous change of even two amino acid residues in one protein is totally unlikely. One could think, for instance, that by constantly changing amino acids one by one, it will eventually be possible to change the entire sequence substantially… These minor changes, however, are bound to eventually result in a situation in which the enzyme has ceased to perform its previous function but has not yet begun its ‘new duties’. It is at this point it will be destroyed - along with the organism carrying it.” Maxim D. Frank-Kamenetski, Unraveling DNA, 1997, p. 72. (Professor at Brown U. Center for Advanced Biotechnology and Biomedical Engineering) etc.. etc.. etc..bornagain77
July 23, 2011
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F/N: PDF http://wallacefund.info/sites/wallacefund.info/files/Wallace.1914.The_World_of_Life.pdf Clipping pp vi, vii, 1914 London printing: _________ >> But besides the discussion of these and several other allied subjects, the most prominent feature of my book is that I enter into a popular yet critical examination of those underlying fundamental problems which Darwin purposely excluded from his works as being beyond the scope of his enquiry. Such are, the nature and causes of Life itself ; and more especially of its most fundamental and mysterious powers growth and reproduction. I first endeavour to show (in Chapter XIV.) by a care- ful consideration of the structure of the bird's feather; of the marvellous transformations of the higher insects ; and, more especially of the highly elaborated wing-scales of the Lepidoptera (as easily accessible examples of what is going on in every part of the structure of every living thing), the absolute necessity for an organising and directive Life- Principle in order to account for the very possibility of these complex outgrowths. I argue, that they necessarily imply first, a Creative Power, which so constituted matter as to render these marvels possible ; next, a directive Mind which is demanded at every step of what we term growth, and often look upon as so simple and natural a process as to require no explanation ; and, lastly, an ultimate Purpose, in the very existence of the whole vast life-world in all its long course of evolution throughout the eons of geological time. This Purpose, which alone throws light on many of the mysteries of its mode of evolution, I hold to be the development of Man, the one crowning product of the whole cosmic process of life-development ; the only being which can to some extent comprehend nature; which can perceive and trace out her modes of action ; which can appreciate the hidden forces and motions everywhere at work, and can deduce from them a supreme and over- ruling Mind as their necessary cause. For those who accept some such view as I have indicated, I show (in Chapters XV. and XVI.) how strongly it is sup-ported and enforced by a long series of facts and co-relations which we can hardly look upon as all purely accidental coincidences. Such are the infinitely varied products of living things which serve man's purposes and man's alone not only by supplying his material wants, and by gratifying his higher tastes and emotions, but as rendering possible many of those advances in the arts and in science which we claim to be the highest proofs of his superiority to the brutes, as well as of his advancing civilisation. From a consideration of these better-known facts I proceed (in Chapter XVII.) to an exposition of the mystery of cell-growth ; to a consideration of the elements in their special relation to the earth itself and to the life-world ; while in the last chapter I endeavour to show the purpose of that law of diversity which seems to pervade the whole material Universe. >> _________ In short, there is a lot more to the real story and history than meets the eye at the hands of the evo mat magisterium now imposing its agendas as a reigning orthodoxy. It is time to think outside the materialist box -- or should I say, cave -- that some would push us into. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 23, 2011
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Gil: "We know that biological systems contain error-detection-and-correction algorithms and mechanisms." One way to preserve front loaded code is to write it as two-way, preserving the original and with a simple substitution more than one new function can arise. Cars ---} Substitute S for T: Cart {----} Now two new functions have arose from the same error corrected code. cart trac This would be highly sophisticated. There could be layers upon layers of inactive code nested within the operational code.junkdnaforlife
July 23, 2011
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Hi Nick! My copy of Prothero's came in. A lovely book. I look forward to reading it. However, just thumbing through, I came across some drawings of embryos on page 110. Is Prothero an embryologist? A developmental biologist? Trained in comparative anatomy? No? He's a GEOLOGIST!? The text for the figure on page 110 (fig 4.10) reads as follows:
The evidence from embryology. An embryologist Karl Ernst von Baer pointed out in the 1830s, long before Darwin published his ideas about evolution, all vertebrates start out with a very fish-like body plan early in embryology, including the predecessors of gills and a long tail. As they develop, many lose their fish-like features on their way to becoming reptiles, birds and mammals. (From Romanes 1910)
Isn't Prothero perhaps moving a bit beyond what he is competent to address? how much of this book should I ignore due to the simple fact that the author doesn't know enough to know better? Should I just stick with the fossil evidence?
Mung
July 23, 2011
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Dr Matzke: I see you have resurfaced, having taken a timeout after your earlier misadventure. Please go back to the older thread and answer a few serious questions. The talking points game just above is getting very old. (Cf here on its implications, relative to your duties of care that have been consistently unmet, please.) I suggest you pause and take a read of a certain Mr Alfred Russel Wallace, in his The World of Life, where he discusses, e.g. the origin of birds as a support of his vision of Intelligent Evolution. In short Gil has some very interesting precedent for his citation of the birds as a relevant case on the intelligence and design manifest in life forms. It is worth excerpting the sub-title of Wallace's book: "a manifestation of creative power, directive mind and ultimate purpose." Yes, that's what in the end the co-founder of evolutionary theory thought. It is high time for some serious rethinking. GEM of TKI PS: Anyone who comes to UD quoting the notoriously manipulative and willfully deceptive TO site or the Wiki site [except as testimony against interest . . . as in the first liked above] is either hopelessly naive or worse, much worse. Please, find better -- let's be blunt: HONEST -- sources next time.kairosfocus
July 23, 2011
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Very thorough Nick: "Sauropods are known to have air sacs from fossil evidence, so air sacs were attached to the lungs of the dinosaurian ancestors of birds for tens of millions of years before theropod dinosaurs and then birds arose." "Perry’s (1992) model for the origin of bird lungs, showing the relationship to the crocodilian lung. Archosaur and theropod lungs are hypothetical constructs." Did you realize you pasted in the same block of text twice? Was that just to make it look like a whole lotta sciencey stuff?: Perry’s (1992) model for the origin of bird lungs, showing the relationship to the crocodilian lung. Archosaur and theropod lungs are hypothetical constructs. Extinct groups are marked with a “+”, and perforations between chambers are marked with “*.” Perry proposes that these perforations play a crucial role in the stepwise evolution of the avian parabronchi, as indicated in the detail sketches of theropod and avian-grade lungs. CrC and CaC are cranial [forward part of the trunk] and caudal [rearward part of the trunk] chambers, which are connected with the respective regions of the intrapulmonary bronchus. MvB and MdB are avian medioventral bronchi and mediodorsal bronchi, which are proposed to evolve from CrC and CaC, respectively, as indicated by small arrows. From Figure 6, p. 161 of: Perry, Steven F. (1992). “Gas exchange strategies in reptiles and the origin of the avian lung”. Physiological Adaptations in Vertebrates. Wood, S. C., Weber, R. E., Hargens, A. R. and Millard, R. W., Eds. New York, Marcel Dekker: 149–167.Perry’s (1992) model for the origin of bird lungs: Perry’s (1992) model for the origin of bird lungs, showing the relationship to the crocodilian lung. Archosaur and theropod lungs are hypothetical constructs. Extinct groups are marked with a “+”, and perforations between chambers are marked with “*.” Perry proposes that these perforations play a crucial role in the stepwise evolution of the avian parabronchi, as indicated in the detail sketches of theropod and avian-grade lungs. CrC and CaC are cranial [forward part of the trunk] and caudal [rearward part of the trunk] chambers, which are connected with the respective regions of the intrapulmonary bronchus. MvB and MdB are avian medioventral bronchi and mediodorsal bronchi, which are proposed to evolve from CrC and CaC, respectively, as indicated by small arrows. From Figure 6, p. 161 of: Perry, Steven F. (1992). “Gas exchange strategies in reptiles and the origin of the avian lung”. Physiological Adaptations in Vertebrates. Wood, S. C., Weber, R. E., Hargens, A. R. and Millard, R. W., Eds. New York, Marcel Dekker: 149–167. Didn't think anyone would read it?junkdnaforlife
July 23, 2011
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Nick Matzke:
Do some research, for goodness sake! Scientists will never take you seriously if you assert thing are inconceivable that have in fact already been conceived!
Ah, so that's what passes for science these days?Mung
July 23, 2011
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