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Which Part of Evolutionary Theory is Self-Evidently Wrong?

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UD’s dear commenter Elizabeth Liddle (whom I greatly admire for her respectful dissent from our dissent from evolutionary orthodoxy) asks the question in the title of my post.

Upon hearing this challenge my first reaction was, Where to begin? I’ll begin with two self-evidently wrong propositions of evolutionary theory.

1) Gradualism. Attempts to cram the fossil evidence into the gradualistic model display transparent desperation to make the evidence fit the theory. The fossil record testifies consistently and persuasively to three things: stasis, abrupt extinction, and abrupt appearance of new functional life forms. In addition, common sense argues that there is no gradualistic pathway for almost any biologically complex and functionally integrated system. A simple example is the avian lung. There is no conceivably logical gradualistic pathway from a reptilian bellows lung to an avian circulatory lung, because the intermediates would immediately die of asphyxiation.

Furthermore, attempts by Darwinists to explain away this kind of obvious problem strike ID folks — we consider ourselves, by the way, to be the real “free thinkers” concerning origins — as desperate attempts motivated by a desire to defend a theory in evidential and logical crisis.

2) The biologically creative evolutionary power of stochastic events filtered by natural selection.

This proposition is dead-simply, obviously, and empirically unreasonable (except in isolated pathological instances such as bacterial antibiotic resistance, in which case the probabilistic resources are available to allow informational degradation to provide a temporary survival advantage). Natural selection is irrelevant. Throwing out failed experiments does nothing to increase the creative power of random events. Simple combinatorial mathematics render the stochastic proposition completely unreasonable.

The two examples I’ve provided I find to be self-evidently wrong.

Comments
Ilion:
That ‘modern evolutionary theory’ is a theory.
Good point. Walter ReMine calls "Modern Evolutionary Theory" a smorgasbord.Mung
July 23, 2011
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Liz: Do you also regard this evidence as evidence against common descent? No. Common descent seems reasonable, although I think universal common descent is falling on hard times, the Cambrian explosion being the most obvious example. ...what do you think the family tree of life might look like? More like a hologram than a tree. ...what do you hypothesize as the explanation for the appearance of abrupt life forms? I don't know. Front-loading with prescribed, timed activation or event/environmentally-sensitive activation of existing dormant code is a possibility. As far as the sampling problem in the fossil record goes, if the Darwinian hypothesis is correct, the more we discover the more continuous the record should appear, but in fact the more discontinuous it appears. Again, the Cambrian explosion is the most obvious example. Concerning my combinatorial mathematics assertion, see Doug Axe's work on the percentage of biologically meaningful/functional proteins (1 in 10^74). As far as I'm concerned, to lie is to assert as the truth something that one believes to be untrue. I see no evidence that Liz has ever done that, so let's drop the subject.GilDodgen
July 23, 2011
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kf:
So, let us remember that to be human under present circumstances is to be finite, fallible, morally fallen and too often ill-willed. In that context, we need to be very careful indeed about crossing the subtle, unmarked line into the territory of willfully suppressing the truth we know or should know. The fallacy of the willfully closed mind yawns open before all of us. Let us beware.
Yes indeed. But, to look at things more optimistically, the the assumption of the other's willfully closed mind may also be a fallacy. That's why I find it much more productive to assume that other people are posting in good faith, willing to be persuaded if the arguments and evidence are persuasive, and when that assumption is mutual, as it often seems to be, here, I think we are much more likely to at least reach clarity on where we disagree on fundamentals. The playing field is crowded with straw men on both sides, and getting them out of the way seems to me to be a good start! I've said before that I think that if we could be absolutely clear on what divides us, it would be just as clear as to which of us was right. But that clarity is an elusive thing. Worth working towards, though, I think.Elizabeth Liddle
July 23, 2011
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kf:
Okay, the matter is now clear. Pardon, but in this context we have to be very careful indeed about terms like that. Self evident first principles of right reason are a very relevant issue in all this.
Cool :) And, yes. Language matters, especially when we are trying to communicate from very different positions and, indeed, usages. It's a point I have made myself a few times :)Elizabeth Liddle
July 23, 2011
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F/N: Maybe some voltage turning down is in order. I come out of the Marxist era in my Uni, and am very aware of how an institutionally dominant ideology can shape perceptions in all sorts of ways. (I was once shocked in a conversation with some folks off-campus, to realise that the environment had been subtly biasing my own views, and I was a chief objector to the reigning orthodoxy!) Indeed, it can even dumb down, so that otherwise highly intelligent and reasonable people seem to lose all common sense when certain topics come up. So, let us all beware. I found that two remarks of Jesus' in the Gospel of John are highly instructive and deeply searching:
Jn 3: 19 "This, then, is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who practices wicked things hates the light and avoids it, [j] so that his deeds may not be exposed. 21 But anyone who lives by [k] the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be shown to be accomplished by God." Jn 8:43 Why don't you understand what I say? Because you cannot listen to [n] My word . . . 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. [HCSB]
We can be so indoctrinated into a system of thought or simply soak up so much of an environment that its implicit assumptions and plausibilites so colour our minds that we are literally unable to understand or appreciate something that is in fact true, because it is the truth that cuts across what we believe and think (wrongly) is right. So, we need to be very cautious indeed. Another Dominical saying is appropriate:
Mt 6:22 "The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eye is good, your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. So if the light within you is darkness—how deep is that darkness!
So, let us remember that to be human under present circumstances is to be finite, fallible, morally fallen and too often ill-willed. In that context, we need to be very careful indeed about crossing the subtle, unmarked line into the territory of willfully suppressing the truth we know or should know. The fallacy of the willfully closed mind yawns open before all of us. Let us beware. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 23, 2011
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Okay, the matter is now clear. Pardon, but in this context we have to be very careful indeed about terms like that. Self evident first principles of right reason are a very relevant issue in all this.kairosfocus
July 23, 2011
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F/N: should have added "ignorance" in there, I guess (along with stupidity, dishonesty and ideological desperation).Elizabeth Liddle
July 23, 2011
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PS: Did you mean "obviously" or "patently" or "blatantly"? As in:
I’d be interested in knowing which part of evolutionary theory people here think is self-evidently [obviously] wrong, [and on what basic grounds].
I think the most obvious errors have to do with: 1 --> Imposition of a priori materialism through the back door route of so called methodological naturalism, which begs major questions and locks us out of freely seeking the truth (however provisionally) on origins matters. 2 --> A tendency to over-read observations and take just so stores beyond their weight. 3 --> Inability to address on observational and analytical grounds the origin of functionally specific complex info, i.e. cases of FSCI E from Zones separately describable T in spaces of possibilities W requiring 500 - 1,000 or more bits of info to cover the complexity. 4 --> The related, convenient slicing off of OOL, where the answer on OOL is materially relevant to the answer on OO body plans. 5 --> Not a direct error of evolution as natural history [cf Wallace's Intelligent Evolution and many others who hold similar views] but a philosophical travelling companion that dominates what is done, evolutionary materialism, which is self refuting and inherently undermining of the credibility of mind. 6 --> and morekairosfocus
July 23, 2011
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kairosfocus: All I meant was "obviously" wrong. Perhaps even "glaringly". Please don't read more into my question than that. Several people here have implied that evolutionary theory is so obviously wrong that only stupidity, dishonesty or ideological desperation could account for its widespread acceptance. I wanted to know what the people who took that view considered so obviously wrong with it. Gil gave a couple of answers in his OP, and others have given others. But if you want to tell me what you simply think is wrong with it, that would be interesting too :)Elizabeth Liddle
July 23, 2011
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Dr Liddle: As you know the concern is that the insertion of "self-evident" imposes a fallacy of the complex question. That you insist on its retention raises a serious question as to why. Kindly explain. Especially, the perception that a question on thinking that there are SELF EVIDENT errors in a scientific matter is an "open" question. Science generally does not deal with self evident matters, but best explanations of contingent ones, i.e observations. Let's put it this way, what material would be lost from your question by rewording it in this sort of way:
I’d be interested in knowing which part of evolutionary theory people here think is self-evidently wrong, [and on what basic grounds].
And, the circularity tendency problem for NS has been seriously remarked on by others long before I came along. There are ways to formulate the theory that are not circular, but these from my recollection, are a lot less persuasive in force. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 23, 2011
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Joseph:
Elizabeth:
“Natural selection” is simply heritable differences in reproductive success.
It is differential reproduction due to heritable variation.
Sure. I don't see any essential differences between our two definitions.
Natural selection has also been called a design mimic. Is there any evidence to support that claim?
Well, not until you also supply some mechanism by which the variations are continually generated. Then you do, I'd argue, have a "design mimic" in the sense that human designers keep producing variations, keeping the ones that work, modifying them, keeping those that work, modifying those, etc. The one aspect of human design that natural selection of variation doesn't mimic is the ability to generate only prototypes with some chance of working i.e. to reject completely lunatic ideas before they even hit the drawing board. In other words, we can simulate outcomes, and test them against a goal - what I'd call "intend" things, in fact.
That said the main problem with the theory of evolution is no one knows what makes an organism what it is so therefor no one can say anything pertaining to universal common descent.
Not sure what you are getting at. Could you explain in more detail?
Also the theory doesn’t say anything about origins and seeing tat origins directly impacts any subsequent evolution it really can’t say anything at all.
Right. My own hunch (and it is not much more than that) is that Darwinian mechanisms kicked in well before anything much resembling a modern cell appeared, but I agree that so far we do not have a good account of how the first population capable of Darwinian evolution came to be, although I would certainly argue that from that point onwards, Darwinian evolution works pretty well to account for the data. With some important tweaks.Elizabeth Liddle
July 23, 2011
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The lenski e-coli studies have offered us a golf cart to tow a house.junkdnaforlife
July 23, 2011
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Elizabeth:
“Natural selection” is simply heritable differences in reproductive success.
It is differential reproduction due to heritable variation. Natural selection has also been called a design mimic. Is there any evidence to support that claim? That said the main problem with the theory of evolution is no one knows what makes an organism what it is so therefor no one can say anything pertaining to universal common descent. Also the theory doesn't say anything about origins and seeing tat origins directly impacts any subsequent evolution it really can't say anything at all.Joseph
July 23, 2011
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Hi, kairosfocus - crossposted with yours, I hope my original post is now clearer.
Dr Liddle: Pardon, but — first and foremost — do you insist on “self-evident” [in its proper sense] in your original question? As you can see from 11 above, I think — in the particular context — this implies a fallacy of the complex question, if so. I think there are quite serious and mutually reinforcing errors in the modern approach to evolution as scientific explanation of origin of body plans and in the broader sense of evolution, of life as well, cf here and following pages [esp on OO life, body plans, mind and morals -- i.e. the spiritual order of biological reality]. But, while I see some fairly seriously begged questions, some errors of analysis and some serious gaps on empirical observational support, I am not finding that much along he way of things that are not just contingently false but are necessarily and patently false by virtue of blatant absurdity, once understood. I think the two matters should now be definitively separated. Do you concur, and if not, why not? Also, why did you use this phrasing to begin with?
Simply because some people, including Gil, seem to regard (and would readily agree that they regard) aspects of evolutionary theory to be self-evidently wrong, and wonder how so many apparently smart people can be so blind. So I was interested in finding out what people thought was self-evidently wrong with evolutionary theory. Obviously my own position is that there is nothing self-evidently wrong with it, so of course I'm also interested in more subtle things that might be wrong with it! But what I was specifically asking for in that post was what people thought was self-evidently (i.e. obviously) wrong with it. If anything.
PS: Kindly observe on your clip from Darwin, a familiar reference:
In the preservation of favoured individuals and races, during the constantly-recurrent Struggle for Existence, we see the most powerful and ever-acting means of selection. The struggle for existence inevitably follows from the high geometrical ratio of increase which is common to all organic beings. This high rate of increase is proved by calculation, by the effects of a succession of peculiar seasons, and by the results of naturalisation, as explained in the third chapter. More individuals are born than can possibly survive. A grain in the balance will determine which individual shall live and which shall die, — which variety or species shall increase in number, and which shall decrease, or finally become extinct. As the individuals of the same species come in all respects into the closest competition with each other, the struggle will generally be most severe between them; it will be almost equally severe between the varieties of the same species, and next in severity between the species of the same genus.
It seems that Darwin’s view was resolutely and robustly malthusian. And the evidence that points away from a general malthusian struggle for existence to that extent undermines the original concept of natural selection, which is the key persuasive concept in the original darwinism. That is what is still very much lurking in the background of a lot of thought on the subject, even among the educated, and it must be frankly faced and explicitly corrected.
Well, I would agree that simple malthusianism doesn't account for all the evidence. For example, I've already pointed to sexual selection as another factor, which isn't accommodated in a malthusian model. And although malthusian boom-bust ecologies exist (lemmings; caribou) much more gentle cybernetic ecologies also exist (the finches of the Galapagos, for example). You may be right that the original formulation still dominates biology, but I don't actually think so. Population genetics has moved a long way since Darwin!
More modern views on subtleties of differential reproductive success, in backing away from the above, tend strongly to instead become circular, as has been pointed out. It is possible to formulate a modern approach on things like founder effects, chance occurrences, niches, hill climbing advantages etc, but the overall framework still tends to fall into circles: the naturally selected are the ones who were most successful, and they are by definition the best adapted because they were the most successful.
Yes, but it's only circular because you've expressed it in a circular manner. It need not be. I would phrase it simply as: heritable traits that tend to promote survival will tend to be best represented in the next generation. That's all natural selection is - it's not so much circular as, well, self-evident! So obviously true that it almost sounds like a tautology. "Natural selection" is simply heritable differences in reproductive success. It's not an external agent, nor even an agent at all. It's just what will, inevitably happen if a population carries heritable variance in reproductive success.
What I consistently find is absence of a cogent account of the arrival of the fittest or best adapted, especially when the body plan origin threshold is reached.
OK, that sounds interesting. What do you mean by "the body plan origin threshold?"
I also find the claim that NS is “non random” — which seems to be a major rhetorically persuasive point [I think it leads many to imagine that this is a proved, certain conclusion and thus the things that go with it ride in on its coat-tails] — is irritatingly flawed, as patently a shift in odds of survival is a random variable issue.
Yes, it's a poor phrase, and it sets my teeth on edge every time Dawkins uses it. Much better, IMO, to think of each generation being a sampling of traits of the previous one, and that sampling to be a biased sampling i.e. biased in favour of traits that tend to promote reproductive success. But of course, many things contribute to reproductive success, including sheer luck, so the bias may, in at least some generations, be overwhelmed by purely stochastic effects - a generally useful allele may drop in frequency simply because some clumsy human stepped on an entire section of the population that just happened to have a high prevalence of that allele. So I'd say "biased in favour of reproductive success" rather than "non-random" myself.Elizabeth Liddle
July 23, 2011
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kairosfocus:
Folks: There is a complex fallacy question at work. Self evidence. That which is self evident is not only obviously true on understanding it, but also patently NECESSARILY true, on pain of reduction of blatant absurdity. Darwinism on the body plan evo level may lack empirical and analytical support [infinite monkeys issues], but the breakdowns are not on matters that are self-evident. So, let us not fall into that trap. Dr Liddle needs to correct her question, so that it is not a complex one of the ilk “have you stopped beating your wife?”
I am more than happy to rephrase my question, especially now that it has become the subject of a general thread. I originally posed it here as:
I’d be interested in knowing which part of evolutionary theory people here think is self-evidently wrong.
I hereby amend that to:
I’d be interested in knowing which part of evolutionary theory, if any people here think is self-evidently wrong.
Insertion in bold.
Such heads I win, tails you lose questions, are not good enough. GEM of TKI
Well, it was an open-ended question, but I hope it is now even more open-ended. I'd also be interested in what people think is wrong with evolutionary theory that isn't immediately self-evident.Elizabeth Liddle
July 23, 2011
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Chris:
I think the part (any part!) that is supposedly supported by overwhelming mountains of evidence. The first thing you notice when you search for it is that it’s nowhere to be found. Definitely a case of the Emperor’s New Clothes!
Well, this is why I asked "which part"? For example, I'd say there really are (literally!) mountains of evidence for common descent. This includes the ready distribution of living organisms into deeply nested phylogenies (as Linnaeus noted), into which vast numbers of fossilised organisms (chalk, for instance, is pretty well all fossil) can be readily placed. In fact, at least some IDists I gather accept the evidence for common descent. I haven't finished Meyer's book yet, but from what I've read so far, he seems to; so does Behe, I think, and I had an idea that Dembski did as well. That was part of what I was interested in finding out when I asked my question - how many people here think that the evidence supports common descent, and how many do not? Because that makes quite a difference: if common descent is incorrect, then clearly we cannot invoke Darwinian evolution to account for the origin of species (although it might come in handy to explain "microevolution). However, if common descent is correct, then then the objections to Darwinian evolution to account for the diversification become less clear to me, although the objection that no-one has yet provided a convincing account of how the first organism capable of Darwinian evolution came to be seems to have somewhat more force. But in that case, it shouldn't be Darwin in the dock, but the OOL people :) As for the "overwhelming evidence" not for common descent (which I think is pretty overwhelming, especially given the substantial consilience between genetically and anatomically derived phylogenies), but for Darwinian adaptation, that also seems to be pretty subtantial to me, and I would say that: 1. Field studies 2. Lab studies 3. Computational studies 4. Logic! all support the hypothesis that Darwinian mechanisms result in adaptation of populations to their environment. So Chris: what is your position on common descent? Do you think the evidence supports it?Elizabeth Liddle
July 23, 2011
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Dr Liddle: Pardon, but -- first and foremost -- do you insist on "self-evident" [in its proper sense] in your original question? As you can see from 11 above, I think -- in the particular context -- this implies a fallacy of the complex question, if so. I think there are quite serious and mutually reinforcing errors in the modern approach to evolution as scientific explanation of origin of body plans and in the broader sense of evolution, of life as well, cf here and following pages [esp on OO life, body plans, mind and morals -- i.e. the spiritual order of biological reality]. But, while I see some fairly seriously begged questions, some errors of analysis and some serious gaps on empirical observational support, I am not finding that much along he way of things that are not just contingently false but are necessarily and patently false by virtue of blatant absurdity, once understood. I think the two matters should now be definitively separated. Do you concur, and if not, why not? Also, why did you use this phrasing to begin with? GEM of TKI PS: Kindly observe on your clip from Darwin, a familiar reference:
In the preservation of favoured individuals and races, during the constantly-recurrent Struggle for Existence, we see the most powerful and ever-acting means of selection. The struggle for existence inevitably follows from the high geometrical ratio of increase which is common to all organic beings. This high rate of increase is proved by calculation, by the effects of a succession of peculiar seasons, and by the results of naturalisation, as explained in the third chapter. More individuals are born than can possibly survive. A grain in the balance will determine which individual shall live and which shall die, — which variety or species shall increase in number, and which shall decrease, or finally become extinct. As the individuals of the same species come in all respects into the closest competition with each other, the struggle will generally be most severe between them; it will be almost equally severe between the varieties of the same species, and next in severity between the species of the same genus.
It seems that Darwin's view was resolutely and robustly malthusian. And the evidence that points away from a general malthusian struggle for existence to that extent undermines the original concept of natural selection, which is the key persuasive concept in the original darwinism. That is what is still very much lurking in the background of a lot of thought on the subject, even among the educated, and it must be frankly faced and explicitly corrected. More modern views on subtleties of differential reproductive success, in backing away from the above, tend strongly to instead become circular, as has been pointed out. It is possible to formulate a modern approach on things like founder effects, chance occurrences, niches, hill climbing advantages etc, but the overall framework still tends to fall into circles: the naturally selected are the ones who were most successful, and they are by definition the best adapted because they were the most successful. What I consistently find is absence of a cogent account of the arrival of the fittest or best adapted, especially when the body plan origin threshold is reached. I also find the claim that NS is "non random" -- which seems to be a major rhetorically persuasive point [I think it leads many to imagine that this is a proved, certain conclusion and thus the things that go with it ride in on its coat-tails] -- is irritatingly flawed, as patently a shift in odds of survival is a random variable issue.kairosfocus
July 23, 2011
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Is it that you are simply too stupid to reason properly and to understand the corrections to your expressed reasoning and asserted “facts” offered to you by Mung, and KF, and Nullasalus, and many others?
You seem to be laboring under the assumption that these 'corrections' are actually correct. From what I can see many of them are not. Your's, KF's and Mungs sincere belief does not mean they are.
Maybe it’s only because I’m a man myself, but if I simply must witness intellectual dishonesty, I prefer it to be of the “manly” variety.
Are you man enough to say sorry for your grossly sexist attitude? I'm glad to see that UD maintains its high standards for civility!DrBot
July 23, 2011
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Ilion:
EL: “But not here, please.” The author of the OP introduced the sub-topic in the OP.
As you wish.
“The least you can do is to make the same assumption about me unless you have clear evidence to the contrary, in which case please present it.” And by “clear evidence to the contrary” she means “something I can’t lie about”. But, of course, anyone can lie about anything.
By "clear evidence ot the contrary" I mean "clear evidence to the contrary" no more no less.
EL: “The least you can do is to make the same assumption about me …” It is no longer a reasonable assumption to make concerning you. Your continued behavior removes option 2) (see post # 18) as a rational possible explanation for your continued and multifarious assertions of falsehood and un-reason.
I am still waiting for evidence of this "continued and multifarious assertions of falsehood and un-reason". Unless you simply mean statements and claims of mine with which you disagree. Which would be affirming your consequent rather.
Should I move to option 1) as the rational explanation for your continued error? Is it that you are simply too stupid to reason properly and to understand the corrections to your expressed reasoning and asserted “facts” offered to you by Mung, and KF, and Nullasalus, and many others?
Well, you could start by justifying your assumption of "error". The fact that you think I am wrong is not prima facie evidence that I am. Nor is the fact that I remain unpersuaded by you, kf, Mung et al is also not prima facie evidence that I am either stupid or dishonest. You have excluded a rather important middle.
The major difference between what you do here and what, say, Nick Matzke does, is that you are passive-aggressive in your intellectual dishonesty and he is direct in his intellectual dishonesty. To put it another way, you approach the task of presenting to the world your intellectual dishonesty in the manner that a woman (or an academic) tends to do, whereas he (generally) performs the task in the manner that a man tends to do.
Bullshit.
Maybe it’s only because I’m a man myself, but if I simply must witness intellectual dishonesty, I prefer it to be of the “manly” variety.
I don't prefer any kind of dishonesty. Which is why I choose to be honest.Elizabeth Liddle
July 23, 2011
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Mung:
Let’s start with the most basic of all, which is that all organisms at all times and everywhere produce more offspring than there are resources available to support those offspring, thus requiring that they compete for scarce resources in order to survive.
Well, I would agree that that is untrue. But, interestingly, it is not even what Darwin said, and we have moved a long way from Darwin. In Origin, Darwin wrote:
In the preservation of favoured individuals and races, during the constantly-recurrent Struggle for Existence, we see the most powerful and ever-acting means of selection. The struggle for existence inevitably follows from the high geometrical ratio of increase which is common to all organic beings. This high rate of increase is proved by calculation, by the effects of a succession of peculiar seasons, and by the results of naturalisation, as explained in the third chapter. More individuals are born than can possibly survive. A grain in the balance will determine which individual shall live and which shall die, -- which variety or species shall increase in number, and which shall decrease, or finally become extinct. As the individuals of the same species come in all respects into the closest competition with each other, the struggle will generally be most severe between them; it will be almost equally severe between the varieties of the same species, and next in severity between the species of the same genus. But the struggle will often be very severe between beings most remote in the scale of nature. The slightest advantage in one being, at any age or during any season, over those with which it comes into competition, or better adaptation in however slight a degree to the surrounding physical conditions, will turn the balance.
my bold This is not the same as saying "all organisms at all times and everywhere produce more offspring than there are resources available to support those offspring, thus requiring that they compete for scarce resources in order to survive." Clearly, many populations of organisms produce offspring at a maintenance rate that can be supported by their environment - we say these populations are in equilibrium with their environment. What Darwin was saying, and it remains the core of evolutionary theory, is that any heritable traits that confer greater probability of survival within the current environment will have increased prevalence in the next generation. He didn't put it quite like that, but that's the essence of natural selection. We know now of course that there is much more to selection than competition for nutritional resources - competition for mates is also crucial, in sexually reproducing populations. We also know that drift itself is important, and that the population itself, as it evolves, becomes part of the fitness landscape. But no part of evolutionary theory, either Darwin's or the state-of-the-art posits that "all organisms at all times and everywhere produce more offspring than there are resources available". It is self-evidently wrong alright, but it isn't part of evolutionary theory!Elizabeth Liddle
July 23, 2011
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EL: "But not here, please." The author of the OP introduced the sub-topic in the OP. "The least you can do is to make the same assumption about me unless you have clear evidence to the contrary, in which case please present it." And by "clear evidence to the contrary" she means "something I can't lie about". But, of course, anyone can lie about anything. EL: "The least you can do is to make the same assumption about me ..." It is no longer a reasonable assumption to make concerning you. Your continued behavior removes option 2) (see post # 18) as a rational possible explanation for your continued and multifarious assertions of falsehood and un-reason. Should I move to option 1) as the rational explanation for your continued error? Is it that you are simply too stupid to reason properly and to understand the corrections to your expressed reasoning and asserted “facts” offered to you by Mung, and KF, and Nullasalus, and many others? The major difference between what you do here and what, say, Nick Matzke does, is that you are passive-aggressive in your intellectual dishonesty and he is direct in his intellectual dishonesty. To put it another way, you approach the task of presenting to the world your intellectual dishonesty in the manner that a woman (or an academic) tends to do, whereas he (generally) performs the task in the manner that a man tends to do. Maybe it’s only because I’m a man myself, but if I simply must witness intellectual dishonesty, I prefer it to be of the “manly” variety.Ilion
July 23, 2011
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GP:
"I do believe that the drawing motive in the evolution of biological complexity is the same as in human artifacts: life (or the designer of life) just tries to express new functions, to realize new and higher forms which can do things that lower forms cannot do."
Exactly what drives new technology.junkdnaforlife
July 23, 2011
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Gil:
2) The biologically creative evolutionary power of stochastic events filtered by natural selection. This proposition is dead-simply, obviously, and empirically unreasonable (except in isolated pathological instances such as bacterial antibiotic resistance, in which case the probabilistic resources are available to allow informational degradation to provide a temporary survival advantage). Natural selection is irrelevant. Throwing out failed experiments does nothing to increase the creative power of random events. Simple combinatorial mathematics render the stochastic proposition completely unreasonable.
I'm not sure what you are saying here. Certainly "Throwing out failed experiments does nothing to increase the creative power of random events". But, in a human designer, throwing out failed experiments is an exercise in creative power, or can be, as long as there is a steady supply of fresh experiments! But your main point seems to be that mutations inevitably cause "informational degradation", so that even if a mutation provides a "temporary survival advantage" ultimately, every mutation will contribute in the end to "genetic meltdown" unless some other factor (Intelligently Designed, presumably), prevents it. Do I have this approximately right? And could I also ask you to explain slightly more fully what you mean by "Simple combinatorial mathematics render the stochastic proposition completely unreasonable."? Cheers LizzieElizabeth Liddle
July 23, 2011
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1.) Gradualism: Cambrian. 2.) Natural selection: Lenski's e-coli Does 2 show a sufficient mechanism to produce 1? Hell no. Darwin was wrong. Something is missing.junkdnaforlife
July 23, 2011
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Gil: I agree with kf that it is better not to speak of "self-evidence". I would just say that those parts are obviously, reasonably wrong. That said, I really agree with you about the two points. Only, I would put the generation of comlex functional information information by neo darwinian mechanisms at the first place, followed by the gradualism, just because I believe the first point is by far more important. I would like to add a third point, one that is maybe rarely mentioned, but which IMO is very imortant. The basic point of neo darwinism is that complexity arises in the course of natural history because it is drawn essentially by reproductive advantage. I don't believe that to be true at all. For all we know, also from our programming experience as humans, complexity is introduces in machines essentially for a very general motivation: to allow new functionalities, to do things that it was impossible to do with simpler machines. In no way that helps "survival", or, simply, safety. Complexity, indeed, in most cases creates new frailties, new risks of errors. Complex things are more difficult to manage and to preserve. They often require an additional burden of further complexity just to manage the errors. And even that is usually not efficient enough. So, we could say that, when we engineer things, we add complexity because we want new functionalities, and we pay for that complexity in many ways, including errors and problems of "survival". IMO, the same thing is true for biological life. I really don't understand how darwinists may think that reproductive gain is the engine of evolution, and of emergence of complexity. How can we negate that the most succsessful reproductors in the whole history of our planet are prokaryotes? They still are the real masters of our planet, both in terms of number and reproduction rate. If the true "purpose" of egoist genes is just to survive, what better form of survival than the bacterial form? And, to go to another level, let us just compare the survival and reproductive abilities of mammals with those of coxroaches, or rats. I do believe that the drawing motive in the evolution of biological complexity is the same as in human artifacts: life (or the designer of life) just tries to express new functions, to realize new and higher forms which can do things that lower forms cannot do. The cost in complexity for those new functions is heavy, and of course the survival and reproduction of the new forms must be ensured too. But in no way is survival or reproductiove advantage the true reason for new complexity. Purpose and function are the true reasons.gpuccio
July 23, 2011
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Well, that attempt to link directly to the post didn't work ... it's comment #7 in this threadIlion
July 23, 2011
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KF @ 13: "BTW, where is the original question, please?" hereIlion
July 23, 2011
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Ilion:
Yes, it’s always a “slur” to speak the truth that others do not wish to have spoken.
Possibly. I guess people will tend to regard aspersions on their integrity as a "slur" whether or not it is justified. But in this case it is not justified. I do not lie, Ilion, and I have not lied on this forum. If you want to discuss my integrity, ask one of the board leaders to start a thread, where I can defend myself without derailing a thread about something interesting. But I don't take kindly to having my integrity impugned, and I'm not going to let unsupported accusations sit here unaddressed. I post in good faith, and I assume others do so as well. The least you can do is to make the same assumption about me unless you have clear evidence to the contrary, in which case please present it. But not here, please.Elizabeth Liddle
July 23, 2011
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Gil:
1) Gradualism. Attempts to cram the fossil evidence into the gradualistic model display transparent desperation to make the evidence fit the theory. The fossil record testifies consistently and persuasively to three things: stasis, abrupt extinction, and abrupt appearance of new functional life forms. In addition, common sense argues that there is no gradualistic pathway for almost any biologically complex and functionally integrated system. A simple example is the avian lung. There is no conceivably logical gradualistic pathway from a reptilian bellows lung to an avian circulatory lung, because the intermediates would immediately die of asphyxiation. Furthermore, attempts by Darwinists to explain away this kind of obvious problem strike ID folks — we consider ourselves, by the way, to be the real “free thinkers” concerning origins — as desperate attempts motivated by a desire to defend a theory in evidential and logical crisis.
Interesting. Do you also regard this evidence as evidence against common descent? If so, what do you think the family tree of life might look like? If not, what to you hypothesise as the explanation for the appearance of abrupt life forms? For instance, do you think that at key moments in life's history, a novel set of genes were inserted into the genome of existing species? While waiting for your response to those questions, I'll try to explain my own response to your take on the evidence:
The fossil record testifies consistently and persuasively to three things: stasis, abrupt extinction, and abrupt appearance of new functional life forms.
A couple of points. Firstly, the fossil record is not merely a sparse random sampling, it's also a biased sampling. Fossilisation is a rare occurrence, and is more likely in some habitats than others. Organisms that live in habitats not conducive to fossilisation (forests, for instance) will be sampled less frequently than organisms that live in more fossilogenic (if there is such a word) enviroments. So the first thing to consider is whether the "abrupt changes" are in fact "abrupt changes" to the population, or rather abrupt changes to the habitat in which they live. Secondly, there is nothing in evolutionary theory that says extinction won't be abrupt! What evolutionary theory says is that evolution won't be. But even there, nothing in evolutionary theory says that rate of evolution won't fluctuate, nor that populations will not go through long periods of stasis. Indeed, the reverse is true - Darwin's theory was that population adapt to environments. And so you would expect that the rate of change (evolution) in a population would track the rate of change in the environment, and we know that some environments are very stable (oceans, for instance) and some environments much less so. Not only that, but a population can move through different environments, or remain in the same one; or can subdivide into two populations, in which one remains in the original environment, where it is already at an optimum, and remains in "stasis" while the other migrates to a new environment and adapts, independently of its sister population, to that new environment. You would therefore expect to see examples of both stasis (populations already optimally adapted to a stable environment) and relatively rapid change (populations adapting to a new environment, or to a rapidly changing one). And we know from field studies that evolution (often called "micro-evolution") can occur very rapidly, with noticeably environmentally-linked changes to phenotypic and genotypic frequences even from generation to generation. Now, I know that evolution-skeptics insist that there are limits to "micro-evolution" - and I'd agree that there are probably limits to the rate of change, the limit being the production rate of novel potentially beneficial alleles, but I'm not convinced that that rate is so slow as to be unable to account for the geologically "rapid" (but still very slow) transitions we see in the fossil record.
In addition, common sense argues that there is no gradualistic pathway for almost any biologically complex and functionally integrated system. A simple example is the avian lung. There is no conceivably logical gradualistic pathway from a reptilian bellows lung to an avian circulatory lung, because the intermediates would immediately die of asphyxiation.
Well, I'd need more argumentation to be convinced that there is "no conceivably logical gradualistic pathway from a reptilian bellows lung to an avian circulatory lung" (my italics) :) Not just appeal to "common sense"! And, as you are probably aware, people are researching this very topic. There's a paper in Nature here if you are interested: http://www.minotstateu.edu/biology/pdf/Avian-theropodpulmonarydesign.pdf Of course it may be wrong, but it seems both logical and gradualistic to me. And someone conceived it :)
Furthermore, attempts by Darwinists to explain away this kind of obvious problem strike ID folks — we consider ourselves, by the way, to be the real “free thinkers” concerning origins — as desperate attempts motivated by a desire to defend a theory in evidential and logical crisis.
Well, I understand the reaction, but that doesn't necessary mean it is justified :) That's why I wanted to know what people saw as the self-evident problems in evolutionary theory. It still seems to me that the theory is both logical AND supported by evidence, even though the exact pathway for any one feature may be impossible to determine with complete confidence, and for many features the evidence to decide one way or the other may simply be forever unavailable. What is much clearer, it seems to me, is that deeply nested phylogenies can be readily constructed. For me that is very strong evidence for common descent, as well as for gradual change (though fluctuating). That in itself doesn't rule out something other than Darwinian mechanisms, but it doesn't rule out Darwinian mechanisms either IMO. Futhermore, some key transitions (e.g. the tetrapod transition), which were strongly predicted by any common descent theory (essential to it) and for which fossil evidence was lacking for a while, have now been filled out, interestingly by using predictive hypotheses as to where such fossils, if they were to be exist, would be findable. And they were. Anyway, that's my response to your first choice of problem :) I'll take a look at your second now, and also await your answers to my questions with interest.Elizabeth Liddle
July 23, 2011
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Ilion: "The key phrase there is “for as long as we reasonably can“. Word.junkdnaforlife
July 23, 2011
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