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Which Part of Evolutionary Theory is Self-Evidently Wrong?

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UD’s dear commenter Elizabeth Liddle (whom I greatly admire for her respectful dissent from our dissent from evolutionary orthodoxy) asks the question in the title of my post.

Upon hearing this challenge my first reaction was, Where to begin? I’ll begin with two self-evidently wrong propositions of evolutionary theory.

1) Gradualism. Attempts to cram the fossil evidence into the gradualistic model display transparent desperation to make the evidence fit the theory. The fossil record testifies consistently and persuasively to three things: stasis, abrupt extinction, and abrupt appearance of new functional life forms. In addition, common sense argues that there is no gradualistic pathway for almost any biologically complex and functionally integrated system. A simple example is the avian lung. There is no conceivably logical gradualistic pathway from a reptilian bellows lung to an avian circulatory lung, because the intermediates would immediately die of asphyxiation.

Furthermore, attempts by Darwinists to explain away this kind of obvious problem strike ID folks — we consider ourselves, by the way, to be the real “free thinkers” concerning origins — as desperate attempts motivated by a desire to defend a theory in evidential and logical crisis.

2) The biologically creative evolutionary power of stochastic events filtered by natural selection.

This proposition is dead-simply, obviously, and empirically unreasonable (except in isolated pathological instances such as bacterial antibiotic resistance, in which case the probabilistic resources are available to allow informational degradation to provide a temporary survival advantage). Natural selection is irrelevant. Throwing out failed experiments does nothing to increase the creative power of random events. Simple combinatorial mathematics render the stochastic proposition completely unreasonable.

The two examples I’ve provided I find to be self-evidently wrong.

Comments
Gil: "A simple example [of gradualism gone wrong, and insisted upon in the face of all reason] is the avian lung..." Likewise with the alleged shift from the reptilian jaw to the mammalian jaw: the necessary intermediaries would starve to death.Ilion
July 23, 2011
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Yes, it's always a "slur" to speak the truth that others do not wish to have spoken.Ilion
July 23, 2011
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KF @ 12: "PPS: To those of us who have un-begged the question, someone still tied up in the tangles of the begged questions - their name is Legion - may seem like one willfully in disregard of the truth with deceptive intent. I think we have to draw the line at willful, stubborn, plainly dishonest resistance to correction and presentation of corrected falsehood as if it were incontrovertible, to those who do not have easy access to the correction, i.e it is the refusal to entertain genuine dialogue and the pretence that those who differ are ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked that are diagnostic." I *think* I understand what you have said; and if so, I quite agree. I *think* that what you said encompasses two of the three prongs of my tripartite high-level explanation for (and test of) why a person believes or asserts what is false. If a person believes or asserts what is false, there are three, and only three, broad categories of explanation for why he does so: 1) inability to understand the truth of the matter; 2) misunderstanding of the truth of the matter; 3) disinclination to understand (or state) the truth of the matter. To say that option 1) is the general explanation of why the one with whom one disagrees continues to disagree, despite one's fine efforts to show him the truth of the matter, is to assert that that person is too stupid to understand the matter. I don’t believe we ever have justification for believing this about anyone, not even of the severely retarded. But, if one does believe this to be the case, then why in the hell is one harassing the poor unfortunate soul? To say that option 2) is the general explanation of why the one with whom one disagrees continues to disagree, despite one's fine efforts to show him the truth of the matter, is to assert that that person doesn’t correctly understand something or other (either about one's argument or about some logically prior point), and that that misunderstanding explains why he believes contrary to the truth of the matter. That is, his belief is erroneous, but it is honest error; and once the misunderstanding is identifies and corrected, one reasonably expects that he will cease his disagreement. Charity - and reason and our own (alleged) commitment to truth, themselves - demand that we assume, for as long as we reasonably can, that option 2) is the explanation for why the other disagrees with us. To say that option 3) is the general explanation of why the one with whom one disagrees continues to disagree, despite one's fine efforts to show him the truth of the matter, is to assert that that person is not interested in asserting (or knowing) the truth of the matter. This covers a gamut; everything from that he’s not really interested in the matter (for example: he may not actually be arguing with you, it may just be that you are being a boor and a bore) to that he is lying about specific facts of the matter to that he is engaging in intellectual dishonesty. Charity - and reason and our own (alleged) commitment to truth, themselves - demand that we assume, for as long as we reasonably can, that option 3) is *not* the explanation for why the other disagrees with us. The key phrase there is "for as long as we reasonably can". When it becomes clear -- due to the other person's behavior -- that option 2) can no longer reasonably be held to be the explanation for why he continues to assert what is false, then *we* engage in dishonesty if we continue to assert that option 2) is the case ... and, moreso if we then attack our erstwhile allies who have reasonably abandoned option 2) for option 3).Ilion
July 23, 2011
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Mung wrote:
I’ll resist the temptation to post clear examples of such, not because there are not many examples available, but because I’m interested in keeping to the topic raised in the OP.
What other way to interpret this is there, than as "my slur on Lizzie's integrity is correct and relevant, but I won't support it because that would be off topic"? Yes, it would indeed be off topic, and so is your slur, and so is Ilion's. Thank you Gil for your kind words,and for elevating my question to an OP. I look forward to reading to the responses and responding to them. If anyone wants to make a second thread in which my integrity can be questioned, I'd be delighted to defend any accusations there, as long as they are supported by, you know, evidence. We all agree that evidence matters, right? Now, back to your regular scheduled program on self-evident problems with evolutionary theory....Elizabeth Liddle
July 23, 2011
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LAUNCHED; TWT, Y and DK et al, kindly note, esp here.kairosfocus
July 23, 2011
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"Which Part of '[Modern] Evolutionary Theory' is Self-Evidently Wrong?" That 'modern evolutionary theory' is modern. That 'modern evolutionary theory' is evolutionary. That 'modern evolutionary theory' is a theory.Ilion
July 23, 2011
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GilDodgen: "As a Christian and former atheist, I disagree with you about Liz." What does "As a Christian and former atheist" have to do with my criticism of your willingness to overlook the unpleasant truth -- worse than overlook, which is sometimes a good thing to do, for you are asserting the intentionally opposite of the truth.Ilion
July 23, 2011
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BTW, where is the original question, please?kairosfocus
July 23, 2011
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PS: The key blunder in how modern evolutionary biology is thought about is probably the implicit assumption of evolutionary materialism, presented as a redefinition of science on "centuries old" methodological naturalism, so called. As Johnson pointed out, that major begging of the question -- see how often this keeps cropping up -- makes something like Darwinism seem true almost by definition. PPS: To those of us who have un-begged the question, someone still tied up in the tangles of the begged questions -- their name is Legion -- may seem like one willfully in disregard of the truth with deceptive intent. I think we have to draw the line at willful, stubborn, plainly dishonest resistance to correction and presentation of corrected falsehood as if it were incontrovertible, to those who do not have easy access to the correction, i.e it is the refusal to entertain genuine dialogue and the pretence that those who differ are ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked that are diagnostic. (That is where I think the plainly fabricated internet persona Mathgrrl -- itself apparently a stolen monicker -- crossed the line.) PPS: Well, well, well, Wiki has a very good against-interest definition of lie! let's grab it before it gets twisted. (Too late Wiki Political Correctness monitors, it is now in the vaults.) --> In all its glory (and note how my point about passive lying by willful deceptiveness in the teeth of what one knows or should know is pretty directly implied, MG, TWT, Y et al . . . the latter know or should know that they have made a long list of reckless and slanderously false accusations in public and have said some things that boil down to the mafioso threat I have complained officially against (we know you, we know where you are, we know those you care about), etc etc etc -- and Mr Matzke et al, you know or should know that creationism and design theory are quite distinct, and more . . . ):
To lie is to state something with disregard to the truth with the intention that people will accept the statement as truth . . . . even a true statement can be used to deceive. In this situation, it is the intent of being overall untruthful rather than the truthfulness of any individual statement that is considered the lie . . . . One can state part of the truth out of context, knowing that without complete information, it gives a false impression. Likewise, one can actually state accurate facts, yet deceive with them . . . . One lies by omission when omitting an important fact, deliberately leaving another person with a misconception. Lying by omission includes failures to correct pre-existing misconceptions. Also known as a continuing misrepresentation . . . . A misleading statement is one where there is no outright lie, but still retains the purpose of getting someone to believe in an untruth . . .
--> Locked-in, tracking and ready to launch . . .kairosfocus
July 23, 2011
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Folks: There is a complex fallacy question at work. Self evidence. That which is self evident is not only obviously true on understanding it, but also patently NECESSARILY true, on pain of reduction of blatant absurdity. Darwinism on the body plan evo level may lack empirical and analytical support [infinite monkeys issues], but the breakdowns are not on matters that are self-evident. So, let us not fall into that trap. Dr Liddle needs to correct her question, so that it is not a complex one of the ilk "have you stopped beating your wife?" Such heads I win, tails you lose questions, are not good enough. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 22, 2011
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I think the part (any part!) that is supposedly supported by overwhelming mountains of evidence. The first thing you notice when you search for it is that it's nowhere to be found. Definitely a case of the Emperor's New Clothes! Great OP by GilDodgen, I hope as many people as possible, from both sides, chip in.Chris Doyle
July 22, 2011
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I'd be interested in knowing which part of evolutionary theory people here think is self-evidently wrong.
The presumption that unguided forces can create and coordinate the representations and protocols that make the existence of information possible.Upright BiPed
July 22, 2011
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Skipped over Mung #5 . . . I'm not sure Darwinists would state it as strongly as you do: all organisms, all times, everywhere, etc. But I get your point, and I agree that the whole idea of competition to the death for scarcity of resources being some kind of semi-omnipresent fact of nature is simply not supported by the evidence. The Malthusian underpinnings of the theory do not serve it well. There are certainly plenty of examples of resource scarcity and what appears to be the cold, hard, cruel hand of nature to make us sit up and take notice, but there are also so many exceptions that it is not at all clear which is actually the rule and which is the exception. Certainly the idea that populations are so carefully balanced on a razor's edge to the point that a "slight modification" (as Darwin put it) would alter the entire balance of survival, while, again, true in some instances, is by no means a universal phenomenon.Eric Anderson
July 22, 2011
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"(except in isolated pathological instances such as bacterial antibiotic resistance, in which case the probabilistic resources are available to allow informational degradation to provide a temporary survival advantage)" Gil, good post. With respect to the above paranthetical, these kinds of events (which even then are more rare than some like to suppose) hardly constitute an example of evolutionary "creative power," as they almost inevitably involve a loss of specificity, loss of original function, breakage of a useful system, etc. In most cases these kinds of events are really little more than dumb luck that a breakage happened to provide a slight advantage (usually temporary). I know you are saying the same thing. johnnyb is right that the few cases in which there are useful mutations going on generally seem to be the result of a planned/coordinated process. I'd have to agree that #2 is on my list. The idea of the alleged evolutionary process generating the complex specified information evident in life is just ludicrous -- absolutely laughable.Eric Anderson
July 22, 2011
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As for explicit statements of evolutionary theory, I'm going to go with Gil's #2 - the fact that natural selection is a sufficient force for biological creativity. Most people don't realize that most of the interesting mutations actually *aren't* haphazard events, but rather organized cellular responses. For those not aware of this idea, I will offer two of my own articles on this idea (each article links to several others): 1) My Ignite Tulsa talk on whether interesting mutations are accidental or prescribed (only 5 minutes) 2) My response to Merlin's defense of Darwinism 3) My article on a creation-oriented classification of mutations Another issue for me is a more philosophical/implicit claim of evolutionary theory - that biological organisms (including humans) are only material. A good discussion of this is Marilyn Robinson's book Absence of Mindjohnnyb
July 22, 2011
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Elizabeth Liddle:
I’d be interested in knowing which part of evolutionary theory people here think is self-evidently wrong.
Let’s start with the most basic of all, which is that all organisms at all times and everywhere produce more offspring than there are resources available to support those offspring, thus requiring that they compete for scarce resources in order to survive.Mung
July 22, 2011
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I have not found Liz to be a liar in any sense of the word.
To lie is to state something with disregard to the truth with the intention that people will accept the statement as truth. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie I'll resist the temptation to post clear examples of such, not because there are not many examples available, but because I'm interested in keeping to the topic raised in the OP.Mung
July 22, 2011
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Ilion, As a Christian and former atheist, I disagree with you about Liz. She has made her case, and I've found nothing about her comments to be disrespectful. She should be welcomed with open arms on our forum as an advocate of the opposition view. I have not found Liz to be a liar in any sense of the word. She has simply presented her case based on her background. We present our case, the Darwinists present their case, and evidence, logic, and truth will inevitably win.GilDodgen
July 22, 2011
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Which Part of Evolutionary Theory is Self-Evidently Wrong? This ought to be interesting to see what people think 'best captures the self evidently wrongness' of Darwinism!... I think this following quote get fairly close to best capturing the self-evident wrongness of neo-Darwinism; “an attempt to explain the formation of the genetic code from the chemical components of DNA… is comparable to the assumption that the text of a book originates from the paper molecules on which the sentences appear, and not from any external source of information.” Dr. Wilder-Smithbornagain77
July 22, 2011
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"(whom I greatly admire for her respectful dissent from our dissent from evolutionary orthodoxy)" I think you have a strange definition of "respectful" -- she doesn't have enought respect for the people here to argue in an honest fashion, and she'll lie to your face in her "arguments", but she does avoid the frothing-at-the-mouth dishing out of insults that is the more typical behavior of DarwinDefenders.Ilion
July 22, 2011
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