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Who doubts common descent? You’d be surprised

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Here at Uncommon Descent, a longish combox discussion started recently – which spread here after I reposted some of my own comments at the Post-Darwinist – on whether the intelligent design guys would gain or lose credibility if they kicked out the young earth creationists (YECs, the folk who believe that the Bible teaches that the earth was created in 144 hours and therefore it must be true).

My own view is that it is politically astonishingly naive to think that the intelligent design-friendly scientists who accept universal common descent would gain anything by starting a big fight with:

(1) a lay young earth creation ministry like Answers in Genesis (which says negative things about ID from time to time)

or

(2) an astronomer-run old earth creation ministry like Hugh Ross’s Reasons to Believe (which also says negative things about ID from time to time),

let alone

(3) those YECs such as Paul Nelson who choose to work with the ID folk who accept conventional age of the earth and common ancestry.

Basically, anyone who adopts a non-materialist stance of any type on anything will be persecuted by the materialists dominant in science and public policy today. That’s just a fact. Non-materialists who squabble among themselves waste time that could be going into developing their own positions more fully. This is a matter of political common sense and actually has nothing to do with the legitimacy or usefulness of YEC ideas.

In my book, By Design or by Chance?, I took a couple of chapters to examine, in a neutral way, the origin of young earth creationism – where and how did it originate and who does it appeal to?

As a movement among American Protestants, YEC originated in the early 1960s. (Note: William Jennings Bryant of Scopes trial fame – the real trial, not the Inherit the Wind movie – was an old earth creationist like astronomer Hugh Ross.)

I personally view young earth creationism as an attempt to confront the growing impact of materialism by adopting literalist Bible interpretation. I don’t think it’s true and I don’t think it works. Beyond that, I don’t think literalism is the best way to understand the Bible. I have been criticized by YECs for my views and also by self-proclaimed Christians in science who think that I should have ridiculed YECs – as if that was going to help me or my readers understand them better.

That said, the real issues are far more complex than many people realize anyway. Paul Nelson, that YEC biologist who does work with the ID guys, wrote to me yesterday, offering a quiz of sorts, by way of illustrating the complexity:

Quick! Who said this?

1. “The phenomenon of a monophyletic origin for the universal Tree of Life probably did not occur…At the macro-scale life appears to have had many origins.”

 

2. “Darwin claimed that a unique inclusively hierarchical pattern of relationships between all organisms based on their similarities and differences [the Tree of Life (TOL)] was a fact of nature, for which evolution, and in particular a branching process of descent with modification, was the explanation. However, there is no independent evidence that the natural order is an inclusive hierarchy, and incorporation of prokaryotes into the TOL is especially

problematic. The only data sets from which we might construct a universal hierarchy including prokaryotes, the sequences of genes, often disagree and can seldom be proven to agree. Hierarchical structure can always be imposed on or extracted from such data sets by algorithms designed to do so, but at its base the universal TOL rests on an unproven assumption about pattern that, given what we know about process, is unlikely to be broadly true.”

 

Well, if these people are arguing against the proposition that all life arose from a single randomly generated cell billions of years ago, they must be raving creationist lunatics, right?

The answers, as offered by Paul Nelson

1. Malcolm Gordon, a professor of evolutionary biology at UCLA (See his 1999 paper, “The Concept of Monophyly.” for the details.)

2. W. Ford Doolittle, in his recent (2007) Inaugural Article as a foreign member of the National Academy of Sciences

Are these guys young earth creationists? Not ruddy likely. Actually, nowadays, you do not have to be a young earth creationist or any type of creationist or ID advocate to disbelieve in universal common descent from a single ancestor. Plus, he says – just to complicate the picture – most of the young ID advocates over at Telic Thoughts are “vocal advocates” of universal common descent.

The problem with multiple origins of life by chance alone is that staggering complexities face the origin of life even once. Assuming it happened a number of times without design would seem only to add to the problems faced by materialism, rather than subtracting from them.

So we live in interesting times. I think a fight between ID advocates and young earth creationists would be a sideshow compared to the growing row between materialists and non-materialists.

Here are some other stories at the Post-Darwinist:

A communist view of the intelligent design controversy? It is unlikely that Darwin’s heirs will wish to make these tributes to the master’s teachings front and centre.

ID in Italy: Italian newspapers dare to doubt Darwin?

Muslim ID advocate argues that materialism, not Christianity, is what so many Muslims hate about America

Comments
Janice There's a large number of disparate physical processes - weathering, deposition, continental drift, chemical reactions, radiometric, astronmical observations, and so forth which all agree that the earth, sun, and universe are much older than 6,000 years. While it's possible to raise arguably plausible skepticism to any one process in isolation the convergence of all of them together are IMO unassailable. Just as one might argue that any single complex protein in a living thing might be explained by chance the incredibly complex interdependent orchestration of all them together pushes chance & necessity hypotheses into the realm of impossibility.DaveScot
March 31, 2007
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SLIGHTLY OFF TOPIC but there is just so much info on this website to read that I thought I should comment on it in case some people miss this important story. The top article in the Additional Decent Column entitled "Freaky Beaky" concludes with this statement by Andre Farrar, spokesman for the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds. "Blue tits normally have short, powerful, stubby beaks that allow them to pick up insects, seeds and berries but this one clearly has a gross deformity which means he can only eat out of the side of his beak. Mr Farrar said it was difficult to say what caused the super size beak but that it may be what farmers know as "feather and beak" disease, a condition that causes abnormalities in birds." Now if there had not been human intervention (and plenty of bread dripping yum!) Freaky Beeky would have died. So this is an excellent example of mutation leading to disability and dead ends. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6506465.stmsfg
March 31, 2007
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"Furthermore, if these galaxies where colliding into each other before the supposed fall of man then it shows the universe was already in a state of decline and disorder (rather than that disorder arrising from the biblical god extracting himself from his creation)". - Acquiesce If Walter Brown and Scordova are correct about the age of the universe, then obviously our dating methods are flawed and your observation is incorrect. As someone who wants to be one of the new 'reformed' YEC's, I hope to see in the near future more thought to devoted to questions like this.sfg
March 31, 2007
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The problem with the young universe belief is more than just the speed of light, it's also the speed at which galaxies move. For example, our improved technology has now allowed us to identify galaxies which have collided into each other. Galaxies move relatively slowly, and if we assume they were not made to look like they collided, then this surely raises serious doubts about the vailidity of young universe claims (and also therefore claims regarding the earth's young age) Furthermore, if these galaxies where colliding into each other before the supposed fall of man then it shows the universe was already in a state of decline and disorder (rather than that disorder arrising from the biblical god extracting himself from his creation).Acquiesce
March 31, 2007
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Have any of you read D. Russell Humphreys' "Starlight and Time"? I know that some followers of Hugh Ross have criticised it but Humphreys appears to have answered their objections. I can't judge which side is correct and, really, I have my doubts about the Big Bang* too. My point is only that whatever Duane Gish may have said about God making sure that light from stars was immediately visible Humphreys has at least offered a science based explanation for how light from stars calculated to be millions of light years away could be seen now even if the cosmos is only about 6,000-10,000 years old. And then there is the RATE project in which helium diffusion from U->Pb decay in zircon crystals was measured and compared to the dates derived radiometrically. I've only read brief reports on the results of the work but it seems that the amount of helium found corroborates the YEC position. The long ages derived from U->Pb decay can, IIRC, be understood as the outcome of the relativistic scenario that Humphreys describes. So YECers don't just appeal to the authority of Scripture. They have also been working on resolving the apparent contradictions between their "plain" reading of Scripture and the scenarios that materialist science has produced while always acknowledging that they hold to their scientific explanations lightly. * If you've read Arp's "Seeing Red" you'll know that he argues that the red shift may have nothing to do with the Doppler effect.Janice
March 31, 2007
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Hello Sal,
Your argument assumes a person has accepted the Bible as God's word.
Yes, I see that. Earlier I qualified what I wrote, but perhaps I should still have prepended "According to the passage." Regardless of whether one accepts the Bible, is it not evident that, according to the passage, God says he created things in six days?
But such a line of argumentation is not helpful to the doubting Thomases who want to believe, but find the explanations from other believers wanting…
Yes, some of these explanations (e.g., starlight created in transit) aren't believable and might have been better replaced with a simple "we don't know how this fits in the context of the biblical account." I suppose the argument I gave may not be very helpful in the light of current scientific consensus. I would, however, contend that it's no better to say, "the Bible really does accommodate billions of years, even though it doesn't look that way" than to say "starlight really is only thousands of years old, even though it doesn't look that way." Moreover, the two "appearance" problems aren't on equal footing. In one case, we have a straightforward eyewitness account. In the other case, we are attempting to reconstruct what happened, based on what we see now, much later than the event we're trying to understand. As for Gideon: Yes, he questioned the identity of the messenger; and yes, he questioned the truth of the messenger's words. It does not appear, however, that he failed to comprehend the message. It was BECAUSE he understood it that he found it so hard to believe.
Unless physical reality is seen to be in agreement with what you laid out, the argument you presented has given good reason for people to disbelieve the Bible or at least YEC interpretations.
You're right. Given a culture in which educated people don't question that the earth is billions of years old and the universe far older, the argument I presented would logically lead to the conclusion that the biblical account isn't to be believed. I don't think this observation invalidates the argument. Nevertheless, I doubt that many people are complete strangers to the world of cognitive dissonance. If someone is attracted to Christianity, that person can shelf the "age of the earth" problem; and the day may come when he discovers that the evidence actually doesn't support an old earth so uniformly has he has been led to believe.
Gish may argue a possibly correct conclusion (YEC) with a bogus “explanation”.
Oh, I completely agree. I'm not happy either when someone reaches a right conclusion through faulty reasoning. As I've said, it's probably better to admit one doesn't have a good answer than to grasp at straws. But when you're trying to win a public argument, I suspect that's not an easy option to take. I've never debated and so don't know what sort of things the mind is able to justify under pressure.
If one backs up literalism with bogus “scientific” explanations like what Gish offered, fine minds will be driven from YEC.
Again, I agree.
Furthermore, Jesus didn't cure doubting hearts by only demanding people believe in what he said.
You're right, he didn't. He made extraordinary claims, and he did extraordinary things in order to give credibility to his claims.RickToews
March 31, 2007
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As a movement among American Protestants, YEC originated in the early 1960s. I don't think literalism is the best way to understand the Bible. ‘In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth,' that is, the substance of the heavens and the substance of the earth. So let no one think that there is anything allegorical in the works of the six days. No one can rightly say that the things that pertain to these days were symbolic. ~ Ephrem the Syrian For you seem to me, O Theophila, to have discussed those words of the Scripture amply and clearly, and to have set them forth as they are without mistake. For it is a dangerous thing wholly to despise the literal meaning, as has been said, and especially of Genesis, where the unchangeable decrees of God for the constitution of the universe are set forth ~ Methodius Whoever takes another meaning out of Scripture than the writer intended , goes astray, but not through any falsehood in Scripture. ~ Augustine They are deceived, too, by those highly mendacious documents which profess to give the history of many thousand years, though, reckoning by the sacred writings, we find that not 6000 years have yet passed. ~ Augustine If anyone does not confess that the world and all things which are contained in it, both spiritual and material, as regards their whole substance , have been produced by God from nothing, let him be anathema. ~ Vatican Ibevets
March 30, 2007
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Maybe, a very long time ago, there were many conflicting theories of origins, progressions, mutations, designs, flukes, etc. After many years, when nobody could agree, each group decided to stick to their guns, repeating their theories until theory became fact. Once facts were established they were worshipped, and many gods became the order of the day. When all the gods got into bitter fights, the people suffered terribly. Then, as if by design, the notion of one God became known. Truth was absolute, black and white were not equal; whoever followed the one God could expect better than they could have hoped for. Origins were not complicated with equations, negative energies or vacuums, strings, or unified fields of endless, imaginative concoctions... God is the origin, period. The simple truth of the matter was written down so that everybody could understand without partial differential equations, tensors, Christoffel symbols, or groups. Later, the matter of the simple truth became filled with partial differential equations and all the other shorthands of design. Some got stuck to the words of what was written, so the words became facts, and those facts then were worshipped. Others looked for the truth of the whole matter and used the words more like lyrics of praise to the truth of the one God. It wasn't long before the some and the others were tripping over each other. Then, some of the tripping became premeditated, and each blamed the other. Little by little the notion of the one God became warm and fuzzy logic relegated to cozy Sundays. The words of sense got lost in the sense of words. And so the truth of "come let us reason together" got lost in the dirty dust of gods fighting. The people suffered the consequences. Truth persevered, still offering its freedom to any and to all. Allowing invisible things to be clearly seen -- notwithstanding endless excuses.eebrom
March 30, 2007
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RickToews: So, judging from this passage, it seems evident that 1) God DID say he created this stuff in six days,
Your argument assumes a person has accepted the Bible as God's word. But such a line of argumentation is not helpful to the doubting Thomases who want to believe, but find the explanations from other believers wanting.... The question then is whether God really said that. It is perfectly natural for many (including men good men like Gideon) to: 1. doubt what they hear or read as coming from God 2. interpretations of the Bible 3. whether the Bible is true Unless physical reality is seen to be in agreement with what you laid out, the argument you presented has given good reason for people to disbelieve the Bible or at least YEC interpretations. For example, here is an excerpt from the Duane Gish-Zindler debate:
Art: And if… How would you care to objectively evaluate the fact that we can see light from stars that are more than ten thousand light years away from us. Doesn't that kind of blow your… Duane Gish: Well if a star is say a million light years away, and we have a pretty good idea that it is, it would obviously, at the rate of 186,000 miles per second, take a million years to get here, there's no question about that. But if the universe, on the other hand, was supernaturally created, you see, that light did not necessarily start from the star. Now in our particular model… Art: How? How can light not start from a star? Duane Gish: Because, if god created the earth, and he created the stars, and if he, as he said in the scri… in the Bible, that he created stars to be for signs and seasons on the earth, obviously he'd have to make them visible immediately. Lindsay comments: So, Gish is arguing for Apparent Age. Some ICR publications such as “The Invisible Things of God” do the same. There are two problems here. First, why stop at starlight? If stars have apparent age, why not the earth? If the earth, why not all of history? We are on the slippery slope towards Last Wednesdayism.
Gish may argue a possibly correct conclusion (YEC) with a bogus "explanation". If I said "the moon orbits the earth because the moon is made of cheese" I have made a true assertion with "the moon orbits the earth" but offered a bogus explanation as to why. Gish similarly makes a possibly correct assertion, but justifies it with a bogus explanation. Josh McDowell gave the same argument, and by doing so, he gave me good reason not to think him a credible apologist.... If one backs up literalism with bogus "scientific" explanations like what Gish offered, fine minds will be driven from YEC. In some cases the process ends up making lots of Michael Shermers. Arguing for literalism does not help many scientifically minded Christians to think YEC claims are believable, especially with explanations like those offered by Gish. Now consider JP Moreland's response:
The argument is that if you take the days of Genesis as not being six days and take them as maybe longer periods of time, then where do you draw the line...why wouldn't the same reasoning imply that we'll eventually have to reinterpret the virgin birth and the resurrection of Jesus. Let me give you a counter-example. I doubt, sir, that you or anybody else in the room takes the biblical passages that say that 'Jesus will call his angels from the four corners of the earth' to teach a flat Earth. I also doubt that anyone in here says that when the sun rises and sets it literally means an earth-centered universe. But you must understand that...there were times when the church interpreted the text that taught that God--Christ will call his angels from the four corners of the world to teach very obviously that the world has four corners. The text says that. There is absolutely no evidence in that text that it means anything other than four corners. You can read it until you're blue in the face, and it says that the Earth has four corners. Similarly, the Bible says the sun rises and sets. Now, that's what it says. You can dance around it all you want. That's what the text says. But there's nobody in here that believes that. No one in here believes the earth has four corners. And so, what we've done is taken that language and interpreted it metaphorically. Similarly, with the rising and the setting of the sun, we treat that...phenomenologically--we say that's the language of description; it is not meant to be taken literally.
I find the better line of argumentation is to follow physical evidence. Walter Brown's YEC website is very good at this. Furthermore, Jesus didn't cure doubting hearts by only demanding people believe in what he said. Consider John 10:38
though ye believe not me, believe the works
There is a difference between demanding allegience versus inspiring allegience. If one makes the claim the Bible says a literal 6 day creation, they better be able to back up the claim better than the way Gish did, lest they unwittingly give reasons to believers to disbelieve. 1 Pet 3:15 assumes one will give good reasons to believe, not bad reasons to believe....scordova
March 30, 2007
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Sal, Remarking on the YEC insistence that "It's true because God said so":
"Of course it would be true if God said so, the question at hand is whether God said so, and whether we're interpreting what he said correctly."
Legitimate questions. In the Exodus passage that recounts the giving of the 10 Commandments, God is said to have spoken these words: "in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and everything in them." The context doesn't appear to be figurative or poetic, considering that such straightforward commands as "do not murder" and "do not commit adultery" follow shortly after. So, judging from this passage, it seems evident that 1) God DID say he created this stuff in six days, and 2) the language isn't in any way arcane, and it's not in a figurative setting, so it's probably safe to conclude that the words mean what they appear to mean. The question that remains is whether what the words say is actually true. Current scientific view says No, just as it says No in regard to ID.
"We have to trust that reality is structured such that the facts will prevail over any areas where our knowledge is mistaken."
Good observation.RickToews
March 30, 2007
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"I'm in the peculiar position of disdaining militant YEC culture, disdaining their proof methods, yet sharing and vigorously defending some of their conclusions." I'm curious, what conclusions do you share? Do you think the dating is wrong?sfg
March 30, 2007
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I think the biggest mistake many YECers make is militancy i.e. judging/condemning/attacking someone who believes in an old Earth. Their time would be much better spent witnessing to the Resurrection assuming they can do it out of love and not anger. And I say this as one who basically considers himself to be a YECer in the sense that in the end the calculations based on Biblical geneaologies will be found to be true, although maybe not in the way I excpet them to. Anyone Old Earthers are not usually neither liars nor fools, and the science is on their side right now.tribune7
March 30, 2007
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The suggestion that one could (let alone should) "kick someone out" of ID is just begging for a reductio ad absurdum treatment. If someone agrees with me about X, but they disagree with me about some independent proposition Y, then what? They don't belong in the X club? They are no longer legitimate in their affirmation of X? What if someone affirms that the origin of biological information implies intelligent design, but differs from me on quantum mechanics, or special relativity, or eschatology, or who they plan to vote for? The questions (note plural) concerning age are legitimate, but independent, and the positions are diverse. Among those who consider Scripture to be inspired, some hold that the universe is entirely young. Others hold that the universe is old, but the earth is young (e.g. due to relativistic differences in aging from gravitational effects, as in the Andromeda sci fi). Still others such as Gorman Gray hold that the Bible, even if interpreted literally, does not require that either the earth or the universe is young. Their age is not specified. He would maintain only that the biosphere is young, being recently created. Still others find no necessary conflict between a long history for life and the inspiration of Scripture. The evidentiary question about the age of the universe, the earth, or of life is its own question. Likewise, questions of theological interpretations are clearly outside the realm of ID.ericB
March 30, 2007
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If IDists think they are going to gain credibility by attacking YEC's then they are hopelessly niave
Speaking as someone who is considered a YEC (85% YEC/15% OEC), some of the harsh criticisms falling on the YEC camp is well deserved. I'm in the peculiar position of disdaining militant YEC culture, disdaining their proof methods, yet sharing and vigorously defending some of their conclusions. That said, it would be better to see reforms in the YEC community to teach them the ID way of doing business and the ID culture. YECs will be good and capable allies if the YECs can reform the way they do business. I'm seeing hints that this reformation has hope of succeeding, and much is owed to the success of the ID movement. A student in math quickly learns that claims of mathematical truth are not adequately defended by saying "the professor said so". Even if student ascents to mathematically true theorems, stating an invalid proof to a true statement on an exam will cost the student points toward his grade. If on a math exam, when asked to show the truthfulness of a mathematical statment, I said, "It's true because the professor said so", would I expect the answer to be treated with dignity or respect? No! I'd be called out as someone who has no clue and not someone who will earn trust that I have the ability to discern truth. Yet the militant YEC community tries to persuade others with similar "proofs" by saying, "it's true because God said so". Of course it would be true if God said so, the question at hand is whether God said so, and whether we're interpreting what he said correctly. Even good men like Gideon have such doubts:
If now I have found favor in your eyes, give me a sign that it is really you [God] talking to me. Judges 6:17
If a proper metaphysics and world views were a prequisite to finding truth, none of us would have hope of finding truth. We have to trust that reality is structured such that the facts will prevail over any areas where our knowledge is mistaken. That is the faith and spirit of the scientific method. Rather than the ID community rejecting the YECs, reforming the YECs would be more productive. Individuals like Marcus Ross and Paul Neslson and Timothy Standish will valuable additions to the ID community.scordova
March 30, 2007
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I think you're very wise politically, Denise. As for YEC, my main reason for being one is that I trust that God wrote the Bible. It would be like if the evolutionary robots in an earlier article read some data that revealed so much hidden reality about themselves that they knew it came from the humans that made them. Everything else in that data set could reasonably be taken as authoritative, because it should occur to the robots that the epistemology of their builders is superior to their own - their builders, knowing more about the robots hidden nature than the robots themselves, must have better ways of coming by knowledge than the robots themselves, and therefore the facts in the data set they read are probably superior to those that the robots can come by themselves. Of course, this being the case, there should be no fear to test that hypothesis for all it's worth. When it comes to the age of the earth, I simply do not accept the assumption of gradualism when it comes to the various dating methods. There is no reason to assume (other than Occam's razor) that gradual changes occurring at the same rates as today, rather than catastrophic changes occurring rarely throughout history, produced what we see today.Designed Jacob
March 30, 2007
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I'm not sure whether this is about materialism or whether it's more about human nature. In other words, we just don't like to admit when we don't know the answer(s), less still when the answers we've given later turn out to be incorrect.Acquiesce
March 30, 2007
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I'd rather see ID and YEC do a pincer maneuver on the false ideas of materialism.rswood
March 30, 2007
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Correct Jehu. Besides, we are not, by and large, trying to convince the committed materialists. There are really very few of them, and their metaphysical commitments make them impervious to evidence and logic anyway. We hope to convince the open-minded middle. Starting a fight with YEC's does not help us reach that population.BarryA
March 30, 2007
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You are correct. The battle is with materialism vs. non-materialism, whether the earth is young or old is small potatoes in that battle. If IDists think they are going to gain credibility by attacking YEC's then they are hopelessly niave and fail to comprehend what really motivates the soul of the materialists.Jehu
March 30, 2007
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