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Whose side are you on, Professor Coyne? What Anatole France really said about miracles

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Here’s a question for skeptics. Is there any evidence that would convince you that the laws of Nature can be suspended, and that miracles do indeed occur?

Interestingly, modern-day skeptics are divided on this issue. Professor P. Z. Myers and Dr. Michael Shermer say that nothing would convince them; while Professor Jerry Coyne and Professor Sean Carroll say that if the evidence were good enough, they would provisionally accept the reality of the supernatural. (See here and here for a round-up of their views.)

So I was surprised when Professor Jerry Coyne, in a recent post on the works of the great agnostic Robert Ingersoll (pictured above left), approvingly quoted a passage from his 1872 essay, The Gods, in which he declared that the occurrence of a miracle today would demonstrate the existence of a supernatural Deity, and then followed up with a quote from another great skeptic, Anatole France (pictured above right), whose position on the matter was precisely the opposite of Ingersoll’s!

Ingersoll: a skeptic, but an open-minded one

Here is a relevant excerpt from Ingersoll’s essay, The Gods. (N.B. All bold emphases in this post are mine – VJT):

There is but one way to demonstrate the existence of a power independent of and superior to nature, and that is by breaking, if only for one moment, the continuity of cause and effect. Pluck from the endless chain of existence one little link; stop for one instant the grand procession and you have shown beyond all contradiction that nature has a master…

The church wishes us to believe. Let the church, or one of its intellectual saints, perform a miracle, and we will believe. We are told that nature has a superior. Let this superior, for one single instant, control nature, and we will admit the truth of your assertions…

We want one fact. We beg at the doors of your churches for just one little fact. We pass our hats along your pews and under your pulpits and implore you for just one fact. We know all about your mouldy wonders and your stale miracles. We want a ‘this year’s fact’. We ask only one. Give us one fact for charity. Your miracles are too ancient. The witnesses have been dead for nearly two thousand years. Their reputation for “truth and veracity” in the neighborhood where they resided is wholly unknown to us. Give us a new miracle, and substantiate it by witnesses who still have the cheerful habit of living in this world…

We demand a new miracle, and we demand it now. Let the church furnish at least one, or forever after hold her peace.

Ingersoll was a skeptic, but at least he was an honest man, open to new evidence. Professor Coyne then went on to gleefully quote a short passage from Anatole France’s essay, Miracle, published in his 1895 anthology, Le Jardin d’Epicure (The Garden of Epicurus). In the essay, the author described a recent visit that he had made to Lourdes. His companion, upon noticing the discarded wooden crutches on display at the grotto, pointed them out and whispered in his ear:

“One single wooden leg would have been much more convincing.”

Anatole France’s 1895 essay, Miracle: a classic example of closed-minded dogmatism

The above translation is Coyne’s; he tells us that he had great difficulty in tracking down the original quote. (There are dozens of sites on the Internet where he could have found it, and the essay can also be found in the late Christopher Hitchens’ work, The Portable Atheist.) But what Coyne omitted to mention was that Anatole France then went on to add that no amount of evidence would convince him of the occurrence of a miracle, because of his prior commitment to naturalism. Below, I shall reproduce in its entirety France’s 1895 essay, Miracle, in order to give the reader an opportunity to see how philosophical rigidity can close the mind of a skeptic:

We should not say: There are no miracles, because none has ever been proved. This always leaves it open to the Orthodox to appeal to a more complete state of knowledge. The truth is, no miracle can, from the nature of things, be stated as an established fact; to do so will always involve drawing a premature conclusion. A deeply rooted instinct tells us that whatever Nature embraces in her bosom is conformable to her laws, either known or occult. But, even supposing he could silence this presentiment of his, a man will never be in a position to say: “Such and such a fact is outside the limits of Nature.” Our researches will never carry us as far as that. Moreover, if it is of the essence of miracle to elude scientific investigation, every dogma attesting it invokes an intangible witness that is bound to evade our grasp to the end of time.

This notion of miracles belongs to the infancy of the mind, and cannot continue when once the human intellect has begun to frame a systematic picture of the universe. The wise Greeks could not tolerate the idea. Hippocrates said, speaking of epilepsy: “This malady is called divine; but all diseases are divine, and all alike come from the gods.” There he spoke as a natural philosopher. Human reason is less assured of itself nowadays. What annoys me above all is when people say: “We do not believe in miracles, because no miracle is proved.”

Happening to be at Lourdes, in August, I paid a visit to the grotto where innumerable crutches were hung up in token of a cure. My companion pointed to these trophies of the sick-room and hospital ward, and whispered in my ear:

“One wooden leg would be more to the point.”

It was the word of a man of sense; but speaking philosophically, the wooden leg would be no whit more convincing than a crutch. If an observer of a genuinely scientific spirit were called upon to verify that a man’s leg, after amputation, had suddenly grown again as before, whether in a miraculous pool or anywhere else, he would not cry: “Lo! a miracle.” He would say this:

An observation, so far unique, points us to a presumption that under conditions still undetermined, the tissues of a human leg have the property of reorganizing themselves like a crab’s or lobster’s claws and a lizard’s tail, but much more rapidly. Here we have a fact of nature in apparent contradiction with several other facts of the like sort. The contradiction arises from our ignorance, and clearly shows that the science of animal physiology must be reconstituted, or to speak more accurately, that it has never yet been properly constituted. It is little more than two hundred years since we first had any true conception of the circulation of the blood. It is barely a century since we learned what is implied in the act of breathing.”

I admit it would need some boldness to speak in this strain. But the man of science should be above surprise. At the same time, let us hasten to add, none of them have ever been put to such a proof, and nothing leads us to apprehend any such prodigy. Such miraculous cures as the doctors have been able to verify to their satisfaction are all quite in accordance with physiology. So far the tombs of the Saints, the magic springs and sacred grottoes, have never proved efficient except in the case of patients suffering from complaints either curable or susceptible of instantaneous relief. But were a dead man revived before our eyes, no miracle would be proved, unless we knew what life is and death is, and that we shall never know.

What is the definition of a miracle? We are told: a breach of the laws of nature. But we do not know the laws of nature; how, then, are we to know whether a particular fact is a breach of these laws or no?

“But surely we know some of these laws?”

“True, we have arrived at some idea of the correlation of things. But failing as we do to grasp all the natural laws, we can be sure of none, seeing they are mutually interdependent.”

“Still, we might verify our miracle in those series of correlations we have arrived at.”

“No, not with anything like philosophical certainty. Besides, it is precisely those series we regard as the most stable and best determined which suffer least interruption from the miraculous. Miracles never, for instance, try to interfere with the mechanism of the heavens. They never disturb the course of the celestial bodies, and never advance or retard the calculated date of an eclipse. On the contrary, their favourite field is the obscure domain of pathology as concerned with the internal organs, and above all nervous diseases. However, we must not confound a question of fact with one of principle. In principle the man of science is ill-qualified to verify a supernatural occurrence. Such verification presupposes a complete and final knowledge of nature, which he does not possess, and will never possess, and which no one ever did possess in this world. It is just because I would not believe our most skilful oculists as to the miraculous healing of a blind man that a fortiori I do not believe Matthew or Mark either, who were not oculists. A miracle is by definition unidentifiable and unknowable.”

The savants cannot in any case certify that a fact is in contradiction with the universal order that is with the unknown ordinance of the Divinity. Even God could do this only by formulating a pettifogging distinction between the general manifestations and the particular manifestations of His activity, acknowledging that from time to time He gives little timid finishing touches to His work and condescending to the humiliating admission that the cumbersome machine He has set agoing needs every hour or so, to get it to jog along indifferently well, a push from its contriver’s hand.

Science is well fitted, on the other hand, to bring back under the data of positive knowledge facts which seemed to be outside its limits. It often succeeds very happily in accounting by physical causes for phenomena that had for centuries been regarded as supernatural. Cures of spinal affections were confidently believed to have taken place at the tomb of the Deacon Paris at Saint-Medard and in other holy places. These cures have ceased to surprise since it has become known that hysteria occasionally simulates the symptoms associated with lesions of the spinal marrow.

The appearance of a new star to the mysterious personages whom the Gospels call the “Wise Men of the East” (I assume the incident to be authentic historically) was undoubtedly a miracle to the Astrologers of the Middle Ages, who believed that the firmament, in which the stars were stuck like nails, was subject to no change whatever. But, whether real or supposed, the star of the Magi has lost its miraculous character for us, who know that the heavens are incessantly perturbed by the birth and death of worlds, and who in 1866 saw a star suddenly blaze forth in the Corona Borealis, shine for a month, and then go out.

It did not proclaim the Messiah; all it announced was that, at an infinitely remote distance from our earth, an appalling conflagration was burning up a world in a few days, — or rather had burnt it up long ago, for the ray that brought us the news of this disaster in the heavens had been on the road for five hundred years and possibly longer.

The miracle of Bolsena is familiar to everybody, immortalized as it is in one of Raphael’s Stanze at the Vatican. A skeptical priest was celebrating Mass; the host, when he broke it for Communion, appeared bespattered with blood. It is only within the last ten years that the Academies of Science would not have been sorely puzzled to explain so strange a phenomenon. Now no one thinks of denying it, since the discovery of a microscopic fungus, the spores of which, having germinated in the meal or dough, offer the appearance of clotted blood. The naturalist who first found it, rightly thinking that here were the red blotches on the wafer in the Bolsena miracle, named the fungus micrococcus prodigiosus.

There will always be a fungus, a star, or a disease that human science does not know of; and for this reason it must always behoove the philosopher, in the name of the undying ignorance of man, to deny every miracle and say of the most startling wonders, — the host of Bolsena, the star in the East, the cure of the paralytic and the like: Either it is not, or it is; and if it is, it is part of nature and therefore natural.

Seven flawed arguments against miracles

Anatole France’s essay on miracles is riddled with flaws. The fallacy in the final paragraph, where he argues that whatever exists, must be natural, should be evident to readers, without the need for further comment.

The second great fallacy in France’s reasoning regarding miracles is that he neglects probability, and frames the issue only in terms of certitude. Even if we grant his point that science can never know all the laws of Nature and can therefore never show that an event is miraculous, the fact remains that certain events are astronomically improbable – indeed, so improbable that the only prudent conclusion to draw, if one observed them, would be that they are miraculous. A tornado blowing a house down does not strike us as remarkable, but rewind the tape, and I think that even hardened skeptics would agree that here we have a sequence of events which is so improbable that we would have to call it a miracle.

Third, if Anatole France’s argument that scientists can never know all the laws of Nature were correct, then by the same token, they could never know for sure that the universe is a closed system – in which case, France’s a priori argument against the possibility of miracles collapses.

Fourth, it might be urged by modern-day skeptics that the discovery of a Grand Unified Theory of Everything, which some physicists dream of, would allow scientists to ascertain which events are ruled out by the laws of Nature, as it would yield a complete list of those laws. But if it did that, then the scientifically verified occurrence of an event ruled out by the laws of Nature would have to count as evidence for the supernatural.

Fifth, the tired old Humean objection that no matter how strong the evidence for a miracle may be, it is always more likely that the witnesses to that miracle are either lying or mistaken, rests upon a mathematical flaw, which was pointed out long ago by Charles Babbage, in his Ninth Bridgewater Treatise (2nd ed., London, 1838; digitized for the Victorian Web by Dr. John van Wyhe and proof-read by George P. Landow). I’d like to quote here from David Coppedge’s masterly online work, THE WORLD’S GREATEST CREATION SCIENTISTS From Y1K to Y2K:

Babbage’s Ninth Bridgewater Treatise (hereafter, NBT) is available online and makes for interesting reading … Most interesting is his rebuttal to the arguments of David Hume (1711-1776), the skeptical philosopher who had created quite a stir with his seemingly persuasive argument against miracles. Again, it was based on the Newtonian obsession with natural law. Hume argued that it is more probable that those claiming to have seen a miracle were either lying or deceived than that the regularity of nature had been violated. Babbage knew a lot more about the mathematics of probability than Hume. In chapter X of NBT, Babbage applied numerical values to the question, chiding Hume for his subjectivity. A quick calculation proves that if there were 99 reliable witnesses to the resurrection of a man from the dead (and I Corinthians 15:6 claims there were over 500), the probability is a trillion to one against the falsehood of their testimony, compared to the probability of one in 200 billion against anyone in the history of the world having been raised from the dead. This simple calculation shows it takes more faith to deny the miracle than to accept the testimony of eyewitnesses. Thus Babbage renders specious Hume’s assertion that the improbability of a miracle could never be overcome by any number of witnesses. Apply the math, and the results do not support that claim, Babbage says: “From this it results that, provided we assume that independent witnesses can be found of whose testimony it can be stated that it is more probable that it is true than that it is false, we can always assign a number of witnesses which will, according to Hume’s argument, prove the truth of a miracle. (Italics in original.) Babbage takes his conquest of Hume so far that by Chapter XIII, he argues that “It is more probable that any law, at the knowledge of which we have arrived by observation, shall be subject to one of those violations which, according to Hume’s definition, constitutes a miracle, than that it should not be so subjected.”

Sixth, Anatole France’s snide put-down of the miracles worked by a Deity as being tantamount to “little timid finishing touches to His work,” which are required because “the cumbersome machine He has set agoing needs every hour or so, to get it to jog along indifferently well, a push from its contriver’s hand,” was also convincingly rebutted by Charles Babbage. To quote Coppedge again:

The heart of NBT [the Ninth Bridgewater Treatise – VJT] is an argument that miracles do not violate natural law, using Babbage’s own concept of a calculating machine. This forms an engaging thought experiment. With his own Analytical Engine undoubtedly fresh on his mind, he asks the reader to imagine a calculating engine that might show very predictable regularity, even for billions of iterations, such as a machine that counts integers. Then imagine it suddenly jumps to another natural law, which again repeats itself with predictable regularity. If the designer of the engine had made it that way on purpose, it would show even more intelligent design than if it only continued counting integers forever. Babbage extends his argument through several permutations, to the point where he convinces the reader that it takes more intelligence to design a general purpose calculating engine that can operate reliably according to multiple natural laws, each known to the designer, each predictable by the designer, than to design a simple machine that mindlessly clicks away according to a single law. So here we see Babbage employing his own specialty – the general-purpose calculating machine – to argue his point. He concluded, therefore, as he reiterated in his later autobiographical work Passages from the Life of a Philosopher (1864), miracles are not “the breach of established laws, but… indicate the existence of far higher laws.”

Babbage’s suggestion is an intriguing one, which invites the question: how exactly should a miracle be defined? Should it be defined as the violation of the laws of Nature, or should it be simply be defined as an event at variance with lower-level laws, which support the regular order of things? Perhaps the latter definition would be more fruitful. And that brigs me to a seventh flaw in France’s argument against miracles: even if he were right in saying that whatever happens, happens in accordance with some law of Nature, what he fails to realize is that this argument against supernaturalism only holds if scientific reductionism is true. In other words, France is assuming that there are no higher-level laws of Nature (perhaps known only to the Author of Nature) which govern rare and singular occurrences, and which cannot be derived from the lower-level laws which support the regular order of Nature. France has no response to the question: what is so absurd about the concept of a singular law, or more generally, a law which does not supervene upon lower-level laws?

But rather than waste time arguing about the definition of a miracle, I would argue that the more profound question is: what kind of evidence warrants belief in an Intelligent Designer of Nature, and what kind of evidence should lead us to conclude that this Designer is a supernatural Being?

I might add that Anatole France never bothered to check out the evidence for Eucharistic miracles (see also here), or for God healing amputees (see here). I would invite readers to draw their own conclusions on those matters. While I can certainly understand and respect the attitude of a skeptic who says that the available evidence for miracles is not strong enough to sway his/her mind, I have to say that a skeptic like Anatole France, who refuses to even consider the possibility that he/she may be wrong strikes very much like the Aristotelian philosophers of the 17th century who, according to popular legend, refused even to look through Galileo’s telescope, because they feared that it might falsify their theories. (By the way, that story is apocryphal – see here.)

A question for Professor Coyne: whose side are you on?

I would now like to ask Professor Coyne and my skeptical readers: whose side are you on? Do you side with Ingersoll, who would be convinced were he to witness a modern miracle? Or do you side with Anatole France, who stoutly maintains that nothing would convince him of the occurrence of a miracle? You cannot have it both ways.

Until now, Professor Coyne has always declared himself to be open to the possibility of a miracle. Science, he believes, could in principle supply strong evidence (but not proof) of the miraculous. In a November 8, 2010 post entitled, Shermer and I disagree on the supernatural, Coyne wrote:

I don’t see science as committed to methodological naturalism — at least in terms of accepting only natural explanations for natural phenomena. Science is committed to a) finding out what phenomena are real, and b) coming up with the best explanations for those real, natural phenomena. Methodological naturalism is not an a priori commitment, but a strategy that has repeatedly worked in science, and so has been adopted by all working scientists.

As for me, I am committed only to finding out what phenomena really occur, and then making a hypothesis to explain them, whether that hypothesis be “supernatural” or not. In principle we could demonstrate ESP or telekinesis, both of which violate the laws of physics, and my conclusion would be, for the former, “some people can read the thoughts of others at a distance, though I don’t know how that is done.” If only Christian prayers were answered, and Jesus appeared doing miracles left and right, documented by all kinds of evidence, I would say, “It looks as if some entity that comports with the Christian God is working ‘miracles,’ though I don’t know how she does it.” ….

Science can never prove anything. If you accept that, then we can never absolutely prove the absence of a “supernatural” god — or the presence of one. We can only find evidence that supports or weakens a given hypothesis. There is not an iota of evidence for The God Hypothesis, but I claim that there could be.

Sean Carroll on the supernatural

Professor Coyne is not alone in his rejection of dogmatic methodological naturalism. The atheist physicist Sean Carroll has candidly acknowledged that there is a possibility, in principle, that science could one day decide in favor of the miraculous, in an essay refreshingly free from dogmatism, entitled, Is Dark Matter Supernatural? (Discover magazine, November 1, 2010):

Let’s imagine that there really were some sort of miraculous component to existence, some influence that directly affected the world we observe without being subject to rigid laws of behavior. How would science deal with that?

The right way to answer this question is to ask how actual scientists would deal with that, rather than decide ahead of time what is and is not “science” and then apply this definition to some new phenomenon. If life on Earth included regular visits from angels, or miraculous cures as the result of prayer, scientists would certainly try to understand it using the best ideas they could come up with. To be sure, their initial ideas would involve perfectly “natural” explanations of the traditional scientific type. And if the examples of purported supernatural activity were sufficiently rare and poorly documented (as they are in the real world), the scientists would provisionally conclude that there was insufficient reason to abandon the laws of nature. What we think of as lawful, “natural” explanations are certainly simpler — they involve fewer metaphysical categories, and better-behaved ones at that — and correspondingly preferred, all things being equal, to supernatural ones.

But that doesn’t mean that the evidence could never, in principle, be sufficient to overcome this preference. Theory choice in science is typically a matter of competing comprehensive pictures, not dealing with phenomena on a case-by-case basis. There is a presumption in favor of simple explanation; but there is also a presumption in favor of fitting the data. In the real world, there is data favoring the claim that Jesus rose from the dead: it takes the form of the written descriptions in the New Testament. Most scientists judge that this data is simply unreliable or mistaken, because it’s easier to imagine that non-eyewitness-testimony in two-thousand-year-old documents is inaccurate that to imagine that there was a dramatic violation of the laws of physics and biology. But if this kind of thing happened all the time, the situation would be dramatically different; the burden on the “unreliable data” explanation would become harder and harder to bear, until the preference would be in favor of a theory where people really did rise from the dead.

There is a perfectly good question of whether science could ever conclude that the best explanation was one that involved fundamentally lawless behavior. The data in favor of such a conclusion would have to be extremely compelling, for the reasons previously stated, but I don’t see why it couldn’t happen. Science is very pragmatic, as the origin of quantum mechanics vividly demonstrates. Over the course of a couple decades, physicists (as a community) were willing to give up on extremely cherished ideas of the clockwork predictability inherent in the Newtonian universe, and agree on the probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics. That’s what fit the data. Similarly, if the best explanation scientists could come up with for some set of observations necessarily involved a lawless supernatural component, that’s what they would do. There would inevitably be some latter-day curmudgeonly Einstein figure who refused to believe that God ignored the rules of his own game of dice, but the debate would hinge on what provided the best explanation, not a priori claims about what is and is not science.

There is much wisdom in Carroll’s words. Science cannot let itself be imprisoned by metaphysical dogmas.

More about Ingersoll: what did he believe on God and a hereafter, and what drove him to attack religion?

Before I finish, I’d like to add one more quote from Robert Ingersoll’s essay, The Gods. It’s a real pity that Professor Coyne didn’t quote this passage, as it illustrates perfectly the misplaced confidence of the skeptic:

A new world has been discovered by the microscope; everywhere has been found the infinite; in every direction man has investigated and explored and nowhere, in earth or stars, has been found the footstep of any being superior to or independent of nature. Nowhere has been discovered the slightest evidence of any interference from without.

Famous last words! Abiogenesis, anyone? And what about the fine-tuning argument? Ingersoll was at least an honest doubter. I wonder what conclusions he would draw if he were alive today.

But even Ingersoll was, it seems, the prisoner of his age. Although he expressed a willingness, in principle, to accept evidence of miracles, apparently he found the idea of a genuinely supernatural Being inconceivable. In an interview with The Dispatch (Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, December 11, 1880), Ingersoll declared [scroll down to page 57]:

There may be a God for all I know. There may be thousands of them. But the idea of an independent Being outside and independent of Nature is inconceivable. I do not know of any word or doctrine that would explain my views upon that subject. I suppose Pantheism is as near as I could go. I believe in the eternity of matter and thee eternity of intelligence, but I do not believe in any being outside of Nature. I do not believe in any personal Deity. I do not believe in any aristocracy of the air. I know nothing about origin or destiny…. I believe that in all matter, in some way, there is what we call force; that one of the forms of force is intelligence.

Regarding immortality, however, Ingersoll was more open-minded. In the same interview, he acknowledged that there might be an afterlife, and in a revealing passage, he admitted that what drove him in his crusade against religion was one thing and one thing only: the doctrine, which he found deeply abhorrent, of an everlasting Hell to which the majority of human beings would be consigned:

My opinion of immortality is this:
First.- I live, and that of itself is infinitely wonderful. Second.- There was a time when I was not, and after I was not, I was. Third.- Now that I am, I may be again; and it is no more wonderful that I may be again, if I have been, than that I am, having once been nothing. If the churches advocated immortality, if they advocated eternal justice, if they said that man would be rewarded and punished according to deeds; if they admitted that at some time in eternity there would be an opportunity to lift up souls, and that throughout all the ages the angels of progress and virtue, would beckon the fallen upward; and that some time, and no matter how far away they might put off the time, all the children of men would be reasonably happy, I never would say a solitary word against the church, but just as long as they preach that the majority of mankind will suffer eternal pain, just so long I shall oppose them; that is to say, as long as I live.

I wonder what Ingersoll would make of the late Cardinal Avery Dulles’ essay, The Population of Hell (First Things, May 2003), if he were alive in the 21st century. And I wonder if Professor Coyne will be brave enough to print the foregoing passage from Ingersoll, in his weekly series over at Why Evolution Is True on the great skeptic’s views. We shall see.

Comments
You cannot "debunk" Lombatti. He is a respected historian who made a historically-based argument in his recent paper. There's only an argument, a claim about the shroud based on examination of historical source material. I understand that you think the Hungarian pray codex is something Lombatti needs to deal with, but neither you nor Jones seem to know whether or not Lombatti actually does or does not mention it in the Studi Medievali article. That's the only point I am making: you have to deal with the argument Lombatti gives you. Critique that argument. That's all I'm saying. I've accepted the facts you have brought in so far. Thanks. They are very interesting. It's hard for me to comment fairly on them unless I know more about the context of the claims. The weave, the pollen, the limestone: it's intriguing, but there's more to the story and I would need to read the scholarly articles myself to feel comfortable discussing the arguments. Now, back to Lombatti. He does have some articles in English that make certain cases about the shroud. These are layperson's articles, so not necessarily going into the kind of historical detail as we'd expect in a paper or monograph. But here are some summary points relating to the arguments he makes (See "Remaking the Shroud" on the website _The Bible and Interpretation_): (1) Top-level argument: The shroud contains many inaccuracies and the image is anatomically incorrect. (2) Historical points:
When the relics first appeared in France around 1355, the bishop ordered an inquiry and found out that such burial cloth with a double imprint did not find any confirmation in the Gospels. Moreover, the Pope who had to face the first controversy on the public display of the Shroud wrote in the bull that he be granted permission to show it, but it had to be said with a clear and loud voice that it was a mere representation of the burial cloth of Jesus and not the real one. Finally, even the owners - the French family de Charny - when asked for permission to place the relic in their church have always referred to the Shroud as a representation.
(3) Argument that the image is anatomically incorrect: 3.1 - The shroud shows "neat artistic rivulets" on the outside of the locks instead of blood matting on the scalp or in the hair, which is what happens in real life. 3.2 - The hands on the pelvis--with missing thumbs, a convention of medieval art--shows one exit wound, and that wound is in the hand, not the wrist. 3.3 - The right arm is longer than the left. 3.4 - The head is too small in proportion to the body image. 3.5 - The right footprint is anatomically impossible because a flat foot and flat back require the calf to be raised, away from the cloth. Plus, the back image should have been darker and more deformed than the front, because that was where the weight of the body would have been. 3.6 - The locks of hairs at the sides of the face should be fallen back, assuming the body is lying on the back; but what we see is the hair up front at the sides. 3.7 - There is a space between the hair and either side of the face. 3.8 - The front image measures 205 centimeters and the back 198. (4) Three university labs performed carbon dating on the shroud and confirmed its medieval origin; so historical and scientific data match. (5) The Akeldama shroud fragments--remains of an actual Second Temple burial cloth--were found in Jerusalem in 1999. These--and please pay attention here--
completely contradict the Shroud as a first century Jewish artifact: fabric, patteakeldama shamirrn, twist of the fibers and a four meter long cloth have nothing to share with the archaeological findings.
I can go on, but recall that this is Lombatti's argument, not mine. I simply want to communicate the argument you need to address. And remember, the evidence Lombatti presents is your evidence, too. All you need to do is show this historical and scientific evidence points to the authenticity of this particular shroud.LarTanner
January 17, 2013
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Lars, jones dealt with every one of his posts, as I showed in my posts. As I said before I myself could debunk lombatti just on the Hungarian pray codex alone. Your reacting to the evidences and facts the same way dogmatic atheists have been reacting to the shroud since ray Rogers invalidated the c-14 tests. You, like them and lombatti know that your wrong and u keep saying the same thing over and over, even though you and lombatti have been proven wrong over and over. At this point, I am the idiot for responding to your posts which contain no scientific or historical evidence or facts, but something valuable has been accomplished here. I'm sure there are some agnostics and fellow Christians here that were on the sideline about the shroud. They have seen my posts and BA's posts and have seen your non factual posts and they will see who is grounded in reality and who is grounded in ignorance and denial. God blesswallstreeter43
January 17, 2013
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Wallstreeter, I am much too busy to play today, but I skimmed your three recent posts. You are not getting the main point. Your Jones is reacting to Lombatti's top-level claim, but I don't see a genuine attempt to grapple with the evidence Lombatti marshals in support of the claim. You need to deal with the evidence and the claim, i.e., the argument. Until Jones does this, he's just engaging in crankery. And to see Jones fault Lombatti for carefully crafting his argument with words like "probably"--laughable! Jones was the guy firing pot-shots one after another, the same thing BA faulted me for.LarTanner
January 17, 2013
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As we can see Lars, Lombatti is nothing more than a. Pseudo shroud conspiracy theorist , and Stephen Jones easily debunked his false claims about the shroud, and this is what happens when skeptics like you try to debunk the shroud with 5 minutes of google keyword search instead of doing the right thing and looking into the facts and evidences presented by both sides to come to the truth. Truth is not relative man.wallstreeter43
January 17, 2013
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Part 3 Besides, it is one thing to claim that in 1346 Geoffrey de Charny I obtained the Shroud in Smyrna (even though there is no evidence he did); and quite another to claim that the Shroud "originated in Turkey" about 1,330. The former is not inconsistent with the Vignon markings evidence that the Shroud existed in at least the 6th century, and the Pray Manuscript evidence that the Shroud was in Constantinople before 1192-95, but the latter is. The de Charny family are the first recorded owners of the shroud. There is no space to go into it, but it is more likely that Geoffrey de Charny I's wife Jeanne de Vergy was the actual owner of the Shroud. Lombatti found that Geoffroy was unable to join a pilgrimage to Jerusalem after liberating Smyrna, so he was given the shroud as a symbol of his participation in the crusade to Turkey. Why would Geoffrey de Charny I be given the Shroud just because he was unable to join a pilgrimage to Jerusalem? Also, if he was given the Shroud in this legitimate way, why was it such a surprise when he exhibited it in Lirey in c.1355 and why did he and his son Geoffrey II never give a straight answer as how they came to own the Shroud? The Catholic Church has never officially commented on the shroud's authenticity, but has made samples available to scientists for testing. Although the "Catholic Church" has never officially claimed the Shroud to be authentic, most (if not all) Popes since the 14th century seem to have personally regarded it to be. Including the current Pope Benedict Benedict XVI, has made it clear that he regards the Shroud as authentic. while two years later Italian government researchers claimed the image of a man had been caused by a supernatural `flash of light'. This was the Italian ENEA report that the Shroud's image could only be replicated by an excimer ultraviolet laser. See my post "Italian study claims Turin Shroud is Christ's authentic burial robe." While the ENEA scientists did not use the word "supernatural," that is the only explanation of how a dead body generated the equivalent of "34 thousand billion watts" of light-energy to "reproduce the entire Shroud image": "However, ENEA scientists warn, `it should be noted that the total power of VUV radiations required to instantly color the surface of linen that corresponds to a human of average height, body surface area equal to = 2000 MW/cm2 17000 cm2 = 34 thousand billion watts makes it impractical today to reproduce the entire Shroud image using a single laser excimer, since this power cannot be produced by any VUV light source built to date (the most powerful available on the market come to several billion watts)" (Tosatti, M., "The Shroud is Not a Fake," The Vatican Insider, 12 December 2011). But carbon tests carried out in Oxford in 1988 firmly dated the material to 1260-1390. It wasn't only the Oxford radiocarbon dating laboratory but also two others at Tucson, Arizona and Zurich, Switzerland. But because of the overwhelming weight of evidence that the Shroud was in existence from at least the 6th century, the 1988 radiocarbon dating of a single, tiny, unrepresentative, sample of the Shroud to "AD 1260-1390" simply has to be wrong! Indeed the very fact that three major radiocarbon dating laboratories requested that they be allowed to date the Shroud of Turin, and not any other of Lombatti's "40 so-called burial cloths of Jesus" gives the lie to Lombatti's claim that the Shroud is just another of the many "false shrouds [which] circulated in the Middle Ages"!wallstreeter43
January 17, 2013
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Part 2 Antonio Lombatti said the false shrouds circulated in the Middle Ages, but most of them were later destroyed. First, a copy of something is not necessarily "false." A copy would only be false if it was claimed to be the original but was not. But again see below that many (if not most) of those so-called "false shrouds" had stated on them that they were "derived from the original" - the Shroud. There is nothing new in this claim by Lombatti that there are many copies of the Shroud. In 2004 a paper by a Daniel Duque Torres, who had made a special study of Shroud copies, was published in the British Society of the Turin Shroud Newsletter: "There are copies [of the Shroud of Turin] the same size as the original, some very small ones (just 10 cm long), others with the spear and nail wounds in different positions, some with a crown of thorns and others without it, some from the same workshop and others absolutely anonymous. Some have texts written on (in Latin, French, Spanish and Italian) etc, ... [in] the eighteenth century ... a copy was made without permission of the House of Savoy, painted from another copy that had been given to Charles II, king of Spain. Another copy was made from the second one. The Savoy family encouraged the tradition to such an extent that Princess Francisca Maria Apollonia spent long periods of her leisure time painting copies of the Shroud that were then distributed according to specific requests or simple friendship. ... many copies made in the sixteenth century and the first half of the seventeenth were given to the royal family and nobility of Spain ... Many of the copies from this time were produced in Chambéry, where the original was kept until 1578. However, in the second half of the seventeenth century and all through the eighteenth, most copies stayed in Italy ... copies were made for the other side of the Atlantic (Argentina and Mexico) ... There are earlier copies in France, although most probably based on the Besançon shroud. ... When we know the date of a copy we can sometimes attribute it to a specific painter or even relate it to another copy which has since been lost. Such is the case of the copy kept in Pamplona, Spain, painted in 1571. This copy was only discovered recently and we can confidently state that it is the "twin" of the copy in Alcoy (Alicante), Spain, also painted in 1571. ... A similar relationship can be established for the famous Lierre (Belgium) copy, painted in 1516, once attributed to Durero but more probably the work of Bernard van Orley, and the copy held today by the National Museum of Ancient Art in Xábregas, Lisbon (Portugal), painted in the early sixteenth century. The Emperor Maximilian of Austria had requested both. There are documents which suggest that the Lierre copy was ordered by Margarita of Austria, Duchess of Savoy, when she moved the court from Malinas to Brussels ... There are two things that can be seen on Shroud copies – the texts, informing us of where and when it was made or reminding us of what the original is, and the image painted onto the cloth. ... There are various ways that this is explained on the copies, either telling people what it is or simply confirming the authenticity of the copy. Sentences such as ... the most common "Extractum ex originali", on numerous copies dating from the 17th century, when more copies were made than in any other century. Most copies were touched to the original, excepting of course those made fraudulently from other copies without the owner's permission. In this way a secondary relic "ad tactum" was created. This is evident from the cloth of many copies, on which a sentence to the effect of "touched to the original" was written in different languages ... If a date is given on the copy, it is usually just the year, although sometimes we can find the day and month, even the date when the copy was touched to the original. ... Given that the painters in question tried unsuccessfully to recreate the "impossible" Shroud image as realistically as they could, the result has never really been valued from an artistic point of view ... the aim was not so much to paint a beautiful image as to recall the original with pious intentions. One notable exception to this is the copy in the Descalzas Reales (Madrid, Spain, unknown date), painted with clearly artistic intentions. ... Fantino, Conti, Bocciardo, Princess Francisca María Apollonia and a priest at the church of Chambéry were all painters who at one time or another decided to copy the object that had caught their attention and yet which turned out to be so difficult to copy exactly ... Not taking into account the 19th and 20th centuries, and bearing in mind that there are another 40 copies known to have been made but never found ... we can state that 130 copies are known to have been produced. This number will no doubt keep growing as new copies come to light." ("Shroud Copies," Daniel Duque Torres, British Society for the Turin Shroud Newsletter, No. 59, June 2004). He said the Turin Shroud itself – showing an image of a bearded man and venerated for centuries as Christ's burial cloth – appears to have originated in Turkey some 1,300 years after the Crucifixion. Note Lombatti's qualification "appears" in addition to his earlier qualification "probably"! Clearly Lombatti does not know but is just speculating. Otherwise, he needs to state: Who was this early 14th century Turkish artistic genius who created the Shroud? How did he do it? Where are the other examples of his work? Where are the contemporary references to him and his Shroud? Lombatti, of the Università Popolare in Parma, Italy, cited work by a 19th century French historian who had studied surviving medieval documents. Is that all? Why doesn't Lombatti name this "19th century French historian" in this article and these "medieval documents"? Lombatti's paper is in Italian, but presumably Italian Shroud pro-authenticity theorists will in due course critique it in English. From his website Lombatti appears to be a professional skeptic and debunker (an Italian version of Joe Nickell), using Nickell's favourite "guilt by association" technique, lumping "the 'Shroud of Turin'" with "The 'da Vinci Code'" into the same category called by him "fantarchaeology": Pseudoscienze Bibliche e False Reliquie di Antonio Lombatti (Biblical and pseudo False Relics Antonio Lombatti) We're living in an age of "fantarchaeology": apocryphal gospels which supposedly conceal the real essence of Christianity; alledged [sic] conspiracies by the Knights Templar; pseudo-historical books that falsify sources and confuse the results of relevant research. Along with these there are botched newfangled translations of ancient texts, unverified rubbish, and meaningless legends which are presented as if they were the only authentic historical interpretation. In short, from the 'Shroud of Turin' to The 'da Vinci Code', from the 'Tomb of Jesus' to 'Noah's Ark', from the 'Templars' to the 'Holy Grail': you'll find here reliable facts. Even if they are unpopular. But in this Lombatti is being either dishonest or ignorant, comparing the painstaking research of Shroud pro-authenticists like Ian Wilson with the fiction-masquerading-as-fact of Dan Brown. `The Turin Shroud is only one of the many burial cloths which were circulating in the Christian world during the Middle Ages. There were at least 40,' said Lombatti. Again this is a false statement by Lombatti that these were "burial cloths." They were only copies of one original "burial cloth" - the Shroud of Turin (as it was later called). They self-evidently could not be burial cloths because their images were obviously painted. `Most of them were destroyed during the French Revolution. Some had images, others had blood-like stains, and others were completely white.' So Lombatti is lumping the Shroud of Turin with its photographic negative, three-dimensional, front and back image of a crucified Jesus, and real blood stains, with cloths that only "Some had images, others had blood-like stains, and others were completely white"! And again, as already pointed out, Lombatti misleads his readers by not informing them of the many unique features of the Shroud compared to these "at least 40" grossly inferior copies of it. The Turin Shroud is a linen cloth, about 14ft by 4ft, bearing a front and back view of the image of a bearded, naked man who appears to have been stabbed or tortured. And that's only for starters! And how many of Lombatti's "at least 40 ... burial cloths" were the full "about 14ft by 4ft, bearing a front and back ... image"? Ever since the detail on the cloth was revealed by negative photography in the late 19th century it has attracted thousands of pilgrims to the Cathedral of St John the Baptist in Turin. Yes, "negative photography"! How many of Lombatti's "at least 40 ... burial cloths" had a photographic negative image? Only one-the Shroud of Turin! In a research paper to be published this month in the scholarly journal Studi Medievali, Lombatti says the shroud was most likely given to French knight Geoffroy de Charny as a memento from a crusade to Smyrna, Turkey, in 1346. Again, note the speculative "most likely" to be added to Lombatti's previous qualification, "appears" and "probably"! Presumably Lombatti has no hard evidence of his claim otherwise he would have cited it in this article. It is well known that Geoffroy de Charny I (c. 1300–1356) was part of a crusade that fought in Smyrna, Turkey, in 1346, but there is no evidence that he acquired the Shroud then: "While the fate of Smyrna was still in the balance, a French nobleman, Humbert II, Dauphin of Vienne, announced his wish to go on a crusade. He was a weak though pious man, who succeeded in persuading the pope to give his crusade his blessing. After some indecision on the part of the pope, it was decided to send Humbert and his army to supplement the Christian effort at Smyrna. He set out from Marseilles with a company of knights and priests, which included Geoffrey de Charny the Elder, in May 1345 and reached Smyrna the following year. His army defeated the Turks in a battle outside the walls, but by 1347 the expedition had returned to France. The whole thing had been a singularly pointless exercise, but its importance lies in the theory advanced by some students of the Shroud's history, that Geoffrey de Charny obtained it in the course of the campaign. It must be said that there is singularly little evidence to support this theory, but as it has been recently repeated in a reputable article on the Shroud, I should mention it." (Currer-Briggs, N., "The Shroud and the Grail," 1987, p.48).wallstreeter43
January 17, 2013
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Lars , speaking about your supposed historian lombatti, lets take a look at his supposed claims in his article about the shroud being one of 40 forgeries made in 1330 shall we, since you brought up lombatti in the first place. I'm going to show you how many lies lombatti wrote and how good his history of the shroud is. When it comes to shroud he isn't even considered an amateur historian. This is from Stephen Jones shroud of turin blog, in which he left no stone unturned. I will post this in 3 parts because of the length of the articles. http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com/2012/06/turin-shroud-is-fake-and-its-one-of-40.html?m=1 [Above (click to enlarge): The frontal head and upper body area of a copy of the Turin Shroud discovered in 1999 in a box in the monasterial church of Broumov, Czechia (formerly Czechoslovakia). The linen cloth is 4.71 m x 1.2 m, about the same size as the Shroud. Accompanying it was a letter of authenticity from the then Archbishop of Turin, dated 4 May 1651. Unlike the Shroud original, but like all other copies of the Shroud, it has no photographic negative or three-dimensional properties, and the image shows brush strokes and paint particles. Also note the above Latin inscription "EXTRACTVM AB ORIGINALI" (derived from the original): Dr. Leo Bazant-Hegemark, "Report on the Czechia Shroud Copy," 1999 & "Broumovo vienuolynas," Mytrips.It, 1 September, 2011.] that Antonio Lombatti is claiming that the Shroud of Turin was forged about 1330. But then (for starters) Lombatti would have the problem of explaining away the Pray Manuscript, which is securely dated 1192-95 (i.e. about 135 years before Lombatti claims the Shroud was forged), and shares at least 12 unique features with the Shroud (see "My critique of "The Pray Codex," Wikipedia, 1 May 2011"). These include the following seven main features [my numbering in square brackets]: "Perhaps most compelling of all is a drawing on a page of the Hungarian Pray manuscript preserved in the National Szechenyi Library, Budapest ... [Berkovits, I., "Illuminated Manuscripts in Hungary, XI-XVI Centuries," 1969, pl.III] Not only do we yet again see the awkward [1] arm crossing, this time, most unusually, Jesus is represented as [2] totally nude, exactly as on the Shroud. Again exactly as in the case of the Shroud, all four fingers on each of Jesus's hands can be seen, but [3] no thumbs. Just over Jesus's right eye there is a [4] single forehead bloodstain. Delineated in red, this is located in exactly the same position as that very distinctive reverse '3'-shaped stain on Jesus's forehead on the Shroud that we noted earlier. Exactly as in the case of the Shroud, the cloth in which Jesus is being wrapped is of [5] double body length type, the second half, as known from other versions of the same scene, extending over Joseph of Arimathea's shoulder. If all this is not enough, the cover of what appears to be the tomb is decorated with a [6] herringbone pattern in which can be seen [7] four holes in an identical arrangement to the so-called 'poker-holes' on the Shroud that we have suggested were sustained during Caliph Mu'awiyah's 'trial by fire' experiment back around 680." (Wilson, I., "The Shroud: The 2000-Year-Old Mystery Solved," 2010, pp.183-184). So unless Lombatti can provide a plausible, comprehensive and point-by-point, explanation of those unique shared features on the Pray Manuscript and the Shroud (for starters), his theory that the Shroud was forged in Turkey in about 1330 must be rejected as inadequate. Not only is the Turin Shroud probably a medieval fake but it is just one of an astonishing 40 so-called burial cloths of Jesus, according to an eminent church historian. Note the qualification "probably." For the Shroud to be proved to be "a medieval fake" Lombatti (or his ilk) would have to: Prove conclusively that it could not have been the burial sheet of Jesus; Provide a convincing counter explanation of all the positive evidence for the Shroud's authenticity (e.g. the fifteen Vignon markings found on the Shroud and on Byzantine icons dating back to the 6th century; the Shroud image's major characteristics, including its photographic negativity centuries before photography was invented, its three-dimensionality, its extreme superficiality, its non-directionality; its anatomical accuracy centuries before that anatomical knowledge existed; the bloodclots that would have adhered to both the cloth and the body are unbroken; xray images of teeth and finger bones; the perfect fit of bloodstains on the back of the head with those on the Sudarium of Oviedo, which has been held in obscurity within a reliquary chest in Oviedo, Spain since at least 840, etc); Identify the forger and explain how he forged the Shroud image; and Duplicate the Shroud image on linen, complete with all its major features, using knowledge and technology only available in the 14th century or before. And also note Lombatti's false claim that these forty (plus) copies of the Shroud were "so-called burial cloths of Jesus." They would only be that if they all were claimed to be the original, but as we shall see below, most (if not all) of them were only claimed to be copies of the original Shroud of Turin (as it was later called). So unless Lombatti can provide a plausible, comprehensive and point-by-point, explanation of those unique shared features on the Pray Manuscript and the Shroud (for starters), his theory that the Shroud was forged in Turkey in about 1330 must be rejected as inadequate. Not only is the Turin Shroud probably a medieval fake but it is just one of an astonishing 40 so-called burial cloths of Jesus, according to an eminent church historian. Note the qualification "probably." For the Shroud to be proved to be "a medieval fake" Lombatti (or his ilk) would have to: Prove conclusively that it could not have been the burial sheet of Jesus; Provide a convincing counter explanation of all the positive evidence for the Shroud's authenticity (e.g. the fifteen Vignon markings found on the Shroud and on Byzantine icons dating back to the 6th century; the Shroud image's major characteristics, including its photographic negativity centuries before photography was invented, its three-dimensionality, its extreme superficiality, its non-directionality; its anatomical accuracy centuries before that anatomical knowledge existed; the bloodclots that would have adhered to both the cloth and the body are unbroken; xray images of teeth and finger bones; the perfect fit of bloodstains on the back of the head with those on the Sudarium of Oviedo, which has been held in obscurity within a reliquary chest in Oviedo, Spain since at least 840, etc); Identify the forger and explain how he forged the Shroud image; and Duplicate the Shroud image on linen, complete with all its major features, using knowledge and technology only available in the 14th century or before. And also note Lombatti's false claim that these forty (plus) copies of the Shroud were "so-called burial cloths of Jesus." They would only be that if they all were claimed to be the original, but as we shall see below, most (if not all) of them were only claimed to be copies of the original Shroud of Turin (as it was later called).wallstreeter43
January 17, 2013
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Is this an example of a cell's power plant, specified complexity or what! I found it in my emails today from the Discovery institute, I believe. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XI8m6o0gXDY&feature=youtu.beAxel
January 17, 2013
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Exactly Bornagain, and I was entrenched in evolution since college, so I never had a chance to even look at any other competing theories. When signature in the cell came out I couldn't believe what I was missing. I owe a lot to Stephen meyer.wallstreeter43
January 16, 2013
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wallstreeter43, Good for you!,,, and following the evidence where it leads, not blindly, but carefully following, is what science is suppose to be all about,,,bornagain77
January 16, 2013
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Wow BA, now you've given me some nice study material. I used to be a Theistic evolutionist until Stephen Meyers signature in the cell made rethink everything about it. Took me 5 years before I made the switch to ID. What a journey that was .wallstreeter43
January 16, 2013
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footnotes to the 'can't be tested' remark: in contrast to there being no identifiable falsification criteria for neo-Darwinism (at least no identifiable falsification criteria that neo-Darwinists will accept), ID, on the other hand, does provide a fairly rigid framework for falsification: Dembski’s original value for the universal probability bound is 1 in 10^150, 10^80, the number of elementary particles in the observable universe. 10^45, the maximum rate per second at which transitions in physical states can occur. 10^25, a billion times longer than the typical estimated age of the universe in seconds. Thus, 10^150 = 10^80 × 10^45 × 10^25. Hence, this value corresponds to an upper limit on the number of physical events that could possibly have occurred since the big bang. How many bits would that be: Pu = 10-150, so, -log2 Pu = 498.29 bits Call it 500 bits (The 500 bits is further specified as a specific type of information. It is specified as Complex Specified Information by Dembski or as Functional Information by Abel to separate it from merely Ordered Sequence Complexity or Random Sequence Complexity; See Three subsets of sequence complexity) Three subsets of sequence complexity and their relevance to biopolymeric information – Abel, Trevors http://www.tbiomed.com/content/2/1/29 This short sentence, “The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog” is calculated by Winston Ewert, in this following video at the 10 minute mark, to contain 1000 bits of algorithmic specified complexity, and thus to exceed the Universal Probability Bound (UPB) of 500 bits set by Dr. Dembski Proposed Information Metric: Conditional Kolmogorov Complexity – Winston Ewert – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fm3mm3ofAYU Michael Behe on Falsifying Intelligent Design – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8jXXJN4o_A Stephen Meyer – Functional Proteins And Information For Body Plans – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4050681 Here is a general overview of the predictions for Intelligent Design: A Positive, Testable Case for Intelligent Design – Casey Luskin – March 2011 – several examples of cited research http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/03/a_closer_look_at_one_scientist045311.html A Response to Questions from a Biology Teacher: How Do We Test Intelligent Design? - March 2010 Excerpt: Regarding testability, ID (Intelligent Design) makes the following testable predictions: (1) Natural structures will be found that contain many parts arranged in intricate patterns that perform a specific function (e.g. complex and specified information). (2) Forms containing large amounts of novel information will appear in the fossil record suddenly and without similar precursors. (3) Convergence will occur routinely. That is, genes and other functional parts will be re-used in different and unrelated organisms. (4) Much so-called “junk DNA” will turn out to perform valuable functions. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/03/a_response_to_questions_from_a.html On the Origin of Protein Folds - Jonathan M. - September 8, 2012 Excerpt: A common objection to the theory of intelligent design is that it makes no testable predictions, and thus there is no basis for calling it science at all. While recognizing that testability may not be a sufficient or necessary resolution of the "Demarcation Problem," my article, which I invite you to download, will consider one prediction made by ID and discuss how this prediction has been confirmed. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/09/on_the_origin_o_1064081.htmlbornagain77
January 16, 2013
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Okie Dokie KN, why don't you go ahead and dig through that 'self organization' paper that finds the modern synthesis to be woefully inadequate and find all the empirical evidence that they actually have for any naturalistic 'self-organization' processes ordering sequences of nucleotides and amino acids into functionally meaningful and novel proteins. Then you may actually have something 'scientific' to talk about rather than your usual self deluded 5000 word rambling of naturalistic pipe dreams! Self-organization vs. self-ordering events in life-origin models - Abel; Trevors Excerpt: No falsifiable theory of self-organization exists. “Self-organization” provides no mechanism and offers no detailed verifiable explanatory power. Care should be taken not to use the term “self-organization” erroneously to refer to low-informational, natural-process, self-ordering events, especially when discussing genetic information. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1571064506000224 Three subsets of sequence complexity and their relevance to biopolymeric information - Abel, Trevors Excerpt: Three qualitative kinds of sequence complexity exist: random (RSC), ordered (OSC), and functional (FSC).,,, Shannon information theory measures the relative degrees of RSC and OSC. Shannon information theory cannot measure FSC. FSC is invariably associated with all forms of complex biofunction, including biochemical pathways, cycles, positive and negative feedback regulation, and homeostatic metabolism. The algorithmic programming of FSC, not merely its aperiodicity, accounts for biological organization. No empirical evidence exists of either RSC of OSC ever having produced a single instance of sophisticated biological organization. Organization invariably manifests FSC rather than successive random events (RSC) or low-informational self-ordering phenomena (OSC).,,, Testable hypotheses about FSC What testable empirical hypotheses can we make about FSC that might allow us to identify when FSC exists? In any of the following null hypotheses [137], demonstrating a single exception would allow falsification. We invite assistance in the falsification of any of the following null hypotheses: Null hypothesis #1 Stochastic ensembles of physical units cannot program algorithmic/cybernetic function. Null hypothesis #2 Dynamically-ordered sequences of individual physical units (physicality patterned by natural law causation) cannot program algorithmic/cybernetic function. Null hypothesis #3 Statistically weighted means (e.g., increased availability of certain units in the polymerization environment) giving rise to patterned (compressible) sequences of units cannot program algorithmic/cybernetic function. Null hypothesis #4 Computationally successful configurable switches cannot be set by chance, necessity, or any combination of the two, even over large periods of time. We repeat that a single incident of nontrivial algorithmic programming success achieved without selection for fitness at the decision-node programming level would falsify any of these null hypotheses. This renders each of these hypotheses scientifically testable. We offer the prediction that none of these four hypotheses will be falsified. http://www.tbiomed.com/content/2/1/29bornagain77
January 16, 2013
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Yea BA777, I was also very impressed the doctors presentation in this video. I heard that he is also doing free presentations to any church that wants him to present, plus he is in constant contact with the sturp team, so if any new discoveries come out on the shroud, he will be among the first to know.wallstreeter43
January 16, 2013
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Thank you very much again bornagain, much appreciated :) I have a lot of knowledge on the shroud but because of my OCD , I have a very hard time organizing the information in an efficient way. Thank God your better at it then me. I can't for the life of me understand what Lars has against Christ. As for me, I can't think of anyone else I would want to spend all of eternity getting to know. Thanks again BA God bless Wallwallstreeter43
January 16, 2013
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JLAfan2001, this is correct because a lot of scientists have a natural lean towards methodological naturalism. This is why science as it is perceived by the naturalists today is being hindered, and is limited. Physicist John Jackson's cloth collapse theory is pretty good at explaining many of the effects of the shroud image, including his prediction of a second, more faint face image on the back side of the shroud, which most likely puts to rest any naturalistic explanation for the shroud image. Forget trying to find images that are like the shroud image. Try to even find o Any image at all on any burial shroud to begin with. They don't exist. The atheists are grasping at straws to try anything just to deny the obvious. There was a new book written very recently by Thomas Wesselow called the sign where he states that the by the historic evidence alone that the shroud is the authentic burial shroud of Jesus. This has caused considerable embarrassed to the atheist-agnostic community because wessellow is one of their own and believes in the authenticity of the shroud. He then gains some brownie points with with his fellow unbelievers by stating that the apostles belief in the resurrection of Christ is not based on them seeingbthebresurrected Christ but because they saw his faint image on the shroud, even though the is no historical evidence for his claims. Do you see how the mind of a hardened skeptic operates ? They will deny common sense and the evidence to be able to stick with their atheistic worldview, just as Lars has been doing, in accepting the the view that the shroud is a middle age forgery, even though all the evidence says otherwise. This is why atheism requires much more blind faith thenChristianity as well as emotional denial.wallstreeter43
January 16, 2013
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"LT just wants to flat out deny my posts." Well, it is not really that surprising since he has already admitted he is not a 'science' guy but is just more or less interested in trying to cast doubt on the Bible and Christianity by any means he can find. Not exactly a impartial party! :) None-the-less, I'm appreciative of all your work and am now trying to start organizing it,,, By the way, this video is excellent: Jesuit Grad Gives Presentation on the Shroud of Turin - Nov 29, 2012 - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcKTkjWkqEUbornagain77
January 16, 2013
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On the claim that Darwin's work is not "scientific", the question here is, on what conception of 'science'?. Michael Ghiselin, in his The Triumph of the Darwinian Method, argues that Darwin's method does not conform to Baconian induction, but that it does conform to what we today call "the hypothetico-deductive model" of scientific explanation. One might, I think, notice that Darwin's work is perfectly good science in Peirce's sense: (i) abduction (positing some unobservable to explain the observables); (ii) deduction (deducing what would be the case if the posit was real); (iii) induction (forming the relevant empirical generalizations from observations). My main criticism of design theory is that, as Kairosfocus has rightly noted, it performs the first step, abduction or inference-to-the-best-explanation -- and then it stops there. It does not deduce anything from the posited intelligent designer, nor does it form empirical generalizations based on what it observes. And I believe that design theory cannot deduce anything from the posited designer because the posit is too vaguely specified to yield any deducible consequences. The prohibition on "identifying the designer" means that the designer cannot be specified precisely enough to yield any deducible consequences, or put otherwise, it cannot be tested. So Darwin's work may not count as science by Bacon's criteria, but it does by Peirce's, whereas I don't see how contemporary design theory counts as scientific by either. As for whether Darwin's theory is correct or true, I think that contemporary work on "the extended synthesis" or "evo-devo" shows that Darwinism is basically correct but incomplete as a theory of evolution. Worth noting:
We trace the history of the Modern Evolutionary Synthesis, and of genetic Darwinism generally, with a view to showing why, even in its current versions, it can no longer serve as a general framework for evolutionary theory. The main reason is empirical. Genetical Darwinism cannot accommodate the role of development (and of genes in development) in many evolutionary processes. We go on to discuss two conceptual issues: whether natural selection can be the “creative factor” in a new, more general framework for evolutionary theorizing; and whether in such a framework organisms must be conceived as self-organizing systems embedded in self-organizing ecological systems.
Too bad for Depew and Weber that no one told them that the contributors to Uncommon Descent had decided that self-organization theory is nonsense.Kantian Naturalist
January 16, 2013
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Bornagain777, it's apparentl that instead of verifying what I have claimed LT just wants to flat out deny my posts. Everyone here can see who has done their research and who doesn't . As far as lombatti he has no credibility as a historian if he won't even include the Hungarian pray codex in his research. I don't care if there were 100 shroud duplicates in the 1300's or not. Ill say this one more time Lars , the Hungarian pray codex debunks him before he even started. He is not a respect shroud scholar, he's an amateur in this field . Ian wilson wouldn't be so careless as lombatti to leave the full history of the shroud out of his supposed research papers. As far as the other duplicate shrouds, they were all paintings, with none of them possessing the true characteristics of the shroud. You trying to make him into a real shroud scholar won't mask his very bad shroud research and omissions .wallstreeter43
January 16, 2013
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"my rough sense is that Darwin’s theory was subjected to intense scrutiny right from the beginning." No, it was pointed out as 'anti-science' right from the beginning: An Early Critique of Darwin Warned of a Lower Grade of Degradation - Cornelius Hunter - December 2012 Excerpt: Sedgwick began his review by explaining that he had read the younger Darwin’s manuscript “with more pain than pleasure.” For while parts were admirable and other parts humorous, there nonetheless were so many passages that Sedgwick read “with absolute sorrow; because I think them utterly false & grievously mischievous.” For Darwin, it seemed to Sedgwick, had abandoned the tried and true method of empirically-based scientific induction and substituted for it his own baseless assumptions: "Many of your wide conclusions are based upon assumptions which can neither be proved nor disproved. Why then express them in the language & arrangements of philosophical induction?" Neither proved nor disproved? What a prophecy of the evolutionary just-so stories to come. And as for Darwin’s grand principle, natural selection, “what is it but a secondary consequence of supposed, or known, primary facts.” Yet Darwin had smuggled in teleological language to avoid the absurdity and make it acceptable. For Darwin had written of natural selection “as if it were done consciously by the selecting agent.” Yet again, this criticism is cogent today. Teleological language is rampant in the evolutionary literature. http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2012/12/an-early-critique-of-darwin-warned-of.html Here is the entire letter in its polite but crushing critique: Letter from Adam Sedgewick to Charles Darwin - 1859 http://www.darwinproject.ac.uk/entry-2548 Anti-Science Irony (Who is really anti-science?) - October 2011 Excerpt: In response to a letter from Asa Gray, professor of biology at Harvard University, Darwin declared: “I am quite conscious that my speculations run quite beyond the bounds of true science.” Darwin was “anti-Science”. When questioned further by Gray, Darwin confirmed Gray’s suspicions: “What you hint at generally is very, very true: that my work is grievously hypothetical, and large parts are by no means worthy of being called induction.” Darwin had turned against the use of scientific principles in developing his theory of evolution.,,, Just two weeks before the (re)lease of The Origin of Species, Erasmus Darwin, his brother, consoled him in a letter: “In fact, the a priori reasoning is so entirely satisfactory to me that if the facts [evidence] won’t fit, why so much the worse for the facts, in my feeling.” http://www.darwinthenandnow.com/2011/10/anti-science-irony/ Moreover Mendelian genetics, named after a monk named Gregor Mendel who discovered the laws by which fixed traits are passed on, is very anti-Darwinian in its formulation. It was only the addition of 'random mutations' that allowed a very, very, rough fit in the modern synthesis between Mendelian Genetics and Darwinism. The trouble is that Mendelian Genetics remains steadfast to this day (perhaps some refinement with Genetic Entropy is needed), whereas the forced fitted addition of random mutations from Darwinism is what is now known to be wrong. Here is a short sweet overview of Mendel’s Accountant and the deep flaws revealed by population genetics with neo-Darwinism: God versus Darwin - When macro-evolution takes a final, it gets an "F" - Using Numerical Simulation to Test the Validity of Neo-Darwinian Theory (Mendel’s Accountant) Excerpt of Conclusion: This (computer) program (Mendel’s Accountant) is a powerful teaching and research tool. It reveals that all of the traditional theoretical problems that have been raised about evolutionary genetic theory are in fact very real and are empirically verifiable in a scientifically rigorous manner. As a consequence, evolutionary genetic theory now has no theoretical support—it is an indefensible scientific model. Rigorous analysis of evolutionary genetic theory consistently indicates that the entire enterprise is actually bankrupt. http://radaractive.blogspot.com/2010/06/god-versus-darwin-when-macro-evolution.html and let's not forget, The Fate of Darwinism: Evolution After the Modern Synthesis - January 2012 Excerpt: We trace the history of the Modern Evolutionary Synthesis, and of genetic Darwinism generally, with a view to showing why, even in its current versions, it can no longer serve as a general framework for evolutionary theory. The main reason is empirical. Genetical Darwinism cannot accommodate the role of development (and of genes in development) in many evolutionary processes. http://www.springerlink.com/content/845x02v03g3t7002/bornagain77
January 16, 2013
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When Darwin first published his book in 1859, it didn’t take long before it was widely accepted. I wonder if the theory of evolution was tested as much as the shroud in the 40 years after the publication before they pronounced it as fact or if they accepted it right away and then tested it?
My grasp of the relevant history is admittedly shaky -- I'm not an expert on this -- but my rough sense is that Darwin's theory was subjected to intense scrutiny right from the beginning. In particular, it was pointed out that if heritable characteristics "blended", then any variation would be washed away. There were also objections from physicists who pointed out that the Earth wasn't old enough for evolution to have taken place. The second objection was resolved when radioactivity was discovered, and the first objection wasn't really solved till Mendel's theory of genes won wide-spread acceptance and was integrated with the theory of natural selection. That didn't become settled until the "modern synthesis" of the 1950s.Kantian Naturalist
January 16, 2013
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What I find interesting, and I could be wrong on this, is that scientists and historians from all over have been studying the shroud for 40 years. They still can’t pronounce what it is despite where the evidence is leading because that would be admitting that the supernatural may exist. They HAVE to find a naturalistic answer or it’s not science. When Darwin first published his book in 1859, it didn’t take long before it was widely accepted. I wonder if the theory of evolution was tested as much as the shroud in the 40 years after the publication before they pronounced it as fact or if they accepted it right away and then tested it?JLAfan2001
January 16, 2013
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Yep LT, just keep telling yourself that you are being completely rational in your claim that a photographic negative holographic image was painted on the shroud by a medieval forger centuries before photography, much less 3-D holography, was even known about. Perhaps if you keep repeating the lie the lie will become true at least for you.bornagain77
January 16, 2013
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Arghh my length post didn't go through and I'm not gonna write it again. I explained to you in my posts before Lars about the history of the shroud. Either you haven't read what I posted or you conveniently skipped it. Is it too much to ask you to go back and do this, if you haven't done so already ? First of all there is a history of it, and I explained how the mandylion and the shroud are one and the same. You seem to have selective understanding. Sorry but I'm gonna have to call you out on it, and since you won't even look into it (as you stated that this subject doesn't interest you) it becomes you arguing out of ignorance versus me arguing from history. I also explained about why there was scarcely little mention of it for the first 300 years of Christianity, yet you also ignored that as well. To anyone that lived before 1898 (when the first photos were taken of the shroud), nothing about the shroud makes it any different than any other relic. It was only after that event that scientists came flooding into it. If you want to discuss it any further you really need to go through the historical and scientific literature, which you aren't willing to do as you stated before. I also layed out my case as to why the mandylion and shroud are one and the same and the mandylion a history goes back to the 6th century and if u believe the legend of Akbar it goes all the way back to Jesus. Your arguing with a toy pistol in you hand with someone that is equipped with the equivalent of a tomahawk missile. How long do you think you can bob and weave and dismiss the evidence simply becaus it goes against your already stated bias?wallstreeter43
January 16, 2013
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BA
You have been in constant retreat from your initial position (of medieval forgery)
No, I think that medieval forgery still seems most probable. I'm not in retreat at all. I'm trying to be honest about the level of my awareness of all the relevant facts in the matter. I know a few facts more now than I did last night, but I have been pretty consistent in declaring my ignorance on much about the matter...not that ignorance stops me from developing opinions! Wallstreeter's done a nice job in laying out some of the evidence he finds compelling. Given my ignorance of the circumstances behind the evidence, all I can give are visceral impressions of strength and weakness. Sorry, but by itself a the weave pattern doesn't sway me much It could, if I knew more, but I have also been honest that the subject matter doesn't appeal to me so I probably won't pursue it. If these are pot-shots, then I must be guilty. His problem, and yours, is that for all your bravado about "overwhelming evidence" and "pointing to God," you have very few material facts in your corner. Wallstreeter declared himself an expert on the shroud and called me out in strong terms. But what was so overwhelming about anything he presented? What was so compelling that I should think the cloth might be real after all? The weaving? The pollen? The limestone? Maybe I'm underestimating the significance of these things, and I am not dismissing them, but I'd be more persuaded by a textual tradition that discussed the shroud from its origin to its emergence in the medieval period. Heck, the main-main-main thing is the linen itself, which gets nary a mention. And you're completely wrong if you think I'm all about evolution and science. I'm not, and so I have nothing to say naturalistic processes and random mutations. I'm more of an a-Bible-ist. I'm fairly comfortable saying that the Bible (however conceived) is human invention. Commenter alan at one time wanted to discuss the Book of Daniel. OK. Let's talk about Daniel. I've started a thread over at my blog, and first I am looking at different translations and textual traditions. http://skepticink.com/atheistintermarried/2013/01/14/looking-at-biblical-prophecy-daniel-920-27/LarTanner
January 16, 2013
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Kudos BA777 on posting Mark Antonacci's research paper, this was a milestone for him as I believe this might be his first peer reviewed paper (if my memory isn't faulty as usual lol). It's ironic that Antonacci was an unbeliever that set out to shut his Christian girlfriend up because she kept preaching Christianity to him. His 20 years of research into the shroud ended up converting him into a Christian because he was honest enough to go where the evidence took him. Now he is a very passionate Christian himself. This is why I keep saying that the shroud is very dangerous to Atheists because the more dig into it the more pain it causes to their worldview . Simply put, it's Kryptonite to them. The pieces keep leading them to one person and one event that best describes what took place on that shroud: the resurrection .wallstreeter43
January 16, 2013
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Wait one minute, wallstreeter! Your latest response says not one word--one word!--about what Lombatti actually says in his paper. You deal with none of his points, none of his evidence. Instead, you accuse him of not taking seriously other stuff. Surely, Jones can find an appropriate venue for introducing these other facts that bear directly on Lombatti's argument. Lombatti has no scholarly obligation to consider every crackpot idea on the internet. You say:
Stephen Jones uses information from true shroud scholars who are respected for their accuracy
Oh, "true shroud scholars." I see. I take it that by "their accuracy" you mean "finding that the cloth really covered our lord and savior," right? My favorite:
As far as the Catholic Church is concerned, they take a neutral position publicly because the shroud isn’t needed for our faith , but privately many high up think it is the authentic burial cloth of Christ.
Too funny. You're right, they probably have no interest in doing anything that would confirm the true faith.[/sarcasm] Perhaps they figure also it's unwise to disrupt the cash cow. And this:
Why don’t you do a little reading on the seculars that were given control of the c14 dating, and see what the church officials in charge of the shroud were saying about the pressures put on them to take the sturp team out of the c14 dating tests, even though sturp had the most experience with the shroud.
Oh, great. Advise me to investigate a conspiracy theory. That's relevant. Wallstreeter, you talked all tough before about your big bad evidence and expertise. When exactly do you plan on dazzling us all with it? Surely you're not wasting everyone's time with bloggers and conspiracies, are you? The longer this goes on, the more I see I was right that investing my time into anything about the shroud would be wasted life.LarTanner
January 16, 2013
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Here is a very interesting video interview with Bruno Barberis, director of the International Center of Sindonology in Turin, Italy, who states that the Shroud is the 'actual burial cloth of Jesus' (I believe he touches on the reasoning of the Catholic Church's thinking behind the Shroud); Expert: Shroud 'actual burial cloth of Jesus' - interview with video http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=151025bornagain77
January 16, 2013
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LarTanner, It seems you have a easy game of it. You basically sit back and take pot shots at whatever evidence is presented to you. It is much like the evidence for Intelligent Design in life. Though the evidence is overwhelming that extremely sophisticated Intelligent Design is present in life, and though you have no evidence whatsoever that such levels unfathomed complexity can arise by natural processes (not even a single protein's worth of that complexity), you just sit back and arrogantly sniff, 'I don't think it is designed!'. Well so what?, Why should we care one iota that you are willingly, even eagerly, obtuse to overwhelming evidence that is so graciously presented to you? Much the same with the Shroud evidence thus far presented to you. You have been in constant retreat from your initial position (of medieval forgery) constantly sniffing all the way back in your retreat, and beneath it all, in your heart of hearts, I am firmly convinced that you have no intention whatsoever, even if driven all the way to the 1st century tomb of Christ itself on Easter morning, that any evidence will ever be good enough for you. Yet, despite the seemingly insane games you like to play with any evidence pointing towards God, the plain fact of the matter is that the Shroud simply refuses to be explained in any conceivable, quote/unquote, 'naturalistic' terms, and the evidence is very strong, compellingly so, that something very extraordinary happened in the image formation of the Shroud.,,, Indeed, contrary to your initial claim that a medieval forger is the leading explanation for explaining how the image formed on the Shroud, the truth is that a 'singularity' (a 'true' event horizon), of which the only other known examples are the Big Bang and Black Holes, is the leading explanation,,, Particle Radiation from the Body - July 2012 - M. Antonacci, A. C. Lind Excerpt: The Shroud’s frontal and dorsal body images are encoded with the same amount of intensity, independent of any pressure or weight from the body. The bottom part of the cloth (containing the dorsal image) would have born all the weight of the man’s supine body, yet the dorsal image is not encoded with a greater amount of intensity than the frontal image. Radiation coming from the body would not only explain this feature, but also the left/right and light/dark reversals found on the cloth’s frontal and dorsal body images. http://www.academicjournals.org/sre/PDF/pdf2012/30JulSpeIss/Antonacci.pdf THE EVENT HORIZON (Space-Time Singularity) OF THE SHROUD OF TURIN. - Isabel Piczek - Particle Physicist Excerpt: We have stated before that the images on the Shroud firmly indicate the total absence of Gravity. Yet they also firmly indicate the presence of the Event Horizon. These two seemingly contradict each other and they necessitate the past presence of something more powerful than Gravity that had the capacity to solve the above paradox. http://shroud3d.com/findings/isabel-piczek-image-formation this 'leading explanation' has only gained strength from what you, not so surprisingly, called 'shoddy' science: Shroud Of Turin Is Authentic, Italian Study Suggests - December 2011 Excerpt: Last year scientists were able to replicate marks on the cloth using highly advanced ultraviolet techniques that weren’t available 2,000 years ago — nor during the medieval times, for that matter.,,, Since the shroud and “all its facets” still cannot be replicated using today’s top-notch technology, researchers suggest it is impossible that the original image could have been created in either period. http://www.thegopnet.com/shroud-of-turin-is-authentic-italian-study-suggests-87037 Moreover, despite your atheistic druthers, there is nothing within reality, or within the human body, that I can find that would place a barrier between this happening. In fact, if one were to be completely honest with the evidence, it seems as if the entire universe, and even the human body itself was 'set up', to make such a 'burst of light' event possible. Of Note: How the Power of Intention Alters Matter - Dr. William A. Tiller Excerpt: "Most people think that the matter is empty, but for internal self consistency of quantum mechanics and relativity theory, there is required to be the equivalent of 10 to 94 grams of mass energy, each gram being E=MC2 kind of energy. Now, that's a huge number, but what does it mean practically? Practically, if I can assume that the universe is flat, and more and more astronomical data is showing that it's pretty darn flat, if I can assume that, then if I take the volume or take the vacuum within a single hydrogen atom, that's about 10 to the minus 23 cubic centimeters. If I take that amount of vacuum and I take the latent energy in that, there is a trillion times more energy there than in all of the mass of all of the stars and all of the planets out to 20 billion light-years. That's big, that's big. And if consciousness allows you to control even a small fraction of that, creating a big bang is no problem." - Dr. William Tiller - has been a professor at Stanford U. in the Department of materials science & Engineering http://www.beyondtheordinary.net/williamtiller.shtml etc.. etc..bornagain77
January 16, 2013
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JW, I respect your opinion, but to clearly understand what the early Christians believed about Jesus you need to read the early apostolic fathers to understand which interpretation of the bible is the correct one. People like ignatius of Antioch and polycarp who studied under the feet of the apostle John, and Clement of Rome who studied under the feet of the apostles Peter and Paul . These are the students of the apostles and they were in a much better position to fully understand the teachings of Christ through the apostles then someone 1800 years later.wallstreeter43
January 16, 2013
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