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Whose side are you on, Professor Coyne? What Anatole France really said about miracles

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Here’s a question for skeptics. Is there any evidence that would convince you that the laws of Nature can be suspended, and that miracles do indeed occur?

Interestingly, modern-day skeptics are divided on this issue. Professor P. Z. Myers and Dr. Michael Shermer say that nothing would convince them; while Professor Jerry Coyne and Professor Sean Carroll say that if the evidence were good enough, they would provisionally accept the reality of the supernatural. (See here and here for a round-up of their views.)

So I was surprised when Professor Jerry Coyne, in a recent post on the works of the great agnostic Robert Ingersoll (pictured above left), approvingly quoted a passage from his 1872 essay, The Gods, in which he declared that the occurrence of a miracle today would demonstrate the existence of a supernatural Deity, and then followed up with a quote from another great skeptic, Anatole France (pictured above right), whose position on the matter was precisely the opposite of Ingersoll’s!

Ingersoll: a skeptic, but an open-minded one

Here is a relevant excerpt from Ingersoll’s essay, The Gods. (N.B. All bold emphases in this post are mine – VJT):

There is but one way to demonstrate the existence of a power independent of and superior to nature, and that is by breaking, if only for one moment, the continuity of cause and effect. Pluck from the endless chain of existence one little link; stop for one instant the grand procession and you have shown beyond all contradiction that nature has a master…

The church wishes us to believe. Let the church, or one of its intellectual saints, perform a miracle, and we will believe. We are told that nature has a superior. Let this superior, for one single instant, control nature, and we will admit the truth of your assertions…

We want one fact. We beg at the doors of your churches for just one little fact. We pass our hats along your pews and under your pulpits and implore you for just one fact. We know all about your mouldy wonders and your stale miracles. We want a ‘this year’s fact’. We ask only one. Give us one fact for charity. Your miracles are too ancient. The witnesses have been dead for nearly two thousand years. Their reputation for “truth and veracity” in the neighborhood where they resided is wholly unknown to us. Give us a new miracle, and substantiate it by witnesses who still have the cheerful habit of living in this world…

We demand a new miracle, and we demand it now. Let the church furnish at least one, or forever after hold her peace.

Ingersoll was a skeptic, but at least he was an honest man, open to new evidence. Professor Coyne then went on to gleefully quote a short passage from Anatole France’s essay, Miracle, published in his 1895 anthology, Le Jardin d’Epicure (The Garden of Epicurus). In the essay, the author described a recent visit that he had made to Lourdes. His companion, upon noticing the discarded wooden crutches on display at the grotto, pointed them out and whispered in his ear:

“One single wooden leg would have been much more convincing.”

Anatole France’s 1895 essay, Miracle: a classic example of closed-minded dogmatism

The above translation is Coyne’s; he tells us that he had great difficulty in tracking down the original quote. (There are dozens of sites on the Internet where he could have found it, and the essay can also be found in the late Christopher Hitchens’ work, The Portable Atheist.) But what Coyne omitted to mention was that Anatole France then went on to add that no amount of evidence would convince him of the occurrence of a miracle, because of his prior commitment to naturalism. Below, I shall reproduce in its entirety France’s 1895 essay, Miracle, in order to give the reader an opportunity to see how philosophical rigidity can close the mind of a skeptic:

We should not say: There are no miracles, because none has ever been proved. This always leaves it open to the Orthodox to appeal to a more complete state of knowledge. The truth is, no miracle can, from the nature of things, be stated as an established fact; to do so will always involve drawing a premature conclusion. A deeply rooted instinct tells us that whatever Nature embraces in her bosom is conformable to her laws, either known or occult. But, even supposing he could silence this presentiment of his, a man will never be in a position to say: “Such and such a fact is outside the limits of Nature.” Our researches will never carry us as far as that. Moreover, if it is of the essence of miracle to elude scientific investigation, every dogma attesting it invokes an intangible witness that is bound to evade our grasp to the end of time.

This notion of miracles belongs to the infancy of the mind, and cannot continue when once the human intellect has begun to frame a systematic picture of the universe. The wise Greeks could not tolerate the idea. Hippocrates said, speaking of epilepsy: “This malady is called divine; but all diseases are divine, and all alike come from the gods.” There he spoke as a natural philosopher. Human reason is less assured of itself nowadays. What annoys me above all is when people say: “We do not believe in miracles, because no miracle is proved.”

Happening to be at Lourdes, in August, I paid a visit to the grotto where innumerable crutches were hung up in token of a cure. My companion pointed to these trophies of the sick-room and hospital ward, and whispered in my ear:

“One wooden leg would be more to the point.”

It was the word of a man of sense; but speaking philosophically, the wooden leg would be no whit more convincing than a crutch. If an observer of a genuinely scientific spirit were called upon to verify that a man’s leg, after amputation, had suddenly grown again as before, whether in a miraculous pool or anywhere else, he would not cry: “Lo! a miracle.” He would say this:

An observation, so far unique, points us to a presumption that under conditions still undetermined, the tissues of a human leg have the property of reorganizing themselves like a crab’s or lobster’s claws and a lizard’s tail, but much more rapidly. Here we have a fact of nature in apparent contradiction with several other facts of the like sort. The contradiction arises from our ignorance, and clearly shows that the science of animal physiology must be reconstituted, or to speak more accurately, that it has never yet been properly constituted. It is little more than two hundred years since we first had any true conception of the circulation of the blood. It is barely a century since we learned what is implied in the act of breathing.”

I admit it would need some boldness to speak in this strain. But the man of science should be above surprise. At the same time, let us hasten to add, none of them have ever been put to such a proof, and nothing leads us to apprehend any such prodigy. Such miraculous cures as the doctors have been able to verify to their satisfaction are all quite in accordance with physiology. So far the tombs of the Saints, the magic springs and sacred grottoes, have never proved efficient except in the case of patients suffering from complaints either curable or susceptible of instantaneous relief. But were a dead man revived before our eyes, no miracle would be proved, unless we knew what life is and death is, and that we shall never know.

What is the definition of a miracle? We are told: a breach of the laws of nature. But we do not know the laws of nature; how, then, are we to know whether a particular fact is a breach of these laws or no?

“But surely we know some of these laws?”

“True, we have arrived at some idea of the correlation of things. But failing as we do to grasp all the natural laws, we can be sure of none, seeing they are mutually interdependent.”

“Still, we might verify our miracle in those series of correlations we have arrived at.”

“No, not with anything like philosophical certainty. Besides, it is precisely those series we regard as the most stable and best determined which suffer least interruption from the miraculous. Miracles never, for instance, try to interfere with the mechanism of the heavens. They never disturb the course of the celestial bodies, and never advance or retard the calculated date of an eclipse. On the contrary, their favourite field is the obscure domain of pathology as concerned with the internal organs, and above all nervous diseases. However, we must not confound a question of fact with one of principle. In principle the man of science is ill-qualified to verify a supernatural occurrence. Such verification presupposes a complete and final knowledge of nature, which he does not possess, and will never possess, and which no one ever did possess in this world. It is just because I would not believe our most skilful oculists as to the miraculous healing of a blind man that a fortiori I do not believe Matthew or Mark either, who were not oculists. A miracle is by definition unidentifiable and unknowable.”

The savants cannot in any case certify that a fact is in contradiction with the universal order that is with the unknown ordinance of the Divinity. Even God could do this only by formulating a pettifogging distinction between the general manifestations and the particular manifestations of His activity, acknowledging that from time to time He gives little timid finishing touches to His work and condescending to the humiliating admission that the cumbersome machine He has set agoing needs every hour or so, to get it to jog along indifferently well, a push from its contriver’s hand.

Science is well fitted, on the other hand, to bring back under the data of positive knowledge facts which seemed to be outside its limits. It often succeeds very happily in accounting by physical causes for phenomena that had for centuries been regarded as supernatural. Cures of spinal affections were confidently believed to have taken place at the tomb of the Deacon Paris at Saint-Medard and in other holy places. These cures have ceased to surprise since it has become known that hysteria occasionally simulates the symptoms associated with lesions of the spinal marrow.

The appearance of a new star to the mysterious personages whom the Gospels call the “Wise Men of the East” (I assume the incident to be authentic historically) was undoubtedly a miracle to the Astrologers of the Middle Ages, who believed that the firmament, in which the stars were stuck like nails, was subject to no change whatever. But, whether real or supposed, the star of the Magi has lost its miraculous character for us, who know that the heavens are incessantly perturbed by the birth and death of worlds, and who in 1866 saw a star suddenly blaze forth in the Corona Borealis, shine for a month, and then go out.

It did not proclaim the Messiah; all it announced was that, at an infinitely remote distance from our earth, an appalling conflagration was burning up a world in a few days, — or rather had burnt it up long ago, for the ray that brought us the news of this disaster in the heavens had been on the road for five hundred years and possibly longer.

The miracle of Bolsena is familiar to everybody, immortalized as it is in one of Raphael’s Stanze at the Vatican. A skeptical priest was celebrating Mass; the host, when he broke it for Communion, appeared bespattered with blood. It is only within the last ten years that the Academies of Science would not have been sorely puzzled to explain so strange a phenomenon. Now no one thinks of denying it, since the discovery of a microscopic fungus, the spores of which, having germinated in the meal or dough, offer the appearance of clotted blood. The naturalist who first found it, rightly thinking that here were the red blotches on the wafer in the Bolsena miracle, named the fungus micrococcus prodigiosus.

There will always be a fungus, a star, or a disease that human science does not know of; and for this reason it must always behoove the philosopher, in the name of the undying ignorance of man, to deny every miracle and say of the most startling wonders, — the host of Bolsena, the star in the East, the cure of the paralytic and the like: Either it is not, or it is; and if it is, it is part of nature and therefore natural.

Seven flawed arguments against miracles

Anatole France’s essay on miracles is riddled with flaws. The fallacy in the final paragraph, where he argues that whatever exists, must be natural, should be evident to readers, without the need for further comment.

The second great fallacy in France’s reasoning regarding miracles is that he neglects probability, and frames the issue only in terms of certitude. Even if we grant his point that science can never know all the laws of Nature and can therefore never show that an event is miraculous, the fact remains that certain events are astronomically improbable – indeed, so improbable that the only prudent conclusion to draw, if one observed them, would be that they are miraculous. A tornado blowing a house down does not strike us as remarkable, but rewind the tape, and I think that even hardened skeptics would agree that here we have a sequence of events which is so improbable that we would have to call it a miracle.

Third, if Anatole France’s argument that scientists can never know all the laws of Nature were correct, then by the same token, they could never know for sure that the universe is a closed system – in which case, France’s a priori argument against the possibility of miracles collapses.

Fourth, it might be urged by modern-day skeptics that the discovery of a Grand Unified Theory of Everything, which some physicists dream of, would allow scientists to ascertain which events are ruled out by the laws of Nature, as it would yield a complete list of those laws. But if it did that, then the scientifically verified occurrence of an event ruled out by the laws of Nature would have to count as evidence for the supernatural.

Fifth, the tired old Humean objection that no matter how strong the evidence for a miracle may be, it is always more likely that the witnesses to that miracle are either lying or mistaken, rests upon a mathematical flaw, which was pointed out long ago by Charles Babbage, in his Ninth Bridgewater Treatise (2nd ed., London, 1838; digitized for the Victorian Web by Dr. John van Wyhe and proof-read by George P. Landow). I’d like to quote here from David Coppedge’s masterly online work, THE WORLD’S GREATEST CREATION SCIENTISTS From Y1K to Y2K:

Babbage’s Ninth Bridgewater Treatise (hereafter, NBT) is available online and makes for interesting reading … Most interesting is his rebuttal to the arguments of David Hume (1711-1776), the skeptical philosopher who had created quite a stir with his seemingly persuasive argument against miracles. Again, it was based on the Newtonian obsession with natural law. Hume argued that it is more probable that those claiming to have seen a miracle were either lying or deceived than that the regularity of nature had been violated. Babbage knew a lot more about the mathematics of probability than Hume. In chapter X of NBT, Babbage applied numerical values to the question, chiding Hume for his subjectivity. A quick calculation proves that if there were 99 reliable witnesses to the resurrection of a man from the dead (and I Corinthians 15:6 claims there were over 500), the probability is a trillion to one against the falsehood of their testimony, compared to the probability of one in 200 billion against anyone in the history of the world having been raised from the dead. This simple calculation shows it takes more faith to deny the miracle than to accept the testimony of eyewitnesses. Thus Babbage renders specious Hume’s assertion that the improbability of a miracle could never be overcome by any number of witnesses. Apply the math, and the results do not support that claim, Babbage says: “From this it results that, provided we assume that independent witnesses can be found of whose testimony it can be stated that it is more probable that it is true than that it is false, we can always assign a number of witnesses which will, according to Hume’s argument, prove the truth of a miracle. (Italics in original.) Babbage takes his conquest of Hume so far that by Chapter XIII, he argues that “It is more probable that any law, at the knowledge of which we have arrived by observation, shall be subject to one of those violations which, according to Hume’s definition, constitutes a miracle, than that it should not be so subjected.”

Sixth, Anatole France’s snide put-down of the miracles worked by a Deity as being tantamount to “little timid finishing touches to His work,” which are required because “the cumbersome machine He has set agoing needs every hour or so, to get it to jog along indifferently well, a push from its contriver’s hand,” was also convincingly rebutted by Charles Babbage. To quote Coppedge again:

The heart of NBT [the Ninth Bridgewater Treatise – VJT] is an argument that miracles do not violate natural law, using Babbage’s own concept of a calculating machine. This forms an engaging thought experiment. With his own Analytical Engine undoubtedly fresh on his mind, he asks the reader to imagine a calculating engine that might show very predictable regularity, even for billions of iterations, such as a machine that counts integers. Then imagine it suddenly jumps to another natural law, which again repeats itself with predictable regularity. If the designer of the engine had made it that way on purpose, it would show even more intelligent design than if it only continued counting integers forever. Babbage extends his argument through several permutations, to the point where he convinces the reader that it takes more intelligence to design a general purpose calculating engine that can operate reliably according to multiple natural laws, each known to the designer, each predictable by the designer, than to design a simple machine that mindlessly clicks away according to a single law. So here we see Babbage employing his own specialty – the general-purpose calculating machine – to argue his point. He concluded, therefore, as he reiterated in his later autobiographical work Passages from the Life of a Philosopher (1864), miracles are not “the breach of established laws, but… indicate the existence of far higher laws.”

Babbage’s suggestion is an intriguing one, which invites the question: how exactly should a miracle be defined? Should it be defined as the violation of the laws of Nature, or should it be simply be defined as an event at variance with lower-level laws, which support the regular order of things? Perhaps the latter definition would be more fruitful. And that brigs me to a seventh flaw in France’s argument against miracles: even if he were right in saying that whatever happens, happens in accordance with some law of Nature, what he fails to realize is that this argument against supernaturalism only holds if scientific reductionism is true. In other words, France is assuming that there are no higher-level laws of Nature (perhaps known only to the Author of Nature) which govern rare and singular occurrences, and which cannot be derived from the lower-level laws which support the regular order of Nature. France has no response to the question: what is so absurd about the concept of a singular law, or more generally, a law which does not supervene upon lower-level laws?

But rather than waste time arguing about the definition of a miracle, I would argue that the more profound question is: what kind of evidence warrants belief in an Intelligent Designer of Nature, and what kind of evidence should lead us to conclude that this Designer is a supernatural Being?

I might add that Anatole France never bothered to check out the evidence for Eucharistic miracles (see also here), or for God healing amputees (see here). I would invite readers to draw their own conclusions on those matters. While I can certainly understand and respect the attitude of a skeptic who says that the available evidence for miracles is not strong enough to sway his/her mind, I have to say that a skeptic like Anatole France, who refuses to even consider the possibility that he/she may be wrong strikes very much like the Aristotelian philosophers of the 17th century who, according to popular legend, refused even to look through Galileo’s telescope, because they feared that it might falsify their theories. (By the way, that story is apocryphal – see here.)

A question for Professor Coyne: whose side are you on?

I would now like to ask Professor Coyne and my skeptical readers: whose side are you on? Do you side with Ingersoll, who would be convinced were he to witness a modern miracle? Or do you side with Anatole France, who stoutly maintains that nothing would convince him of the occurrence of a miracle? You cannot have it both ways.

Until now, Professor Coyne has always declared himself to be open to the possibility of a miracle. Science, he believes, could in principle supply strong evidence (but not proof) of the miraculous. In a November 8, 2010 post entitled, Shermer and I disagree on the supernatural, Coyne wrote:

I don’t see science as committed to methodological naturalism — at least in terms of accepting only natural explanations for natural phenomena. Science is committed to a) finding out what phenomena are real, and b) coming up with the best explanations for those real, natural phenomena. Methodological naturalism is not an a priori commitment, but a strategy that has repeatedly worked in science, and so has been adopted by all working scientists.

As for me, I am committed only to finding out what phenomena really occur, and then making a hypothesis to explain them, whether that hypothesis be “supernatural” or not. In principle we could demonstrate ESP or telekinesis, both of which violate the laws of physics, and my conclusion would be, for the former, “some people can read the thoughts of others at a distance, though I don’t know how that is done.” If only Christian prayers were answered, and Jesus appeared doing miracles left and right, documented by all kinds of evidence, I would say, “It looks as if some entity that comports with the Christian God is working ‘miracles,’ though I don’t know how she does it.” ….

Science can never prove anything. If you accept that, then we can never absolutely prove the absence of a “supernatural” god — or the presence of one. We can only find evidence that supports or weakens a given hypothesis. There is not an iota of evidence for The God Hypothesis, but I claim that there could be.

Sean Carroll on the supernatural

Professor Coyne is not alone in his rejection of dogmatic methodological naturalism. The atheist physicist Sean Carroll has candidly acknowledged that there is a possibility, in principle, that science could one day decide in favor of the miraculous, in an essay refreshingly free from dogmatism, entitled, Is Dark Matter Supernatural? (Discover magazine, November 1, 2010):

Let’s imagine that there really were some sort of miraculous component to existence, some influence that directly affected the world we observe without being subject to rigid laws of behavior. How would science deal with that?

The right way to answer this question is to ask how actual scientists would deal with that, rather than decide ahead of time what is and is not “science” and then apply this definition to some new phenomenon. If life on Earth included regular visits from angels, or miraculous cures as the result of prayer, scientists would certainly try to understand it using the best ideas they could come up with. To be sure, their initial ideas would involve perfectly “natural” explanations of the traditional scientific type. And if the examples of purported supernatural activity were sufficiently rare and poorly documented (as they are in the real world), the scientists would provisionally conclude that there was insufficient reason to abandon the laws of nature. What we think of as lawful, “natural” explanations are certainly simpler — they involve fewer metaphysical categories, and better-behaved ones at that — and correspondingly preferred, all things being equal, to supernatural ones.

But that doesn’t mean that the evidence could never, in principle, be sufficient to overcome this preference. Theory choice in science is typically a matter of competing comprehensive pictures, not dealing with phenomena on a case-by-case basis. There is a presumption in favor of simple explanation; but there is also a presumption in favor of fitting the data. In the real world, there is data favoring the claim that Jesus rose from the dead: it takes the form of the written descriptions in the New Testament. Most scientists judge that this data is simply unreliable or mistaken, because it’s easier to imagine that non-eyewitness-testimony in two-thousand-year-old documents is inaccurate that to imagine that there was a dramatic violation of the laws of physics and biology. But if this kind of thing happened all the time, the situation would be dramatically different; the burden on the “unreliable data” explanation would become harder and harder to bear, until the preference would be in favor of a theory where people really did rise from the dead.

There is a perfectly good question of whether science could ever conclude that the best explanation was one that involved fundamentally lawless behavior. The data in favor of such a conclusion would have to be extremely compelling, for the reasons previously stated, but I don’t see why it couldn’t happen. Science is very pragmatic, as the origin of quantum mechanics vividly demonstrates. Over the course of a couple decades, physicists (as a community) were willing to give up on extremely cherished ideas of the clockwork predictability inherent in the Newtonian universe, and agree on the probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics. That’s what fit the data. Similarly, if the best explanation scientists could come up with for some set of observations necessarily involved a lawless supernatural component, that’s what they would do. There would inevitably be some latter-day curmudgeonly Einstein figure who refused to believe that God ignored the rules of his own game of dice, but the debate would hinge on what provided the best explanation, not a priori claims about what is and is not science.

There is much wisdom in Carroll’s words. Science cannot let itself be imprisoned by metaphysical dogmas.

More about Ingersoll: what did he believe on God and a hereafter, and what drove him to attack religion?

Before I finish, I’d like to add one more quote from Robert Ingersoll’s essay, The Gods. It’s a real pity that Professor Coyne didn’t quote this passage, as it illustrates perfectly the misplaced confidence of the skeptic:

A new world has been discovered by the microscope; everywhere has been found the infinite; in every direction man has investigated and explored and nowhere, in earth or stars, has been found the footstep of any being superior to or independent of nature. Nowhere has been discovered the slightest evidence of any interference from without.

Famous last words! Abiogenesis, anyone? And what about the fine-tuning argument? Ingersoll was at least an honest doubter. I wonder what conclusions he would draw if he were alive today.

But even Ingersoll was, it seems, the prisoner of his age. Although he expressed a willingness, in principle, to accept evidence of miracles, apparently he found the idea of a genuinely supernatural Being inconceivable. In an interview with The Dispatch (Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, December 11, 1880), Ingersoll declared [scroll down to page 57]:

There may be a God for all I know. There may be thousands of them. But the idea of an independent Being outside and independent of Nature is inconceivable. I do not know of any word or doctrine that would explain my views upon that subject. I suppose Pantheism is as near as I could go. I believe in the eternity of matter and thee eternity of intelligence, but I do not believe in any being outside of Nature. I do not believe in any personal Deity. I do not believe in any aristocracy of the air. I know nothing about origin or destiny…. I believe that in all matter, in some way, there is what we call force; that one of the forms of force is intelligence.

Regarding immortality, however, Ingersoll was more open-minded. In the same interview, he acknowledged that there might be an afterlife, and in a revealing passage, he admitted that what drove him in his crusade against religion was one thing and one thing only: the doctrine, which he found deeply abhorrent, of an everlasting Hell to which the majority of human beings would be consigned:

My opinion of immortality is this:
First.- I live, and that of itself is infinitely wonderful. Second.- There was a time when I was not, and after I was not, I was. Third.- Now that I am, I may be again; and it is no more wonderful that I may be again, if I have been, than that I am, having once been nothing. If the churches advocated immortality, if they advocated eternal justice, if they said that man would be rewarded and punished according to deeds; if they admitted that at some time in eternity there would be an opportunity to lift up souls, and that throughout all the ages the angels of progress and virtue, would beckon the fallen upward; and that some time, and no matter how far away they might put off the time, all the children of men would be reasonably happy, I never would say a solitary word against the church, but just as long as they preach that the majority of mankind will suffer eternal pain, just so long I shall oppose them; that is to say, as long as I live.

I wonder what Ingersoll would make of the late Cardinal Avery Dulles’ essay, The Population of Hell (First Things, May 2003), if he were alive in the 21st century. And I wonder if Professor Coyne will be brave enough to print the foregoing passage from Ingersoll, in his weekly series over at Why Evolution Is True on the great skeptic’s views. We shall see.

Comments
Lars, as I said before, lombatti shows his bias by leaving out the many clues that prove him wrong. The illustration on the Hungarian pray codex is clearly of the shroud of turin, complete with the 4 poker burn holes, but not the burns from the fire that happened to the shroud in the 1500's. The Hungarian pray codex is dated from 1192. Lombatti also leaves out the perfect fit in blood stains between the sudarium of oveido and the bloodbstains on the head image of the shroud. Lombatti clearly leaves all of this out. Could it be because he is an atheist? He definitely isn't a well respected scholar when it comes to shroud history because he has conveniently left out a lot of detail. Ian Wilson on the other hand is a well respected historian when it comes to the shroud and sudarium and luckily enough, he doesn't leave out these details. Lombatti tries to make us believe that just because there were 40 copies of the shroud floating around that this shroud is also a fake, when I've already stated that none of the shroud copies possess any of the unique characteristics that this one has . Stephen Jones uses information from true shroud scholars who are respected for their accuracy, unlike lombatti who is clearly dishonest when it comes to the history of the shroud. Forensic science tells us that the shroud and sudarium were both on the same body within very close time intervals, and the sudarium's history is undisputed going back to the 6th century. As far as the Catholic Church is concerned, they take a neutral position publicly because the shroud isn't needed for our faith , but privately many high up think it is the authentic burial cloth of Christ. Why don't you do a little reading on the seculars that were given control of the c14 dating, and see what the church officials in charge of the shroud were saying about the pressures put on them to take the sturp team out of the c14 dating tests, even though sturp had the most experience with the shroud. Lar, if you studied what lombatti wrote, you yourself could easily debunk him from the Hungarian pray codex alone, and this is without the other evidences I have given you.wallstreeter43
January 16, 2013
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JWT, I don't buy your Jehovah's Witness metaphysics, period!bornagain77
January 16, 2013
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@bornagain77:
JWT, I noticed you stealthly avoided trying to say the Shroud was a fake again, what’s a matter?
It takes time to parse all the text wallstreet has written... and I have a job.
don’t you want to back up your dogmatic atheistic compadre LT? Strange company you are keeping LT to defend your supposedly theistic beliefs!
Watch your tone, kid. I don't keep company with LT.
Of note: The Sadducees, who like you did not believe in life after death
Resurrection is real. Life after death takes place on paradise earth. I've already told you so.JWTruthInLove
January 16, 2013
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Wall,
Stephen Jones has already thoroughly debunked him. Yes there were duplicates of the shroud made in the Middle Ages, but those were clearly paintings and were well known as duplicates, possessing none of the unique characteristics the shroud has.
Most people are well advised to take a blogger's "debunking" with a grain of salt. On the other hand, Lombatti is a respected scholar and his most recent paper in the academic journal Studi Medievali states "the shroud was most likely given to French knight Geoffroy de Charny as a memento from a crusade to Smyrna, Turkey, in 1346. The de Charny family are the first recorded owners of the shroud." Now, I am not saying that Lombatti is automatically credible and his arguments iron-clad. Neither am I dismissing Jones and his arguments. Nevertheless, the greater weight goes to Lombatti, at least until Jones or someone else publishes a cogent case showing the flaws in Lombatti's logic and/or sources of evidence. Also, your statements above still seem to suggest that the scientific dating of the shroud places it post-ancient world. While you have indicated that some dating attempts may have been flawed--even fraudulent--the dating in general seems to be consistent. Like you, I take the scientific dating with some skepticism. But I think the consistency is compelling, and less easily explained away than the three points you make about the weave pattern, the pollen, and the limestone. One other question: The Vatican has not come out to state the authenticity of the shroud. Why is this? I don't take their reticence as a particular sign of anything, but I'm curious.LarTanner
January 16, 2013
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Oops, I was having some problems with my posts here. Not sure if I left the links to Stephen Jones sites but he has some of the information on the shroud of turin. http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com/?m=1 http://members.iinet.net.au/~sejones/shroudot.html http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com/2012/01/john-p-jackson-unconventional.html?m=1 He also has an excellent article about John Jackson's cloth collapse theory, in which John Jackson predicted that there would be a smaller, fainter secondary back image on the back of the cloth, and when they took off the back stitching years later a smaller image of Jesus's face was found. The cloth collapse theory predicts that the man on the shroud had passed through the shroud during its image formation . Remember the video presentation link on YouTube I posted. It talks about how the blood clots on the shroud are neither broken or smeared, meaning the man on the shroud had o have gotten off the shroud in a very unnatural way. Jackson's cloth collapse theory fits perfectly as an explanation. Once you put all the bread crumbs together, it becomes very obvious who the man on the shroud is. Ba777 , thanks man for the link to the burial shroud finds. Checking it out nowwallstreeter43
January 15, 2013
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Vjturley your very welcome my friend :), I also got a bit more coming Wall Cool bornagain, when I started researching the shroud 4 years back, I decided that I would start with the skeptic sites first so that I would know both sides of the story, and they screamed the loudest lol. When I was done, it was amazing how flimsy the evidence was from the skeptic's side. The more pro authenticy evidence I found the more obsessed I became with it. BA777, I'm not sure if I left a link to Stephenwallstreeter43
January 15, 2013
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Vjturley your very welcome my friend :), I also got a bit more coming Wallwallstreeter43
January 15, 2013
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WOW Wallstreeter, I going to have to take a few hours to go through your notes and collect all your references together in one spot.bornagain77
January 15, 2013
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LT, if you want a good refutation of lombatti, Stephen Jones has already thoroughly debunked him. Yes there were duplicates of the shroud made in the Middle Ages, but those were clearly paintings and were well known as duplicates, possessing none of the unique characteristics the shroud has. Nobody knew of these unique characteristics until segundo pia was commissioned to take the first photographs of the shroud in 1898. As he developed his negative plates what he saw on them shocked him in such a way that he almost dropped the plates. Instead of a negative appearing on the plates, a positive image appeared, and this was when scientists of all fields converged on it. Some scientists even theorized that the shroud possessed 3d information, but that wasn't proven until I believe the late 1970's or 1980's when physicist John Jackson of NASA passed a picture of the shroud through a sofisticated divice called the vp8 image analyzer. The vp8 is used to map out the terrain in 3d of the surface of mars and the moon. If you pass any regular photo through it , the picture comes out all mumbled and messed up, when they passed a picture of the shroud through it, a perfect 3d image came out of a body and face. The shroud of turin is the only 2d image on earth that is encoded with 3d spatial information on it. No middle age forger could have done this. As far as staying objective, it was a bit hard at the beginning because I've seen many relics come and go, but as the scientific and historic evidence kept coming in, my confidence in the shroud kept growing. The sturp team having people on it from all worldviews was also the best thing that could have been done for shroud research. There was a large concentration of agnostics on the team (I believe 25%). One agnostic on the team was August Accetta who grew up in a Christian family but grew to believe that Christianity and religion in general was just a way people used for making themselves feel. Comfortable with death when they got older. His conversion started with the shroud and he came back to Christ through many years of shroud research and his studies of the gospel. This is his website http://www.shroudcentersocal.com/founder.html Dr. Accetta has published four peer-reviewed papers on the Shroud in the area of Nuclear Imaging, while collaborating with a number of high ranking medical colleagues. He maintains regular contact worldwide with the principal researchers and leading authors pertaining to the Shroud. His research came closest to duplicating the some of the many unique characteristics of the shroud image and it was in nuclear imaging. He had the guts to put his body on the line by ingesting potentially harmfull radiation in a gamma radiation hunch. The shroud has converted many open minded agnostics. Professor Jackson's wife rebecca was an Orthodox Jew who was the expert in ancient Jewish burial customs. She also converted to Christianity through her research of the shroud.wallstreeter43
January 15, 2013
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"Please don’t think you are somehow less biased and dogmatic" Actually LT, I started out thinking that Darwinism was true to some extent, and had to carefully study the evidence for years to realize that Darwinism has ZERO substantiating evidence for 'vertical evolution'. So I guess since I was open to the evidence leading either way, that would, contrary to what you believe, make me less dogmatic than you! And still you can still show me one molecular machine produced by Darwinian processes and I would admit I am wrong, but there is no such threshold with you. As far as I can tell you are pretty immune to what the evidence says and believe what you want to believe no matter what!bornagain77
January 15, 2013
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Well LT, I'm just curious as to how you can so easily dismiss a 'myth' fitting such a foundational puzzle of modern science. The resurrection of Christ should not even be on the radar scope of reason as to supplying a very plausible reconciliation of General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics! Not even by a long shot should this be as credible as it is to the number one problem of science! ,,, And yet you sniff in your usual dogmatic atheistic style (as you do at all the unfathomed complexity in biological life) as if this is a burnt 'toast' image we are trying to sell you. You MUST BE MAD!bornagain77
January 15, 2013
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BA, I have biases and even dogma. It's true. I'm not ashamed of them at all and make no attempt to hide them. Please don't think you are somehow less biased and dogmatic. You are not. I've actually pained myself to read some of that stuff you link to that--ahem--reconciles all the yatta-yatta. Is it OK if I don't take the inferential leaps you do? At some point, people in this world simply have to realize that some perspectives are irreconcilable. I don't mind that you see Jesus in the toast of quantum mechanics, why do you mind that I don't?LarTanner
January 15, 2013
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As well LT, are not you the least bit curious as to how the resurrection of Christ could offer a very credible reconciliation between General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics? Or is this just another one of those inconvenient 'coincidences' that are best left ignored by intellectual atheists? Centrality of Each Individual Observer In The Universe and Christ’s Very Credible Reconciliation Of General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics https://docs.google.com/document/d/17SDgYPHPcrl1XX39EXhaQzk7M0zmANKdYIetpZ-WB5Y/edit?hl=en_USbornagain77
January 15, 2013
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"I’m from a Jewish background. I could never, ever be a Christian." Even if you find that Christianity is true you could not be a Christian? LT your dogmatic bias is showing again!bornagain77
January 15, 2013
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Ok, wallstreeter. So I have a decent re-cap of what we are talking about, the main evidence is: (1) A three-way herringbone weave, prevalent in the ancient world, not in the medieval. (2) Distinctive Jerusalem-region pollens on the shroud. [Question: if they only bloomed in the summer, doesn't that make a Passover-time death rather early for pollen?] (3) Rare microscopic limestone that comes almost exclusively from Jerusalem. You say:
To Truely understand the shroud you would really need to delve into all of these evidences to understand their significance for authenticity.
Understood, but I don't find this specific subject interesting, so I can't see pursuing it much more. You then say:
Your claim that if we couldn’t get an accurate c14 reading on the shroud makes it a forgery is the thing that is Truely crazy.
I did not say this. I observed that Rogers faulted the 1988 study and its conclusions. Then you say:
The first unofficial c14 dating placed it at 200 ad. The 88 testing broke 13 protocols that by themselves invalidated the testing itself. They didn’t even do a chemical analysis testing to make sure the sample was indicative of the rest of the shroud (something Rogers corrected for them later). The secular people in charge of the testing got the sturp team taken out, and also ignored their recommendations to have a chemical analysis test done on it.
Intriguing. Next:
And anyone in archeology and the related sciences will tell u that you can’t determine the age of a relic from one piece of evidence. It must be an eclectic approach. Archeologists had ancient Egyptian relics found that c14 tests show to be from 1000 ad but every other piece of evidence shows it to be thousands of years older.
So far, based on everything you have presented, the implication seems to be that the dating places the shroud later than Second-temple era. You argue that the three items listed at the top hold more weight than scientific date estimates. I'm not criticizing or judging: just stating what your case seems to be. You say:
Your comment is one from a person that is trying to sweep all of the evidence for authenticity under the rug, to try to muddy the waters a bit. This is a person in denial.
I have admitted to not knowing the evidence before, so how could I sweep it under the rug. You were once skeptical, weren't you? Can't you understand why one would be hard-pressed to take an authenticity claim seriously? After all, you are saying that (a) the shroud was the one belonging to a specific human being in history and (b) that person was divine. Two extraordinary claims requiring extraordinary evidence. Next:
The shroud can’t be duplicated in its entirety even with today’s technologies, let alone from the Middle Ages.
This needs to be teased out, but why is that so surprising? There's much about the ancient world we don't know and/or understand. They had technologies and sciences. We moderns tend to forget that before us was not ages upon ages of darkness and ignorance. More:
The historic evidence shows it to be much older.
Any historic evidence beyond the three items at the top? Otherwise, it feels like the punch-line is missing. Then:
Remember also if a shroud like this was found by the Pharisees and Romans during the first 300 years of Christianity we wouldn’t even be discussing the shroud here because it would have been destroyed.
Speculative, and so what? Next:
If you new anything about the sudarium or the mandylion you would know that they were always being moved ahead of invading armies through the early centuries. My guess is that you know diddly-squat about all this.
True. I know diddly-squat. So, since the burden of proof belongs to you, you'd need to explain the terms and how they relate at all to the subject.
I’ve already talked about the raking techniques used by the physicist professor Jackson that show the strong evidence of the shroud and mandylion being the same relic. You conveniently swept away this part of my post and went back to the middle age garbage theory which so far you have given no evidence for.
OK, sorry. What's the point of the raking, then? Please feel free to elucidate. Now, you are boasting
Lars, please while you behind, because ill walk circles around you in this subject.
I'm sure you will "walk circles" around me. I'm already dizzy!
I only recently found out about the shroud in 2009 because all the commotion atheists made when they thought someone successfully duplicated the shroud,and when this was proven wrong all of them went silent all of a sudden. It was their loudmouths that got the shroud on my radar to begin with. I guess God saw fit to use their ignorance for good ;)
When you first learned about the shroud, how did you keep an objective stance toward it? Was there one piece of specific evidence that convinced you it was authentic, or one that stood above the rest?
You Claimed the prevailing theory is that it’s a middle age frauds. Instead of shying away from that claim, please show us the evidence that made you believe.
I claimed this as my understanding. But my understanding is of the shoddy work done in that the 2011 study that claimed something like an electromagnetic energy behind the image on the shroud. I also understood that a church historian reported that there were about 40 burial cloths in circulation in the medieval Christian world (Turkey, if I recall). Lombatti is the name of the scholar, I think.
Ohhhh please show it to me so I can have a really fun day.
Oh, please. Settle down. Finally:
I showed u my evidences for why it’s much older and in fact most if not all shroud researchers agree with me on this. Balls in your court.
Sorry, but you have not yet said anything that really stands out to me as compelling. The first three bits are the most compelling, but the arguments would have to be fleshed out a bit more. A three-way herringbone weave does not a holy relic make.
Mark antonacci tried to deconvert his Christian girlfriend the same way, starting with the shroud, 20 years later not only did he fail to deconvert her, but he converted to Christianity himself.
I'm married to a Christian and have three kids. I don't know your friend Mark.
If all the good evidence I presented to you is wrong then it should be very easy for u to debunk it. My guess is your gonna ignore it and call us crazy. This is how the vaunted intellect ofthe atheist works? Waiting eagerly :) Can’t wait to see you in church right next to me one day
Again, sorry, but the evidence you have given isn't so good. I understand you can't go into every detail, but I'd really need a lot more than what you have here. Besides, I'm from a Jewish background. I could never, ever be a Christian. There's no point. If I were to be convinced of any theism, it might be deism or back to Judaism.LarTanner
January 15, 2013
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LT states: "Surely there are other shrouds from the same time and place that can be used help establish the specific authenticity of the Turin one." Yep, there is: Shroud Of Turin – Sewn From Two Pieces – 2000 Years Old – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4109101bornagain77
January 15, 2013
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JWT, I noticed you stealthly avoided trying to say the Shroud was a fake again, what's a matter? don't you want to back up your dogmatic atheistic compadre LT? Strange company you are keeping LT to defend your supposedly theistic beliefs! Of note: The Sadducees, who like you did not believe in life after death, tried to trap Jesus with a trick question. His answer to them was brilliant. To see the full context of the situation, watch this video starting around the 18 minute mark to see how far out of line you are with what Jesus' actually taught about life after death: Love God with All Your Mind (JP Moreland) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xrqHtV5t_8&feature=player_detailpage#t=961sbornagain77
January 15, 2013
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Hi bornagain77 and wallstreeter43, Thanks for the new links and information on the Shroud of Turin. I'll check them out.vjtorley
January 15, 2013
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wallstreeter43 - good posts. Indeed I am aware of the Eucharistic miracles. The evidence for the shroud is very compelling. Did you catch this one on the shroud? Divine Mercy and Shroud of Turin Here we have the description of an image an uneducated Polish peasant girl saw of Jesus then painted by an artist, superimposed on the shroud.buffalo
January 15, 2013
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Actually, the shroud is 3 way herringbone weave, which prevalent in Jesus' time not prevalent in the Middle Ages . As I said before the evidence points to its authenticity and not for it being from the Middle Ages . The pollens found on it point to it being in the Jerusalem region and the pollens found from the region are of plants that only bloomed in Jerusalem in the summer time. Rare microscopic limestone was found on the shroud that only is found in the to,bs of Jerusalem . To Truely understand the shroud you would really need to delve into all of these evidences to understand their significance for authenticity. Your claim that if we couldn't get an accurate c14 reading on the shroud makes it a forgery is the thing that is Truely crazy. The first unofficial c14 dating placed it at 200 ad. The 88 testing broke 13 protocols that by themselves invalidated the testing itself. They didn't even do a chemical analysis testing to make sure the sample was indicative of the rest of the shroud (something Rogers corrected for them later). The secular people in charge of the testing got the sturp team taken out, and also ignored their recommendations to have a chemical analysis test done on it. And anyone in archeology and the related sciences will tell u that you can't determine the age of a relic from one piece of evidence. It must be an eclectic approach. Archeologists had ancient Egyptian relics found that c14 tests show to be from 1000 ad but every other piece of evidence shows it to be thousands of years older. Your comment is one from a person that is trying to sweep all of the evidence for authenticity under the rug, to try to muddy the waters a bit. This is a person in denial. The shroud can't be duplicated in its entirety even with today's technologies, let alone from the Middle Ages . The historic evidence shows it to be much older. Remember also if a shroud like this was found by the Pharisees and Romans during the first 300 years of Christianity we wouldn't even be discussing the shroud here because it would have been destroyed. If you new anything about the sudarium or the mandylion you would know that they were always being moved ahead of invading armies through the early centuries. My guess is that you know diddly-squat about all this. I've already talked about the raking techniques used by the physicist professor Jackson that show the strong evidence of the shroud and mandylion being the same relic. You conveniently swept away this part of my post and went back to the middle age garbage theory which so far you have given no evidence for. Lars, please while you behind, because ill walk circles around you in this subject. I only recently found out about the shroud in 2009 because all the commotion atheists made when they thought someone successfully duplicated the shroud,and when this was proven wrong all of them went silent all of a sudden. It was their loudmouths that got the shroud on my radar to begin with. I guess God saw fit to use their ignorance for good ;) You Claimed the prevailing theory is that it's a middle age frauds. Instead of shying away from that claim, please show us the evidence that made you believe. Ohhhh please show it to me so I can have a really fun day. I showed u my evidences for why it's much older and in fact most if not all shroud researchers agree with me on this. Balls in your court. Mark antonacci tried to deconvert his Christian girlfriend the same way, starting with the shroud, 20 years later not only did he fail to deconvert her, but he converted to Christianity himself . If all the good evidence I presented to you is wrong then it should be very easy for u to debunk it. My guess is your gonna ignore it and call us crazy. This is how the vaunted intellect ofthe atheist works? Waiting eagerly :) Can't wait to see you in church right next to me one day God blesswallstreeter43
January 15, 2013
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@bornagain77 Am I correct to assume that you are a trinitarian? In case you're a trinitarian: Do you think that someone could be a Christian without having a belief in the so called trinity? Apropos "bedfellow": Of similar interest: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McFarlane_v_Relate_Avon_Ltd @your posting 33 God will reestablish paradise here on earth:
Jesus promised a dying man who courageously expressed faith in him: “You will be with me in Paradise.” (Luke 23:43) Where would the man be? Would Paradise be located in heaven, on earth, or at some intermediate location where humans await judgment? Our ancestors once lived in Paradise. The Bible tells us: “Jehovah God planted a garden in Eden, toward the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed. . . . And Jehovah God proceeded to take the man and settle him in the garden of Eden to cultivate it and to take care of it.” (Genesis 2:8, 15) When those words were translated into Greek, the word “garden” was rendered pa·ra?dei·sos, from which came the English word “paradise.” Just as a couple would enlarge their home when they have more children, so our first parents were expected to expand Paradise beyond the borders of Eden as the human family grew. God told them: “Fill the earth and subdue it.”—Genesis 1:28. Our Creator’s purpose, then, was for humans to live and bear children in Paradise here on earth. They would live forever in an earthly garden with no need for any cemeteries. The earth was to become the permanent home for all mankind. No wonder the natural features of our planet bring us so much delight! We were created to live on a beautiful earth. Has God’s purpose changed? No. For Jehovah assures us: “So my word that goes forth from my mouth will prove to be. It will not return to me without results, but it will certainly do that in which I have delighted.” (Isaiah 55:11) Over 3,000 years after man’s creation, the Bible stated regarding “the Former of the earth and the Maker of it” that he “did not create it simply for nothing,” but he “formed it even to be inhabited.” (Isaiah 45:18) God’s will has not changed. The earth will yet be a paradise. Interestingly, many Bible passages about Paradise are simply descriptions of life on earth. For example, a prophecy of Isaiah states: “They will certainly build houses and have occupancy; and they will certainly plant vineyards and eat their fruitage.” (Isaiah 65:21) Where are houses built and vineyards planted? Where is fruit eaten? On the earth. Proverbs 2:21 explicitly states: “The upright are the ones that will reside in the earth.” Jesus too spoke about an earthly paradise. True, he also promised a heavenly paradise, but that was for a select few. (Luke 12:32) After death, these are resurrected to the heavenly Paradise and join Christ to rule over the earthly Paradise. (Revelation 5:10; 14:1-3) These heavenly corulers will ensure that Paradise on earth will be properly governed and maintained according to God’s standards. Jesus knew that this was God’s will for the earth. After all, he was in heaven with his Father when the garden of Eden was created. Life in a future earthly paradise is open to all people who exercise faith today. (John 3:16) To such ones, Jesus promises: “You will be with me in Paradise.”—Luke 23:43.
JWTruthInLove
January 15, 2013
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You folks are insane. Look, all you need to tell me is that the shroud fabric is dated reliably to the time and place where Jesus was buried. Is that what your sources say? Is that the general consensus? I'd imagine there's lots of cultural data on how Jews were shrouded and buried in common-era Palestine that would be helpful here. Tell me about that. Surely there are other shrouds from the same time and place that can be used help establish the specific authenticity of the Turin one. As for the image itself, well I don't know what it tells us. Apparently it's the image of some guy. Okay. So what? I have no truck with Nickell or anyone else. He makes an argument that the 2011 study is shoddy science. Is it really shoddy science? Maybe not. I don't care. The next studies that duplicate the 2011 one will help validate it or not. I read a bit of the Rogers stuff. He made no supernatural claims. He criticized the methods used in dating the Shroud back in 1988. Good job. Just what he was supposed to do. I just don't see how anything about the shroud amounts to a hill of beans. Sorry to have incurred your wrath. I just thought it was funny to have BA of all people jumping up and down about bias. No offense, BA. I think you do a lot of great research and you're certainly passionate about your beliefs and anti-atheism, but unbiased you are not.LarTanner
January 15, 2013
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As to a viable mechanism being in place to make a image on a Shroud, I hold that we now have evidence for such a plausible mechanism: First to recap what is facing us about the nature of the image:
Scientists say Turin Shroud is supernatural - December 2011 Excerpt: After years of work trying to replicate the colouring on the shroud, a similar image has been created by the scientists. However, they only managed the effect by scorching equivalent linen material with high-intensity ultra violet lasers, undermining the arguments of other research, they say, which claims the Turin Shroud is a medieval hoax. Such technology, say researchers from the National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Economic Development (Enea), was far beyond the capability of medieval forgers, whom most experts have credited with making the famous relic. "The results show that a short and intense burst of UV directional radiation can colour a linen cloth so as to reproduce many of the peculiar characteristics of the body image on the Shroud of Turin," they said. And in case there was any doubt about the preternatural degree of energy needed to make such distinct marks, the Enea report spells it out: "This degree of power cannot be reproduced by any normal UV source built to date." http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-shroud-is-supernatural-6279512.html
Now as to a viable mechanism being in place:
Cellular Communication through Light Excerpt: Information transfer is a life principle. On a cellular level we generally assume that molecules are carriers of information, yet there is evidence for non-molecular information transfer due to endogenous coherent light. This light is ultra-weak, is emitted by many organisms, including humans and is conventionally described as biophoton emission. http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0005086 Biophotons - The Light In Our Cells - Marco Bischof - March 2005 Excerpt page 2: The Coherence of Biophotons: ,,, Biophotons consist of light with a high degree of order, in other words, biological laser light. Such light is very quiet and shows an extremely stable intensity, without the fluctuations normally observed in light. Because of their stable field strength, its waves can superimpose, and by virtue of this, interference effects become possible that do not occur in ordinary light. Because of the high degree of order, the biological laser light is able to generate and keep order and to transmit information in the organism. http://www.international-light-association.eu/PDF/Biophotons.pdf Are humans really beings of light? Excerpt: "We now know, today, that man is essentially a being of light.",,, "There are about 100,000 chemical reactions happening in every cell each second. The chemical reaction can only happen if the molecule which is reacting is excited by a photon... Once the photon has excited a reaction it returns to the field and is available for more reactions... We are swimming in an ocean of light." http://viewzone2.com/dna.html The mechanism and properties of bio-photon emission and absorption in protein molecules in living systems - May 2012 Excerpt: From the energy spectra, it was determined that the protein molecules could both radiate and absorb bio-photons with wavelengths of less than 3??m and 5–7??m, consistent with the energy level transitions of the excitons.,,, http://jap.aip.org/resource/1/japiau/v111/i9/p093519_s1?isAuthorized=no
Moreover, to add weight to the plausibility, proteins are now found to conduct electricity far better than manmade conductors do,,,
Proteins Conduct Electricity - November 25, 2012 Excerpt: "The team showed that the protein could carry large currents, equivalent to a human hair carrying one amp. The team also discovered that current flow could be regulated in much the same way as transistors, the tiny devices driving computers and smartphones, work but on a smaller scale: the proteins are only a quarter of the size of current silicon based transistors." The finding represents a leap forward in measurement at the nano scale. “Prior to this work, measurement of millions, if not billions of proteins was only possible, so losing crucial details of how an individual molecule functions.” The team used scanning tunneling microscopy (STM) to read the electronics of a single molecule of cytochrome b562, a protein just 5 nanometers (billions of a meter) long. http://crev.info/2012/11/proteins-conduct-electricity/
Of note: AWG 44 wire is the wire size that is equivalent to the width of a human hair,,
Measurements and Gauge Excerpt: An AWG # 44 wire is about the thickness of a human hair. http://unimaxsupply.com/prc/pinstruct/measurements.htm
And AWG 44 wire is rated at well below the .014 Ampacity, the last Ampacity they have listed, for AWG 40 wire,,,
AWG Wire Table, AWG Copper Wire Gauge Chart http://www.interfacebus.com/Copper_Wire_AWG_SIze.html
Thus, since 1 divided by .010 is 100, the ampacity (current carrying capacity) for the protein they measured is at least 100 times better than a copper or silver wire would be compared at the size of a human hair. Also of note: The best manmade (intelligently designed) conductor of electricity beats copper and silver by only 30 to 50 times:
Graphene: How It Will Change the Future - Apr 12, 2012 Excerpt: Copper is a great conductor of electricity and heat. Only silver beats copper (by less than 10%). That is why we use copper wires to transmit electricity and data, and copper pots are prized by cooks. Graphene conducts heat and electricity 30-50 times better than copper and silver: electrons flowing in graphene travel near the speed of light. http://finchin.com/graphene-in-plain-english/
bornagain77
January 15, 2013
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Lars again, it's amazing that you keep making the same middle age claim knowing that it has been debunked a long time ago. The Hungarian pray codex debunks it The vanillin tests debunk it The folding match with the mandylion show it The perfect blood stain match of the sudarium prove it Nickell claimed to be able to make the image with powders and also a statue, he didn't even come close. You haven't addressed one of my posts, and you don't care to research them because you fear they will cause you stress about your worldview. Why are you constently arguing from a point of ignorance. If I'm ignorant about something I either will get up to par on it,or I won't post. The scientific community would laugh if you brought them a non science expert like nickell or someone like Mccrone who can't get a paper to pass through peer review. It's amazing how far atheists will go to cling to their worldview, even abandon their precious science to do it. Lars my advice for u is to quite whole your behind and go to subject that you have some knowledge about.wallstreeter43
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Lars, haaahahaha, you have nothing invested in the shroud yet you claim that the medieval theory is the leading one so far lol. Inthink my posts already show that you haven't done your homework and all of the evidence is against it being a medieval forgers and is in fact on the side of authenticity. Your post has shown that you do have a lot invested in it , 1 because you haven't done any research at all, and 2. You haven't given a response to any of the Posts I have provided, especially the evidence that comes from peer reviewed research. When it comes to the shroud atheists suddenly become allergic to peer reviewed science,and from your posts, to objectivity as well. Oh and by the way Ray Rogers is an agnostic so he was actually against the shrouds authenticity and accepted the c14 tests, until this lady named Sue Benford , who claimed that Jesus spoke to her Ina vision about this, and she wrote to Rogers telling him that she believed that the C14 piece was from a reweaving. Rogers as a scientist who stated publicly that he is a man of science that doesn't believe in the supernatural, considered Benford to be from what he called the anti science lunatic fringe. He said he still has some samples from the area, and could disprove her in 5 minutes. What he found shocked him. He found that sue Benford was absolutely right, which led to his peer reviewed research in thermochimica acta. Even though Rogers is an agnostic who doesn't believe in miracles, he still was objective enough to follow the evidence to where it took him. This really shook him up. Lars your still a youngster on this subject. If you want to at least appear to know what your talking about I would suggest first to start researching the over 300 peer reviewed papers on the shroud from shroud.com. Almost all of the peer review literature lean towards authenticity, and the few that believe that it is a middle age forgery are considered in the same league as the flat earth society. Good luck on ur research , but if you don't want to research it, I can understand as being wrong about your worldview is an uncomfortable thing, but for the life of me I could never understand why someone would comfortably cling to a worldview that has no hope, no love, no meaning and no purpose if they were presented with evidence that shows there is meaning, hope and purpose. Ah well, to each their own. You can lead a horse to water... Errr, well you know the rest Viva joe nickell , the guy with not even a 2 year science degree bravooooooo!!!!!!wallstreeter43
January 15, 2013
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"Medieval artistry also seems to remain the leading candidate for plausible explanation." No it is not, do your research as Wallstreeter suggested!bornagain77
January 15, 2013
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Wallstreet, OK, I'll bite. How exactly does it correspond "perfectly with the passion and crucifixion of Christ"? I'm sorry, but I'm not going to research the thing because I really don't care. Nickell questioned the research methods of the study. Seemed like he brought up some fair points. I haven't read the rebuttal of the researchers, nor have I read the results of studies that have duplicated the 2011 tests. As far as I know, it remains true that no one knows how the image on the shroud got there. Medieval artistry also seems to remain the leading candidate for plausible explanation.LarTanner
January 15, 2013
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"Well, I would say I’m more neutral than you, BA." That statement coming from a dogmatic neo-Darwinist like you, who remains so in spite of the overwhelming evidence coming forth to the contrary is a laugh :) , You are literally a poster child for atheistic bias! As to your snide reference from a atheist website that stated: “and then a miracle occurs!” Excuse me LT, a MIRACLE is precisely what is claimed to have happened if you hadn't noticed! Moreover, two can play at that game: Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness - Talbott - Fall 2011 Excerpt: The situation calls to mind a widely circulated cartoon by Sidney Harris, which shows two scientists in front of a blackboard on which a body of theory has been traced out with the usual tangle of symbols, arrows, equations, and so on. But there’s a gap in the reasoning at one point, filled by the words, “Then a miracle occurs.” And the one scientist is saying to the other, “I think you should be more explicit here in step two.” In the case of evolution, I picture Dennett and Dawkins filling the blackboard with their vivid descriptions of living, highly regulated, coordinated, integrated, and intensely meaningful biological processes, and then inserting a small, mysterious gap in the middle, along with the words, “Here something random occurs.” This “something random” looks every bit as wishful as the appeal to a miracle. It is the central miracle in a gospel of meaninglessness, a “Randomness of the gaps,” demanding an extraordinarily blind faith. At the very least, we have a right to ask, “Can you be a little more explicit here?” http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/evolution-and-the-illusion-of-randomnessbornagain77
January 15, 2013
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Lars, I never needed the shroud for my faith. The conclusion I came to were based on my research into the history of the shroud, as well as the peer reviewed scientific literature. I can see that your committing the same folly that every atheist has committed when it comes to the shroud. You have abandoned science, logic and reason because the evidence makes you feel uncomfortable. If you have nothing invested in the shroud then why did you bring up Joe Nickells claims. I wasn't joking when I said I have researched the shroud for 4 years and one of the sites I went to was ciscops (joe nickells site). Now before we go any further my non scientific atheist friend, please share this with everyone here. If you can even show me what 2 year degree in any scientific area that Joe nickell has then maybe you might have someone with a little bit of legitimacy on your side . Nickell was arguing chemistry with Ray Rogers and he got schooled. Nickell is nothing but a pseudo skeptic masquerading as a scientist. He's even worse than Mccrone lol. If you like getting your info from non peer reviewed sources than what can I say, except for I TOLD YOU GUYS. Next time Lars, do yourself some justice by researching the peer reviewed literature instead of a quick 30 second googling with skeptic keywords inserted, but if your comfortable with your atheism, stay away from the shroud, STAY FAR AWAY. Or you can use another common atheist response , you can call it a magical, dirty old rag and laugh away the evidence. The fact is the shroud corresponds perfectly with the passion and crucifixion of Christ.wallstreeter43
January 15, 2013
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Ipad typo, I meant to say lartanner, for some reason my ipadmini keeps trying to spell things on its own. My apologieswallstreeter43
January 15, 2013
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