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Why I am not a young Earth creationist (YEC)

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From O’Leary: Recently, I promised I’d say a bit about that, and a bit is all I am going to say.

It is much more difficult to explain why you are not something than why you are something.

Usually, a person is not something because of an infinite array of counterfactuals. But what the person is,  is factuals, which are often quite easy to explain. (= I know that town because I grew up there. I got a scholarship for the X program, not another one. I moved to the city to find a job. I went to the Billy Graham Crusade. Etc.)

So, a little background: I grew up in communities where most people held contradictory views of the history of life. That is, they believed in Adam and Eve and also in The Caveman.

If this bifurcation seems counterintuitive, consider that a human being can easily espouse contradictory views on the same subject, so long as the views are not a source of conflict in himself or his community, such that he is forced to choose between them. And they weren’t, with us.

In public schools in the 1960s, we memorized passages from the Bible and sang hymns. The mainline denomination my cradle Catholic parents had joined when I was a small child had no problem with Darwinian evolution, even for the origin of life, that I ever heard of. But we still learned about Adam and Eve from Sunday School teachers.

One town in particular was a respectable working class community where intellectuals were rare. One resident was something of a mystery to us because he taught at the university. Who knows, he might have raised a question, but no one else did. Like most Canadians, we believed in “peace, order, and good government”, and simply did not raise issues where the public welfare was not at stake. Putting Adam and Eve to a vote against The Caveman would have seemed an utterly needless contention.

It makes for a much less dynamic society than the U.S., compensated for by a much lower rate of crime and violence.

I only had occasion to become aware of YEC in the 2000’s, while indexing books written by authors of that persuasion for a religious publishing house. Now, an indexer skim reads (to avoid starvation) but I gathered that these authors thought the authority of Scripture as divine revelation was the principle issue at stake. If the first few verses of Genesis were not to be understood literally, the whole edifice would fall apart.

Later, I learned more about YEC. For example, the role of water engineer Henry Morris in creating its theoretical basis after World War II. Indeed, I ended up writing several chapters of By Design or by Chance? on young Earth creationism. These chapters were aimed at people who, like me, were neither foes nor fans, but wanted to know why people they respected were concerned enough to espouse it. At any rate, what was clear to me was that the need for YEC, quite apart from evidence for it, depends on taking a specific view about how Scripture is to be read, a view I didn’t happen to take.

The evidence may be good; I am no judge of that. I use NASA’s dating because it is widely accepted and comprehensible. I can (and have) written a “stasis” chart, listing life forms I have heard about that are unchanged over vast periods of time and through many ecological developments. The chart uses NASA’s dating. But many science-based estimates of Earth’s age have been offered over the decades. And for all I know, NASA will one day announce that Earth is really only 100 million years old or maybe 10 billion, and I must then recalibrate it all, based on what they say afterward.

By now, you may get at least some sense of why ID supporters generally don’t fight among ourselves about the matter. Why bother? We are united by the perception that Darwinism and its offspring are just one of many current melds between science and crackpot metaphysics (one could add multiverses, “evolutionary” psychology, and “the mind is just the brain buzzing” neuroscience to the list). Darwinism happens to be the meld that we, as a community, know the most about.

For example, if you wanted to know more about what’s wrong with “the mind is just the brain buzzing” neuroscience, you would do better to talk to “mindfulness” neuroscientists than us. There is overlap, of course. I myself am co-author of The Spiritual Brain. But they are a whole separate group engaged with that issue.

Incidentally, it certainly doesn’t help Darwinism’s reputation to be infested by atheist trolls who broadcast their anti-religious opinions in foul language, then hypocritically obsess about other people’s religious commitments, generally uglifying public debate.

One can’t help but ask, what kind of “science” attracts such people? A range of reasonable answers to that question is quite short. And it does not make Darwinism sound like a science so much as a metaphysic for trolls.

Of course not everyone who believes in Darwinism is by any means a troll. But if you have condemned yourself to being a troll, please do be a Darwinist. Rant and curse, and try to get books suppressed—and let the rest of us get on trying to understand the true history of evolution in relation to the creation and flow of information, of which Darwin did not dream.

Now, I slowly made my way back to the Catholic Church, and am a Catholic in communion with the Church. Traditional Catholics have a very high view of Scripture, as will be evident to anyone who pays attention at Mass.

But we tend to interpret Scripture on many levels (literal, mystical, allegorical, anagogical, for example, just to start).

The Church takes no official position on the age of Earth. Its position on evolution generally has been grossly misrepresented, whether intentionally or from ignorance or from—I suspect this is most common—the deception of Catholic Darwinist academics. See, for example Douglas Futuyma whose simply wrong comments may well stem from the third cause.

So, yes, a Catholic can be a YEC in good faith, and some are. Most are not. The Catholic approach to Scripture does not drive us in the direction of making a formal decision in such matters.

(Believe you me: When the Church thinks she must make a formal, official decision, via an Encyclical—a letter addressed to all Catholics—she just does, and damn the torpedoes.)

So there it is. That is why I am not a YEC, and also don’t have a problem with people who are.

Comments
JGuy @ 48 Sorry, lost a post last night with some more math. Regarding the "obvious problem" I think you may have neglected that the lagging light is travelling sideways relative to the earth for the initial part of its journey, giving the leading light a small head start. I'm also not sure why you think the lagging light will be 33.3 years behind (correcting for my math error). This would only be true on the assumption the speed of light has been constantly 1c the whole time, wheras we've assumed it starts off at 100c and decelerates to 1c, as per your suggested scenario. Without doing all that math again, surely it is obvious that if you propose light was faster in the past, that must make the circumstellar ring around SN1987A much bigger. The reason is that its angular size and the time taken to traverse the ring were observed and measured, so the only variables that can change are the size of the ring, and thus its distance from the earth so we can hold the angular size constant. And I don't believe your idea works that the time delta to traverse the ring at the supernova might be different from the time delta measured at the earth. This is because we have assumed light speed = 100c at the time of the explosion, so if you think it took more or less time to traverse the ring than 0.66 years what you're really saying is the ring must be either larger or smaller, which yet again means the ring must be further away/closer to the earth to keep the angular size the same. Even if you're correct about the time delta this doesn't solve the age problem for YEC. All this of course is neglecting huge amounts of other evidence that light speed has remained constant at 1c for at least millions of years on both theoretical and evidential grounds. For example, if light was faster in the past we would see a "slow motion" effect where periodic phenomena like galactic rotation would appear to be slower at greater distances; such an effect is not observed. If I can work up the courage I may tackle the maths again to address your concerns, but note the discrepancy you've pointed out is 30-odd years over 160,000-odd years or < 0.01%. CheersCLAVDIVS
July 3, 2013
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Earth to CLAVDIVS:
This paper is not merely a defence of my book. I have taken the opportunity to clarify and develop my theory a few steps further, opening up new and spectacular vistas of the space-time God created.- Humphreys in "New Vistas"
Joe said: One is an extension of the other.Joe
July 3, 2013
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Romans 3:4 "God forbid! Let God be true and man are liar" Have you ever study more deeply the sin committed in the Garden of Eden. That, the SERPENT that deceived Eve was an upright creture, the only beast that could talk and communicate with Adam? And, that, he started to crawl like a snake after he was cursed by God! Why was the female sexual organ cursed by God that her SORROW and. CONCEPTION were greatly multiplied?(Genesis 3:16) Have you ever wondered why the sexual organ was covered (Genesis3:11)and cursed rather than the mouth if it was indeed the mouth which was involved in the act of sin? To "eat" in Proverb 30:20 means sexual intercourse. There was a serpent seed. The SERPENT is the missing link, to explain why humans and primates have almost Identical DNA. Not the primate to evolve to become human. 2Corinthians12:1-3 "I wish you would bear with me in a little foolishness. Do bear with me. For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to ONE HUSBAND, to present you as a CHASTE VIRGIN to Christ. But I am afraid that as the SERPENT deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ." Eve was an adulter. She conceived and give birth to Cain, the serpent seed , 1John3:13 "..who was of the evil one."aying2013
July 3, 2013
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There must be a reason why we can read two different Garden of Eden in the Bible, one was covered with stones (Ezek 28:13) and the other one was covered with trees, plants, and vegetations (during Adam and Eve) In Genesis1:1, we read the word "create" , in 2Peter3:5b we read the word "form," -"the earth was formed out of water and through water." Here, Apostle Paul was talking about the cleansing of the earth, the last would be fire, but if you will study it closely, the first was by "ice" In Ezek 28:, it tells that the "annointed guardian cherub" was filled with violence"(Science were puzzled why became instinct so suddenly. Archaeologists even found fossils of dinosaurs in mortal combat, two were in the act biting each other before they died suddenly.) This could be the reason why the earth then was cleansed by ice- resulted to Ice Age, as science said there is. Genesis1:2 was the form of the earth during the ice. Genesis1:3, God restored the light (when there is light, "heat" heat is being generated) The heat being generated started to melt the "ice", hence Genesis 1:6 "let it separate the waters from the (solid) waters."Genesis1:9 ".......and let the dry land appear." God restored the 24/7 day night in Genesis1:14., the purpose? to restore the water cycle and have the correct atmosphere for life to exist again. In Genesis 1:28 (KJV) Adam and Eve were instructed by God "Be fruitful and multiply and REPLENISH the earth.(It means there was life before and were been wiped out. Yes the earth is old. I believe Science is the fulfillment of Daniel12:4 "knowledge shall increase at the end time". God permit Science to help us know the remaining mystery of the Bible and not to refute the WORD.aying2013
July 3, 2013
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CLAVDIVS:
Pick one of Humphreys’ models that you think is workable, because one is a contraction (not expansion) of the other and different criticisms apply.
Both are wokable- choose either one you want. However it is a given that you will never support materialism- it doesn't even have a model...Joe
July 3, 2013
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Clavdivs @ 46 Thanks. The math was compelling. And I can't see where/if it is wrong yet. And... ...you almost had me leaning more towards Humphreys cosmology. But I ran across one, somewhat obvious, problem in the end result. Though I can't see yet how it is coming into the math. The anti-tadah moment: We agree that the speed of light (c) would always be universally the same, regardless of whether it was 100c or any multiple of c decreasing to present c. In the above calculation, you determine that the ring is 36.6LY large (that is a distance measured as the present time c/year). And since the leading light and lagging light will always be at the same speeds, the distance between them will always remain constant. That is, the distance is constant regardless of changes in c. The packets of light from the explosion will always be 36.6LY distance ahead of the packets of light from the ring. Therefore, when the explosion occurred, the light from the ring would not arrived to earth until at earliest the year 2023 (i.e. 36.6 years or later). Since the ring light arrived 0.67 years later, then this math has a fundamental problem. Granted, I don't see where it is yet. It's late, so maybe I'll look closer tomorrow.JGuy
July 3, 2013
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JGuy - D'oh! I made a mistake in the calcs. Fiddling around with CODE tags was distracting. Fortunately it doesn't affect the overall result. Where I calculated d1 = 55.5 x T1, it should actually be 50.5 x T1. Everywhere therafter where you see 55.5 it should be 50.5. This would make the radius of the circumstellar ring 33.3 light years. Therefore the final distance d1 should be 33.3/TAN(0.83") = 8,282,899 light years, and the light travel time T1 should be 164,017 years.CLAVDIVS
July 3, 2013
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JGuy @ 44 Thanks for the response. I understand your point about arrival time of light beams at the earth not necessarily being the same as the "true delta" at the supernova. Fortunately the calculations are relatively simple to show how this does not rescue the YEC concept. I grant you they're not simple trigonometry; rather, they're the simple equations of motion. Here's what we know from direct observation: - Light from the explosion travelled to the earth covering a distance of d1 with a travel time of T1. - Light travelled a longer distance d2 from the explosion to the ring, then to the earth, with a travel time of T2 which equals T1 + 0.66 years. - The angular size of the ring is 1.66" - The speed of the light when it reached the earth = 1c. At this point we don't assume we know the starting speed of light, the distances d1 or d2 or the travel times T1 or T2. Okay? Now, let's assume your scenario that the velocity of light has decreased from, say, v1 = 100c when the supernova exploded down to v2 = 1c when the light beams arrived at earth i.e. light has had negative acceleration a which applies to all light beams throughout the scenario. Note: In all the calcs below time is in years, velocity is in light-years-per-year and acceleration in light-years-per-year-per-year. The formula for acceleration is: a = (v2 - v1) / T Where T is the travel time. We know v1 = 100c and v2 = 1c but we don't know either T1 or T2, so we can't calculate a. Nevertheless we can reduce (1) as follows: a = (v2 - v1) / T : a = (1 - 100) / T : a = (-99/T) ...... (1) The formula for distance travelled d is: d = v1 x T + 1/2 a x T^2 So now we go to work on d1: d1 = v1 x T1 + 1/2 a x T1^2 d1 = 100 x T1 + 1/2 a x T1^2 ...... {v1=100c} d1 = 100 x T1 + 1/2 (-99/T1) x T1^2 ...... {a=(-99/T) from (1)} d1 = 100 x T1 - 49.5 / T1 x T1^2 d1 = 100 x T1 - 49.5 x T1 d1 = 55.5 x T1 ...... (2) Now for d2: d2 = 55.5 x T2 ...... {same calc as (2) only using T2} d2 = 55.5 x (T1 + 0.66) ...... {T2=T1+0.66} d2 = 55.5 x T1 + (55.5 x 0.66) ...... {expansion} d2 = 55.5 x T1 + 36.6 ...... (3) And now the "tadah" moment: d1 = 55.5 x T1 ...... {from (2)} d2 = 55.5 x T1 + 36.6 ...... {from (3)} :: d2 = d1 + 36.6 Therefore, assuming light decelerated from 100c to 1c as per your scenario, we can prove the light beam that went via the ring, and arrived at earth 0.66 years later, travelled an extra 36.6 light years -- in other words, the radius of the ring in our scenario is 36.6 light years. Now, an object 36.6 light years in size with an angular size of 0.83" must be 36.6/TAN(0.83") = 9,095,532 light years away. So now we know the distance we're finally in a position to calculate the time travel time T1: d1 = 55.5 x T1 ......{from (2)} 9,095,532 = 55.5 x T1 ...... {substitute the distance} T1 = 9,095,532 / 55.5 T1 = 163883 years What a wonder, we're back where we started! Needless to say this is no help to the YEC position at all. Try it yourself - you can plug in any starting value for the speed of light that you like! CheersCLAVDIVS
July 3, 2013
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I am a Bible believer. Only the scripture can interprets scripture. I do not believe 10,000 years or less as the age of the earth. I am for Old Earth Creationism but not on evolution. Both YEC and Evolutionists had created problems in our educational system. I believe SCIENCE is the fulfillment of Daniel 12:4 "Knowledge shall increase at the end time." God permits SCIENCE for us to clearly understand the Bible and not to refute His WORD. Here is what we believe about GENESIS 1; THE AGE OF THE EARTH The reason why SOME PEOPLE DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE is because of unreconciled age of the Earth. The theologians say, it is only about twelve thousand years old. The geophysicists, the geochemists and the archaeologists conclude with scientific facts that the Earth is about 4.5 plus/minus 0.05% billion years old. There are some indicators in the Bible that could lead us to believe that the earth is not just thousands of years of age but even billions of years as the geophysicists believe. Prayerfully, consider the following: Ezekiel 28:13 “You were in Eden, the garden of God, every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz and diamonds, beryl, onyx and jasper, sapphire, carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your setting and your engravings on the day you were created they were prepared.” V14 “You were anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God, …” (The guardian cherub mentioned was Lucifer, Isa14:12, that became Satan.) Take note: The first Eden, the garden of God was covered with stones while the garden of Eden during Adam and Eve was covered with trees, plants and vegetations. As claimed by the scientists, we could believe that there was such a period called STONE AGE about 3.4 million years ago. Archaeologists have discovered thousands of fossils, evidences that there was life during this period. In their ancient groups of fossils were listed the dinosaurs, trilobites and fossils of humanoids dating about one to six million years of age. Some of these fossils can be found in the Smithsonian Institute. There were even hundreds of fossils of dinosaurs found in the act of mortal combat; two were found somewhat (frozen) on the act of biting each other before they suddenly died. The fighting of animals can be pointed to Satan. Ezekiel 28:16 says “In the abundance of your trade you were filled with VIOLENCE in your midst…” The violence created by Satan could have prompted God to cleanse the earth. Apostle Peter had a revelation, that the earth had undergone cleansings; thru ice, water and will undergo cleansing by fire. Read 2 Peter 3:1-7 and pray for its revelation. Genesis 1:2 “The earth was without form and void; and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the FACE OF THE WATER.” It means that the land was fully covered with (solid) WATER. This was the condition of the earth before it was formed again. The earth was covered with ice- hence science claimed there was an ice age. 2Peter 3:5b “…and the earth was formed out of water and through water by word of God.” How? Genesis1:3 “And God said, ‘Let there be light,’ and there was light.” The light was restored! When light is generated it compasses HEAT. The heat melts the ice. Genesis1:6 “..and let it separate the waters from the waters.” The liquid water because of heat melted away from the solid water. Genesis1:10 “And God said, ‘Let the water under the heaven be gathered together into one place, and let the DRY LAND APPEAR.” “And it was so.” I believe as others do that there is a big gap between Genesis1:1 and Genesis1:2. In Genesis 1:1, God created the universe, the galaxies, the stars, planets, and then placed life on earth during the STONE AGE. The first cleansing of the earth resulted to ICE AGE . Then, Genesis1:2 happened- the formation of earth and the creation of a new life on earth for human and animals and trees to live again. In Genesis 1:28 God said to Adam and Eve “Be fruitful and multiply, and REPLENISH the earth…” The word replenish means to fill up again. This means that there was life before (that’s the stone age) and another life will fill the earth again (the present age). Science claims that humans and the neanderthals have about 99.5% identical DNA. Please also note that the SERPENT that deceived Eve was an erect mammal before he was cursed by God to be like snake that crawl on its belly. If you read closely, the serpent crawled only after the curse Gen. 3:14. What was the act of deception- not eating literal fruit but sexual intercourse with Eve that produced Cain and Abel became his twin after Adam had sex also with Eve. Note in the scriptures the word eat in Prov. 30:20 refers to adultery. In 1John3:12, it says "CAIN is of the evil one," he was sired by the SERPENT. The Serpent is the missing link. After 7 generations, the descendants of Cain and Seth intermingled producing fleshly people, it is because the Spirit of God ceased to abide with man, Genesis 6:3. For further clarity about this revelation, please go to You Tube and look for the “Original Sin” by Richard Gan from Singapore. You just have uncovered two of the mysteries in the bible and hope that this solidifies your stand that the bible is true scientifically.aying2013
July 3, 2013
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Clavdivs. To be clear, when I wrote: "Yes, the 0.67 year lag may have been observed on earth. But revisit comment #41 to see why this would not be the actual lag time if c decreased steadily." It may have been more clear if typed this: "Yes, the 0.67 year lag may have been observed on earth. But revisit comment #41 to see why this would not be the actual lag time (i.e. the true delta time from the explosion event to the time the event of the light energy illuminated/ionized the ring) if c decreased steadily."JGuy
July 2, 2013
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Clavdivs@43 Think more about it.
Let’s assume, just for simplicity, that c was 100 times faster at the time of the supernova explosion. Nevertheless, we know the energy from the explosion still took 0.66 years to light up the ring, because that’s what we actually observed and measured. This means logically that the ring would be 100 times bigger.
Yes, the 0.67 year lag may have been observed on earth. But revisit comment #41 to see why this would not be the actual lag time if c decreased steadily.
But we also know the angular size of the ring in the sky was 1.66 seconds, because that’s what we actually observed and measured. Therefore, if the ring was a 100 times bigger, but still has that small angular size, it must be 100 times further away. This means you have to account for the light travelling 100 times further to the earth at a decreasing speed according to your scenario. Accordingly, your scenario of decreasing c actually makes the supernova explosion much older than 160,000 years!
Because 0.66 years should not be used, for the reasons explained, then what you are describing here would not follow. The only observed measurement that is so far unquestioned here - in the context of hypothetical c decay - is the angular size. And there isn't a lot you can do with that if c has continuously decreased. Apart from measured c, with only the maybe two values used, it could be the size of a doughnut (perhaps with the teapot orbiting the sun), or the size of a billion galaxies proportionately that much further away.JGuy
July 2, 2013
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JGuy @ 41 Think about your "decreasing c" scenario for a moment. Let's assume, just for simplicity, that c was 100 times faster at the time of the supernova explosion. Nevertheless, we know the energy from the explosion still took 0.66 years to light up the ring, because that's what we actually observed and measured. This means logically that the ring would be 100 times bigger. But we also know the angular size of the ring in the sky was 1.66 seconds, because that's what we actually observed and measured. Therefore, if the ring was a 100 times bigger, but still has that small angular size, it must be 100 times further away. This means you have to account for the light travelling 100 times further to the earth at a decreasing speed according to your scenario. Accordingly, your scenario of decreasing c actually makes the supernova explosion much older than 160,000 years!CLAVDIVS
July 2, 2013
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p.s. With just a little more thought on it, it wouldn't matter if we saw the initial explosion first or not. So, it does appear to solve the problem you posed.JGuy
July 2, 2013
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Clavdivs @ 25 It's not simple trig if the speed of light is continuously decaying over time. I can see how it works if you plug in any particular value for c, but not if you have, for example, an constantly decreasing c. If a steady decreasing c is the case, then when light was much faster in the past, then it didn't necessarily take .66 years for the light to reach the ring... it could have done it in, for example, a few seconds. Here's why: Let's suppose that light was a million times faster at one point and steadily decaying over time. It reaches the ring in time X. Once we see the initial explosion, we have then seen the initial explosion (just re-enforcing the point), how long from then until we see the light from the ring? Will it take time X or shorter or longer? Keep in mind, since the time of already seeing the initial explosion, light speed from the ring hasn't reached you and c would still be decaying. I don't know that this solves the overarching problem, but it does show that the time from explosion to ring does not need to be the same.JGuy
July 2, 2013
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Joe @ 39 Joe, you have avoided answering my direct request for a citation. Pick one of Humphreys' models that you think is workable, because one is a contraction (not expansion) of the other and different criticisms apply.CLAVDIVS
July 2, 2013
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One is an extension of the other.Joe
July 2, 2013
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Joe @ 36 Please cite which version of Humphreys model you are referring to as workable. Starlight & Time (1994)? New Vistas from CEN Tech J (1998)?CLAVDIVS
July 2, 2013
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What is NOT workable is any model wrt materialism...Joe
July 2, 2013
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Hi Clavdivs, Humphrey's model is workable. And as far as I can tell, it is the only one that is so.Joe
July 2, 2013
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scordova @ 32 scordova, I accept you have criticised YEC solutions to the starlight problem elsewhere. However, in my view it is irresponsible to sprinkle your comments here with what appear to be solutions to the starlight problem (c-decay @ 11, the Hartnett-Carmeli model @ 19 and the Humphreys model @ 26), without also specifying clearly that you do not believe any of them are workable. Some who are not knowledgeable about such matters may be misled into thinking that workable solutions exist for the YEC starlight problem is solved; did you consider that? And if you think these concepts are unworkable, why would you even bring them up in the first place in this context? One final question: After trying for literally decades to reconcile YEC with physical evidence, at what point would it be reasonable to conclude YEC is just wrong, and further effort pushing the concept would be wasted? Just curious.CLAVDIVS
July 2, 2013
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I'm still waiting for Salvador T. Cordova, highly ethical financial planner, to someday convert away from YECism. Will he do it in public here at UD? Denyse has stepped up to the plate, at my request. Will Salvador eventually do the same? To his credit, Salvador has come close. He acknowledges serious problems to YECism from knowledge gained in natural sciences. He doesn't 'insist on' being self-labelled as a YEC. But he likely still has some hesitation due to non-scientific committments. It is common that many YECs simply will not allow themselves the courage to reject the teachings of their local evangelical church. Such folks will not walk up to their local 'pastor' and tell him (or her) that they simply don't know what they are talking about wrt the age of the earth. Such 'pastors' are actually promoting scientific illiteracy (and even unnecessary hostility), but their biblical literalism allows this to happen on purpose, as a martyr-like privilege. BioLogos is trying to heal Christians like Salvador T. Cordova from their ideological YECism. But as an awoved IDist, Salvador likely just isn't interested in learning post-YECism from BioLogos, who he would claim, just like Denyse and timaeus and others, that they are 'compromisers' of 'classical' theology, even though IDism is said to be theologically neutral. "YEC physicists screaming at each other. Glorious!" Peons.Gregory
July 2, 2013
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Breckmin. Evangelical christians would take you on that there is no errors in the bible about anything. Possibly a dumb misprint here and there but maybe not that. The bible is clear on dates. Your still saying man knows better then god about origins since you believe the bible was created by God if I understand you. Your saying this or that is wrong. It isn't. Rejecting genesis is saying the author is wrong or lying. The author was God . YEC makes the lost logical sense if one is accepting a creator or a God even more intimate with mankind. Its about Adam and noah. How one responds to their historical presence divides the species in creationism.Robert Byers
July 2, 2013
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I took it to mean you were suggesting a solution to YEC’s problem with distant starlight. Did you mean something else?
Speculating. I didn't claim there was actually a workable solution, which I'm skeptical exists now or even in the near future. The problem is everyone needs empirical verification of ideas using space probes, better telescopes, and some serious astrometry. That's not happening anytime soon.... One priority is to establish the distance ladder as valid (it may still have problems). Next, establish Quasars might be closer than their red shift indicates. If this happens and there is anarchy in cosmology, then maybe people have reasons outside of theology to really clamor for brand new solutions. One proposed YEC solution is alternate classical electrodynamics: http://tccsa.tc/articles/lucas_universal_force.pdf When John Hartnett saw this at the 2008 YEC conference he threw a fit. Danny Faulkner joined in the shouting match while Russell Humphreys watched the spectacle. YEC physicists screaming at each other. Glorious! Jason Lisle, a physicist, the current head of the ICR said he's not convinced any YEC has solved the distant starlight problem. YECs need experiments, testable hypotheses, proposed observations -- they need to waste less on building creation museums that don't scientifically advance their case. I'll get flak for saying that. I don't care anymore.scordova
July 1, 2013
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March 8, 2012 I sketched out one of the problems with YEC: http://www.arn.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=30364058&Main=30361628#Post30364058 I posted this comment WT Bridgman's website: http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2361412992308994774&postID=4024911984847616795scordova
July 1, 2013
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scordova @ 29 Thanks for responding. Help me understand, then: What did you mean by this (@ 11)?
Alternatively, and maybe better there may be an existing mechanism for distant starlight to reach us quickly.
I took it to mean you were suggesting a solution to YEC's problem with distant starlight. Did you mean something else?CLAVDIVS
July 1, 2013
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You brought up evidence you said solves YEC’s problem with distant starlight.
Never said YEC solves problems of distant starlight, YEC has serious problems with distant starlight. Now you're fabricating stuff about things I never said on top of making smears.scordova
July 1, 2013
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scordova @ 26 The OP is about YEC. You brought up evidence you said solves YEC’s problem with distant starlight. When I challenged this, you gave an extremely vague response then asserted this was off topic and a subject for another day. That’s avoiding the subject.
Deference isn't the same as avoidance, and neither is admission and recognition of a problem avoidance. I don't a appreciate the smear, or at least your wording is inaccurate and insinuates something untrue.scordova
July 1, 2013
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scordova @ 26 The OP is about YEC. You brought up evidence you said solves YEC's problem with distant starlight. When I challenged this, you gave an extremely vague response then asserted this was off topic and a subject for another day. That's avoiding the subject. I make no pretence that you are obligated to respond to anything I say - of course you're not. But by the same token I am not obligated to refrain from pointing out that you avoided the subject, because that's what you did. You object to my implication that you avoid pointing out serious problems with YEC. But, again, that's exactly what you did and I do not apologise for the implication. Have a look at your post 11 and note that nowhere do you point out serious problems with those proposed solutions for distant starlight. You compound this by later referring to Humphrey's cosmology without mentioning its serious problems either, e.g. that it predicts distant starlight should be blue-shifted, the very opposite of what is observed. If you have elsewhere pointed out serious problems with these YEC concepts (something I have no knowledge of), then why on earth are you raising those concepts here, in the context of this thread, as though they were credible ideas? That's exactly the kind of avoidance I was commenting on. Don't blame me for the own goal. Sorry if this seems harsh. In light of these remarks, if you still believe I have unfairly smeared you, I am open to discussing it further with you. Cheers PS: Thank you for providing the evidence requested in relation to distant stars that appear too old - I will have a look.CLAVDIVS
July 1, 2013
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FLRW and Hartnett are talking about the large-scale structure of the universe. And we know from measurements of SN1987A that it occurred at least 160,000 years ago, regardless of whether the speed of light was the same then, or whether it has sped up or slowed down.
Not if we're talking a Humphrey's solution to GR, because in their cosmologies, 160,000 may have actually passed. I don't personally agree with it. Further, the SN1987 wouldn't matter if light were indeed actively faster today (via spatial variation rather than temporal variation) than a slow down scenario.
It’s not beyond the scope of the OP, which is specifically about YEC. It’s understandable you want to avoid discussion because YEC conflicts with the evidence so badly. But avoidance wont make the problems go away.
I don't appreciate such smears. I've publicly critical of YEC and ID problems. You're insinuating I'm somehow trying to cover up the problems. I've publicly said YEC has serious problems. I don't appreciate you smears. The OP is why Denyse is not a YEC. These topics might be explored in due time. I have other discussions of interest to me right now.
You’re the one that claimed evidence – do you actually have any that distant stars do not appear young enough?
Entire galaxies:
Scientists have discovered the most distant massive structure yet detected in the Universe, a fully formed galaxy cluster containing hundreds, if not thousands, of galaxies. The discovery is evidence that the Universe's elegant hierarchal structure of stars, galaxies and clusters formed quickly after the big bang, far earlier than most astronomers thought possible just a few years ago. We see an entire network of stars and galaxies in place at just a few billion years after the big bang, like a kingdom popping up overnight on Earth." The newly discovered cluster is about 9 billion light years from Earth, a half billion light years farther out than the previous record holder. This means the cluster was mature when the Universe was only 5 billion years old, and that the stars and galaxies formed and assembled into a cluster within only a few billion years. The Universe is now 13.7 billion years old. .... "We have underestimated how quickly the early Universe matured into its present-day incarnation," said Dr. Piero Rosati at ESO headquarters in Garching, Germany, a co-author on the report. "The Universe grew up fast." The scientists said this discovery might be the tip of the iceberg. Their results are based on a first peek at archived XMM-Newton data from the past four years. Other clusters undoubtedly lie hidden in the data archive waiting to be discovered, they said. http://www.spacedaily.com/news/cosmology-05j.html
Btw, I really don't appreciate your smears. I reserve the right to cease talking to you. I will talk on these matters later, but terms convenient to me, not you. YEC has serious problems, and I don't appreciate your smear that I somehow insist otherwise or am trying to somehow avoid pointing them out. I've been one of the most vocal at UD in saying YEC has problems.scordova
July 1, 2013
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JGuy @ 24 Sorry, Setterfield's discussion simply misses my point. I'm not referring to SN1987A as evidence that c has remained unchanged. Rather, simple trigonometry shows that SN1987A must have exploded at least 160,000 years ago regardless of whether c has changed. The reason is simple: a. The supernova was observed to explode on 23 Feb 1987. b. About 8 months later (0.66 years) the light from the explosion was observed to illuminate a ring of dust/gas around the supernova. c. The angular size of the overall ring was measured to be 1.66 seconds of arc, so the angular size from the centre of the ring to the edge was 1.66/2 = 0.83 seconds of arc. All this tells us the light from the supernova explosion has travelled along all three sides of a right triangle: a. The base - from the supernova to the earth. b. The height - from the supernova to the ring which took 0.66 years c. The hypotenuse - from the ring to the earth Now, we have measured the angle between the hypotenuse and the base to be 0.83 seconds of arc, and time taken for light to travel the height of the triangle to be 0.66 years. Therefore, by simple trigonometry the base of the triangle - or the time taken for light to travel from the supernova to the earth - is equal to 0.66/TAN(0.83") ~ 164,000 years. What's even more interesting about this is you can plug any speed of light you choose into this calculation, or even a changing speed of light, and you will find that you cannot make the base of the triangle come out any less than ~160,000 years. This shows that a changing speed of light doesn't solve the problem of distant starlight for a young-universe scenario. I urge you to try to calculation yourself - let me know how you go!CLAVDIVS
July 1, 2013
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