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Why is Barry Arrington Stifling Dissent at UD?

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If you visit some of our more vociferous opponents’ websites that is the question being asked. The answer, of course, is that I am not stifling rational argument on this site. In fact, just the opposite is true; my purpose has been to weed out those who refuse to engage in rational argument so that rational argument can be pursued by those who remain. Since, however, recent modifications to this site’s moderation policy have caused such a brouhaha, I feel compelled to lay out a formal defense.

1. The Rules of Thought.

The rules of thought are the first principles of right reason. Those rules are:

The Law of Identity: An object is the same as itself.

The Law of Non-contradiction: Contradictory statements cannot both at the same time be true.

The Law of the Excluded Middle: For any proposition, either that proposition is true or its negation is true.

Importantly, the second two laws really boil down to the first law. As the Wikipedia article explains:

The law of non-contradiction and the law of excluded middle are not separate laws per se, but correlates of the law of identity. That is to say, they are two interdependent and complementary principles that inhere naturally (implicitly) within the law of identity, as its essential nature. To understand how these supplementary laws relate to the law of identity, one must recognize the dichotomizing nature of the law of identity. By this I mean that whenever we ‘identify’ a thing as belonging to a certain class or instance of a class, we intellectually set that thing apart from all the other things in existence which are ‘not’ of that same class or instance of a class. In other words, the proposition, “A is A and A is not ~A” (law of identity) intellectually partitions a universe of discourse (the domain of all things) into exactly two subsets, A and ~A, and thus gives rise to a dichotomy. As with all dichotomies, A and ~A must then be ‘mutually exclusive’ and ‘jointly exhaustive’ with respect to that universe of discourse. In other words, ‘no one thing can simultaneously be a member of both A and ~A’ (law of non-contradiction), whilst ‘every single thing must be a member of either A or ~A’ (law of excluded middle).

Thus, anyone who rejects the law of non-contradiction or the law of the excluded middle also rejects the law of identity and vice versa.

Note that the three laws of thought cannot be proven. They are either accepted as self-evident axioms – or not. The fundamental principles of right reason must be accepted as axioms for the simple reason that they cannot be demonstrated. There is no way to “argue for argument” and it is foolish to try to do so. If one’s goal in arguing is to arrive at the truth of a matter, arguing with a person who rejects the law of idenity is counterproductive, because he has rejected the very concept of “truth” as a meaningful category.

And just here is the rub. If a person rejects the laws of thought, he is not disagreeing about the evidence. He is not disagreeing about the logic. He is not disagreeing about meaning. He is saying, essentially, that the terms “evidence,” “logic” and “meaning” are meaningless concepts. It does no good to show such a person that his statement is self-referentially incoherent, because self-referential incoherence is exactly what he intends and he is not bothered by it. Whitman captures this attitude nicely:

Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)
Walt Whitman, “Song of Myself”

The issue, then, is not whether persons who disagree with us on the facts and logic will be allowed to debate on this site. Anyone who disagrees about the facts and logic is free to come here at any time. But if you come on here and say, essentially, that facts and logic do not matter, then we have no use for you. Would any of my readers try to argue with a person who tells them that he is going to employ the means of rational argument to demonstrate that rational argument does not exist. Of course not, because such a person is either a fool or evil or both.

Anyone who says a proposition can be simultaneously true and false demonstrates that his understanding is deeply disordered. It is pointless to argue with him, because he has rejected the basis of all argument, and arguing with him will only cause confusion and frustration, which is why Ibn Sina (Avicenna) famously wrote: “Anyone who denies the law of non-contradiction should be beaten and burned until he admits that to be beaten is not the same as not to be beaten, and to be burned is not the same as not to be burned.”

Of course I am not suggesting that anyone should be beaten or burned and neither was Avicenna. He was employing hyperbole to demonstrate that it is useless to argue with someone who rejects the first principles of argument. As someone else has said, that person does not require an argument; he requires therapy.

2. Argument on this Site

Anyone is free to come onto this site and, abiding the rules of rational debate, engage in rational debate. We will not, however, tolerate those who refuse to abide by the rules of rational debate any more than we would get into a boxing ring with someone who announces in advance that they do not feel bound by the rule against hitting below the belt.

If we are wrong, show us that we are wrong. But don’t try to tell us that we can be wrong and right at the same time.

If the evidence is against us, show us how the evidence is against us. But don’t try to tell us that the evidence can exist and not exist at the same time.

If our logic is faulty, point out to us how our logic is faulty. But don’t try to tell us that the fundamental principles of logic are false.

For example, I just put up a post on the tautology question. Anyone is free to come onto this site and try to convince me (or, more importantly, the lurkers) that what I have said is not true. No one is free to come onto this site and try to convince me that it is “true” that there is no truth.

Some have made the ludicrous suggestion that I have banned all Darwinists from this site. Do you really mean to suggest that there were only eight Darwinists in all of the blogosphere and I’ve banned them all and UD is now destined to become an echo chamber for all time? Piffle. There are literally millions of Darwinists with access to the internet. And every single one of them who is willing to abide by the rules of rational argument is free to come onto this site and do their very best to show us we are wrong.

But to those who wish only to engage in vain and useless babbling that serves only to sow the seeds of confusion, discord and error, I say go spew somewhere else.

Comments
BA @111:
WJM got author privileges becuase he writes cogent, thoughtful comments.
Dang. I don't have author privileges so I'll take that as an indirect affront to my comments. I always thought my comments (well, some of them at least) were cogent and thoughtful. :)Eric Anderson
March 19, 2013
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My mistake. WJM got author privileges becuase he writes cogent, thoughtful comments. You could learn something from him Alan, but I doubt you will.Barry Arrington
March 19, 2013
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Looks like William got author privileges because Barry thought he was someone else! :)Alan Fox
March 19, 2013
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This has come up over and over again, and is understandable. WJM always has to clarify who he is and who he isn't.Upright BiPed
March 19, 2013
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Alan @106, Nobody can know what someone else thinks; one can only judge by what they write and say. It has been my experience with friends, online debates and from reading some well-known atheists that they, for the most part, will entertain any explanation, no matter how unsupportable or absurd, and deny any argument and evidence, no matter how obvious, in order to avoid even approaching the conclusion that god exists. Thus, we get Hawking making the claim that infinite universes and everything in them can come from nothing, Dawkins admitting that biological features absolutely appear as if designed; but then outright denies that design might be part of the explanation, and Lewontin flatly insisting that no divine foot shall be let in the door of explanation. I think a lot of atheists come to atheism the same way I did; they were exposed to ham-fisted teachings about what was to them a frightful, vengeful, arbitrary, warmongering "bronze age god" (as KN put it) in their youth and rightfully rejected that notion of god. Unfortunately, as I did, they threw the baby out with the dirty bathwater. They were not exposed to the more reasoned concept of god offered by CS Lewis, Aquinas, etc., nor more reasoned arguments for the existence of god offered by many good theistic philosophers. Their education about the concept of god stopped with their moral outrage against the "bronze age god", which is clear by how the modern cadre of published atheists argue against that god, and is clear enough when atheists here often refer to the "stone age god" or "bronze age god" in their diatribes. They are stuck in rejection against an adolescent caricature, not against an adult, well-reasoned and evidenced theism. Unfortunately, whenever someone uses the word "god" in an argument, it triggers their juvenile "sky-daddy" concept and they go into automatic full rejection and ridicule mode, and reason goes out the window.William J Murray
March 19, 2013
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Alan Fox:
Know many atheists well enough to know what they think, Murray?
I do because I have had that conversation with them and they agree.Joe
March 19, 2013
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For many atheists, when reason leads towards god, they abandon their reason, not their atheism.
Know many atheists well enough to know what they think, Murray?Alan Fox
March 19, 2013
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PS @ Barry, If you genuinely want Lizzie to be able to comment at Uncommon Descent again, you may want to think about the technical aspect such as reactivating her account, removing moderation restriction or whatever you did that requires undoing.Alan Fox
March 19, 2013
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KN has always been polite and, even in those cases in which he seems out on a limb, has nearly always been willing to have a gentlemen's discussion. I enjoy having him on this site.Eric Anderson
March 18, 2013
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For many atheists, when reason leads towards god, they abandon their reason, not their atheism.William J Murray
March 18, 2013
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SB at 101. Just so.Barry Arrington
March 18, 2013
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Barry @97, I suspect that there is a cost-benefit trade off that cannot be avoided. To me, the question of numbers and space taken is one important criterion for stringency. An ideal mixture might be something on the order of 60-65% ID commentary and 35-40% anti-ID commentary. When an inordinate amount of verbiage is dedicated to the latter, the reader can easily get the impression that the quantity of words written reflects the validity of the arguments being made. If no one takes the time to respond, onlookers may think that no answer is possible. What I am suggesting is that we can be more tolerant of nonsense when there is plenty of intellectual talent around to counter it and less tolerant when it comes in the form of an unmanageable tidal wave. To be sure, substance is more important than perception, but perception does matter, especially in this era of rampant anti-intellectualism. Notice, for example, that Kantian Naturalist, who claims to be a philosopher, cannot even provide his own definition of rationality. On the question of reason's rules, I agree that it is impossible to have a rational discussion with those who disavow them. The daunting fact is that many (perhaps even most) of our adversaries are in that camp, though few of them are conscious of being that way. To be sure, some will claim to accept rational standards after having receiving the requisite remedial education, but once we probe with concrete examples, it becomes clear that they reject its application, which is just another way of rejecting the principle that informs it.StephenB
March 18, 2013
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Barry, Just so you know- you have been invited over to the septic zone where you can present your arguments to the willfully ignorant.Joe
March 18, 2013
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Alan Fox:
...may be of the view that participation here is perhaps not worth the time she devoted.
She definitely didn't didn't devote any of her attention to what ID and IDists actually say. But then again, neither do you nor any other evo-k-nevosJoe
March 18, 2013
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Barry:
I’m happy to give EL another chance if she wants it.
I'll pass the invitation on, though I suspect Dr. Liddle has many calls on her time currently and may be of the view that participation here is perhaps not worth the time she devoted. But that's just my impression and let's see what happens.Alan Fox
March 18, 2013
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StephenB, I am coming more and more to the view that allowing people like KN and Liddle to spew their sophistry can actually be a good thing. It does put the onus on folks like you and GEM and Eric and BA and UB and WJM and many others here to post correctives (over and over and over and over again) and that can be irritating and time consuming. In the end, the people can choose.Barry Arrington
March 18, 2013
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It would seem that if we have room for Kantian Naturalist, who rejects reason itself, we could also make room for Elizabeth Liddle, who merely rejects the evidence and arguments from reason. The former crime is more serious and more fundamental.StephenB
March 18, 2013
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Just don't expect a different result. :razz: d'ohJoe
March 18, 2013
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I'm happy to give EL another chance if she wants it.Barry Arrington
March 18, 2013
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Notice, no takers on the essay offer.kairosfocus
March 18, 2013
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Incidentally, I find it quite interesting that the ID bashers who show up on UD usually exhibit trollish behavior (AF and NM being prime examples). For some reason I don't think it's mere coincidence...Optimus
March 17, 2013
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I think there's tremendous value in having dissenting voices on UD, but like anything else too much of a good thing is a detriment. How many fascinating threads have been totally derailed by facile objections and sophomoric arguments? We've all watched as commenters (coff..Gregory..coff) engaged in obsessive diatribes about punctuation, incessantly motive mongered, ignored the OP, etc. At some point enough is enough. If UD is to function as a place for productive exchange on fairly controversial subjects, then sometimes the weeds have to be pulled. Imagine what this place would look like without moderation!Optimus
March 17, 2013
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Driver @50:
[Elizabeth Liddle] is a penetrative critic of ID . . .
Driver, you're a hoot! Thanks for the laugh! Just for the record, I should add that I was against her being banned and said so at the time. I think there is value in having more ID critics on UD. But then again, I didn't have quite as long of an engagement with her as some others had, so perhaps my patience hadn't yet worn so thin . . .Eric Anderson
March 17, 2013
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Barry, IMO, you should give all ban posters another go. But this time, when you ban a poster, put up the evidence for all to see; i.e such and such poster has jsut been banned and here is the post that violated the rules (with the infraction highlighted for easy referral). It may never satisfy 'the banned one'. But it will go a long way to dispel any notion that you are banning on a whim. 2 cents in the jar. Cling, clang.Steve
March 17, 2013
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"For one thing, there are no such rules."
Except for that one?
And this one: Every rule has an exception ;)Chance Ratcliff
March 17, 2013
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I suppose that if there are no rules of right reason, then I am free to reach whatever conclusions I wish from KN's #82. If I conclude that KN is a sophist that is only attempting to amuse himself by concocting inscrutable positions and assertions, then that - by KN's "no rules" paradigm, is indeed a fair conclusions. It's no wonder that it's so difficult to engage in meaningful conversation with KN; he doesn't abide any rules of reason. That explains a lot.William J Murray
March 17, 2013
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For one thing, there are no such rules.
Except for that one?William J Murray
March 17, 2013
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Just because one might not be aware of the rules does not mean they are not required for reasoned (logical) discourse. It seems to me that the rules provide exactly the context necessary for two people to even begin to have a rational discussion that can be anything but subjective babble, void of actual communication. Toss out the rules and reason goes with them. Deem them unnecessary and objectivity is kaput. Of course, one might already have abandoned belief in objectivity, in which case nothing really matters anyway, and we might as well just talk about the weather, because sound versus fallacious reasoning would maintain no distinction. Is A=A always true, always false, or conditionally true? What about ¬(A∧¬A), or A∨¬A, and how do we know? Can something be contingent, impossible, and necessary at the same time? How might one argue for that proposition, or against it, without presuming the rules? By the way, the weather's fair here, and it's not. And that's both true and false, which may or may not be the case. Therefore there's nothing meaningful which can be said about the weather; but even that conclusion depends upon self-evident axioms, which don't exist, and do. Down is up, which it's not, while being so; left is right and left, but neither. If you walk forward while I walk backward, perhaps we can have a nice chat together along the way, about presuming reason's rules in order to deny them.Chance Ratcliff
March 17, 2013
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Kantian Naturalist: "The idea that the capacity to engage in reasoned discourse depends upon a commitment to “the rules of right reason” is silly (at best). For one thing, there are no such rules." Define reasoned or reasonable discourse and distinguish if from unreasoned or unreasonable discourse.StephenB
March 17, 2013
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KN: Suppose I took what you were just saying as a ringing endorsement of BA's point, and that you really meant that you affirmed that there are first principles of right reason that demonstrably exist and are foundational to reasoned and reasonable discussion? (Recall, one of those principles you are trying to dismiss is, in one rough expression, that A does not simultaneously mean Not_A.) KFkairosfocus
March 17, 2013
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