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Why is Barry Arrington Stifling Dissent at UD?

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If you visit some of our more vociferous opponents’ websites that is the question being asked. The answer, of course, is that I am not stifling rational argument on this site. In fact, just the opposite is true; my purpose has been to weed out those who refuse to engage in rational argument so that rational argument can be pursued by those who remain. Since, however, recent modifications to this site’s moderation policy have caused such a brouhaha, I feel compelled to lay out a formal defense.

1. The Rules of Thought.

The rules of thought are the first principles of right reason. Those rules are:

The Law of Identity: An object is the same as itself.

The Law of Non-contradiction: Contradictory statements cannot both at the same time be true.

The Law of the Excluded Middle: For any proposition, either that proposition is true or its negation is true.

Importantly, the second two laws really boil down to the first law. As the Wikipedia article explains:

The law of non-contradiction and the law of excluded middle are not separate laws per se, but correlates of the law of identity. That is to say, they are two interdependent and complementary principles that inhere naturally (implicitly) within the law of identity, as its essential nature. To understand how these supplementary laws relate to the law of identity, one must recognize the dichotomizing nature of the law of identity. By this I mean that whenever we ‘identify’ a thing as belonging to a certain class or instance of a class, we intellectually set that thing apart from all the other things in existence which are ‘not’ of that same class or instance of a class. In other words, the proposition, “A is A and A is not ~A” (law of identity) intellectually partitions a universe of discourse (the domain of all things) into exactly two subsets, A and ~A, and thus gives rise to a dichotomy. As with all dichotomies, A and ~A must then be ‘mutually exclusive’ and ‘jointly exhaustive’ with respect to that universe of discourse. In other words, ‘no one thing can simultaneously be a member of both A and ~A’ (law of non-contradiction), whilst ‘every single thing must be a member of either A or ~A’ (law of excluded middle).

Thus, anyone who rejects the law of non-contradiction or the law of the excluded middle also rejects the law of identity and vice versa.

Note that the three laws of thought cannot be proven. They are either accepted as self-evident axioms – or not. The fundamental principles of right reason must be accepted as axioms for the simple reason that they cannot be demonstrated. There is no way to “argue for argument” and it is foolish to try to do so. If one’s goal in arguing is to arrive at the truth of a matter, arguing with a person who rejects the law of idenity is counterproductive, because he has rejected the very concept of “truth” as a meaningful category.

And just here is the rub. If a person rejects the laws of thought, he is not disagreeing about the evidence. He is not disagreeing about the logic. He is not disagreeing about meaning. He is saying, essentially, that the terms “evidence,” “logic” and “meaning” are meaningless concepts. It does no good to show such a person that his statement is self-referentially incoherent, because self-referential incoherence is exactly what he intends and he is not bothered by it. Whitman captures this attitude nicely:

Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)
Walt Whitman, “Song of Myself”

The issue, then, is not whether persons who disagree with us on the facts and logic will be allowed to debate on this site. Anyone who disagrees about the facts and logic is free to come here at any time. But if you come on here and say, essentially, that facts and logic do not matter, then we have no use for you. Would any of my readers try to argue with a person who tells them that he is going to employ the means of rational argument to demonstrate that rational argument does not exist. Of course not, because such a person is either a fool or evil or both.

Anyone who says a proposition can be simultaneously true and false demonstrates that his understanding is deeply disordered. It is pointless to argue with him, because he has rejected the basis of all argument, and arguing with him will only cause confusion and frustration, which is why Ibn Sina (Avicenna) famously wrote: “Anyone who denies the law of non-contradiction should be beaten and burned until he admits that to be beaten is not the same as not to be beaten, and to be burned is not the same as not to be burned.”

Of course I am not suggesting that anyone should be beaten or burned and neither was Avicenna. He was employing hyperbole to demonstrate that it is useless to argue with someone who rejects the first principles of argument. As someone else has said, that person does not require an argument; he requires therapy.

2. Argument on this Site

Anyone is free to come onto this site and, abiding the rules of rational debate, engage in rational debate. We will not, however, tolerate those who refuse to abide by the rules of rational debate any more than we would get into a boxing ring with someone who announces in advance that they do not feel bound by the rule against hitting below the belt.

If we are wrong, show us that we are wrong. But don’t try to tell us that we can be wrong and right at the same time.

If the evidence is against us, show us how the evidence is against us. But don’t try to tell us that the evidence can exist and not exist at the same time.

If our logic is faulty, point out to us how our logic is faulty. But don’t try to tell us that the fundamental principles of logic are false.

For example, I just put up a post on the tautology question. Anyone is free to come onto this site and try to convince me (or, more importantly, the lurkers) that what I have said is not true. No one is free to come onto this site and try to convince me that it is “true” that there is no truth.

Some have made the ludicrous suggestion that I have banned all Darwinists from this site. Do you really mean to suggest that there were only eight Darwinists in all of the blogosphere and I’ve banned them all and UD is now destined to become an echo chamber for all time? Piffle. There are literally millions of Darwinists with access to the internet. And every single one of them who is willing to abide by the rules of rational argument is free to come onto this site and do their very best to show us we are wrong.

But to those who wish only to engage in vain and useless babbling that serves only to sow the seeds of confusion, discord and error, I say go spew somewhere else.

Comments
paulmc:
People like Joe stream invective at whoever he sees as his opposition,
Wrong. Anything I do is in response- IOW my invective is due to some invective directed towards myself, some other person or ID. So perhaps you need to take a real good look at what is going on because you are clearly biased.Joe
February 16, 2012
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Axel,
I think I’ve finally discovered why the meaning of the word, ‘design’ is ambiguous in the eyes of the materialists. Pace the Academie Francaise, words are coined, not by learned institutes, but by people. By definition, the term, design’, in its various languages, via an instinctive, world-wide consensus, signifies the template for an artefact of some kind.
Allow me to suggest an alternative explanation. The word "design" is both a verb and a known. As a verb, it denotes a process, which involves conceiving or inventing. As a noun, it denotes the output of this process. Imagine if some unknown space alien left something on your doorstep. Is it designed? Knowing nothing about either the object or the alien, at best you can flip a coin. And that's because you have no background knowledge. So the bottom line, at least to materialists, is that no object inherently "has design", except in light of the historical knowledge of the design process that produced it. And to be honest, this process must be understood in some detail - what was the intent, what were the mechanics, etc. In other words, you must know the design specification. There is no object you can point to and say "this is designed" that will satisfy a materialist UNLESS you can show the designer and derive his intent - even if the designer is a spider, a bird, etc. ID proponents attempt to circumvent this issue by the simple expedient of formulating their claims so as to avoid mentioning the designer, the intent or purpose, the specification, the process's mechanics, etc. We all know who He is, right? But if we mention Him, ID suddenly becomes religion, and the courts don't like that. But implicitly, ID proponents are nonetheless recognizing that if the design history is unknown, design simply cannot be inferred.David W. Gibson
February 16, 2012
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Axel, you don't think that non-ID scientists working in evolution-related disciplines are able to make insightful contributions to these discussions? You seem to want UD to be a closed community of IDers. If that's typical of UD folk, fine. But that has never been the impression I've gotten. Obviously, this is an ID-focussed forum, but it has also served as a testing ground for ideas. I'd note that what's particularly important for the non-IDers who venture here is that the tropics often are discussions of mainstream evolutionary science. There are threads on the homepage at the moment discussing whether epigenetics could be an icon of ID, and whether a particular definition of evolution is a tautology. Is it surprising that people might want to chime in with comments on these topics? In my case, it isn't a matter of enjoying an argument for argument's sake. It is a matter of disliking the misrepresentation of science. On topics like junk DNA, I regularly see the science misrepresented. I am yet to meet an IDist with an adequate understanding of population genetics to fully engage in a discussion of junk DNA - and I include Jonathan Wells in that, by the way. That doesn't stop folk from making all manner of outrageous and erroneous claims about the 'death of junk DNA'.paulmc
February 16, 2012
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I won’t even bother to address Gibson’s assertion that “language is so inherently ambiguous that it is all but impossible to convey meaning” other than to note that he conveyed that thought in, yes, language. It always astounds me that people who say things like that (1) don’t seem to recognize the irony of their statement; and (2) hypocritically insist on an unspoken exception for their statements.
I was quite startled to discover this quote of my words in Barry's post, since I never said it. And indeed, it would have been a stupid thing to say, since it's not true. Certainly it's not what I intended. So I actually went back to see what I had actually written. To my surprise, it's still there. Here is what I actually wrote:
Part of this problem is the inherent ambiguity of language itself. Nearly every word in the language has multiple meanings, and most common words are encumbered with connotations, implications, and suggestions.
I went on to give an example. I notice that 1) My point was completely misrepresented 2) My example is carefully omitted 3) Barry mocks me for something not said and not intended. No wonder he "won't even bother to address" the false quote he attributes to me. And incidentally, I entirely agree with Barry's dismissal of the claim he falsely attributes to me, and for the very reasons he gives. It's basically for those reasons that I made no such claim.David W. Gibson
February 16, 2012
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'Elizabeth Liddle, Eigenstate and DrRec. None of them have ever refused to engage in rational argument here. Quite the opposite. But it seems that Barry disagrees, and considers their input irrational and unworthy of this blog. And it seems many of you agree with him.' My hypothesis is that according to Barry (and most pro ID posters here), there are no ID critics that can pass this test. And all this stuff about the LNC and the moon are just pretenses, to avoid making the less subtle, but more truly felt claim that there are no rational arguments against ID, and hence every ID critic that posts here is irrational and unworthy to post here.' Apart from your initial assertion that is correct, lastyearon, although it is, rather, a felicitous side-effect of Barry's clearly-defined, logical criterion. Why do you expect people who have wholly antithetical assumptions, basic assumptions, concerning the nature of the scientific method and the requirement to adhere to it, to wish to argue with you, or Elizabeth or the others? paulmc bafflingly wrote: 'Whenever ID advocates start asking why no ‘Darwinists’ are on UD addressing their arguments, one of the prominent reasons will always be ‘because they were banned.’ I don't think you get it at all, Paul. Few, if any, will miss their 'insights'. Some folk like arguing for its own sake, but I don't think there are many of them on here. I believe it's more about discussions about our broadly- (but no too broadly) agreed views, and about recent developments in science and pseudo-science.Axel
February 16, 2012
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What's so special about that flagellum thinggy?Axel
February 16, 2012
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I think I've finally discovered why the meaning of the word, 'design' is ambiguous in the eyes of the materialists. Pace the Academie Francaise, words are coined, not by learned institutes, but by people. By definition, the term, design', in its various languages, via an instinctive, world-wide consensus, signifies the template for an artefact of some kind. Every now and then we read in a newspaper that a small group of people somewhere have found a turnip that looks to them remarkably like a human face, etc. Or it might be a cloud formation. Personally, as a Christian, I doubt if God meant us to draw any such conclusions from them, but would this not be the version of an otherwise oxymoronic concept of randomness of design that the materialists invoke? That, perhaps the universe and its contents share a kind of kinship in this regard with these curiously anthropomorphically-configured turnips?Axel
February 16, 2012
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What were the proximate causes that led to these individuals being banned?
In my opinion, they were banned because the represented exactly what Barry and co. don't believe are possible--articulate, informed, rational arguments against ID, and the cognitive dissonance was too great.lastyearon
February 16, 2012
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Is "Some people like chocolate" ambiguous? Isn't that the same as saying "Two or more people like chocolate?" That's assuming agreeable definitions for "like" and "chocolate." I like it and my wife likes it, so that statement is unambiguously true.ScottAndrews2
February 16, 2012
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lastyearon: "Elizabeth Liddle, Eigenstate and DrRec." Flesh that out a little. What were the proximate causes that led to these individuals being banned? Perhaps Berry can add something too.StuartHarris
February 16, 2012
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David W. Gibson asks “what about ambiguity?” Aristotle allowed for ambiguity when he formulated the laws: “It is impossible, then, that 'being a man' should mean precisely 'not being a man', if 'man' not only signifies something about one subject but also has one significance. … And it will not be possible to be and not to be the same thing, except in virtue of an ambiguity, just as if one whom we call 'man', and others were to call 'not-man'; but the point in question is not this, whether the same thing can at the same time be and not be a man in name, but whether it can be in fact.” (Metaphysics) In other words, we’ve known for thousands of years that ambiguity does not defeat the laws of thought. Take Gibson’s own example of chocolate. It is probably true that “people like chocolate” is ambiguous and it needs to be revised as a formulation. How about: “All people like chocolate.” We could test that proposition and if we find that one person does not like chocolate it is false. We would then be obliged to say that the proposition “all people like chocolate” is false, which means under the law of the excluded middle that it cannot possibly be the case that the proposition “all people like chocolate” is simultaneously true. For purposes of the moderation rule it is important to keep in mind that disagreements about whether a proposition is ambiguous are not the same as denying the law of the excluded middle. I won’t even bother to address Gibson’s assertion that “language is so inherently ambiguous that it is all but impossible to convey meaning” other than to note that he conveyed that thought in, yes, language. It always astounds me that people who say things like that (1) don’t seem to recognize the irony of their statement; and (2) hypocritically insist on an unspoken exception for their statements.Barry Arrington
February 16, 2012
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lastyearon and paulmc: “You’ve banned all of us Darwinists!!!” Barry in his best Monty Python voice: “You don’t look like you’re banned.” lastyearon and paulmc (with a bemused look on their face): “Well, uh, we got better.”
Kindly re-read my words. I said three things: 1) You banned a large number of the vocal non-ID commenters here - not "you banned all us Darwinists". I spend sporadic bursts here, I am not a regular like Elizabeth Liddle or DrREC. 2) The banning does not have the hallmarks of evenness. 3) You undermine your own position by silencing critics like Elizabeth Liddle, who have given a lot of time to engage here and put up with quite a lot of abuse and flak while doing so.paulmc
February 16, 2012
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Stuart,
please give your top three examples of ID critics being banned from here by Barry for reasons other than refusing to adhere to the three rules of thought detailed in this topic.
Elizabeth Liddle, Eigenstate and DrRec. None of them have ever refused to engage in rational argument here. Quite the opposite. But it seems that Barry disagrees, and considers their input irrational and unworthy of this blog. And it seems many of you agree with him. My hypothesis is that according to Barry (and most pro ID posters here), there are no ID critics that can pass this test. And all this stuff about the LNC and the moon are just pretenses, to avoid making the less subtle, but more truly felt claim that there are no rational arguments against ID, and hence every ID critic that posts here is irrational and unworthy to post here.lastyearon
February 16, 2012
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lastyearon and paulmc: "You've banned all of us Darwinists!!!" Barry in his best Monty Python voice: "You don't look like you're banned." lastyearon and paulmc (with a bemused look on their face): "Well, uh, we got better."Barry Arrington
February 16, 2012
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In principle, these laws are entirely reasonable. In application, not so much. Consider the legal system. The laws passed by Congress are intended to be clear, understandable, unambiguous. Yet legal disputes fill the courts every day and always will. The law of the excluded middle, for example, is perfectly fine IF a statement is unambiguous. Take the statement "people like chocolate." Is this claim true? Well, SOME people like chocolate, but certainly not all. Many people are allergic to chocolate. So then is the negation of this statement true, that people do NOT like chocolate? No, that's not true either - plenty of people like chocolate. So is the original statement ill-formed? What would constitute a well-formed statement, without being so vague as not to communicate anything? This question becomes important in the realm of ID, where there seems to be plenty of scope for interpreting exactly what ID implies, what its limitations (if any) might be, to what degree it can be demonstrated or tested, whether or not any part of what it implies can be falsified, and so on. I suppose one might make the somewhat non-referential statement that ID holds that life, and probably other stuff, was designed by an intelligent agent or agency other than natural feedback processes, by means and at times currently unknown and apparently unknowable. Unless ID means something else, of course. I wouldn't even want to try to formulate the opposite claim. What exactly would the negation of this look like? Part of this problem is the inherent ambiguity of language itself. Nearly every word in the language has multiple meanings, and most common words are encumbered with connotations, implications, and suggestions. Just as one example, consider the term "Darwinist" as used by Barry. In modern biology, Darwin is respected as one of the early pioneers, although everything he wrote is now regarded as either wrong or very incomplete, just like the writings of Newton or Galileo. Great men, but not current. The term "Darwinist", technically meaning (I suppose) one who accepts as important the evolutionary process of random mutation and natural selection, has in practice taken on a pejorative flavor. Those who accept the modern theory of evolution don't think of themselves as "Darwinists" at all. The theory has left Darwin far, far behind. He's a historical curiosity anymore. Barry writes of the importance of evidence, and who would disagree? Yet in practice, two entirely different meanings of "evidence" emerge. Sure, evidence consists of those observations in support of some conclusion. But does the conclusion rest on the evidence (meaning the conclusion can be a surprise, or that multiple conclusions can be derived from the same body of observations), or does evidence rest on the conclusion (like the ICR agreement members must sign, that if their evidence refutes gospel, it is not evidence, since it must be false.) This matters, because in practice evidence is slippery stuff. Court experience tells us no two eyewitnesses saw the same event - the collection of evidence is contingent on the method of collection. And it's all too human to confuse observations with conclusions. It's easy to confuse what the facts ARE, with what they MEAN. And it's easy to regard opinions as facts, like saying Einstein was a great physicist, or even that he was very smart. These are value judgments, not evidence but rather conclusions drawn from one particular interpretation of the evidence. And all of this is compounded by the human tendency to regard anyone who disagrees with us as having questionable judgment if the matter is not important to us, and being either abject idiots, liars, or deliberate trolls if it IS important to us. It's human for all of us to take it for granted that if there were a better opinion than ours, we'd already hold it! We understand that this site is dedicated to promoting one particular view, and enthusiastic disagreement with that view is almost guaranteed to be regarded as perverse, irrational, troublemaking, in violation of simple rules, etc. I would argue that it's the responsibility of those who disagree with the Official Truth this site was created to promote, to be polite and thoughtful. But it also helps to bear in mind that there is plenty of scope here for legitimate disagreement, and that rational debate doesn't necessarily imply agreement.David W. Gibson
February 16, 2012
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Do you really mean to suggest that there were only eight Darwinists in all of the blogosphere and I’ve banned them all and UD is now destined to become an echo chamber for all time?
I think what people are saying is that those eight were a large proportion of the vocal evolutionist/materialist folk here who were offering a different view. Not that there are "eight Darwinists in the blogosphere". Frankly, it is difficult for me as an outside observer to see that the rules have been enforced evenly. People like Joe stream invective at whoever he sees as his opposition, often without adding anything to the discussion at hand - saying many much worse things than what has seen others banned. He's still here. For example. Ultimately, this all undermines the ID position. Whenever ID advocates start asking why no 'Darwinists' are on UD addressing their arguments, one of the prominent reasons will always be 'because they were banned.'paulmc
February 16, 2012
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lastyearon: “You removed just about every critic of ID from the site.” That's a big claim. Lastyearon, please give your top three examples of ID critics being banned from here by Barry for reasons other than refusing to adhere to the three rules of thought detailed in this topic.StuartHarris
February 16, 2012
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Congratulations, Barry. Darwinism is self-defeating and it is usefull to remember that to the fairy-tales maker. And it´s not very good to waste time with people whio don´t respect the LNC. (Juan, from Spain, read UD everyday and agree with almost everything)creatoblepas
February 16, 2012
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lastyearon: "You removed just about every critic of ID from the site." Nonsense, as your very presence demonstrates.Barry Arrington
February 16, 2012
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You remoived just about every critic of ID from the site.
Please define "critic". And then please demonstrate how those who have been banned fit that definition.
In your opinion, can you remember any rational critics or criticisms of ID on this website.
Interesting thought- can anyone who thinks that our existence is just a happenstance, be rational?Joe
February 16, 2012
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my purpose has been to weed out those who refuse to engage in rational argument so that rational argument can be pursued by those who remain
Barry, You remoived just about every critic of ID from the site. So I conclude that you think they were all being irrational. Is that true? I asked you a similar question on the related post, and you half answered:
As a matter of fact, I assume until it is demonstrated differently that someone who disagrees with me does so in good faith.
which only answers whether you think the ID critics here were being honest. It doesn't answer whether you think they were rational. So, I ask again. In your opinion, can you remember any rational critics or criticisms of ID on this website. If not, if there is no rational criticism of ID, why ask the question about the moon. Why not simply ask, "Are you on our side or their side?"lastyearon
February 16, 2012
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To prevent the forum getting cluttered up with opinions we have not a scintilla of respect for or interest in, since they are illogical on a primordial level. Not to put too fine a point on it - completely irrational assumptions.Axel
February 16, 2012
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