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Why is the debate over design theory so often so poisonous and polarised?

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To answer this one, we need to go as far back as Aristotle’s The Rhetoric some 2300 years ago.

In this verbal self-defense classic — as in: “you gotta know what can be done, how, if you are to effectively defend yourself . . . ” —  on what has aptly been called the devilish art of persuasion by any means fair or foul, Aristotle (left, courtesy Wiki, public domain)  found this key answer to the question “How do arguments work to persuade us?” in Book I Ch 2:

“Of the modes of persuasion furnished by the spoken word there are three kinds. The first kind depends on the personal character of the speaker [ethos]; the second on putting the audience into a certain frame of mind [pathos]; the third on the proof, or apparent proof, provided by the words of the speech itself [logos]. Persuasion is achieved by the speaker’s personal character when the speech is so spoken as to make us think him credible . . . Secondly, persuasion may come through the hearers, when the speech stirs their emotions. Our judgements when we are pleased and friendly are not the same as when we are pained and hostile . . . Thirdly, persuasion is effected through the speech itself when we have proved a truth or an apparent truth by means of the persuasive arguments suitable to the case in question . . .”

Now, of course, as clever ad men and smart politicians have long since known, the most persuasive form of argument is the appeal to our emotions and underlying perceptions. Unfortunately, how we feel about something or someone is no more reasonable or accurate than the quality of the facts beneath our perceptions.

But, what does this dusty quip by a long since dead philosopher have to do with science and getting rid of creationists and their dishonest attempts to push in the supernatural into science by the back door?

A lot, and indeed that artfully cultivated and widely spread perception that we are dealing with “a war between religion and science” is at the heart of the problem.

For, if clever but willfully deceptive rhetors — Ms Forrest, B, with all due respect; sadly,  this means you — can get away with strawmannising and dismissing design thinkers as “Creationists in cheap tuxedos,” where it has already been firmly fixed in the public mind by other clever rhetors — Mr Dawkins, CR, with all due respect; sadly, this means you — that Creationists are “ignorant, stupid, insane and/or wicked,” and that such are fighting “a war against science” and want to impose “a right-wing theocracy” (presumably  complete with Inquisitions and burnings at the stake) then we can be distracted from the issues on the merits and be lured into burning ad hominem- soaked de-humanised creationist strawmen.

That’s how we come to the way a priori evolutionary materialism is now often presented as if it were the defining essence of science, “science” in this sense being taken for granted as the defining essence of “rationality.”

This last is why, in his 1997 NYRB review of Sagan’s last book, Lewontin notoriously said:

. . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality, and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test . . . .

It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [From: “Billions and Billions of Demons,” NYRB, January 9, 1997.  Emphases added. (NB: before following red herrings out to strawman rebuttal talking points, kindly, follow the link to see the context.)]

As in:  fallacy of the question-begging materialist assumption and the resulting materialism-indoctrinated, closed mind presented under false colours of science, anyone?

ID thinker, Philip Johnson’s reply that November was therefore richly deserved:

For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them “materialists employing science.” And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) “give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose” . . . .
The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [Emphasis added.] [The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]

Let’s set a contrast, by proposing a definition of science as it should be at its best, one rooted in classic definitions of science and its method (i.e. those from the days before methodological naturalism was being artfully pushed into such definitions):

science, at its best, is the unfettered — but ethically and intellectually responsible — progressive, {U/D, 06:02: observational evidence-led} pursuit of the truth about our world (i.e. an accurate and reliable description and explanation of it), based on:

a: collecting, recording, indexing, collating and reporting accurate, reliable (and where feasible, repeatable) empirical — real-world, on the ground — observations and measurements,

b: inference to best current — thus, always provisionalabductive explanation of the observed facts,

c: thus producing hypotheses, laws, theories and models, using  logical-mathematical analysis, intuition and creative, rational imagination [including Einstein’s favourite gedankenexperiment, i.e thought experiments],

d: continual empirical testing through further experiments, observations and measurement; and,

e: uncensored but mutually respectful discussion on the merits of fact, alternative assumptions and logic among the informed. (And, especially in wide-ranging areas that cut across traditional dividing lines between fields of study, or on controversial subjects, “the informed” is not to be confused with the eminent members of the guild of scholars and their publicists or popularisers who dominate a particular field at any given time.)

As a result, science enables us to ever more effectively (albeit provisionally) describe, explain, understand, predict and influence or control objects, phenomena and processes in our world.

So, plainly, no authority — even one wearing The Holy Lab Coat — is better than his or her facts, assumptions and reasoning.

As just one instance, why is it that we so often see the contrast, natural vs supernatural, when in fact ever since Plato in The Laws, Bk X, what design thinkers have put on the table is first of all the question of inferring on observable and reliable empirical signs (and this link has a counter to yet another red herring-strawman distractor) to nature vs art?

So also, we must never forget: only an argument that focuses on the merits of the well-warranted material facts — the facts that make a difference to the conclusion —  and on correct reasoning about those facts, can hope to properly warrant a conclusion.  Just so, we must also recognise that when we come to matters of fact and observation, such warrant will always be provisional.  That’s why Physics — the senior science — has undergone two major revolutions within 250 years.

When we deal with origins science issues, a further factor comes in: we are now dealing with the model, reconstructed remote past beyond observation and record. A model past that serves as a worldview foundation for many. And, since evolutionary materialism is inherently relativistic and amoral — it has in it no grounding is that can ground ought (cf. here) — we are thus right back at the force of Plato’s warning in Bk X of The Laws:

[The avant garde philosophers, teachers and artists c. 400 BC] say that the greatest and fairest things are the work of nature and of chance, the lesser of art [ i.e. techne], which, receiving from nature the greater and primeval creations, moulds and fashions all those lesser works which are generally termed artificial . . . They say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical “material” elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art, and that as to the bodies which come next in order-earth, and sun, and moon, and stars-they have been created by means of these absolutely inanimate existences. The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them-of hot with cold, or of dry with moist, or of soft with hard, and according to all the other accidental admixtures of opposites which have been formed by necessity. After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only . . . .
[T]hese people would say that the Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made. [Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT. (Cf. here for Locke’s views and sources on a very different base for grounding liberty as opposed to license and resulting anarchistic “every man does what is right in his own eyes” chaos leading to tyranny.)] These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might [Evolutionary materialism leads to the promotion of amorality], and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality “naturally” leads to continual contentions and power struggles; cf. dramatisation here],  these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others [[such amoral factions, if they gain power, “naturally” tend towards ruthless tyranny; here, too, Plato hints at the career of Alcibiades], and not in legal subjection to them . . . [Jowett translation. Emphases and explanatory parentheses added.]

To all of this, we must add the baneful and growing influence across our civilisation of the neo-marxist (and yes, he was just that — cf. RFR’s prologue here and a survey of Marxism here)  radical, Saul Alinsky. For instance, in his Rules for Radicals, we may read the following observations, recommendations and thoughts:

“The end is what you want, the means is how you get it. Whenever we think about social change, the question of means and ends arises. The man of action views the issue of means and ends in pragmatic and strategic terms. He has no other problem; he thinks only of his actual resources and the possibilities of various choices of action. He asks of ends only whether they are achievable and worth the cost; of means, only whether they will work. … The real arena is corrupt and bloody.” p.24

“The first step in community organization is community disorganization. The disruption of the present organization is the first step toward community organization. Present arrangements must be disorganized if they are to be displace by new patterns…. All change means disorganization of the old and organization of the new.” p.116

3. “Whenever possible, go outside the expertise of the enemy. Look for ways to increase insecurity, anxiety and uncertainty. (This happens all the time. Watch how many organizations under attack are blind-sided by seemingly irrelevant arguments that they are then forced to address.)

4. “Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules. You can kill them with this, for they can no more obey their own rules than the Christian church can live up to Christianity.”

[Of course, here — even at the rhetorical risk of inviting the onward tactic of deflecting a well-warranted point by using turnabout accusation — I can only speak as one finite, fallible, fallen sinner in recovery through grace to others who may access the same grace: moral struggle is a key characteristic of any serious attempt to walk in virtue. But if you go for the polarising credibility kill of characterising the other side as all hypocrites, in the end, you face the issue of the plank in your own eyes. So, while there is no immoral equivalency, this point cuts just as sharply on both sides of any issue, including this one.  Let us all therefore turn from such destructive, even demonic tactics. Far better is to accept that we all struggle and must try to help one another (even when neighbour love calls for frank correction), instead of playing at dehumanising finger-pointing games compounded by the cruel tactic of incendiary ridicule. He who plays with rhetorical matches may set a fire that blazes beyond his ability to contain.]

5. “Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon. It is almost impossible to counteract ridicule. Also it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage.” . . . .

13. Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. [NB: Notice the evil counsel to find a way to attack the man, not the issue. The easiest way to do that, is to use the trifecta stratagem: distract, distort, demonise.] In conflict tactics there are certain rules that [should be regarded] as universalities. One is that the opposition must be singled out as the target and ‘frozen.’…

“…any target can always say, ‘Why do you center on me when there are others to blame as well?’ When your ‘freeze the target,’ you disregard these [rational but distracting] arguments…. Then, as you zero in and freeze your target and carry out your attack, all the ‘others’ come out of the woodwork very soon. They become visible by their support of the target…’

One acts decisively only in the conviction that all the angels are on one side and all the devils on the other.” (pp. 127 – 134.)

The cynically amoral and polarised rhetorical pattern, sadly, is instantly recognisable from the tactics commonly used to oppose design thought in the public and in the policy making arena.

It even creeps into Faculty Seminar rooms and scientific institutions. But, in the end, if we begin to think and act like this, it will do no one any good.

Far better, is to take the stance of Aristotle, where one studies rhetoric for self-defense, to the intent of exposing evil counsel, and calling the public and policy makers to a better way: building bridges, not walls.

It is high time that the debates over design theory and thought moved on beyond the destructive rhetoric of the trifecta fallacy: red herring subject-changing distractors, led away to caricatured and deceitful strawman misrepresentations of design thought, soaked in ad hominem false accusations and ignited through snide or incendiary rhetoric.

For, if such rhetoric and incivility are unchecked, the temporary advantage of clouding issues, poisoning and polarising the atmosphere will be bought at the bitter price of a breakdown of our character and the foundational mutual respect that is needed if we are to build a future worth having.

Materialists and fellow travellers: victory at any price may be bought at a price so dear as to be ruinous. END

_________

F/N: News, in a new post, highlights a key example of the unfortunate red herring, strawman, ad hominem distortions we discussed above, in this case, from P Z Myers. And, as for the comments section . . .

Comments
Upright Biped (#26)
Now, before people, it is claimed that inanimate matter (being acted upon only by physical law and random unguided forces) was able to accomplish the task of recording abstractions of discrete objects and embedding those abstractions into a discrete material medium by the use of repeating chemical symbols. Those symbols are then decoded in a linear fashion in order to re- created the physical state of the original objects from the information contained in the abstractions.
Perhaps ID proponents are claiming that. I am not, and I clearly disagree with such a claim. There is nothing abstract about DNA. It is no more abstract than are the cogs (gear teeth) in the gearbox of my car.Neil Rickert
May 31, 2011
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I think that's quite possible, kairosfocus, but I still think it's a completely irrelevant metric by which to judge Darwin's theory as a scientific theory. "Darwinists" have been in the forefront of work that has tended to demonstrate not how different "races" are genetically, but how similar. There is no genetic hint of speciation within homo sapiens. However, Darwinism also predicts that racism could result in stratification, and possibly speciation, in the distant future. So we can take a strong anti-racist argument from Darwinism as well. But neither that lesson (which may or may not be valid) nor the one Hitler (if he did) drew has the slightest bearing on whether Darwin's theory was good science. Only data can tell us that. (haven't forgotten your other OP :))Elizabeth Liddle
May 31, 2011
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Dr Liddle: I have a moment. The Theories of Relativity only implied that matter and energy were likely to be interconvertible under appropriate circumstances, having to do with nuclear fission or fusion, moving up or down the binding energy per nucleon curve. Unfortunately, the force of Darwin's words in Descent, were that the so-called more advanced races would push the so-called less advanced (evolutionarily) ones to extinction. Having made that prediction Darwin simply went on to his next point on gappiness of the fossil record, as though he had not highlighted a major moral hazard. You may want to know that a delegation of the Manhattan Project physicists tried to get the bomb only used for a demonstration sufficient to get the Japanese to surrender. Unfortunately, some of the top boys suppressed that. What I am speaking of is the issue of moral deadening in the face of a major moral hazard. At least Wells tried to warn. He was ignored in the rush to think that we were evolving as the favoured races survived at the expense of the less favoured in the Malthusian struggle for life. That is the context in which Darwinism contributed to the climate in which Hitler operated. There is a major science and society ethical issue here that needs to be honestly faced, along with the related eugenics activities, for want of a better word. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 31, 2011
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Hello Dr Liddle,
That’s actually quite a good example of what I meant when I said that that “one person’s “subject-changing distractor” can be the other person’s “getting to the nub of the issue”.” I’m sure that from your PoV you see it as an absolutely key question.
My response was directly related to the comment made by Neil, which I copied and pasted. Surely responding on topic to a direct comment is fair game in everyone’s book, no?
To a “Darwinist”, you appear to have embedded a key ID assumption into your question: “can embed into a medium (by the implementation of chemical code) an abstraction of a discrete object”, and it is that assumption itself that we query.
The mapping of nucleic triplets to amino acids is an observable reality. Both modern biology and evolutionary theory are themselves based upon the reality that these mappings between discrete objects exist.
I don’t think that “an abstraction of a discrete object” “embed[ded] into a medium by the implementation of a chemical code” is a good description of what DNA does.
You are welcome to make your case, but I think Marshal Nirenberg would be out of luck if the facts were otherwise.
I regard DNA as a catalyst that faciilitates a series of chemical reactions. So for me, the question answers itself.
Under that scenario, a shipmate using a signal lamp to say “hello” to a passing vessel is no more than a catalyst that facilitates a series of chemical reactions. The proof is in the assumption that it must be true. The fact that the symbols used to make the exchange are not observed to be a product of physical law - is simply assumed away.
I don’t ask you to agree, but do you see why the conversation is potentially difficult? It’s like those Vietnam talks that used to stall over the shape of the table. It seemed trivial, but, of course, it was crucial. Until we agree where our differences lie, we don’t have much hope of resolving them.
Agreed.Upright BiPed
May 31, 2011
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11:11 AM
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I’m not sure what is being asked there. I don’t think of people as being “inanimate matter.”
Neil, there haven't always been people. People came later. Now, before people, it is claimed that inanimate matter (being acted upon only by physical law and random unguided forces) was able to accomplish the task of recording abstractions of discrete objects and embedding those abstractions into a discrete material medium by the use of repeating chemical symbols. Those symbols are then decoded in a linear fashion in order to re- created the physical state of the original objects from the information contained in the abstractions. My question to you is what physical evidence do you have that this is even possible by the means it is claimed to have accomplished it? In other words, if the rise symbolic abstractions are known to be a property of matter (being acted upon by chance and physical law) then a presentation of that knowledge should be available in order to refute the design inference. If that evidence is not available, then the design inference remains validated by the observations as they really are. The unrefuted fact from all recorded knowledge is that an act of intelligent agency is the only verifiable source of such abstractions – and there isn’t a shred of physical evidence which suggest they can come about from anything else. So I can answer the question myself. You have no such evidence to the contrary. None, whatsoever. Neil, perhaps instead of making emotional pleas regarding “0% evidence”, you should take the time to research exactly what it is you are talking about.Upright BiPed
May 31, 2011
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Upright BiPed:
What physical evidence do you have that inanimate matter (acted upon by physical law and unguided forces) can embed into a medium (by the implementation of chemical code) an abstraction of a discrete object.
That's actually quite a good example of what I meant when I said that that "one person’s “subject-changing distractor” can be the other person’s “getting to the nub of the issue”." I'm sure that from your PoV you see it as an absolutely key question. From my PoV, though, see it as, if not a "subject-changing distractor", a question that begs itself. This probably isn't the thread to unpack it, as it's a thread about what results in polarisation of arguments, not about the content of the arguments, but briefly, inasmuch as it may make my point: To a "Darwinist", you appear to have embedded a key ID assumption into your question: "can embed into a medium (by the implementation of chemical code) an abstraction of a discrete object", and it is that assumption itself that we query. I don't think that "an abstraction of a discrete object" "embed[ded] into a medium by the implementation of a chemical code" is a good description of what DNA does. I regard DNA as a catalyst that faciilitates a series of chemical reactions. So for me, the question answers itself. I don't ask you to agree, but do you see why the conversation is potentially difficult? It's like those Vietnam talks that used to stall over the shape of the table. It seemed trivial, but, of course, it was crucial. Until we agree where our differences lie, we don't have much hope of resolving them. However, I don't think it's impossible to reach mutual agreement as to where the differences lie, but I do think it's important to do that, and is the best defense against mutual (probably sincere, if misguided) accusations of evasiveness.Elizabeth Liddle
May 31, 2011
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10:22 AM
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Upright Biped (#23)
What physical evidence do you have that inanimate matter (acted upon by physical law and unguided forces) can embed into a medium (by the implementation of chemical code) an abstraction of a discrete object.
I'm not sure what is being asked there. I don't think of people as being "inanimate matter."Neil Rickert
May 31, 2011
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10:09 AM
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The arguments for ID are 100% appeals to the emotions, and 0% evidence.
Neil… LOL … “0% evidence” A substance-free yet powerfully emotive defense Neil - well done. One can imagine a kettle drum at the end for effect. May I ask? What physical evidence do you have that inanimate matter (acted upon by physical law and unguided forces) can embed into a medium (by the implementation of chemical code) an abstraction of a discrete object. ? Now Neil, ask me that same question, but instead of “physical law and unguided forces”, replace that with physical law and volitional agency.Upright BiPed
May 31, 2011
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kairosfocus (#10)
let him simply provide a good point by point rebuttal to the IOSE
I am seeing a lot of rhetoric, but little content at those links. I readily admit that the problem of origins is unsolved. It should not be presented as settled science. I see some arguments there about methodological naturalism. Personally, I have never seen a need for that assumption. For ID to become science, it needs to develop some clear empirical criteria, and it needs to demonstrate that those criteria can be applied in a systematic way by multiple researchers with reliable results. When it reaches that point, and when the use of those criteria proves useful, there won't be any difficulty getting scientists to take it seriously.Neil Rickert
May 31, 2011
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bornagain77:
...than you guys would like to let on
Polarizing phraseology spotted :) Seriously, it works both ways.Elizabeth Liddle
May 31, 2011
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cont. I find it extremely interesting, and strange, that quantum mechanics tells us that instantaneous quantum wave collapse to its 'uncertain' 3-D state is centered on each individual observer in the universe, whereas, 4-D space-time cosmology (General Relativity) tells us each 3-D point in the universe is central to the expansion of the universe. These findings of modern science are pretty much exactly what we would expect to see if this universe were indeed created, and sustained, from a higher dimension by a omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal Being who knows everything that is happening everywhere in the universe at the same time. These findings certainly seem to go to the very heart of the age old question asked of many parents by their children, “How can God hear everybody’s prayers at the same time?”,,, i.e. Why should the expansion of the universe, or the quantum wave collapse of the entire universe, even care that you or I, or anyone else, should exist? Only Theism offers a rational explanation as to why you or I, or anyone else, should have such undeserved significance in such a vast universe: Psalm 33:13-15 The LORD looks from heaven; He sees all the sons of men. From the place of His dwelling He looks on all the inhabitants of the earth; He fashions their hearts individually; He considers all their works. The expansion of every 3D point in the universe, and the quantum wave collapse of the entire universe to each point of conscious observation in the universe, is obviously a very interesting congruence in science between the very large (relativity) and the very small (quantum mechanics). A congruence that Physicists, and Mathematicians, seem to be having a extremely difficult time 'unifying' into a 'theory of everything'.(Einstein, Penrose). The conflict of reconciling General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics appears to arise from the inability of either theory to successfully deal with the Zero/Infinity problem that crops up in different places of each theory: THE MYSTERIOUS ZERO/INFINITY Excerpt: The biggest challenge to today's physicists is how to reconcile general relativity and quantum mechanics. However, these two pillars of modern science were bound to be incompatible. "The universe of general relativity is a smooth rubber sheet. It is continuous and flowing, never sharp, never pointy. Quantum mechanics, on the other hand, describes a jerky and discontinuous universe. What the two theories have in common - and what they clash over - is zero.",, "The infinite zero of a black hole -- mass crammed into zero space, curving space infinitely -- punches a hole in the smooth rubber sheet. The equations of general relativity cannot deal with the sharpness of zero. In a black hole, space and time are meaningless.",, "Quantum mechanics has a similar problem, a problem related to the zero-point energy. The laws of quantum mechanics treat particles such as the electron as points; that is, they take up no space at all. The electron is a zero-dimensional object,,, According to the rules of quantum mechanics, the zero-dimensional electron has infinite mass and infinite charge. http://www.fmbr.org/editoral/edit01_02/edit6_mar02.htm Yet, the unification, into a 'theory of everything', between what is in essence the 'infinite Theistic world of Quantum Mechanics' and the 'finite Materialistic world of the space-time of General Relativity' seems to be directly related to what Jesus apparently joined together with His resurrection, i.e. related to the unification of infinite God with finite man. Dr. William Dembski in this following comment, though not directly addressing the Zero/Infinity conflict in General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, offers insight into this 'unification' of the infinite and the finite: The End Of Christianity - Finding a Good God in an Evil World - Pg.31 William Dembski PhD. Mathematics Excerpt: "In mathematics there are two ways to go to infinity. One is to grow large without measure. The other is to form a fraction in which the denominator goes to zero. The Cross is a path of humility in which the infinite God becomes finite and then contracts to zero, only to resurrect and thereby unite a finite humanity within a newfound infinity." http://www.designinference.com/documents/2009.05.end_of_xty.pdf Moreover there actually is physical evidence that lends strong support to the position that the 'Zero/Infinity conflict', we find between General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, was successfully dealt with by Christ: The Center Of The Universe Is Life - General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy and The Shroud Of Turin - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/5070355 Turin Shroud Enters 3D Age - Pictures, Articles and Videos https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1gDY4CJkoFedewMG94gdUk1Z1jexestdy5fh87RwWAfg Turin Shroud 3-D Hologram - Face And Body - Dr. Petrus Soons - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/5889891/ A Quantum Hologram of Christ's Resurrection? by Chuck Missler Excerpt: “You can read the science of the Shroud, such as total lack of gravity, lack of entropy (without gravitational collapse), no time, no space—it conforms to no known law of physics.” The phenomenon of the image brings us to a true event horizon, a moment when all of the laws of physics change drastically. Dame Piczek created a one-fourth size sculpture of the man in the Shroud. When viewed from the side, it appears as if the man is suspended in mid air (see graphic, below), indicating that the image defies previously accepted science. The phenomenon of the image brings us to a true event horizon, a moment when all of the laws of physics change drastically. http://www.khouse.org/articles/2008/847 "Miracles do not happen in contradiction to nature, but only in contradiction to that which is known to us of nature." St. Augustine Philippians 2: 5-11 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. While I agree with a criticism, from a Christian, that was leveled against the preceding Shroud of Turin video, that God indeed needed no help from the universe in the resurrection event of Christ since all things are possible with God, I am none-the-less very happy to see that what is considered the number one problem of Physicists and Mathematicians in physics today, of a 'unification into a theory of everything' for what is in essence the finite world of General Relativity and the infinite world of Quantum Mechanics, does in fact seem to find a successful resolution for 'unification' within the resurrection event of Jesus Christ Himself. It seems almost overwhelmingly apparent to me from the 'scientific evidence' we now have that Christ literally ripped a hole in the finite entropic space-time of this universe to reunite infinite God with finite man. That modern science would even offer such a almost tangible glimpse into the mechanics of what happened in the tomb of Christ should be a source of great wonder and comfort for the Christian heart. Psalms 16:10 because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay. It is also interesting to note that 'higher dimensional' mathematics had to be developed before Einstein could elucidate General Relativity, or even before Quantum Mechanics could be elucidated; The Mathematics Of Higher Dimensionality – Gauss & Riemann – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6199520/ 3D to 4D shift - Carl Sagan - video with notes Excerpt from Notes: The state-space of quantum mechanics is an infinite-dimensional function space. Some physical theories are also by nature high-dimensional, such as the 4-dimensional general relativity. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VS1mwEV9wA I think it should be fairly clear by now that, much contrary to the mediocrity of earth and of humans brought about by the heliocentric discoveries of Galileo and Copernicus, the findings of modern science are very comforting to Theistic postulations in general, and even lends strong support of plausibility to the main tenet of Christianity which holds Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God. Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and upon earth."bornagain77
May 31, 2011
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Elizabet DrBOT, actually this 'centrality' plays out in a far more interesting way than you guys would like to let on: ,,, First I noticed that the earth demonstrates centrality in the universe in this video Dr. Dembski posted a while back; The Known Universe - Dec. 2009 - a very cool video (please note the centrality of the earth in the universe) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17jymDn0W6U ,,, for a while I tried to see if the 4-D space-time of General Relativity was sufficient to explain centrality we witness for the earth in the universe,,, 4-Dimensional Space-Time Of General Relativity - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3991873/ ,,, yet I kept running into the same problem for establishing the sufficiency of General Relativity to explain our centrality in this universe, in that every time I would perform a 'mental experiment' of trying radically different points of observation in the universe, General Relativity would fail to maintain centrality for the radically different point of observation in the universe. The primary reason for this failure of General Relativity to maintain centrality, for different points of observation in the universe, is due to the fact that there are limited (10^80) material particles to work with. Though this failure of General Relativity was obvious to me, I needed more proof so as to establish it more rigorously, so i dug around a bit and found this; The Cauchy Problem In General Relativity - Igor Rodnianski Excerpt: 2.2 Large Data Problem In General Relativity - While the result of Choquet-Bruhat and its subsequent refinements guarantee the existence and uniqueness of a (maximal) Cauchy development, they provide no information about its geodesic completeness and thus, in the language of partial differential equations, constitutes a local existence. ,,, More generally, there are a number of conditions that will guarantee the space-time will be geodesically incomplete.,,, In the language of partial differential equations this means an impossibility of a large data global existence result for all initial data in General Relativity. http://www.icm2006.org/proceedings/Vol_III/contents/ICM_Vol_3_22.pdf and also 'serendipitously' found this,,, THE GOD OF THE MATHEMATICIANS - DAVID P. GOLDMAN - August 2010 Excerpt: Gödel's personal God is under no obligation to behave in a predictable orderly fashion, and Gödel produced what may be the most damaging critique of general relativity. In a Festschrift, (a book honoring Einstein), for Einstein's seventieth birthday in 1949, Gödel demonstrated the possibility of a special case in which, as Palle Yourgrau described the result, "the large-scale geometry of the world is so warped that there exist space-time curves that bend back on themselves so far that they close; that is, they return to their starting point." This means that "a highly accelerated spaceship journey along such a closed path, or world line, could only be described as time travel." In fact, "Gödel worked out the length and time for the journey, as well as the exact speed and fuel requirements." Gödel, of course, did not actually believe in time travel, but he understood his paper to undermine the Einsteinian worldview from within. http://www.faqs.org/periodicals/201008/2080027241.html But if General Relativity is insufficient to explain the centrality we witness for ourselves in the universe, what else is? Universal Quantum wave collapse to each unique point of observation! To prove this point I dug around a bit and found this experiment,,, This following experiment extended the double slit experiment to show that the 'spooky actions', for instantaneous quantum wave collapse, happen regardless of any considerations for time or distance i.e. The following experiment shows that quantum actions are 'universal and instantaneous': Wheeler's Classic Delayed Choice Experiment: Excerpt: Now, for many billions of years the photon is in transit in region 3. Yet we can choose (many billions of years later) which experimental set up to employ – the single wide-focus, or the two narrowly focused instruments. We have chosen whether to know which side of the galaxy the photon passed by (by choosing whether to use the two-telescope set up or not, which are the instruments that would give us the information about which side of the galaxy the photon passed). We have delayed this choice until a time long after the particles "have passed by one side of the galaxy, or the other side of the galaxy, or both sides of the galaxy," so to speak. Yet, it seems paradoxically that our later choice of whether to obtain this information determines which side of the galaxy the light passed, so to speak, billions of years ago. So it seems that time has nothing to do with effects of quantum mechanics. And, indeed, the original thought experiment was not based on any analysis of how particles evolve and behave over time – it was based on the mathematics. This is what the mathematics predicted for a result, and this is exactly the result obtained in the laboratory. http://www.bottomlayer.com/bottom/basic_delayed_choice.htm ,, and to make universal quantum Wave collapse much more 'personal' I found this,,, "It was not possible to formulate the laws (of quantum theory) in a fully consistent way without reference to consciousness." Eugene Wigner (1902 -1995) from his collection of essays "Symmetries and Reflections – Scientific Essays"; Eugene Wigner laid the foundation for the theory of symmetries in quantum mechanics, for which he received the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1963. http://eugene-wigner.co.tv/ Here is the key experiment that led Wigner to his Nobel Prize winning work on quantum symmetries: Eugene Wigner Excerpt: To express this basic experience in a more direct way: the world does not have a privileged center, there is no absolute rest, preferred direction, unique origin of calendar time, even left and right seem to be rather symmetric. The interference of electrons, photons, neutrons has indicated that the state of a particle can be described by a vector possessing a certain number of components. As the observer is replaced by another observer (working elsewhere, looking at a different direction, using another clock, perhaps being left-handed), the state of the very same particle is described by another vector, obtained from the previous vector by multiplying it with a matrix. This matrix transfers from one observer to another. http://www.reak.bme.hu/Wigner_Course/WignerBio/wb1.htm i.e. In the experiment the 'world' (i.e. the universe) does not have a ‘privileged center’. Yet strangely, the conscious observer does exhibit a 'privileged center'. This is since the 'matrix', which determines which vector will be used to describe the particle in the experiment, is 'observer-centric' in its origination! Thus explaining Wigner’s dramatic statement, “It was not possible to formulate the laws (of quantum theory) in a fully consistent way without reference to consciousness.”bornagain77
May 31, 2011
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Good catch, bornagain77 :) Yes, of course, the earth is indeed at the dead centre of "our" known universe - the universe, in other words, knowable to people standing on earth! But to anyone standing on a different planet, that planet would also be at the centre of their known universe! How far we can see depends on the speed limit of information, and that's going to limit us to a sphere centred on where we are currently standing. Which is, of course, here :) But my point re Hitler still stands, I think.Elizabeth Liddle
May 31, 2011
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BA, If I create a map of the world based on what I can observe from my house then my house will appear to be at the centre of the world.DrBot
May 31, 2011
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Elizabeth: as to this comment: 'Ptolemy’s geocentric celestial system was no less false because it was used to support Christianity' and yet please note the centrality of the earth in the universe in the following video: The Known Universe - Dec. 2009 - a very cool video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17jymDn0W6Ubornagain77
May 31, 2011
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It might help to have the full quote:
The great break in the organic chain between man and his nearest allies, which cannot be bridged over by any extinct or living species, has often been advanced as a grave objection to the belief that man is descended from some lower form; but this objection will not appear of much weight to those who, convinced by general reasons, believe in the general principle of evolution. Breaks incessantly occur in all parts of the series, some being wide, sharp and defined, others less so in various degrees; as between the orang and its nearest allies—between the Tarsius and the other Lemuridæ —between the elephant and in a more striking manner between the Ornithorhynchus or Echidna, and other mammals. But all these breaks depend merely on the number of related forms which have become extinct. At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace throughout the world the savage races. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes, as Professor Schaaffhausen has remarked, will no doubt be exterminated. The break will then be rendered wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilised state, as we may hope, than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as at present between the negro or Australian and the gorilla.
At some point in the future earth will almost certainly be hit by a large asteroid and many people will die. Of course I could be wrong, but by stating that am I endorsing the killing of humans by means of an asteroid?
And the full title of Darwin’s book???? ‘The Preservation of Favoured Races
Indeed, and Darwin refers, amongst other things, to: "the several races, for instance, of the cabbage ..."DrBot
May 31, 2011
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Elizabeth states: 'Einstein’s theory is no less true because it was used to devise an atomic bomb, and Ptolemy’s geocentric celestial system was no less false because it was used to support Christianity. So to disparage Darwin because of Hitler is a genuine ad hominem fallacy.' Besides Darwinism being ridiculously false as to science, there is actually a fairly direct connection between Darwinian thinking and the holocaust, as is clearly illustrated by Weikart's book 'From Darwin To Hitler"; From Darwin to Hitler - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_5EwYpLD6A In fact you don't have to dig too far to find the connection, between Darwinism and the holocaust, for Darwin himself in his book prophetically states: 'At some future period not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes…will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest Allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilised state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as the baboon, instead of as now between the Negro or Australian and the gorilla (1874, p. 178).' Simply horrendous!!! And the full title of Darwin's book???? 'The Preservation of Favoured Races That’s the subtitle of Darwin’s book On the Origin of Species. It’s full title is On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life. And his next book was titled The Descent of Man, one entire chapter was dedicated to “The Races of Man.”bornagain77
May 31, 2011
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kairosfocus: yes, I take your point re facts that are so well corroborated that we can pretty well bank them. However, in the biological sciences, and, increasingly, in a great many sciences, when we measure things we are looking at quite remote proxies for a "direct" measurement (scare quotes because I'm reluctant to accord any measurement "direct", but for all practical purposes, some can be fairly regarded as so!) This is related, of course, to the issue of accuracy vs precision. We can produce highly precise data, and assume that because we have very narrow confidence in our measurements we can treat them as raw "fact". However, we can be systematically wrong if the model on which our data is constructed in the first place is flawed in some way. And I'm just banging on about this because I have witnessed (and contributed to!) heated arguments in which each side has accused the other of lying about (or, typically "fudging") the data, and the other side has insisted that what they have done is simply routine outlier removal, or adjustment for baseline noise levels. So, while we are not entitled to our own facts, we are entitled to make a reasoned argument, sometimes, about what constitutes a fact. And good people can disagree as to the soundness of that argument.Elizabeth Liddle
May 31, 2011
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Elizabeth Liddle @ 11 My feelings exactly. It is an unfortunate fact that many despots from history have co-opted fragments of scientific and religious ideas and distorted them to suit their needs. Hitler used both science and religion to construct his ideological position. I do research into artificial intelligence, someone could potentially take an aspect of my research and twist it to suit an ideological goal but that does not mean that my research is wrong, or that I endorse the ideology.DrBot
May 31, 2011
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Re Hitler: whether Hitler was influenced by Darwin's theory or not seems to me utterly irrelevant to whether Darwin's theory is true or not. Einstein's theory is no less true because it was used to devise an atomic bomb, and Ptolemy's geocentric celestial system was no less false because it was used to support Christianity. So to disparage Darwin because of Hitler is a genuine ad hominem fallacy. Morality and ethics do not depend on Darwin's ideas being true or false, nor does theism, or, indeed atheism. All that matters in a scientific theory is how well it fits the data.Elizabeth Liddle
May 31, 2011
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Onlookers: Please, take time to peruse the way that Lewontin's thought -- and notice how he identifies it as dominant in institutional science -- has pervaded the likes of the US NAS and NSTA. There is a reason why in the IOSE summary page, I gave two personal cites and two institutional ones, before citing a key rebuttal. This is not merely a matter of the oddities of one individual's thought that can be brushed aside by saying you personally differ. Second, I suggest to Dr Bot that he needs to actually look at the line of ideas descent from Darwin through Haeckel and co to Hitler, instead of thinking that one table talk clip out of that wider context will suffice to get rid of the force of what Hitler said and did on the record. Please, do not force me to sully this thread by citing Hitler's remarks on the record as linked (and note the anticipation in Wells, and the anticipation in Darwin). The implications were foreseen since 1870, and the implications of the radical scientism that was rising were seen in Heine's 1831 prophecy. As to Mr Rickert's turnabout rhetorical tactic, that sort of empty-headed debate stunt -- and this is one of those cases where a corrective rebuke is well warranted, as that specific trick was identified and corrected in advance in the original post -- inadvertently underscores exactly the problem that I have discussed in the original post. If he thinks that the design inference is just a matter of emotional manipulations and blindly following authorities in pursuit of a nefarious socio-cultural agenda, let him simply provide a good point by point rebuttal to the IOSE, starting here, and going on through the units until it addresses the science and society issues here. G'day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 31, 2011
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I have a lot of respect for Lewontin as a scientist. But I disagree with his statement that you quoted. In particular, I do not make an a priori commitment to materialism. And I expect that there are many scientists who do not make such an a priori commitment.
I totally agree and would count myself as one of those Scientists. Lewontin is entitled to his opinion but I am under no obligation to agree and I don't know any scientist who would regard his opinion as doctrine.
Personally, I find it quite distasteful to call somebod “willfully deceptive.”
Yes, accusing your opponents of lying is always uncivil. Providing clear evidence of an intentional deception is another issue though!DrBot
May 31, 2011
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Now, of course, as clever ad men and smart politicians have long since known, the most persuasive form of argument is the appeal to our emotions and underlying perceptions.
Yes, you have nailed it. The arguments for ID are 100% appeals to the emotions, and 0% evidence. Your entire post is an appeal to the emotions.
For, if clever but willfully deceptive rhetors ...
Personally, I find it quite distasteful to call somebod "willfully deceptive." However, since you are making an appeal to the emotions, I guess anything goes.
This last is why, in his 1997 NYRB review of Sagan’s last book, Lewontin notoriously said: ...
I have a lot of respect for Lewontin as a scientist. But I disagree with his statement that you quoted. In particular, I do not make an a priori commitment to materialism. And I expect that there are many scientists who do not make such an a priori commitment.
As in: fallacy of the question-begging materialist assumption and the resulting materialism-indoctrinated, closed mind presented under false colours of science, anyone?
That surely looks like an appeal to the emotions.Neil Rickert
May 31, 2011
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If we would simply stop this nonsense and deal with issues on the merits, we would actually make progress.
Agreed. And briefly on Darwin and Hitler, the Nazis listed Darwins works as books to be burnt:
Writings of a philosophical and social nature whose content deals with the false scientific enlightenment of primitive Darwinism and Monism (Häckel).
A translation of Guidelines from Die Bücherei 2:6 (1935), p. 279 Hitler seemingly objected to the idea of common descent and the idea that Humans could have evolved from other animals by a gradual process. It seems he thought that evolution couldn't make these large jumps from one island of function to another:
Whence do we get the right to believe, that from the very beginning Man was not what he is today? Looking at Nature tells us, that in the realm of plants and animals changes and developments happen. But nowhere inside a kind shows such a development as the breadth of the jump, as Man must supposedly have made, if he has developed from an ape-like state to what he is today.(Hitler’s Table Talk)
Personally I think trying to make arguments about the validity or not of evolution by invoking historical monsters like this is an unplesant distraction and does nothing to address the scientific issues at hand.DrBot
May 31, 2011
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Dr Liddle, The key issue is warrant. Facts become credible as facts when they are warranted to the relevant degree of certainty. This can be seen from the directly linked discussion:
fact [fækt] n 1. an event or thing known to have happened or existed 2. a truth verifiable from experience or observation 3. a piece of information get me all the facts of this case 4. (Law) Law (often plural) an actual event, happening, etc., as distinguished from its legal consequences. Questions of fact are decided by the jury, questions of law by the court or judge 5. (Philosophy) Philosophy a proposition that may be either true or false, as contrasted with an evaluative statement (Law) after (or before) the fact Criminal law after (or before) the commission of the offence an accessory after the fact as a matter of fact, in fact, in point of fact in reality or actuality fact of life an inescapable truth, esp an unpleasant one the fact of the matter the truth [from Latin factum something done, from factus made, from facere to make] factful adj Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003
If we race off to infinity in a regress of claims and counter claims, we end up with intellectual paralysis. (I highly recommend a reading of Greenleaf's vol I Ch 1 on on evidence as an antidote to much of modern thought. I was very happy to finally find this at Project Gutenberg.) I am of course very aware as an applied physicist that the facts of observation are sometimes subject to change, but the basic context is that we have warrant to moral certainty as a criterion whereby it is irresponsible to act as though certain facts are not credible enough to accept as true. And, in physics, there is such a thing as a hierarchy of facts that are trusted, i.e we trusted good eyeball mark I [Brahe's work was astonishingly good BTW], before the deliverances of telescopes were fully trusted -- and the establishing of optics on a theoretical foundation was key in that. This was a subtext in the debates over Galileo, and chromatic aberrations are a significant issue, not to mention just plain issues on quality of optics. Let's say Newton's reflector was invented to get around the dispersive medium problem that refractors face. Now we take the 'scope as a tool of observation. And then when photogtraphy and now CCD sensors were introduced, we brought in whole rafts of empirically reliable tested layers, that built up a considerable hierarchy of layers to the actual raw physical events. But, once we have good warrant to moral certainty, we have something good enough. If you were to think about what lies beneath accepting the tracks in a bubble or cloud chamber as pictures of particle events [relying on locally triggered phase changes tracing to cascades of events rooted in the passage of a particle . . . typically with a B-field to curl the path of charged particles and the Lorentz force law as a metric for speed in the spiral], that would be another case in point. And yes, an MRI or other imaging scanner is like that, only moreso. In my IOSE course (I am snipping my work elsewhere to save writing effort) the issues of warrant are addressed in an earlier module, on ideas. More generally, though, I point out that we have such things as self evident truths undeniable on pain of patent absurdity, and which serve as credible foundations for thinking. I discuss this here, you can start with the claim: error exists. My onward point is that models and theories are explanatory constructs and so are inherently inferences to best explanation, so are warranted relative to facts and things based on first principles of right reason. Trust this helps. Again, I appreciate the civility and constructiveness of your comment. And, thanks for the kind words. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 31, 2011
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JJ: Pardon, but we were not born yesterday. We know just what Ms Forrest of the NCSE and Louisiana Humanists has been saying in the teeth of repeated corrections, we have Mr Dawkins on long record, we have the copycat ruling on ACLU/NCSE talking points at Dover, we have the Gaskell and Beckwith/Synthese cases in hand just now and a much longer list on the slaughter of the dissidents. And, you are talking here to someone who just had to deal with a cluster of slanders up to and including false accusation of homosexuality, indeed that the UD is a nest of homosexuals. As to the connexion from Darwin to Haeckel et al and onward to Hitler, it may be hotly denied by Darwinists, with personal attacks on those who beg to differ, but the line of ideas descent is unmistakable, once you actually read the relevant parts of Mein Kampf, Darwin's Descent of Man Chs 5 - 7 (decode: celts = Irish, Scots are obvious and Saxons = English). Especially if you read this against the backdrop of the warnings given in H G Wells' War of the Worlds, introduction. So, your turnabout accusation attempt fails on the demonstrable history of ideas facts that, sadly, turned Wells into a prophet. The persistent refusal to face this easily demonstrated fact of history -- acknowledged at Auschwitz by the way -- and the attempt to discredit those so rude as to point out an inconvenient truth on this matter [go, look up the history of modern eugenics, and how it fed into Hitler's games; start with the article here, noting the logo for the 2nd international congress on eugenics], is itself a grim warning of what we are dealing with. As a black man, with Irish ancestry (in common with Mrs O'Leary on that . . . ) you had better believe I am noticing this one. If you had stopped playing at deflect and turnabout into immoral equivalency long enough to notice what I wrote under Alinsky's rule 4, you would have seen that I definitely am aware that the Alinsky disease is catching. But I take strong exception to your attempt to equalise blame: career busting, slander, outing behaviour, a habitual disrespect and rudeness that have forced blogs supportive of design theory to either moderate or descend into the cesspit, perversion of justice by providing misleading submissions and by judges too lazy and/or closed minded to pay attention to the mere facts, and so on, are utterly of a different order from anything I have seen design theory advocates do. The US$ 125,000 award to Gaskell says I am right on this. So, please, stop the turnabout accusations, the distractions and dismissals of inconvenient facts, as well as the burning of conveniently set up strawmen. If we would simply stop this nonsense and deal with issues on the merits, we would actually make progress. that is why I have publicly commended Dr Liddle and EZ for their very different attitude. Good day sir GEM of TKI PS: Dr Liddle, sigh: see what I mean about distractions led out to misrepresentations and then lit afire with ad hominems? Anyway, let us get to serious matters.kairosfocus
May 31, 2011
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It might also be worth saying that one person’s “subject-changing distractor” can be the other person’s “getting to the nub of the issue”.
I totally agree :)DrBot
May 31, 2011
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It might also be worth saying that one person's "subject-changing distractor" can be the other person's "getting to the nub of the issue". Communication is Hard Work :)Elizabeth Liddle
May 31, 2011
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I would agree with most, probably all, of that. I'd just like to suggest a clarification of one point, though: In the "IOSE methods and tips" you quoted, a) segues into b) in a way that potentially makes a false categorisation. a) refers to "observations" and "measurements" while b) refers to "facts", the implication being that "observations" and "measurements" are "facts" and what we do is to fit our "models" to the "facts"> I suggest that a better way of thinking about the relationship between "facts" and "models" (or, as I would prefer, between "data", i.e. "what is given, and "models") is to think of data at one level being a model at the next, in a series of nested Russian dolls. And lest I am hounded from here as a post-modernist (honest guv! I'm not!), I do not at all deny that there is, at "bottom" real reality (excuse the tautoology). But all we can ever do is model it, whether at the level of sensory integration (the brain "models" sensory inputs as, for instance, objects, and this includes the sensory inputs we receive when we observe or "measure" something. Our data, in other words, is never truly "raw" - signal to noise enters the picture right from the beginning, and data reduction and signal amplification are a feature of our actual sensory and perceptual processes. And they, like all, models, often require tweaking. But this applies through the scientific process; for example I work in fMRI imaging, and for me, the "data" is the signal intensities that come of the scanner, reconstructed into a voxel-based brain image. However, to the physicists who actually run the scanner, my "data" is their "model" - the inference they make from electromagnetic signal, given the geometry of the gradients. In other words, at any given level, "data" is what is "given" i.e. input, and a "model" is the output. But the model at one level can appear as data in the next. So the old adage, which I've seen thrown in both directions in this, and other contentious debates, that "you are entitled to your opinion, but not to your own facts" is part of the problem. What one "side" treats as a "fact" or as "data" may be regarded by the other as an erroneous model. Neither side is (necessarily) being obtuse, dishonest, or inept. But the resulting clash can generate more heat than light :) And seep from logos into both ethos and pathos! The antidote (or one of them) is to constantly check downwards to see that we are not accumulating errors as we move from level to level. Good OP :)Elizabeth Liddle
May 31, 2011
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So let me summarize: those evil, sophistic Darwinists are the bad guys, using illegitimate rhetorical tactics and fallacies to malign the innocent and blameless ID proponents. But you can't be serious about such a caricature. Even a passing mention of O'Leary's constant harping on the "connection" between Darwin and Hitler or her constant characterizing of biology teachers and professors as "tax burdens" put the lie to this; Dembski's "street theater" comment also falsifies your claim. ID theorists are every bit as guilty and you ought to acknowledge this.JesseJoe
May 31, 2011
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