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Why KeithS’s bomb is a damp squib

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In this short post, I’d like to explain what’s wrong with KeithS’s argument for unguided evolution. The argument, in a nutshell, goes like this:

1. We observe objective nested hierarchies (ONH)
2. Unguided evolution explains ONH
3. A designer explains ONH, but also a trillion alternatives.
4. Both unguided evolution and a designer are capable of causing ONH.
Conclusion: Unguided evolution is a trillion times better at explaining ONH.

The first thing I’d like to point out is that while KeithS, in his post over at TSZ leans heavily on the evidence assembled by Dr. Douglas Theobald in his article, 29+ Evidences of Macroevolution, it is very odd that Dr. Theobald himself does not put forward this argument anywhere in his article. On the contrary, he expressly declares, in his reply to creationist Ashley Camp’s critique:

This is not to say that God could not have created species independently and miraculously, yet gradually. While there currently is absolutely no scientific evidence for such an idea, gradual Divine direction of evolution is indeed consistent and compatible with common descent.

It is possible for a theist to see the theory of common descent, and the hierarchy which it predicts, as a reflection of the Creator’s divine plan—much as Sir Isaac Newton saw his laws of motion, and the ellipses and parabolas which they predict, as evidence of the Creator’s hand in our universe…

In fact, no theological assumptions or arguments are made at all in the essay. The “29 Evidences” is not an argument against creation—it is the scientific argument for common descent, no more, no less…

I personally believe that an omnipotent, omniscient Creator could have created in any manner that he chose. For a theist, the pertinent question is not “what is an omnipotent Creator capable of?” but rather “how exactly did/does the Creator create?”. The first question is purely theological, and as such is left unaddressed in the “29 Evidences”; in contrast, the second question is one that science can answer (given the assumption of a Creator).

The second point I’d like to make – and here I’m basically restating a point that William J. Murray made earlier, in mathematical language – is that KeithS has misapplied Bayes’ Theorem, which states: P(A|B) = P(A).[P(B|A)/P(B)],
where A is a proposition and B is the supporting evidence,
P(A), the prior probability, is the initial degree of belief in A,
P(A|B), the conditional probability, is the degree of belief in A, having taken B into account, and
the quotient P(B|A)/P(B) represents the support B provides for A.

A better way of stating Bayes’ Theorem is to expand the denominator, P(B). We can say that P(B) is equal to [P(B|A).P(A))+(P(B|~A).P(~A)], since if B is true, then either A is also true or A is false (and thus ~A is true). Hence:
P(A|B) = [P(A).P(B|A)]/[P(B|A).P(A))+(P(B|~A).P(~A)]
Where P(~A) is the probability of the initial degree of belief against A, or 1-P(A)
P(B|~A) is the degree of belief in B, given that the proposition A is false.

The problem is that KeithS has conflated two hypotheses: the hypothesis of common descent (which is very well-supported by the evidence that objective nested hierarchies exist in living things), and the hypothesis of unguided design (which he also claims is well-supported by the evidence that objective nested hierarchies exist in living things).

The first hypothesis is indeed well-supported by the evidence, as the only known processes that specifically generate unique, nested, hierarchical patterns are branching evolutionary processes. The probability that any other process would generate such hierarchies is vanishingly low.

But if KeithS wishes to argue against intelligently guided evolution, then the two alternative hypotheses he needs to consider are not:
A: a branching evolutionary process (also known as a Markov process) generated the objective nested hierarchies we find in living things; and
~A: an Intelligent Designer generated these objective nested hierarchies,

but instead:

A: an unguided process generated the objective nested hierarchies we find in living things; and
~A: an intelligently guided process generated these objective nested hierarchies.

The point KeithS makes in his essay is that on hypothesis ~A, the likelihood of B (objective nested hierarchies in living things) is very low. However, it is also true that on hypothesis A, the likelihood of B is very low, as the vast majority of unguided processes don’t generate objective nested hierarchies.

My third point is that KeithS’s argument assumes that the genetic and morphological features on the basis of which living things are classified into objective nested hierarchies were generated by the same process as the (unguided, Markovian) processes which generates the branches in the hierarchies. This is unlikely, even on a standard evolutionary view: features take time to evolve, and therefore would presumably have appeared at some time subsequent to the branch nodes themselves. Thus it could well be the case that while unguided processes explain the existence of objective nested hierarchies in the living world, guided processes are required to explain some or all of the features in these hierarchies.

My fourth point is that KeithS’s exclusion of the origin of life from his argument limits the force of his conclusion. At most, he can argue that objective nested hierarchies are best explained by unguided processes; but that is not the same as saying that living things themselves are best explained by these processes, or that the origin of life is due to an unguided process.

Finally, I’d like to point out that KeithS’s argument against Dr. Douglas Axe is factually mistaken. Nowhere in his paper, “The Case Against a Neo-Darwinian Origin of Protein Folds” does Dr. Axe make the argument KeithS imputes to him.

My time at the Internet cafe is up, so I shall stop here.

Comments
So are you saying that homo neanderthalensis is the same species as homo sapiens? You do realize that by definition, neanderthalensis and sapiens are the names of the species and that entire field of evolutionary biology would disagree with you on that, right? But you probably know better. And as I said, the instructions have been passed on from generation to generation, with changes in them playing a big part in the divergence of species from their ancestors. Yes all humans follow virtually the same instructions, but the other species within our genus had slightly different instructions, and as you move further and further from our lineage, you see more an more variation in the instructions. This is the essence of evolution. You should do some more research on this whole biology thing before you get back to me. Bye nowAVS
November 6, 2014
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I must say after this discussion with AVS I can say with certainty, materialists absolutely believe in magic!Andre
November 6, 2014
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Where did the ancestors get the instructions from AVS?Andre
November 6, 2014
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If you're talking about Neanderthal..... I think you know as well as I do that they are not a different homo species, just another damn variation.... The had speech, art, complex structures and of course they could interbreed with us....... But you knew this already yet ignored it.....Andre
November 6, 2014
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We've inherited these instructions from our ancestors, with slight modifications over time. And they inherited them from their ancestors, also with slight modifications. This has gone on for the last few billion years, in the grand experiment of evolution and produced the variety of species we see, in the process. Have a nice day, maybe I'll check back with you when I get a chance.AVS
November 6, 2014
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First of all, what I said is exactly true. But here is where your one-track mind becomes the issue. You do realize there are other species under the genus homo right? Just because they are extinct, doesn’t mean we just ignore them. How quickly you forget that if we were alive 150,000 years ago we would have walked among a number of the other species within our genus. Humans are the tip of a long line of descendants, with many branches. Exactly where these branches are, is difficult to say, in fact the definition of species isn’t even nailed down yet. But we are working on it.AVS
November 6, 2014
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a single cell with the exact instructions on how to assemble. where did the instructions come from?Andre
November 6, 2014
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William J Murray:
Theobald states:
The only known processes that specifically generate unique, nested, hierarchical patterns are branching evolutionary processes.
The problem is that it is those very evolutionary processes that are under debate; you cannot assume evolutionary processes are either natural or designed.
William, As you know, we actually observe microevolution producing ONHs, and microevolution does not require designer intervention, as even most YECs acknowledge.
However, assuming natural forces can produce the nested hierarchy is not the same as assuming that a nested hierarchy is the only biological system configuration natural forces are capable of producing.
See my reply to vjtorley above.
Keith’s makes two entirely different sets of assumptions about the two categorical candidates. He assumes natural forces can produce the nested hierarchy configuration, and assumes that is the only configuration natural forces can produce.
I don't assume it. It is an empirical observation and an obvious consequence of gradual evolution with predominantly vertical inheritance.
On the design side, kieths assumes that design can produce the nested hierarchy configuration and trillions of other configurations.
Right, because we know absolutely nothing about the purported designer -- including whether or not he/she/it exists, or existed at the time. Any IDer who wishes to add assumptions to the design hypothesis, in order to narrow down those trillions of possibilities, must justify them.keith s
November 6, 2014
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How do you think you got here Andre? You were once a single cell. And actually there are molecules out there that can self-replciate, the origin of these molecules is another question in itself. Toodaloo for now.AVS
November 5, 2014
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AVS WHAT? hahahahahahahaha ok I give up.... if what you said was true there would be homo infinity .... instead homo sapiens only exist. Sure we have different colours, sizes heights but we are 100% exactly homo sapiens all you're describing is variation, who's arguing about that?Andre
November 5, 2014
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That post couldn't be a more perfect description of evolution, Andre. No organim's offspring is exactly identical to the original parent(s), this means that every single individual organism represents a single trial in evolution's search for new adaptations, solutions, or "ideas," whatever you want to call it. Think about it, every single organism that has ever lived was part of this never-ending experiment that is run by nature called evolution.AVS
November 5, 2014
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And where do those ribosomes come from? Built itself then? You are aware the idea that something can create itself is illogical right? to create yourself means you've existed before you've existed......Andre
November 5, 2014
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AVS We see no such thing........ that my friend is only in your imagination......Andre
November 5, 2014
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vjtorley:
1. We observe objective nested hierarchies (ONH)
kairosfocus:
Not quite, the homology/ resemblance implies relationship by descent principle even at gross level (eyes, wings etc) leads to “except where it doesn’t” and the diverse molecular trees undercut this claim.
No, they don't. The nested hierarchies inferred from the molecular and morphological data match to an astounding accuracy of 1 in 10^38. Read Theobald. vjtorley:
2. Unguided evolution explains ONH
kairosfocus:
Begs the question of origin of FSCO/I on blind chance + mechanical necessity, blah blah blah...
No, because we know that unguided microevolution produces ONHs, and you haven't been able to demonstrate the existence of a barrier that would prevent microevolution from turning into macroevolution. Also, your 'islands of function' argument is in tatters (link, link). vjtorley:
3. A designer explains ONH, but also a trillion alternatives.
kairosfocus:
The word trillion is patently put in to rhetorically counter the fact that there are now — thanks to the Internet — trillions of cases in point of the observed source of FSCO/I, design;
No, the word "trillions" comes into play because of the astounding match between nested hierarchies mentioned above. It's actually a significant understatement. I was being very conservative.
Multiplied by the radical attempt to question-beggingly redefine science on a priori materialism, warping its inferences on the past of origins through demanding that we substitute for the longstanding inference on natural [= chance plus necessity] vs the ART-ificial [= intelligently configured] spoken of by Plato and Newton alike, to natural vs supernatural. Where the latter is caricatured and dismissed as beyond science.
Um, KF -- I'm not a methodological naturalist. I think science is perfectly capable of handling supernatural claims, as long as they're testable. Oops.
Next, tree-patterns shaped by design constraints and purposes are a commonplace pattern of designs. That is the existence of a treelike pattern is empirically known to be a result of design.
KF, you don't have the slightest idea of what we are discussing here. There is a difference between nested hierarchies and objective nested hierarchies. Until you understand that, you have no hope of participating intelligently in this debate.
It is time for KS et al to do some serious re-thinking.
It is time for KF to learn about the argument he is supposedly trying to refute.keith s
November 5, 2014
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KF I think this article is for you :) "This is why the average person produces only a handful of ideas when brainstorming; whereas, a creative genius will produce great quantities of ideas. Thomas Edison, for example, created 3000 different ideas for a lighting system before he stepped back to evaluate them for practicality and profitability. All geniuses produce great quantities of ideas because they uncritically search for all possible alternatives. If you ask the average person to find a needle in a haystack, he or she will stop when they find a needle. Creative thinkers, on the other hand, will go through the entire haystack looking for all the possible needles." http://www.creativitypost.com/create/you_cant_create_something_out_of_nothing#sthash.epnjTmLw.dpuf Can unguided evolution really search the entire haystack for all possible needles?Andre
November 5, 2014
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But we see mindless processes build a whole organism from a single cell everyday, don't we? Transcription factors don't have minds, and neither do ribosomes or any other piece of cellular machinery, and yet here we are.AVS
November 5, 2014
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AVS The assumption that nothing (mindless processes) can build anything is your flaw...... Do you know what type of universe we live in AVS?Andre
November 5, 2014
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Again Andre, making another fatal flaw: comparing biological designs from adaptation, to the intelligent and conscious designs of humans. Apples and oranges my friend.AVS
November 5, 2014
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AVS The engineering of biology makes sense if there is an actual engineer, nothing engineers itself......Andre
November 5, 2014
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Vincent, Regarding your final points: You write:
My third point is that KeithS’s argument assumes that the genetic and morphological features on the basis of which living things are classified into objective nested hierarchies were generated by the same process as the (unguided, Markovian) processes which generates the branches in the hierarchies. This is unlikely, even on a standard evolutionary view: features take time to evolve, and therefore would presumably have appeared at some time subsequent to the branch nodes themselves.
I'm not sure why you think this is an issue. The taxa in a cladogram are always at the ends of the branches, never at the nodes.
Thus it could well be the case that while unguided processes explain the existence of objective nested hierarchies in the living world, guided processes are required to explain some or all of the features in these hierarchies.
It isn't enough to show that guided processes might be involved. You need to show that they must be involved, because otherwise you are still at the trillions-to-one disadvantage.
My fourth point is that KeithS’s exclusion of the origin of life from his argument limits the force of his conclusion. At most, he can argue that objective nested hierarchies are best explained by unguided processes; but that is not the same as saying that living things themselves are best explained by these processes, or that the origin of life is due to an unguided process.
I've never claimed that my argument is relevant to OOL, so that isn't a concern. It can't be relevant to OOL, because you can only get an objective nested hierarchy after OOL. And, as you know, IDers care very much about God's the Designer's involvement after OOL as well as before.
Finally, I’d like to point out that KeithS’s argument against Dr. Douglas Axe is factually mistaken. Nowhere in his paper, “The Case Against a Neo-Darwinian Origin of Protein Folds” does Dr. Axe make the argument KeithS imputes to him.
I addressed that here. You were looking at a different paper from the one I was criticizing.keith s
November 5, 2014
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The engineer of biology is the environment and the processes of evolution. And it's not magic, it's an awesome process that is extremely complex. You should look into it.AVS
November 5, 2014
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First of all it is never "one" scientist, and second, I said "almost infinitely complex." The devil is in the details my friend, pay attention to them.AVS
November 5, 2014
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Engineers never find a perfect solution either, the find the best solution....... Evolved together means what? The emerged? The Darwinian code world for magic happened!Andre
November 5, 2014
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The complex regulation of these systems is very difficult to tease apart, but in no way is it the "best solution." Evolution does not find the best solution, it finds slightly better solutions. Evolution builds on what is already present. Often in this case, processes can be regulated together because they have evolved from each other as we have already talked about. As I have also already said though, these process are very separate from each other and while they may have some overlap, they have evolved to carry out their own functions under certain conditions. Intertwining of the functions is a common occurrence in biology.AVS
November 5, 2014
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I'm not holding my breath that one of these finite scientists will ever be able to answer an infinitely complex question..... Are you?Andre
November 5, 2014
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The environment guides evolution? Oh brother....... then how did this "guided environment" build these stability control mechanisms? How did it "choose" the best solution? How did it know that if it lobbed apoptosis, necrosis and autophagy together it would have the answer to prevent unguided processes from happening? Do you really believe what you wrote? Are you sure?Andre
November 5, 2014
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How these systems evolved is an almost infinitely complex one question. But don't you worry, there are many scientists working on answering it as we speak.AVS
November 5, 2014
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Well like I said, evolution is not an "unguided process." It is guided by the environment. And like the paper you quoted said, lets say the environment lacks nutrients to support large amounts of bacteria. An individual bacterial cell that develops a mechanism that leads to its premature death would be favorable to the population of bacteria. And through horizontal gene transfer, the bacteria can share this early form of apoptosis with nearby bacteria. The population would evolve to have this apoptotic pathway present in their genome for use whenever conditions were unfavorable, allowing death of some portions of the population. Just an idea.AVS
November 5, 2014
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But your admittance
there are many cases of redundancy in cells
This begs the question? How did unguided evolution build not only a stability mechanism but multiple ones that are all self regulated but yet depend on each other?Andre
November 5, 2014
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AVS Thank you for stating my point..... I did not say if one fails the organism dies its when they all fail the organism dies..... That is why you have redundancy so that you're not dependant on just one single system but the multiple systems as a whole..... Engineering at work here nothing else!Andre
November 5, 2014
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