Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Why KeithS’s bomb is a damp squib

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In this short post, I’d like to explain what’s wrong with KeithS’s argument for unguided evolution. The argument, in a nutshell, goes like this:

1. We observe objective nested hierarchies (ONH)
2. Unguided evolution explains ONH
3. A designer explains ONH, but also a trillion alternatives.
4. Both unguided evolution and a designer are capable of causing ONH.
Conclusion: Unguided evolution is a trillion times better at explaining ONH.

The first thing I’d like to point out is that while KeithS, in his post over at TSZ leans heavily on the evidence assembled by Dr. Douglas Theobald in his article, 29+ Evidences of Macroevolution, it is very odd that Dr. Theobald himself does not put forward this argument anywhere in his article. On the contrary, he expressly declares, in his reply to creationist Ashley Camp’s critique:

This is not to say that God could not have created species independently and miraculously, yet gradually. While there currently is absolutely no scientific evidence for such an idea, gradual Divine direction of evolution is indeed consistent and compatible with common descent.

It is possible for a theist to see the theory of common descent, and the hierarchy which it predicts, as a reflection of the Creator’s divine plan—much as Sir Isaac Newton saw his laws of motion, and the ellipses and parabolas which they predict, as evidence of the Creator’s hand in our universe…

In fact, no theological assumptions or arguments are made at all in the essay. The “29 Evidences” is not an argument against creation—it is the scientific argument for common descent, no more, no less…

I personally believe that an omnipotent, omniscient Creator could have created in any manner that he chose. For a theist, the pertinent question is not “what is an omnipotent Creator capable of?” but rather “how exactly did/does the Creator create?”. The first question is purely theological, and as such is left unaddressed in the “29 Evidences”; in contrast, the second question is one that science can answer (given the assumption of a Creator).

The second point I’d like to make – and here I’m basically restating a point that William J. Murray made earlier, in mathematical language – is that KeithS has misapplied Bayes’ Theorem, which states: P(A|B) = P(A).[P(B|A)/P(B)],
where A is a proposition and B is the supporting evidence,
P(A), the prior probability, is the initial degree of belief in A,
P(A|B), the conditional probability, is the degree of belief in A, having taken B into account, and
the quotient P(B|A)/P(B) represents the support B provides for A.

A better way of stating Bayes’ Theorem is to expand the denominator, P(B). We can say that P(B) is equal to [P(B|A).P(A))+(P(B|~A).P(~A)], since if B is true, then either A is also true or A is false (and thus ~A is true). Hence:
P(A|B) = [P(A).P(B|A)]/[P(B|A).P(A))+(P(B|~A).P(~A)]
Where P(~A) is the probability of the initial degree of belief against A, or 1-P(A)
P(B|~A) is the degree of belief in B, given that the proposition A is false.

The problem is that KeithS has conflated two hypotheses: the hypothesis of common descent (which is very well-supported by the evidence that objective nested hierarchies exist in living things), and the hypothesis of unguided design (which he also claims is well-supported by the evidence that objective nested hierarchies exist in living things).

The first hypothesis is indeed well-supported by the evidence, as the only known processes that specifically generate unique, nested, hierarchical patterns are branching evolutionary processes. The probability that any other process would generate such hierarchies is vanishingly low.

But if KeithS wishes to argue against intelligently guided evolution, then the two alternative hypotheses he needs to consider are not:
A: a branching evolutionary process (also known as a Markov process) generated the objective nested hierarchies we find in living things; and
~A: an Intelligent Designer generated these objective nested hierarchies,

but instead:

A: an unguided process generated the objective nested hierarchies we find in living things; and
~A: an intelligently guided process generated these objective nested hierarchies.

The point KeithS makes in his essay is that on hypothesis ~A, the likelihood of B (objective nested hierarchies in living things) is very low. However, it is also true that on hypothesis A, the likelihood of B is very low, as the vast majority of unguided processes don’t generate objective nested hierarchies.

My third point is that KeithS’s argument assumes that the genetic and morphological features on the basis of which living things are classified into objective nested hierarchies were generated by the same process as the (unguided, Markovian) processes which generates the branches in the hierarchies. This is unlikely, even on a standard evolutionary view: features take time to evolve, and therefore would presumably have appeared at some time subsequent to the branch nodes themselves. Thus it could well be the case that while unguided processes explain the existence of objective nested hierarchies in the living world, guided processes are required to explain some or all of the features in these hierarchies.

My fourth point is that KeithS’s exclusion of the origin of life from his argument limits the force of his conclusion. At most, he can argue that objective nested hierarchies are best explained by unguided processes; but that is not the same as saying that living things themselves are best explained by these processes, or that the origin of life is due to an unguided process.

Finally, I’d like to point out that KeithS’s argument against Dr. Douglas Axe is factually mistaken. Nowhere in his paper, “The Case Against a Neo-Darwinian Origin of Protein Folds” does Dr. Axe make the argument KeithS imputes to him.

My time at the Internet cafe is up, so I shall stop here.

Comments
REality:
Keith hasn’t run from anything and you know it
Yes, keith is running from my refutations of his arguments. Heck he doesn't even seem to know what a nested hierarchy is.
If it weren’t for the unwarranted banning that is rampant here there would be more knowledgeable people responding to comments and questions from IDists.
That was proven to be false. There aren't any knowledgeable ID critics who have posted here. There aren't any knowledgeable evolutionists who have posted here- ever.Joe
November 11, 2014
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Andre: Then why is the story being rewritten again? Hey, you discovered a new cousin. That must mean the theory of how babies are made must be wrong.Zachriel
November 11, 2014
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Zachriel hahahahahahahahahaha.....
we have a phylogeny showing humans evolved from primitive deuterostomes
Then why is the story being rewritten again? And again.... and AGAIN! http://www.scientificamerican.com/editorial/evolution-rewritten/Andre
November 10, 2014
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Reality Keith S did run..... I asked about PCD, got my own OP at TSZ but no answer from Keith S....... The Question again, Reality perhaps you should try and answer it? How did unguided processes create a guided process that prevents unguided processes from happening?Andre
November 10, 2014
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Keith hasn't run from anything and you know it, Mung. Just because he doesn't respond to every comment and question from you and other IDists within seconds of them being posted doesn't mean that he's running away. He has responded many times and continues to do so on more than one thread, even though most or all of the comments and questions directed at him are incredibly ignorant and rude and have already been answered by Keith and a few other knowledgeable people multiple times. You're just a poor loser. If it weren't for the unwarranted banning that is rampant here there would be more knowledgeable people responding to comments and questions from IDists.Reality
November 10, 2014
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keiths runs from his damp squid as if it were a real bomb.Mung
November 10, 2014
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Zachriel: we have a phylogeny showing humans evolved from primitive deuterostomes
Someone with your reading skills should have no trouble finding his way in here: Human EvolutionBox
November 10, 2014
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Box: The statement pertains to the Cambrian only. Sure, maybe we have a phylogeny showing humans evolved from primitive deuterostomes, but what about them arthropods!Zachriel
November 10, 2014
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Zachriel,
Box: Meyer goes on arguing that – in line with the Darwin family analogy – there is no agreement on the birth records at all.
Zachriel: But that’s false. There is a great deal of support for the overall phylogenetic tree. That there are areas of disagreement concerning some parts of the tree doesn’t imply we have no agreement at all.
Don’t be uncharitable by taking it as a general statement about the phylogenetic tree as a totality, Zachriel. The statement pertains to the Cambrian only. That is what Meyer’s book is all about. Remember? And don’t tell me that there is general agreement on the Cambrian as well, because that is obviously not true.
Zachriel: We quoted him directly. S.Meyer: “the majority of attendees and all the strangers you engage in conversation exhibit no discernible family resemblances. Nor does anyone seem to share any personal relationships with anyone else at the reunion”. And he is clearly saying no one would recognize a family resemblance with anyone else. That’s simply false.
That would be false, right Zachriel? Well, the thing is that you stopped reading a little bit too early:
S.Meyer: As the day goes on, however, something seems amiss. Here and there, you see familiar facial features—“Yes,” you think, that person could be my cousin”—(…)
To be honest Zachriel, it’s no fun reading Darwin’s Doubt “together” with you. I think we are about done.
Zachriel: What you quote by Meyer, on the other hand, emphasizes that Meyer is arguing that a lack of knowledge in some areas of the tree translates into having “no consistent or coherent way to organism animals groups into a family tree.” That is simply false. (…) While Meyer waves his hands in the direction of the so-called gaps, (…)
Yeah. Sure. Whatever. Zachriel, I think we are done.Box
November 10, 2014
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Box: Meyer goes on arguing that – in line with the Darwin family analogy – there is no agreement on the birth records at all. But that's false. There is a great deal of support for the overall phylogenetic tree. That there are areas of disagreement concerning some parts of the tree doesn't imply we have no agreement at all. Box: Meyer never said such a thing. We quoted him directly.
“the majority of attendees and all the strangers you engage in conversation exhibit no discernible family resemblances. Nor does anyone seem to share any personal relationships with anyone else at the reunion”.
And he is clearly saying no one would recognize a family resemblance with anyone else. That's simply false. Indeed, everyone would have close and distant relatives in a great tree of relationships. What you quote by Meyer, on the other hand, emphasizes that Meyer is arguing that a lack of knowledge in some areas of the tree translates into having "no consistent or coherent way to organism animals groups into a family tree." That is simply false. Furthermore, that's exactly what Theobald shows, that the mathematics of the overall nested hierarchy are strongly supported in spite of the areas of uncertainty. While Meyer waves his hands in the direction of the so-called gaps, biologists continue to fill in those gaps. Telford et al., The evolution of the Ecdysozoa, Phil. Trans. R. Soc. B 2008.Zachriel
November 10, 2014
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Zachriel,
Box: Can you also provide the quote where Meyer states that “if “we don’t know everything, we don’t know anything”?
Zachriel: It’s encapsulated in his two analogies. Concerning the birth order of Darwin’s children, he said “No one would consider the problem solved if you came back with more than one order.” And yet, if we find birth records for nine of the ten children, we have learned a great deal, and have reduced the possibilities from over three million to just ten.
There is little doubt in my mind that Stephen would agree with you if you would be referring to reality. But you got it all wrong. Meyer goes on arguing that – in line with the Darwin family analogy – there is no agreement on the birth records at all. There is just a wide variety of conflicting lists. You see, it is the measure of the conflict that makes it very close to “we don’t know anything.” Now do you understand the analogy?
Zachriel: This faulty understanding of science is the basis of the rest of the chapter. He points to things we don’t know or don’t know with certainty, in order to then claim we don’t know anything. Yet this is the very strength of the scientific method, that we can learn some things while remaining ignorant of the vastness of the universe.
You are probably right that this is true for Darwinism. Obviously this needs correction: dogma and wildly conflicting papers should not provide ground for certainty. That should be considered unscientific by any rate.
Zachriel: Concerning the family reunion, it’s the same problem, only Mayer makes it explicit, saying we would be in a room with strangers because we don’t know the birth order of GrandPapa Bilateria’s children. It’s simply not the case.
Again you misrepresent Meyer. Meyer never said such a thing.
Stephen Meyer: (…) imagine being invited to an event billed as an extended-family reunion where you’ve been told you will encounter hundreds of your relatives, most of whom you have never met.
Stephen Meyer: Of course, my family reunion illustration breaks down as an analogy to the history of animal life, because if we could trace the history of all the people at the reunion back far enough we would find that they are all related by common ancestry. Though we can choose to assume that the same is true of the Cambrian animals, neither the fossil evidence nor the evidence of genetics and comparative anatomy actually establishes that. These three classes of evidence either provide no compelling evidence for Precambrian animal ancestors (in the case of fossils), or they provide question-begging and conflicting evidence (in the case of genes and anatomy). And that is the point of my story. Since there can be only one true history of the Cambrian animals, the evidence should converge on a common family tree—if indeed we are looking at evidence of true history. The picture given by the evidence should be stable, not constantly changing. But the evidence from a variety of quarters has instead continually generated new, conflicting, and incoherent pictures of the history of animal life. As with the “cousins” in my illustration, there seems to be no consistent and coherent way to organize the animal groups into a family tree.
Box
November 10, 2014
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Box: You must be talking about some other chapter, than the chapter I referred to (see post #389) It's chapter 6. The animal tree of life. Box: Can you also provide the quote where Meyer states that “if “we don’t know everything, we don’t know anything”? It's encapsulated in his two analogies. Concerning the birth order of Darwin's children, he said "No one would consider the problem solved if you came back with more than one order." And yet, if we find birth records for nine of the ten children, we have learned a great deal, and have reduced the possibilities from over three million to just ten. This faulty understanding of science is the basis of the rest of the chapter. He points to things we don't know or don't know with certainty, in order to then claim we don't know anything. Yet this is the very strength of the scientific method, that we can learn some things while remaining ignorant of the vastness of the universe. Concerning the family reunion, it's the same problem, only Mayer makes it explicit, saying we would be in a room with strangers because we don't know the birth order of GrandPapa Bilateria's children. It's simply not the case.Zachriel
November 10, 2014
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Box: Now I ask you: where, in here, do you read about the analogy ‘the birth order of the children of Darwin’?
Zachriel: Um, at the start of the chapter. Meanwhile, you ignored our reply. Meyer starts the chapter by making an egregious error concerning scientific knowledge, that is we don’t know everything, we don’t know anything.
You must be talking about some other chapter, than the chapter I referred to (see post #389) - where S.Meyer actually addresses Theobald's claim. Why did you not provide the title of this chapter? Thank you. Can you also provide the quote where Meyer states that "if "we don’t know everything, we don’t know anything"? I would be quite surprised to learn that Stephen Meyer actually said that.Box
November 10, 2014
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Box: Contrary to your claim, Meyer starts out like this ... Box: Now I ask you: where, in here, do you read about the analogy ‘the birth order of the children of Darwin’? Um, at the start of the chapter. Meanwhile, you ignored our reply. Meyer starts the chapter by making an egregious error concerning scientific knowledge, that is we don't know everything, we don't know anything. As for the specifics. We observe vast trees of deuterostomes, arthropods, and nematodes. They are clearly nested within bilateria. The only question, out of thousands of known branches, is which branched from bilateria first. When we look at the vast amount of data that we have, the tree is strongly supported, even if we can't always resolve certain branchings. Then Meyer mangles another analogy, the family reunion.
"the majority of attendees and all the strangers you engage in conversation exhibit no discernible family resemblances. Nor does anyone seem to share any personal relationships with anyone else at the reunion".
But this is exactly contrary to what we observe concerning the biological tree! Indeed, the vast majority of people at the reunion can clearly find both close and distant relatives. Even the arthropod, deuterostome, and nematode branches share a common ancestor, Grandpapa Bilateria. The only question is which of Grandpapa Bilateria's children was born first. But of the thousands upon thousands there at the reunion, the vast majority find themselves surrounded by people sharing a family resemblance, and who are relatives with known relationships. Meyer’s Gap argument is that, sure, maybe we have a phylogeny showing humans evolved from primitive deuterostomes, but what about them arthropods! Edgecombe et al., Higher-level metazoan relationships: recent progress and remaining questions, Organisms Diversity & Evolution 2011: “A stable core of the tree for bilaterian animals is now at hand, and instability and conflict are becoming restricted to a key set of important but contentious relationships.”Zachriel
November 10, 2014
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Zachriel #391: Ugh. He starts out with an analogy, the birth order of the children of Darwin, then mangles it by suggesting that you have to know everything in order to know anything.
Zachriel, I have told you exactly where Meyer addresses Theobald’s claim (see post #389), but you seem to have some trouble finding it. Contrary to your claim, Meyer starts out like this:
After citing Pauling and Zuckerkandl’s test, Douglas Theobald claims in his “29+ Evidences for Macroevolution” that “well-determined phylogenetic trees inferred from the independent evidence of morphology and molecular sequences match with an extremely high degree of statistical significance.”26 In reality, however, the technical literature tells a different story. Studies of molecular homologies often fail to confirm evolutionary trees depicting the history of the animal phyla derived from studies of comparative anatomy. Instead, during the 1990s, early into the revolution in molecular genetics, many studies began to show that phylogenetic trees derived from anatomy and those derived from molecules often contradicted each other. Probably the most protracted conflict of this type concerns a widely accepted phylogeny for the bilaterian animals. This classification scheme was originally the work of the influential American zoologist Libbie Hyman.27 Hyman’s view, generally known as the “Coelomata” hypothesis, was based on her analysis of anatomical characteristics, mainly germ (or primary tissue) layers, planes of body symmetry, and especially the presence or absence of a central body cavity called the “coelom,” which gives the hypothesis its name. In the Coelomata hypothesis, the bilaterian animals were classified in three groups, the Acoelomata, the Pseudocoelomata, and the Coelomata, each encompassing several different bilaterian animal phyla.28 (See Fig. 6.1a.) Then, in the mid-1990s, a very different a Then, in the mid-1990s, a very different arrangement of these animal groups was proposed based on the analysis of a molecule present in each (the 18S ribosomal RNA; see Fig. 6.1b). The team of researchers who proposed this arrangement published a groundbreaking paper in Nature with a title that surprised many morphologists: “Evidence for a Clade of Nematodes, Arthropods and Other Moulting Animals.”29 The paper noted the conventional wisdom, based on Hyman’s hypothesis, that arthropods and annelids were closely related because both phyla had segmented body plans.30 But their study of the 18S ribosomal RNA suggested a different grouping, one that placed arthropods close to nematodes within a group of animals that molt, which they called “Ecdysozoa.” This relationship surprised anatomists, since arthropods and nematodes don’t exactly look like kissing cousins. Arthropods (such as trilobites and insects) have coeloms, whereas nematodes (such as the tiny worm Caenorhabditis elegans) do not, leading many evolutionary biologists to believe nematodes were early branching animals only distantly related to arthropods.31 The Nature paper explained how unexpected this grouping of arthropods and nematodes was: “Considering the greatly differing morphologies, embryological features, and life histories of the molting animals, it was initially surprising that the ribosomal RNA tree should group them together.”32 [and S. Meyer goes on several pages building his case based on several distinct arguments and many references to scientific papers]
Now I ask you: where, in here, do you read about the analogy ‘the birth order of the children of Darwin’?
Zachriel: So what does Meyer do? He waves his hands. What do working biologists do? They build a better telescope and collect more data. Edgecombe et al., Higher-level metazoan relationships: recent progress and remaining questions, Organisms Diversity & Evolution 2011: “A stable core of the tree for bilaterian animals is now at hand, and instability and conflict are becoming restricted to a key set of important but contentious relationships.”
It will probably come as a surprise to you that Stephen Meyer shows diagrams from Edgecombe’s paper and cites him multiple times in the next couple of pages. Anyway, you seem to know everything about Stephen Meyer’s book already …. Good luck with that.Box
November 9, 2014
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Adapa
Just admit you made a mistake and move on.
Far be it from me to deny the evidence. Thank you for providing it.StephenB
November 9, 2014
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Box: Can you link to Theobald’s response to Stephen Meyer? Have no idea.Zachriel
November 9, 2014
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Box: “Old discarded scroll”? Yes, it was found on the discard pile. Perhaps it wasn't old. Didn't look like it had been opened before. Box: Part One: The Mystery of the Missing Fossils; 6. The animal tree of life; Molecules vs. Anatomy. Ugh. He starts out with an analogy, the birth order of the children of Darwin, then mangles it by suggesting that you have to know everything in order to know anything. If we can find birth records on nine of Darwin's ten children, then even though we don't know everything, we don't have to have to one true and complete history to have significant knowledge of the birth order. Indeed, we will have reduced the uncertainty from one of more than three million possibilities to just ten. The entire article rests on this faulty understanding of how evidence is evaluated. Really, Meyer's Gap argument is that, sure, maybe we have a phylogeny showing humans evolved from primitive deuterostomes, but what about them arthropods! The scientific problem is one of resolution, that is, trying to discern the branches of a tree at a distance of hundreds of millions of years, one where the branching was occurring relatively rapidly, and fossils are rare. So what does Meyer do? He waves his hands. What do working biologists do? They build a better telescope and collect more data. Edgecombe et al., Higher-level metazoan relationships: recent progress and remaining questions, Organisms Diversity & Evolution 2011: "A stable core of the tree for bilaterian animals is now at hand, and instability and conflict are becoming restricted to a key set of important but contentious relationships."Zachriel
November 9, 2014
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Zachriel, I have to ask you again: "Can you link to Theobald’s response to Stephen Meyer?"Box
November 9, 2014
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Zachriel: We have found an old discarded scroll of Meyer’s book, “Darwin’s Doubt”. Can you point to a chapter wherein he makes those claims?
"Old discarded scroll"? Only a cub would call Meyer's book (2013) "old". In my e-book version of Stephen Meyer's, 'Darwin's Doubt' addressing and dissecting of Theobald's erroneous claims starts here: Part One: The Mystery of the Missing Fossils; 6. The animal tree of life; Molecules vs. Anatomy. What follows is: many links to scientific studies, several diagrams and cogent valid argumentation. Happy reading!Box
November 9, 2014
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Box Let me ask again: “are you aware of the fact that Stephen Meyer wrote extensively on Theobald’s claim? Stephen Meyer has written a lot of pseudo-scientific Christian apologetics in his day. Ignoring the actual scientific data except for the occasional quote-mining foray is what he's well known for in the scientific community. Is there a point?Adapa
November 9, 2014
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Adapa #385: I’m aware of the fact that Stephen Meyer egregiously quote-mined the Peterson paper
That is just dandy - although it's interesting to point out that you are unable to provide a single sentence from Peterson's paper that contradicts the quotations used by Stephen Meyer - but it is not an answer to my question. Let me ask again: "are you aware of the fact that Stephen Meyer wrote extensively on Theobald’s claim?"Box
November 9, 2014
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Box: "In reality, however, the technical literature tells a different story." [and Meyer goes on for several pages providing arguments and information from dozens of studies] We have found an old discarded scroll of Meyer's book, "Darwin's Doubt". Can you point to a chapter wherein he makes those claims? If not, can you quote specifics?Zachriel
November 9, 2014
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Box Zachriel (and Adapa), are you aware of the fact that Stephen Meyer wrote extensively on Theobald’s claim? I'm aware of the fact that Stephen Meyer egregiously quote-mined the Peterson paper on Precambrian genetic evidence while totally ignoring the technical content.Adapa
November 9, 2014
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Zachriel (and Adapa), are you aware of the fact that Stephen Meyer wrote extensively on Theobald's claim?
S.Meyer, from 'Darwin's Doubt': And according to some scientists, studies of molecular homologies have confirmed expectations about the history of the animal phyla derived from studies of comparative anatomy. After citing Pauling and Zuckerkandl’s test, Douglas Theobald claims in his “29+ Evidences for Macroevolution” that “well-determined phylogenetic trees inferred from the independent evidence of morphology and molecular sequences match with an extremely high degree of statistical significance.”26 In reality, however, the technical literature tells a different story. (...) [and Meyer goes on for several pages providing arguments and information from dozens of studies]
Can you link to Theobald's response to Stephen Meyer?Box
November 9, 2014
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Box: Does Stephen Meyer’s argument, presented in his book ‘Darwin’s Doubt’, that there is no Darwinian explanation for Cambrian organisms, pose a problem for Theobald’s position? Adapa: No because Meyer’s claim has been falsified by the genetic evidence ... What Adapa said. Evidence is also found in the paper that formed the basis of this series of posts, Theobald 2010.Zachriel
November 9, 2014
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Box Does Stephen Meyer’s argument, presented in his book ‘Darwin’s Doubt’, that there is no Darwinian explanation for Cambrian organisms, pose a problem for Theobald’s position? If not, why not? No because Meyer's claim has been falsified by the genetic evidence which shows the branching origin of the Cambrian biota from common ancestors in Precambrian times. Read the Peterson paper you keep avoiding.Adapa
November 9, 2014
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StephanB In arguing against Darwinian evolution, ID proponents do not argue that a “barrier” (obstacle, impediment, hindrance, or stumbling block) exists that would prevent micro-evolution from becoming macro-evolution. What they do argue is that the natural process of random variation and natural selection can produce small changes, but there is no evidence that these small changes can accumulate into macro-evolution. Of course ID proponents claim there's a barrier that prevents micro-e from accumulating into macro-e. Meyer wrote a whole book with that as the theme. Axe wrote a paper with that theme
Axe: The Case Against a Darwinian Origin of Protein Folds Four decades ago, several scientists suggested that the impossibility of any evolutionary process sampling anything but a miniscule fraction of the possible protein sequences posed a problem for the evolution of new proteins. This potential problem—the sampling problem—was largely ignored, in part because those who raised it had to rely on guesswork to fill some key gaps in their understanding of proteins. The huge advances since that time call for a careful reassessment of the issue they raised. Focusing specifically on the origin of new protein folds, I argue here that the sampling problem remains. The difficulty stems from the fact that new protein functions, when analyzed at the level of new beneficial phenotypes, typically require multiple new protein folds, which in turn require long stretches of new protein sequence. Two conceivable ways for this not to pose an insurmountable barrier to Darwinian searches exist. One is that protein function might generally be largely indifferent to protein sequence. The other is that relatively simple manipulations of existing genes, such as shuffling of genetic modules, might be able to produce the necessary new folds. I argue that these ideas now stand at odds both with known principles of protein structure an with direct experimental evidence. If this is correct, the sampling problem is here to stay, and we should be looking well outside the Darwinian framework for an adequate explanation of fold origins.
You attempts to spin your misunderstanding are getting really silly. Even your fellow IDers have called you on it. Just admit you made a mistake and move on.Adapa
November 9, 2014
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Zachriel, Does Stephen Meyer's argument, presented in his book 'Darwin's Doubt', that there is no Darwinian explanation for Cambrian organisms, pose a problem for Theobald's position? If not, why not?Box
November 9, 2014
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Zachriel
You seem to be echoing everything on two threads. That makes it hard to follow for readers. Please respond on one or the other thread.
I agree... (you started copy/pasting your responses first though actually). The problem is I keep finding you making the same erroneous claims about the nested hierarchy in multiple threads. But for now we can try to limit the discussion to the more recent thread here: https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/how-keiths-bomb-turned-into-a-suicide-mission/#comment-526786 And good luck trying to distract from self-evident logical truths by appealing to algorithms.lifepsy
November 9, 2014
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