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Why KeithS’s bomb is a damp squib

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In this short post, I’d like to explain what’s wrong with KeithS’s argument for unguided evolution. The argument, in a nutshell, goes like this:

1. We observe objective nested hierarchies (ONH)
2. Unguided evolution explains ONH
3. A designer explains ONH, but also a trillion alternatives.
4. Both unguided evolution and a designer are capable of causing ONH.
Conclusion: Unguided evolution is a trillion times better at explaining ONH.

The first thing I’d like to point out is that while KeithS, in his post over at TSZ leans heavily on the evidence assembled by Dr. Douglas Theobald in his article, 29+ Evidences of Macroevolution, it is very odd that Dr. Theobald himself does not put forward this argument anywhere in his article. On the contrary, he expressly declares, in his reply to creationist Ashley Camp’s critique:

This is not to say that God could not have created species independently and miraculously, yet gradually. While there currently is absolutely no scientific evidence for such an idea, gradual Divine direction of evolution is indeed consistent and compatible with common descent.

It is possible for a theist to see the theory of common descent, and the hierarchy which it predicts, as a reflection of the Creator’s divine plan—much as Sir Isaac Newton saw his laws of motion, and the ellipses and parabolas which they predict, as evidence of the Creator’s hand in our universe…

In fact, no theological assumptions or arguments are made at all in the essay. The “29 Evidences” is not an argument against creation—it is the scientific argument for common descent, no more, no less…

I personally believe that an omnipotent, omniscient Creator could have created in any manner that he chose. For a theist, the pertinent question is not “what is an omnipotent Creator capable of?” but rather “how exactly did/does the Creator create?”. The first question is purely theological, and as such is left unaddressed in the “29 Evidences”; in contrast, the second question is one that science can answer (given the assumption of a Creator).

The second point I’d like to make – and here I’m basically restating a point that William J. Murray made earlier, in mathematical language – is that KeithS has misapplied Bayes’ Theorem, which states: P(A|B) = P(A).[P(B|A)/P(B)],
where A is a proposition and B is the supporting evidence,
P(A), the prior probability, is the initial degree of belief in A,
P(A|B), the conditional probability, is the degree of belief in A, having taken B into account, and
the quotient P(B|A)/P(B) represents the support B provides for A.

A better way of stating Bayes’ Theorem is to expand the denominator, P(B). We can say that P(B) is equal to [P(B|A).P(A))+(P(B|~A).P(~A)], since if B is true, then either A is also true or A is false (and thus ~A is true). Hence:
P(A|B) = [P(A).P(B|A)]/[P(B|A).P(A))+(P(B|~A).P(~A)]
Where P(~A) is the probability of the initial degree of belief against A, or 1-P(A)
P(B|~A) is the degree of belief in B, given that the proposition A is false.

The problem is that KeithS has conflated two hypotheses: the hypothesis of common descent (which is very well-supported by the evidence that objective nested hierarchies exist in living things), and the hypothesis of unguided design (which he also claims is well-supported by the evidence that objective nested hierarchies exist in living things).

The first hypothesis is indeed well-supported by the evidence, as the only known processes that specifically generate unique, nested, hierarchical patterns are branching evolutionary processes. The probability that any other process would generate such hierarchies is vanishingly low.

But if KeithS wishes to argue against intelligently guided evolution, then the two alternative hypotheses he needs to consider are not:
A: a branching evolutionary process (also known as a Markov process) generated the objective nested hierarchies we find in living things; and
~A: an Intelligent Designer generated these objective nested hierarchies,

but instead:

A: an unguided process generated the objective nested hierarchies we find in living things; and
~A: an intelligently guided process generated these objective nested hierarchies.

The point KeithS makes in his essay is that on hypothesis ~A, the likelihood of B (objective nested hierarchies in living things) is very low. However, it is also true that on hypothesis A, the likelihood of B is very low, as the vast majority of unguided processes don’t generate objective nested hierarchies.

My third point is that KeithS’s argument assumes that the genetic and morphological features on the basis of which living things are classified into objective nested hierarchies were generated by the same process as the (unguided, Markovian) processes which generates the branches in the hierarchies. This is unlikely, even on a standard evolutionary view: features take time to evolve, and therefore would presumably have appeared at some time subsequent to the branch nodes themselves. Thus it could well be the case that while unguided processes explain the existence of objective nested hierarchies in the living world, guided processes are required to explain some or all of the features in these hierarchies.

My fourth point is that KeithS’s exclusion of the origin of life from his argument limits the force of his conclusion. At most, he can argue that objective nested hierarchies are best explained by unguided processes; but that is not the same as saying that living things themselves are best explained by these processes, or that the origin of life is due to an unguided process.

Finally, I’d like to point out that KeithS’s argument against Dr. Douglas Axe is factually mistaken. Nowhere in his paper, “The Case Against a Neo-Darwinian Origin of Protein Folds” does Dr. Axe make the argument KeithS imputes to him.

My time at the Internet cafe is up, so I shall stop here.

Comments
Zachriel is full of it, as usual. Family trees are examples of branching descent and they do not form objective nested hierarchies. The hypothesis fails.Joe
November 5, 2014
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Mapou: Darwin never anticipated horizontal gene transfers. That wasn't your previous claim, which was that Darwin "predicted a strictly nested tree of life". That was incorrect. While Darwin was unaware of horizontal gene transfer, he was aware of other mechanisms that would lead to imperfections in the nested hierarchy, including hybridization and convergence.Zachriel
November 5, 2014
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Box (37): How on earth can science answer the question, “how exactly did/does the Creator create?” The only point where there may be validity to your rhetorical is in the word "exactly". As science pursues a log of the history of the earth and its biology, a pattern of the designer's activity unfolds. > It seems clear that the designer did his thing over millions of years. > It seems clear that one mechanism used by the designer is to load balance and purify using a tool we have called natural selection. > Evidence seems to support the idea that the designer caused biological diversity by twiddling with existing, living organisms along the way (UCD). > The designer seems to have liked to work one level at a time. (During the early cambrian, the designer was fiddling with the phyla. Once he had so fiddled, he abandoned fiddling at that level, and began fiddling on the level of the classes.) > The designer seems to like to inject whole working genes. At least that is the conclusion I come to as I see how many de novo genes are being found. (Something that NDE can't achieve in my opinion.) So far we don't know "exactly" how the designer injects a new gene into an organism. We may never know. However, as time and research continue our picture of how the designer designs becomes clearer and clearer.Moose Dr
November 5, 2014
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Zac:
Mapou: Darwin predicted a strictly nested tree of life. That’s not correct.
Of course, it is correct. Darwin never anticipated horizontal gene transfers. To suggest that he did is insulting to the readers. It's a lie.
For instance, Darwin was well aware of hybridization about which he wrote extensively. Also, convergence leads to traits which don’t fit the nested hierarchy, such as dolphins and fish both having fins. In any case, Theobald’s paper demonstrates monophyly.
For someone as fanatically dishonest as you to insinuate that "convergent evolution", let alone hybridization, is anything like horizontal gene transfers, is tantamount to flinging feces through the fence at the onlookers. You need to be hosed down with a firehose. There is no way that random mutations and natural selection are going to arrive at the exact same code sequences in distant species. You're a superstitious voodoo practitioner masquerading as a scientist. Pathetic.Mapou
November 5, 2014
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KS, you plainly have not read Theobald's argument, and why I said that. Please read here, right at the beginning of his 29 points argument he committed exactly the blunder I highlighted. That undermines his system. Further you need to note what appears at 5 above in regards to your own argument, which is based on question begging as again shown. When you show us how you resolve that and linked concerns, then we can begin to make actual progress towards a reasonable view. KFkairosfocus
November 5, 2014
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Videos added.kairosfocus
November 5, 2014
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A challenge for the IDers here.keith s
November 5, 2014
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kairosfocus: Dr T stumbled in the starting gate once he entertained notions of categorising the evolutionary materialist narrative as “fact” — the fact, fact, FACT error. No. Theobald *hypothesized* branching descent, then tested the entailment, the nested hierarchy. hypothesis, a claim provisionally accepted for the purpose of testing its empirical implications (entailments). kairosfocus: There is need to ground the claimed powers of blind chance and mechanical necessity from OOL through the whole branching tree system, and particularly on the origin of functionally specific complex organisation and associated information, in the context of interacting arranged pasts to achieve function. That is irrelevant to the particular hypothesis being tested. Perhaps someone shaped the tree, or forced branches into particular shapes, but the branching is still evident. We'd have to look at other evidence to determine that, but any competing hypothesis would probably have to be consistent with branching descent, or at least explain why the data has the signature of branching descent.Zachriel
November 5, 2014
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Phinehas: No, the hypothesized mechanism is unguided branching descent. The hypothesis in Theobald's paper is branching descent. That's what was subjected to testing. Phinehas: Without keeping this in view, you are saying nothing at all about whether or not design was involved. That's correct. The paper only concerns the evidence for branching descent. nullasalus: Saying ‘we have this particular pattern, which is explained by evolution / common descent / etc’ doesn’t get you an inch in the direction of saying that pattern was the result of an unguided process in the broad sense That's correct. The paper only concerns the evidence for branching descent. nullasalus: Just about every tool in the evolutionary toolbox – common descent, reproduction with variation, selection, and more – are also tools in the designer’s toolbox. Good. Then we agree on branching descent. That's important because it provides the historical context necessary for understanding mechanisms of adaptations. Mapou: Darwin predicted a strictly nested tree of life. That's not correct. For instance, Darwin was well aware of hybridization about which he wrote extensively. Also, convergence leads to traits which don't fit the nested hierarchy, such as dolphins and fish both having fins. In any case, Theobald's paper demonstrates monophyly.Zachriel
November 5, 2014
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Z, in a pause. The OP is reporting where KS took his stance. My point from two years past and counting is that Dr T stumbled in the starting gate once he entertained notions of categorising the evolutionary materialist narrative as "fact" -- the fact, fact, FACT error. Wiki goes worse by suggesting self-evident. There is need to ground the claimed powers of blind chance and mechanical necessity from OOL through the whole branching tree system, and particularly on the origin of functionally specific complex organisation and associated information, in the context of interacting arranged pasts to achieve function. FSCO/I in short. Absence of showing that blind watchmaker mechanisms in our observation can and does create FSCO/I leads to a failure of showing vera causa, and to a question begging fail for KS as noted at 5 above (which KS has not adequately resolved). Cf here for details. KFkairosfocus
November 5, 2014
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If Darwin couldn't say anything about the origin of life he couldn't say how many trees there would be.Joe
November 5, 2014
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Based on the quote in the OP, one has to wonder if Theobald is to be regarded as a leading light.
Dr. Theobald: For a theist, the pertinent question is not “what is an omnipotent Creator capable of?” but rather “how exactly did/does the Creator create?”. The first question is purely theological, and as such is left unaddressed in the “29 Evidences”; in contrast, the second question is one that science can answer (...)
How on earth can science answer the question, “how exactly did/does the Creator create?” Theobald's optimism is only grounded when he has received an invitation to visit the designer's lab.Box
November 5, 2014
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Darwin predicted a strictly nested tree of life. The evidence proved him dead wrong. Intelligent design predicts a nested hierarchy with horizontal gene sharing sprinkled everywhere. Guess what? This is precisely what is observed in nature. Zachriel has been repeating the same lies for years. No hall pass for you, Zachriel.Mapou
November 5, 2014
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I'm repeating what others, particularly WJM, have already said - but that's because the responses from ID critics don't seem to get it. Saying 'we have this particular pattern, which is explained by evolution / common descent / etc' doesn't get you an inch in the direction of saying that pattern was the result of an unguided process in the broad sense - and the broad sense is exactly what's under discussion here. Just about every tool in the evolutionary toolbox - common descent, reproduction with variation, selection, and more - are also tools in the designer's toolbox. It's not enough for you to point to those tools. You need some way to argue that the tools have no guidance by any designer behind them. None whatsoever. The ID proponent, meanwhile, has a lot more freedom. It actually doesn't matter if one or another event in nature was unguided - if it was even partly guided, however remotely and ultimately, then ID is correct. And using science, the ID skeptic can't provide evidence that much of anything at all is unguided in the relevant sense. Now, it's possible to try and turn this around - and I see some people are already attempting this - by arguing, 'Well, you haven't proven that God/a designer/designers was involved in evolution!' Let's put all of the argued ID inferences to the side for one moment and accept, for the sake of argument, that the 'haven't proven' claim is true. Okay - the resulting conclusion is that science is absolutely silent on the presence or lack of design in evolution at any stage, at any level. It leaves the topic untouched, with neither "evolution is guided" nor "evolution is unguided" having scientific merit. But to concede that would just be to concede a victory to most skeptics of naturalism and naturalistic evolution. It turns out that Darwin never discovered anything that should shake people's belief that nature was designed. He discovered a system under which nature was possibly not-designed - but 'possibly not designed' was never new, and was possible before. As Barry said - there is no bomb. A whole lot of smoke, sure. Mirrors too. But no bomb.nullasalus
November 5, 2014
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semi related: Among Theistic Evolutions, Still No Consensus on What's Wrong with Stephen Meyer's Argument - Casey Luskin - November 5, 2014 http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/11/among_theistic_090921.htmlbornagain77
November 5, 2014
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LoL! keith s gets spanked and ignores it. keith s, a special type of Black Knight LoLJoe
November 5, 2014
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LoL! keith s gets spanked and ignores it. keith s, a special type of Black KnoghtJoe
November 5, 2014
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Barry, We're still awaiting your response to my challenge.keith s
November 5, 2014
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Zachriel:
The hypothesized mechanism is branching descent.
So you are discussing baraminology and the fact the nested hierarchy is evidence for a common design. CoolJoe
November 5, 2014
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Zachriel:
The evidence from the nested hierarchy strongly supports common descent,
Only if transitional forms are not allowed. And a family tree is an example of common descent yet it doesn't form a nested hierarchy based on defined characteristics. OTOH the US Army is a nested hierarchy, by design. Common descent not required. Also a branching tree can be put into a nested hierarchy depending on the criteria used. Just because a nested hierarchy can be depicted as a branching tree pattern does not mean all branching tree patterns are nested hierarchies. Yet evos think that they are. StrangeJoe
November 5, 2014
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Zachriel:
William J Murray: If nature can produce a biological system that is not a nested hierarchy, then assuming it had other possibilities available but generated an ONH is no different than assuming that a designer had other options but chose an ONH. Zachriel: “Nature” is too vague to be a suitable mechanism for scientific consideration. The hypothesized mechanism is branching descent. The entailment is the nested hierarchy.
No, the hypothesized mechanism is unguided branching descent. "Nature" is a decent enough label for keeping the "unguided" part in view. Without keeping this in view, you are saying nothing at all about whether or not design was involved.Phinehas
November 5, 2014
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Bob O'H @ 16. I am sure you will agree that the phrase "common descent" (about which he was speaking) is not coterminous with the word "evolution."Barry Arrington
November 5, 2014
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Kieth S: "A friend of yours takes both objects into another room, out of your sight. She randomly picks one of the two objects and flips it." How illogical is it to decide that the designer(s) choose(s) which option to go with at random. Could the designer(s) look at the available options and consider which is best for his/their purpose(s)? There are exactly two models that I could see the designer using if his purpose was to make it clear to all that there is only one designer, not many. The model chosen does a rather good job of that. As all organisms originate from an initial ancestor, they all have the same root. The number of designers is now limited to none or one. (There is a possibility of many designers working as a unity, but they can be treated as one.) Another option of course is "poof" 6,000 years ago. Evidence of such would be incredibly strong support of a Biblical view, and very much a science stopper. However, the fact that life was developed over eons makes for a much more interesting blow-by-blow account of life's development. Maybe the designer likes it that way. It certainly is more, well, interesting. It also produces a position where the validity of God is not in your face obvious -- something I think the designer may want. 'Would be nice if the first few chapters of the Bible were written differently though.Moose Dr
November 5, 2014
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Zachriel:
Um, we’re disagreeing with KeithS’s conclusion.
Zachriel and I disputed this in the comments of my original thread. Interested readers can find our discussion starting here.keith s
November 5, 2014
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What Types of Evolution Does the Cambrian Explosion Challenge? - Stephen Meyer - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaF7t5wRFtA&list=UUUMhP2x7_7psVO-H4MJFpAQbornagain77
November 5, 2014
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"The diagram of the Cambrian Explosion is consistent with a branching process." Save for the fact that the branches only exist in the imagination of Darwinists you may have had a point. Challenging Fossil of a Little Fish Excerpt: “I think this is a major mystery in paleontology,” said Chen. “Before the Cambrian, we should see a number of steps: differentiation of cells, differentiation of tissue, of dorsal and ventral, right and left. But we don’t have strong evidence for any of these.” Taiwanese biologist Li was also direct: “No evolution theory can explain these kinds of phenomena.” http://www.fredheeren.com/boston.htm "We go from single cell protozoa. which would be ameoba and things like that. Then you get into some that are a little bit bigger, still single cell, and then you get aggregates, they're still individual cells that aggregate together. They don't seem to have much in the way of cooperation,,, but when you really talk about a functioning organism, that has more than just one type of cell, you are talking about a sponge and you can have hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of cells. So we don't really have organisms that function with say two different types of cells, but there is only five total. We don't have anything like that." - Dr. Raymond G. Bohlin - quote taken from 31:00 minute mark of this following video Natural Limits to Biological Change 2/2 - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo3OKSGeFRQ Dr. Stephen Meyer: Darwin's Dilemma - The Significance of Sponge Embryos - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPs8E7y0ySs Deepening Darwin's Dilemma - Jonathan Wells - Sept. 2009 Excerpt: "The truth is that (finding) “exceptionally preserved microbes” from the late Precambrian actually deepen Darwin’s dilemma, because they suggest that if there had been ancestors to the Cambrian phyla they would have been preserved." http://www.discovery.org/a/12471bornagain77
November 5, 2014
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kairosfocus: Z, if you are forced to refer to Theobald as your point of reference Um, it's the basis of the original post. kairosfocus: KS’ skeletal argument Um, we're disagreeing with KeithS's conclusion. The reasons you give, such as the mystery of the origin of life, don't address the nested hierarchy. William J Murray: If nature can produce a biological system that is not a nested hierarchy, then assuming it had other possibilities available but generated an ONH is no different than assuming that a designer had other options but chose an ONH. "Nature" is too vague to be a suitable mechanism for scientific consideration. The hypothesized mechanism is branching descent. The entailment is the nested hierarchy. bornagain77: Timeline graphic on Cambrian Explosion from ‘Darwin’s Doubt’ (Disparity preceding Diversity) http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/07/its_darwins_dou074341.html The diagram of the Cambrian Explosion is consistent with a branching process.Zachriel
November 5, 2014
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Anyone who thinks that the Cambrian Explosion, and the subsequent 'top down' pattern in the fossil record, supports Darwin's tree of life seriously needs to consider entering a rehab program to get off of whatever drugs they are smoking: Timeline graphic on Cambrian Explosion from 'Darwin's Doubt' (Disparity preceding Diversity) http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/07/its_darwins_dou074341.htmlbornagain77
November 5, 2014
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Zachrieal, If nature can produce a biological system that is not a nested hierarchy, then assuming it had other possibilities available but generated an ONH is no different than assuming that a designer had other options but chose an ONH. If nature is predisposed by natural law and molecular tendency to produce an ONH in biological systems, the questions that follow are: (1) Why would any designer attempt to thwart natural law and tendency when he could just work</strong with such natural forces, and (2) How could any designer circumvent such a system if nature itself is assumed incapable of producing anything else, as keith's argument assumes?William J Murray
November 5, 2014
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Z, if you are forced to refer to Theobald as your point of reference, I am afraid you are stumbling in the starting gate -- start with OOL and address origin of FSCO/I, and please don't get into the it's fact, fact FACT blunder that lies behind KS' skeletal argument responded to on points in 5 above. Later. KFkairosfocus
November 5, 2014
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