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Why KeithS’s bomb is a damp squib

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In this short post, I’d like to explain what’s wrong with KeithS’s argument for unguided evolution. The argument, in a nutshell, goes like this:

1. We observe objective nested hierarchies (ONH)
2. Unguided evolution explains ONH
3. A designer explains ONH, but also a trillion alternatives.
4. Both unguided evolution and a designer are capable of causing ONH.
Conclusion: Unguided evolution is a trillion times better at explaining ONH.

The first thing I’d like to point out is that while KeithS, in his post over at TSZ leans heavily on the evidence assembled by Dr. Douglas Theobald in his article, 29+ Evidences of Macroevolution, it is very odd that Dr. Theobald himself does not put forward this argument anywhere in his article. On the contrary, he expressly declares, in his reply to creationist Ashley Camp’s critique:

This is not to say that God could not have created species independently and miraculously, yet gradually. While there currently is absolutely no scientific evidence for such an idea, gradual Divine direction of evolution is indeed consistent and compatible with common descent.

It is possible for a theist to see the theory of common descent, and the hierarchy which it predicts, as a reflection of the Creator’s divine plan—much as Sir Isaac Newton saw his laws of motion, and the ellipses and parabolas which they predict, as evidence of the Creator’s hand in our universe…

In fact, no theological assumptions or arguments are made at all in the essay. The “29 Evidences” is not an argument against creation—it is the scientific argument for common descent, no more, no less…

I personally believe that an omnipotent, omniscient Creator could have created in any manner that he chose. For a theist, the pertinent question is not “what is an omnipotent Creator capable of?” but rather “how exactly did/does the Creator create?”. The first question is purely theological, and as such is left unaddressed in the “29 Evidences”; in contrast, the second question is one that science can answer (given the assumption of a Creator).

The second point I’d like to make – and here I’m basically restating a point that William J. Murray made earlier, in mathematical language – is that KeithS has misapplied Bayes’ Theorem, which states: P(A|B) = P(A).[P(B|A)/P(B)],
where A is a proposition and B is the supporting evidence,
P(A), the prior probability, is the initial degree of belief in A,
P(A|B), the conditional probability, is the degree of belief in A, having taken B into account, and
the quotient P(B|A)/P(B) represents the support B provides for A.

A better way of stating Bayes’ Theorem is to expand the denominator, P(B). We can say that P(B) is equal to [P(B|A).P(A))+(P(B|~A).P(~A)], since if B is true, then either A is also true or A is false (and thus ~A is true). Hence:
P(A|B) = [P(A).P(B|A)]/[P(B|A).P(A))+(P(B|~A).P(~A)]
Where P(~A) is the probability of the initial degree of belief against A, or 1-P(A)
P(B|~A) is the degree of belief in B, given that the proposition A is false.

The problem is that KeithS has conflated two hypotheses: the hypothesis of common descent (which is very well-supported by the evidence that objective nested hierarchies exist in living things), and the hypothesis of unguided design (which he also claims is well-supported by the evidence that objective nested hierarchies exist in living things).

The first hypothesis is indeed well-supported by the evidence, as the only known processes that specifically generate unique, nested, hierarchical patterns are branching evolutionary processes. The probability that any other process would generate such hierarchies is vanishingly low.

But if KeithS wishes to argue against intelligently guided evolution, then the two alternative hypotheses he needs to consider are not:
A: a branching evolutionary process (also known as a Markov process) generated the objective nested hierarchies we find in living things; and
~A: an Intelligent Designer generated these objective nested hierarchies,

but instead:

A: an unguided process generated the objective nested hierarchies we find in living things; and
~A: an intelligently guided process generated these objective nested hierarchies.

The point KeithS makes in his essay is that on hypothesis ~A, the likelihood of B (objective nested hierarchies in living things) is very low. However, it is also true that on hypothesis A, the likelihood of B is very low, as the vast majority of unguided processes don’t generate objective nested hierarchies.

My third point is that KeithS’s argument assumes that the genetic and morphological features on the basis of which living things are classified into objective nested hierarchies were generated by the same process as the (unguided, Markovian) processes which generates the branches in the hierarchies. This is unlikely, even on a standard evolutionary view: features take time to evolve, and therefore would presumably have appeared at some time subsequent to the branch nodes themselves. Thus it could well be the case that while unguided processes explain the existence of objective nested hierarchies in the living world, guided processes are required to explain some or all of the features in these hierarchies.

My fourth point is that KeithS’s exclusion of the origin of life from his argument limits the force of his conclusion. At most, he can argue that objective nested hierarchies are best explained by unguided processes; but that is not the same as saying that living things themselves are best explained by these processes, or that the origin of life is due to an unguided process.

Finally, I’d like to point out that KeithS’s argument against Dr. Douglas Axe is factually mistaken. Nowhere in his paper, “The Case Against a Neo-Darwinian Origin of Protein Folds” does Dr. Axe make the argument KeithS imputes to him.

My time at the Internet cafe is up, so I shall stop here.

Comments
F/N: In a pause, I decided to go back in and add a few illustrations and links to today's FTR, here. Let's see if the objectors to design can answer on the merits to the OOL gap, the issue that FSCO/I is about finding shorelines of islands of function in huge config spaces . . . and yes requisites of tightly coupled correctly organised interacting components to achieve function lead directly to the islands pattern . . . and this holds first at OOL the root of the tree of life. But it then extends across the tree, insofar as a branching tree model is applicable. So, the premise that CV + NS --> DWIM can account for branching tree macro evo is on the table from the root on up. Nope, we don't spot you that claimed power of your naturalistic mechanisms, show that they are up to the job of creating FSCO/I required at the root and for major body plan branches. Minor adaptations like finch beaks or blindness in cave fishes or the like don't count. KF PS: The darwinism 6000 word essay challenge, after 2 years, is still open . . . the composite I had to cobble together a year ago was grossly inadequate and earlier both Wiki and Theobald failed the tests of sitting in for the empty chair. (Which, newbies, gives some of the backstory for the sort of namecalling smears and general trollish nastiness we saw in the past few days targetting us here at UD.)kairosfocus
November 5, 2014
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Douglas Theobald: While there currently is absolutely no scientific evidence for such an idea, gradual Divine direction of evolution is indeed consistent and compatible with common descent. That is correct. The evidence from the nested hierarchy strongly supports common descent, however, the evidence doesn't directly impact whether that process is guided or not. For instance, here's a simple tree structure that is guided: http://etc.usf.edu/clippix/pix/small-manicured-tree-at-the-morikami-japanese-garden_medium.jpg What we can say is that the evidence strongly supports that the branching process is *intrinsic*. Other evidence has to be marshaled to explain the shape of the tree. vjtorley: The first hypothesis is indeed well-supported by the evidence, as the only known processes that specifically generate unique, nested, hierarchical patterns are branching evolutionary processes. Of course, we could suppose a designer with an inordinate fondness for beetles nested hierarchies, but that is a scientifically vacuous claim unless you ascribe testable properties to the designer that imply such a fondness. mahuna: If you look at airplanes or cars, machines designed by the same engineer look a LOT alike. Vehicles don't form a nested hierarchy. bornagain77: I would like to point out, once again, that Darwin’s tree of life is not supported by either the fossil record or genetic evidence. "The first hypothesis is indeed well-supported by the evidence"Zachriel
November 5, 2014
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(my apologies in advance if I'm about to make the thread drift off too far from the OP: I'll understand if you want to curtail this digression) mahuna @14 -
So if we accept The Theory of Intelligent Design, then tree-like structures can be explained by a Designer exploring one basic design, getting bored with the options inherent in that basic design, and then starting a fresh design that uses the same basic frame and powerplant.
I'm interpret you as saying that an intelligent designer can mimic evolution, which is fine. But then how would you falsify the theory of intelligent design?Bob O'H
November 5, 2014
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I would like to point out, once again, that Darwin's tree of life is not supported by either the fossil record or genetic evidence. In other words, the empirical evidence itself, when taken at face value, away from all the rhetoric and 'statistical analysis', does not support Universal Common Descent. First and foremost, as Dr. Wells points out in this following video,,,
Cambrian Explosion Ruins Darwin's Tree of Life (2 minutes in 24 hour day) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQKxkUb_AAg
,,,Darwin predicted that minor differences (diversity) between species would gradually appear first and then the differences would grow larger (disparity) between species as time went on. i.e. universal common descent as depicted in Darwin's tree of life. What Darwin predicted should be familiar to everyone and is easily represented in the following graph.,,,
The Theory - Diversity precedes Disparity - graph http://www.veritas-ucsb.org/JOURNEY/IMAGES/F.gif
But that 'tree pattern' that Darwin predicted is not what is found in the fossil record. The fossil record reveals that disparity (the greatest differences) precedes diversity (the smaller differences), which is the exact opposite pattern for what Darwin's theory predicted.
The Actual Fossil Evidence- Disparity precedes Diversity - graph http://www.veritas-ucsb.org/JOURNEY/IMAGES/G.gif Timeline graphic on Cambrian Explosion from 'Darwin's Doubt' (Disparity preceding Diversity) http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/07/its_darwins_dou074341.html
Moreover, there are 'yawning chasms' in the 'morphological space' between the phyla which suddenly appeared in the Cambrian Explosion,,,
"Over the past 150 years or so, paleontologists have found many representatives of the phyla that were well-known in Darwin’s time (by analogy, the equivalent of the three primary colors) and a few completely new forms altogether (by analogy, some other distinct colors such as green and orange, perhaps). And, of course, within these phyla, there is a great deal of variety. Nevertheless, the analogy holds at least insofar as the differences in form between any member of one phylum and any member of another phylum are vast, and paleontologists have utterly failed to find forms that would fill these yawning chasms in what biotechnologists call “morphological space.” In other words, they have failed to find the paleolontogical equivalent of the numerous finely graded intermediate colors (Oedleton blue, dusty rose, gun barrel gray, magenta, etc.) that interior designers covet. Instead, extensive sampling of the fossil record has confirmed a strikingly discontinuous pattern in which representatives of the major phyla stand in stark isolation from members of other phyla, without intermediate forms filling the intervening morphological space." Stephen Meyer - Darwin’s Doubt (p. 70)
Moreover, this top down pattern in the fossil record, which is the complete opposite pattern as Darwin predicted for the fossil record, is not only found in the Cambrian Explosion, but this 'top down', disparity preceding diversity, pattern is found in the fossil record subsequent to the Cambrian explosion as well.
Scientific study turns understanding about evolution on its head – July 30, 2013 Excerpt: evolutionary biologists,,, looked at nearly one hundred fossil groups to test the notion that it takes groups of animals many millions of years to reach their maximum diversity of form. Contrary to popular belief, not all animal groups continued to evolve fundamentally new morphologies through time. The majority actually achieved their greatest diversity of form (disparity) relatively early in their histories. ,,,Dr Matthew Wills said: “This pattern, known as ‘early high disparity’, turns the traditional V-shaped cone model of evolution on its head. What is equally surprising in our findings is that groups of animals are likely to show early-high disparity regardless of when they originated over the last half a billion years. This isn’t a phenomenon particularly associated with the first radiation of animals (in the Cambrian Explosion), or periods in the immediate wake of mass extinctions.”,,, Author Martin Hughes, continued: “Our work implies that there must be constraints on the range of forms within animal groups, and that these limits are often hit relatively early on. Co-author Dr Sylvain Gerber, added: “A key question now is what prevents groups from generating fundamentally new forms later on in their evolution.,,, http://phys.org/news/2013-07-scientific-evolution.html “In virtually all cases a new taxon appears for the first time in the fossil record with most definitive features already present, and practically no known stem-group forms.” TS Kemp - Fossils and Evolution,– Curator of Zoological Collections, Oxford University, Oxford Uni Press, p246, 1999 “What is missing are the many intermediate forms hypothesized by Darwin, and the continual divergence of major lineages into the morphospace between distinct adaptive types.” Robert L Carroll (born 1938) – vertebrate paleontologist who specialises in Paleozoic and Mesozoic amphibians etc.. etc.. etc..
Thus, contrary to the keith s's claim that the fossil record supports Universal Common Descent as is predicted by Darwin's theory 'trillions of times better' than any theory of Intelligent Design, the fact of the matter is that the fossil evidence itself reveals keith s's claim to be bogus! As well, the genetic evidence offers no support for keith s's claim for Universal Common Descent as it is predicted by Darwin's theory: Casey Luskin did an overview of the genetic evidence here:
Logged Out – Scientists Can’t Find Darwin’s “Tree of Life” Anywhere in Nature by Casey Luskin – Winter 2013 Excerpt: the (fossil) record shows that major groups of animals appeared abruptly, without direct evolutionary precursors. Because biogeography and fossils have failed to bolster common descent, many evolutionary scientists have turned to molecules—the nucleotide and amino acid sequences of genes and proteins—to establish a phylogenetic tree of life showing the evolutionary relationships between all living organisms.,,, Many papers have noted the prevalence of contradictory molecule-based phylogenetic trees. For instance: • A 1998 paper in Genome Research observed that “different proteins generate different phylogenetic tree[s].”6 • A 2009 paper in Trends in Ecology and Evolution acknowledged that “evolutionary trees from different genes often have conflicting branching patterns.”7 • A 2013 paper in Trends in Genetics reported that “the more we learn about genomes the less tree-like we find their evolutionary history to be.”8 Perhaps the most candid discussion of the problem came in a 2009 review article in New Scientist titled “Why Darwin Was Wrong about the Tree of Life.”9 The author quoted researcher Eric Bapteste explaining that “the holy grail was to build a tree of life,” but “today that project lies in tatters, torn to pieces by an onslaught of negative evidence.” According to the article, “many biologists now argue that the tree concept is obsolete and needs to be discarded.”,,, Syvanen succinctly summarized the problem: “We’ve just annihilated the tree of life. It’s not a tree any more, it’s a different topology entirely. What would Darwin have made of that?” ,,, “battles between molecules and morphology are being fought across the entire tree of life,” leaving readers with a stark assessment: “Evolutionary trees constructed by studying biological molecules often don’t resemble those drawn up from morphology.”10,,, A 2012 paper noted that “phylogenetic conflict is common, and [is] frequently the norm rather than the exception,” since “incongruence between phylogenies derived from morphological versus molecular analyses, and between trees based on different subsets of molecular sequences has become pervasive as datasets have expanded rapidly in both characters and species.”12,,, http://www.salvomag.com/new/articles/salvo27/logged-out.php etc.. etc..
Thus, despite keith s's 'black knight' impersonation, (which is quite good actually), when the evidence itself is looked at clearly, without trying to force the fossil or genetic evidence into any artificial 'statistical' model, (i.e. 'imaginary' model), the empirical evidence itself testifies very strongly against keith s's bogus claims for UCD as predicted by Darwin's theory.bornagain77
November 5, 2014
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I wouldn't push the "common descent" thing too far. We have too many examples, including whales and bats (and humans), where there is no known STRING of ancestors prior to the appearance of the species alive today or known from fossils. So, yes, we know from fossils that there were animals with backbones a very long time ago. And by simple calculation, we know which particular backboned animal is currently the oldest we have yet found. But that is entirely separate from an argument that proposes that humans (of which there has only ever been 1 species) have some direct and necessary link to ancient cave-dwelling saber-toothed wombats. If you look at airplanes or cars, machines designed by the same engineer look a LOT alike. The lineage of the Corvette is a popular example, but the A-7 Corsair II (made by Vought) looks a LOT like the F-8 Crusader (also made by Vought). And of course there is the problem for the design engineer of what powerplants, etc., are available while the machine is still in design. So if we accept The Theory of Intelligent Design, then tree-like structures can be explained by a Designer exploring one basic design, getting bored with the options inherent in that basic design, and then starting a fresh design that uses the same basic frame and powerplant.mahuna
November 5, 2014
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WJM: These days, there is the emergency of the day pressure. Though I just ponied up and had a long distance chat with my dad to tap his longstanding expertise on macro, fiscal policy & thought on business cycles. He added something I didn't know while we were chatting on Solow and tech-influenced growth -- J'can unis are now making strides in Computer Science and robotics . . . my fight on the future of tech edu curriculum in emerging native unis fifteen years ago is paying off and I think will tell long term; they need to lop off a couple of zeros on the J$ when it stabilises though so the Sangster "bill" will be about US$ 1 and the GWG coin, the dime, with the Busta 1 cent. (When I was a kid, a fav sweet was called the Busta and went for about that.) Wish I could write that phone call off as a business expense but he is not at arms-length. The developing development policy battle closer to where home base now is, means I don't have a lot of time for point by point exchanges at UD just now. But, I have taken time to provide backdrop stuff for what exchanges do happen surrounding the core ID issues -- and it is interesting to contrast visit statistics and the studious ignore and dismiss tactic. My thought remains, FSCO/I is pivotal, and it cuts hard on cell molecular biology, OOL and unfolding of body plans embryologically and in the tree of life. Notice in the linked FTR how Wiki has had to admit that it's not so clearly a classic tree anymore too. Which BTW means KS et al need to address their CV-NS model in the context of not quite cleanly rooted and branching trees. KFkairosfocus
November 5, 2014
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kf, As long as they are willing to post such nonsense, I'm happy to continue to point it out. I guess on the one hand letting them post here has the value of being able to expose them for the sake of onlookers. Unfortunately, we also have to put up with their Darwinian Debate Tactics & Disorders. I'm not really sure it's a good trade-off.William J Murray
November 5, 2014
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Keith #1, Your nonsense has been rebutted in the appropriate thread.Box
November 5, 2014
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And he keeps ignoring PCD....Andre
November 5, 2014
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F/N: I have taken time to address, here, the Theobald claims and the Wiki claims in the context of the now 2 years and one month plus pro-darwinism essay challenge, which on fair comment has never been cogently answered from the darwinist side. I did so by pulling together some previous discussions and links, as a point of reference for further discussion in threads such as this one. KF PS: WJM, you are dealing with an ideological circle of thought, the whole has to break down before it is going to be seen for what it is, as happened with Marxism.kairosfocus
November 5, 2014
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Theobald states:
The only known processes that specifically generate unique, nested, hierarchical patterns are branching evolutionary processes.
The problem is that it is those very evolutionary processes that are under debate; you cannot assume evolutionary processes are either natural or designed. Yet keiths claims that IF we assume natural forces capable of generating the nested hierarchy (assumedly) found in living systems, then natural forces are the best explanation for the nested hierarchy. However, assuming natural forces can produce the nested hierarchy is not the same as assuming that a nested hierarchy is the only biological system configuration natural forces are capable of producing. Keith's makes two entirely different sets of assumptions about the two categorical candidates. He assumes natural forces can produce the nested hierarchy configuration, and assumes that is the only configuration natural forces can produce. On the design side, kieths assumes that design can produce the nested hierarchy configuration and trillions of other configurations. His conclusion (which is still erroneous) is built into his assumptions, as I and others have pointed out several times.William J Murray
November 5, 2014
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keith s doesn't know what a nested hierarchy is let alone an objective nested hierarchy.Joe
November 5, 2014
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PS: I point to my FTR on the KS argument here, now updated with the point by point from 5 above.kairosfocus
November 5, 2014
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VJT: I'd note, on points: >> 1. We observe objective nested hierarchies (ONH)>> Not quite, the homology/ resemblance implies relationship by descent principle even at gross level (eyes, wings etc) leads to "except where it doesn't" and the diverse molecular trees undercut this claim. Diverse embryological development paths for obviously close creatures, also raise questions. Molecular structures and embryological development programs will be at least as important as gross ones. >>2. Unguided evolution explains ONH>> Begs the question of origin of FSCO/I on blind chance + mechanical necessity, in the teeth of strong evidence that the only observed source is design. So, we see a red herring and a question-begging assumption that plays to an indoctrinated gallery. Where origin/ source of FSCO/I is a bridge between OOL and origin of body plans requiring novel cell types, tissues, organs, arrangements and regulatory programs (esp. in embryological development). So, start at the root, OOL. No empirically grounded needle in haystack challenge plausible answer save design. How design is effected is secondary to that it credibly was effected. >>3. A designer explains ONH, but also a trillion alternatives.>> The word trillion is patently put in to rhetorically counter the fact that there are now -- thanks to the Internet -- trillions of cases in point of the observed source of FSCO/I, design; the only such observed source. That rhetorical device of distraction needs to be noted. The next issue is the second diversion, from design -- intelligently directed configuration -- detected on tested empirically reliable sign, to the rhetoric of the Designer is God and evocation of the train of thoughts, we fear, loathe and hate God and think of followers of God with contempt -- Dawkins' recent writings being exhibit A. Multiplied by the radical attempt to question-beggingly redefine science on a priori materialism, warping its inferences on the past of origins through demanding that we substitute for the longstanding inference on natural [= chance plus necessity] vs the ART-ificial [= intelligently configured] spoken of by Plato and Newton alike, to natural vs supernatural. Where the latter is caricatured and dismissed as beyond science. In fact, per empirically tested reliable signs, we routinely infer intelligently directed configuration on FSCO/I as sign -- no one here thinks posts in this thread came about by lucky noise instead. The difference being exerted on cases of origins boils down to ideologically motivated selective hyperskepticism. Next, tree-patterns shaped by design constraints and purposes are a commonplace pattern of designs. That is the existence of a treelike pattern is empirically known to be a result of design. Linked, there is the problem of systematically missing transitionals, known since Darwin's day. He hoped that future work would fill in but with 1/4 million species, millions of cases in museums and billions seen in the ground, the same pattern of distinct and separate forms without smooth incremental transitions remains. The idea of an organic incrementally branching pattern is projected unto the evidence not drawn out from it. But as those familiar with the problem of ideologically loaded misreading of situations backed by the fallacy of the closed mind know, undoing this error is very difficult. Psychologically, it normally takes breakdown, at personal or community level. Just ask former cultists and former Marxists willing to speak plainly. What is warranted, then, is just this: A designer explains ONH, but also a trillion alternatives And with that, the rest of the anti-design argument collapses. >>4. Both unguided evolution and a designer are capable of causing ONH.>> Therefore, there is no reason to use tree patterns (and note again the dynanmics challenges above) to try to distinguish the two. The argument collapses, pfft, like a stabbed tyre. >>Conclusion: Unguided evolution is a trillion times better at explaining ONH. >> This does not follow from the above chain of argument. As has been pointed out in several ways from several directions. It is time for KS et al to do some serious re-thinking. KFkairosfocus
November 5, 2014
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Keith S So the coin is loaded.... ONH/ONH (aka designed) The other is a trillion side dice with one ONH on it...... (also designed but for the sake of your argument lets ignore that) It lands on ONH and I have to guess? which one? Dice or coin? Well it would obviously be the coin that is loaded. The other one is only a 1 in a trillion chance....... so its unlikely.... But I know the loaded dice (designed one) will give me the outcome 100% of ONH side up every single time!Andre
November 5, 2014
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Keith S Even Dr Theobald disagrees with you lol!Andre
November 5, 2014
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Oh, and one other thing before I go to bed, Vincent. You wrote:
Finally, I’d like to point out that KeithS’s argument against Dr. Douglas Axe is factually mistaken. Nowhere in his paper, “The Case Against a Neo-Darwinian Origin of Protein Folds” does Dr. Axe make the argument KeithS imputes to him.
You're looking at the wrong paper. The argument I criticized is in a different Axe paper, co-authored with Ann Gauger: The Evolutionary Accessibility of New Enzyme Functions: A Case Study from the Biotin Pathway Talk to you later.keith s
November 5, 2014
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Thanks for your OP, Vincent. I'll comment more tomorrow, but for now, let me repost a comment I just made on the other thread:
Box, It’s astonishing to me that you still don’t get this, but let me try once more. Suppose you have two objects: 1. A coin with ONH stamped on both sides. 2. A trillion-sided die with ONH engraved on one and only one side. A friend of yours takes both objects into another room, out of your sight. She randomly picks one of the two objects and flips it. “I randomly picked one of the objects and flipped it, and it landed with ONH up,” she shouts to you. Your job is to guess which of the objects she flipped — the coin with ONH on both sides, or the trillion-sided die with ONH on only one side. If you can’t figure out the best answer, I’m afraid there’s little hope that you will ever understand my argument.
keith s
November 4, 2014
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