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Why KeithS’s bomb is a damp squib

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In this short post, I’d like to explain what’s wrong with KeithS’s argument for unguided evolution. The argument, in a nutshell, goes like this:

1. We observe objective nested hierarchies (ONH)
2. Unguided evolution explains ONH
3. A designer explains ONH, but also a trillion alternatives.
4. Both unguided evolution and a designer are capable of causing ONH.
Conclusion: Unguided evolution is a trillion times better at explaining ONH.

The first thing I’d like to point out is that while KeithS, in his post over at TSZ leans heavily on the evidence assembled by Dr. Douglas Theobald in his article, 29+ Evidences of Macroevolution, it is very odd that Dr. Theobald himself does not put forward this argument anywhere in his article. On the contrary, he expressly declares, in his reply to creationist Ashley Camp’s critique:

This is not to say that God could not have created species independently and miraculously, yet gradually. While there currently is absolutely no scientific evidence for such an idea, gradual Divine direction of evolution is indeed consistent and compatible with common descent.

It is possible for a theist to see the theory of common descent, and the hierarchy which it predicts, as a reflection of the Creator’s divine plan—much as Sir Isaac Newton saw his laws of motion, and the ellipses and parabolas which they predict, as evidence of the Creator’s hand in our universe…

In fact, no theological assumptions or arguments are made at all in the essay. The “29 Evidences” is not an argument against creation—it is the scientific argument for common descent, no more, no less…

I personally believe that an omnipotent, omniscient Creator could have created in any manner that he chose. For a theist, the pertinent question is not “what is an omnipotent Creator capable of?” but rather “how exactly did/does the Creator create?”. The first question is purely theological, and as such is left unaddressed in the “29 Evidences”; in contrast, the second question is one that science can answer (given the assumption of a Creator).

The second point I’d like to make – and here I’m basically restating a point that William J. Murray made earlier, in mathematical language – is that KeithS has misapplied Bayes’ Theorem, which states: P(A|B) = P(A).[P(B|A)/P(B)],
where A is a proposition and B is the supporting evidence,
P(A), the prior probability, is the initial degree of belief in A,
P(A|B), the conditional probability, is the degree of belief in A, having taken B into account, and
the quotient P(B|A)/P(B) represents the support B provides for A.

A better way of stating Bayes’ Theorem is to expand the denominator, P(B). We can say that P(B) is equal to [P(B|A).P(A))+(P(B|~A).P(~A)], since if B is true, then either A is also true or A is false (and thus ~A is true). Hence:
P(A|B) = [P(A).P(B|A)]/[P(B|A).P(A))+(P(B|~A).P(~A)]
Where P(~A) is the probability of the initial degree of belief against A, or 1-P(A)
P(B|~A) is the degree of belief in B, given that the proposition A is false.

The problem is that KeithS has conflated two hypotheses: the hypothesis of common descent (which is very well-supported by the evidence that objective nested hierarchies exist in living things), and the hypothesis of unguided design (which he also claims is well-supported by the evidence that objective nested hierarchies exist in living things).

The first hypothesis is indeed well-supported by the evidence, as the only known processes that specifically generate unique, nested, hierarchical patterns are branching evolutionary processes. The probability that any other process would generate such hierarchies is vanishingly low.

But if KeithS wishes to argue against intelligently guided evolution, then the two alternative hypotheses he needs to consider are not:
A: a branching evolutionary process (also known as a Markov process) generated the objective nested hierarchies we find in living things; and
~A: an Intelligent Designer generated these objective nested hierarchies,

but instead:

A: an unguided process generated the objective nested hierarchies we find in living things; and
~A: an intelligently guided process generated these objective nested hierarchies.

The point KeithS makes in his essay is that on hypothesis ~A, the likelihood of B (objective nested hierarchies in living things) is very low. However, it is also true that on hypothesis A, the likelihood of B is very low, as the vast majority of unguided processes don’t generate objective nested hierarchies.

My third point is that KeithS’s argument assumes that the genetic and morphological features on the basis of which living things are classified into objective nested hierarchies were generated by the same process as the (unguided, Markovian) processes which generates the branches in the hierarchies. This is unlikely, even on a standard evolutionary view: features take time to evolve, and therefore would presumably have appeared at some time subsequent to the branch nodes themselves. Thus it could well be the case that while unguided processes explain the existence of objective nested hierarchies in the living world, guided processes are required to explain some or all of the features in these hierarchies.

My fourth point is that KeithS’s exclusion of the origin of life from his argument limits the force of his conclusion. At most, he can argue that objective nested hierarchies are best explained by unguided processes; but that is not the same as saying that living things themselves are best explained by these processes, or that the origin of life is due to an unguided process.

Finally, I’d like to point out that KeithS’s argument against Dr. Douglas Axe is factually mistaken. Nowhere in his paper, “The Case Against a Neo-Darwinian Origin of Protein Folds” does Dr. Axe make the argument KeithS imputes to him.

My time at the Internet cafe is up, so I shall stop here.

Comments
KeithS
The question is simple: If the first three hypotheses are ridiculous, then why isn’t the fourth one ridiculous? It uses the same bad logic, after all.
The first three examples do not reflect ID's argument. You are simply beating your own strawman to death. No more needs to be said about it. However, if you would like to discuss it further, I will be happy to take up each strawman one at a time.StephenB
November 7, 2014
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Vishnu: In my example, an extremely sophisticated, loaded-with-functional-information, goal-oriented process was involved. The branching process is algorithmically simple. With evolutionary history, as with the tree, the specifics of the branching process can be complex and convoluted. For instance, the human male y-chromosome forms a nested hierarchy. From that, we can infer branching descent. The specifics of human reproduction and child-rearing are highly complex, but the inference to the branching process is the same as it is for evolutionary branching. Vishnu: The trees are programmed (if you will) to evolve within certain constrains to an outcome that is highly predictable at the more macro levels, with “niche filling” details randomly determined. In this case, the leaves bend towards the light. (It's interesting to note, that organisms tends to bend towards unoccupied niches.) However, Theobald's results don't distinguish between that and other mechanisms that may direct the shape of the tree.Zachriel
November 7, 2014
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Zachriel, mostly non-responsive to my arguments. Noted.
Arranging by size doesn’t result in a nested hierarchy.
Yep. That was the point. Neither does arranging by organic traits that have undergone heavy losses or reversals.
Humans would be nested with organisms with mammary glands which would be nested with organisms with vertebrae which would be nested with organisms with crania, which would be nested with organisms with eukaryotic cell structure. This is a non-trivial correlation of traits that is explained by branching descent.
Why are you describing the traits of humans? Irrelevant to the argument. It's as if you believe the natural selection fairies were destined to maintain the crania for all time once it had manifested. This is Darwinian mysticism.
Indeed, we don’t expect an orderly fossil record. However, each fossil fits the nested ordering.
No they don't. For example, advanced tetrapod trackways appear "tens of millions of years" before the fish-a-pod body types they are supposed to nest in. Which brings us back to the point. Nested branching does not predict a corresponding fossil record. Nested branching also predicts and accommodates a non-corresponding fossil record.lifepsy
November 7, 2014
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Keith #212: Not at all. I am not assuming that the designer is omnipotent, or indifferent, or random.
Yes you are.
Keith #212: I am doing exactly the opposite by assuming none of these things, nor their opposites.
Yes you do. Only an omnipotent and indifferent designer would warrant your idea that all trillions of logical possibilities of the ordering of life are equally probable to happen if they are created.
Keith #212: If I have no basis for making particular assumptions about the designer, then I have no basis for favoring (or disfavoring) the ONH outcome versus the other outcomes.
Indeed! You have no basis for your assumptions. Do you get it now? You are not allowed to make baseless assumptions about the designer(s). Therfore you have no argument.
Keith #212: In other words, I must grant equal probabilities to all of the possible outcomes, because I have no reason to favor some over others.
No you must not, because you have no grounding for assuming that all probabilities are available to the designer. Sorry, but we have no way of knowing. Nor can we ascertain the reasons of the designer. The question by Zachriel #199, ...
Why would the designer choose a nested hierarchy arrangement rather than some other arrangement?
... is simply the wrong one. Such a question, assumes that the designer(s) can choose from several options – which we do not know. And on top of that it assumes that we can penetrate the mind of the designer in order to ascertain her/his/their/its reasons. This is clearly absurd.
Keith #212: By that reasoning, we also cannot assume that the designer has (or had) the capabilities required to produce the pattern of life that we see. Therefore, the ID hypothesis is untenable.
Not at all. We do not assume anything. This is not how ID works. If we were to observe patterns in life - or the ordering of life - that are best explained by design then we infer design. We do not assume design.Box
November 7, 2014
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Barry,
Yes, he has ignored refutations of his bomb, hand waved them away and carried on as if nothing happened. And if he does it again commenters here will be free to point out the flaws in his arguments. Or not. I tend to ignore him.
It's safer than trying to refute me. But come on, Barry, you're the President of UD. It says so at the bottom of this very page. Shouldn't the President of UD be able to handle a challenge from a feckless, bombless evolutionist? The questions are here. The challenge is:
Share your answers with us. Did your answers to the four questions differ? If so, please explain exactly why. And ponder this: If you are an ID supporter, then you are making exactly the same mistake as Bob does in the four examples above, using the same broken logic. Isn’t that a little embarrassing? It might be time to rethink your position.
keith s
November 7, 2014
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Zachriel: Vishnu (quoting): But only God can make a tree. Precisely. A simple principle explains the nested hierarchy of leaves, a branching process.
A principle may be simple. But its implementation quite another matter. In my example, an extremely sophisticated, loaded-with-functional-information, goal-oriented process was involved. The trees are programmed (if you will) to evolve within certain constrains to an outcome that is highly predictable at the more macro levels, with "niche filling" details randomly determined.Vishnu
November 7, 2014
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lifepsy,
So I ask again, in reference to your own argument, how is unguided evolution trillions of times better at explaining the evidence if it can also explain trillions of other opposing outcomes where the ONH signal has become masked beyond recognition?
Please stop telling me what my argument is. I keep reminding you that we are talking about actual biological evolution of the kind we observe on earth. We are not talking about some hypothetical form of evolution on the planet Zargon in some alternate universe, nor are we talking about some abstract idea of unguided evolution. We are talking about actual biological evolution on the planet earth. We know, from actual observations, that mutation rates are low and that inheritance is primarily vertical, particularly in multicellular life forms. We know, from actual observations in real time, that evolution produces objective nested hierarchies. See the Theobald quote in this comment. These are not assumptions; they are observations. Please rein in your imagination and deal with my actual argument, which is that unguided evolution of the kind I have specified is trillions of times better than ID at explaining the existence of the ONH.keith s
November 7, 2014
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LoL! @ Zachriel- The leaves are part of the nested hierarchy of the tree.Joe
November 7, 2014
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Bob is out hunting with a top-notch mainstream geologist. They are deep into the New England woods and the geologist points out different rock formations to pass the time. As they were heading to an unknown area they come across a 3 foot high wall-type structure of stones, millions of stones stretching North to South. The wall top is flat and secure enough to walk on. The sides of the wall are also relatively flat with an occasional protrusion. 1/2 mile North of that position they find another wall exactly perpendicular to the first wall, heading west. It is roughly the same height and also has a flat top and flat sides. Bob says it must have been early pioneers clearing the land and making walls with what they plowed and dug up. The geologist laughed and said there aren't any houses around, no tools and no human remains. These are just rocks and mother nature produces those in abundance. We know this are was visited by glaciers in the past and this is nothing but a glacial deposit. Who has the better hypothesis?Joe
November 7, 2014
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Vishnu (quoting): But only God can make a tree. Precisely. A simple principle explains the nested hierarchy of leaves, a branching process.Zachriel
November 7, 2014
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Keith s:
Do you understand the principle of indifference? If I have no basis for making particular assumptions about the designer, then I have no basis for favoring (or disfavoring) the ONH outcome versus the other outcomes. In other words, I must grant equal probabilities to all of the possible outcomes, because I have no reason to favor some over others.
This is another Darwinist canard. A scientific hypothesis, by definition, is an assumption that can be tested. We have a valid reason for ascribing intelligence to the designers because we routinely observe that it takes intelligence to design irreducibly complex objects. We posit that all designers are intelligent by definition and we look for the signs of intelligence. We know a lot about intelligence by observing humans. Intelligent entities can predict the outcomes of their designs. This ability is the sine qua non of intelligent design.Mapou
November 7, 2014
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lifepsy: Anything that exists can be “naturally arranged”. Anything can be artificially arranged. lifepsy: Cars can be naturally arranged by chassis dimensions. Splattered paint can be naturally arranged by the size of each splatter. There is no best-fit classification for vehicles. Arranging by size doesn't result in a nested hierarchy. lifepsy: Focus on nested hierarchy discussions are where the evolutionist finally goes when no real tangible evidence has turned up. The nested hierarchy has been fundamental to evolutionary theory since Darwin. It has spawned entire fields of study. lifepsy: Sure there would be correlations, but that doesn’t help you in distinguishing groups or identifying what nests within what. Sure it does. We just pointed to one. Humans would be nested with organisms with mammary glands which would be nested with organisms with vertebrae which would be nested with organisms with crania, which would be nested with organisms with eukaryotic cell structure. This is a non-trivial correlation of traits that is explained by branching descent. lifepsy: Fossils don’t help you for a similar and simple reason: Branching descent does not necessarily predict an orderly fossil record. Indeed, we don't expect an orderly fossil record. However, each fossil fits the nested ordering.Zachriel
November 7, 2014
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Zachriel: You might want to be specific.
The last word in the poem specifies the nested hierarchies I'm talking about. Fairly obviously, I think.Vishnu
November 7, 2014
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So if we come up with 3 ridiculous scenarios with an evolutionist as the patsy, and then throw in keith s' 4th scenario, do we win? :razz:Joe
November 7, 2014
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Box: That is exactly the point I’m trying to get across. Ascribing specific properties to the posited designer, like ‘omnipotence’ and ‘indifference’ (see post #195), is without any ground. So, one should not do that. We agree. That's why it's scientifically vacuous. You can explain any pattern as the whims of the gods. Box: The ID position would be that the “simple physical principle” finds its explanation in a designer. Sure, but the orbits themselves are the result of that simple physical principle, rather than an inordinate fondness for beetles ellipses whereby the desiger moves each planet continuously into a particular curve by whim. — just like the nested hierarchy is the result of a simple biological principle, branching descent. Let's try to draw a more careful distinction. Theobald's study strongly supports branching descent as *intrinsic* to the history of life. It does not show whether that process was set in motion by a designer, or not. Nor does it show that the process isn't pruned or shaped by a designer, or not. But it does show that there is an intrinsic branching process. Vishnu: I am looking out of my office window right now, contemplating nested hierarchies. I spy a half dozen objects that exhibit nested hierarchies You might want to be specific. Mapou: learn through trial and error and are therefore not omniscient. Evolution is usually seen as a type of trial and error process. Mapou: There are processes that are so computationally intractable that the only way to figure them out is to let them run their course. You seem to be talking about branching descent.Zachriel
November 7, 2014
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Zachriel 199
lifepsy: If you cannot distinguish actual different groups, then you cannot assemble them into branching orders and nested hierarchies. The answer is right there, in the quote you provided from Darwin, “nevertheless a natural classification, or at least a natural arrangement, would be possible“.
That's not an answer. Anything that exists can be "naturally arranged". Cars can be naturally arranged by chassis dimensions. Splattered paint can be naturally arranged by the size of each splatter.
Indeed, if we had all the organisms that have ever (posited) to have lived, then our evidence for common descent would be even stronger.
Agreed. But you wouldn't need all of the organisms. Even a fraction of actual unambiguous smooth gradations between unique body plans and it would actually look like common descent had happened, instead of being largely the product of the evolutionist's imagination as it is today. All this talk about nested hierarchies wouldn't matter since you'd actually have tangible evidence. Focus on nested hierarchy discussions are where the evolutionist finally goes when no real tangible evidence has turned up. It's what made taxonomists so initially reluctant to embrace cladistics. Now they have no choice. It's the bottom of the barrel.
What’s really odd about your statement is that your claiming that if we found what the theory says we would find, it would falsify the theory. That doesn’t even begin to make sense.
Nah, just a misunderstanding on your part. It wouldn't falsify the theory, that's the whole point. An outcome completely opposing the one you offer as evidence (lack of a recognizable nested hierarchy) would not falsify the theory. It would be accommodated as an assumed nested hierarchy that had its signal masked by past evolutionary processes.
There would still be correlations; for instance, having mammary glands would still imply a four-chamber heart and a cranium.
Sure there would be correlations, but that doesn't help you in distinguishing groups or identifying what nests within what. With loss/reversal of traits, correlations could just as easily be weakening the nested hierarchy signal as strengthening it. You would potentially have countless gradations both towards and away from mammary glands, both towards and away from a four-chambered heart, and all other associated traits. Each one of those gradation points would have their own multi-directional trajectories through morphospace. It would be fractal. By what rule of evolution should a four-chambered heart immutably persist until mammary glands come to nest within it? Why should a cranium immutably persist until both other traits come to nest within it? There are no such rules, and any number of traits could be reversed or lost before other traits are added. Not to mention convergence potentially cropping up everywhere.
There would still be nesting and there would still be hierarchy,
Nope. Not necessarily a recognizable one. We could say that there might always be fragments of identifiable nesting, but any recognizable semblance of an overall objective nested hierarchy could easily be lost.
even though the edges of any larger groupings would be blurry.
Sorry, but you need to first distinguish groupings before you can find the edges of groupings. That's just common sense.
Cladistics would proceed apace, though, as it does not depend on arbitrary groupings.
Cladistics only maintains coherency when working with distinguishable groupings. Sure Cladistics could "proceed", but it would return mostly incoherent results. You would only get sensible results from phenetics, or measuring distances between any chosen points. But this would not resolve a nested hierarchy.
lifepsy: Character traits don’t come with little tags that say how long they took to “evolve” No, but the hypothesis of branching descent provides a relative ordering, something we can compare to other evidence, such as fossils.
Fossils don't help you for a similar and simple reason: Branching descent does not necessarily predict an orderly fossil record. Even today we have instances where evolutionists have to say that ancestors didn't fossilize until after their descendents - that is the supergroup did not fossilize until after the subgroup. Again, at best you can say branching descent accommodates an orderly fossil record, but it doesn't specifically predict it.
The evidence from natural ordering does, however, strongly support branching descent.
Nope. Back to the central problem - Evolution theory/branching descent can accommodate way too many opposing outcomes. Nothing we see today is specifically predicted by it.lifepsy
November 7, 2014
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Box,
First you assume an omnipotent designer, and now you want to argue that the principle of indifference applies wrt the choice of the designer … So, you are saying that we should accept the assumption that an omnipotent designer is completely indifferent about the ordering of life and that he based his decision on the role of a trillion-sided die.
Not at all. I am not assuming that the designer is omnipotent, or indifferent, or random. I am doing exactly the opposite by assuming none of these things, nor their opposites. Do you understand the principle of indifference? If I have no basis for making particular assumptions about the designer, then I have no basis for favoring (or disfavoring) the ONH outcome versus the other outcomes. In other words, I must grant equal probabilities to all of the possible outcomes, because I have no reason to favor some over others.
Ascribing specific properties to the posited designer, like ‘omnipotence’ and ‘indifference’ (see post #195), is without any ground. So, one should not do that.
By that reasoning, we also cannot assume that the designer has (or had) the capabilities required to produce the pattern of life that we see. Therefore, the ID hypothesis is untenable. Congratulations, Box. Your own (bad) logic has ruled out ID.keith s
November 7, 2014
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Box @202 Excellent comment. The old "the designer is omnipotent and omniscient" canard is a recurring theme in Darwinist arguments. The very idea of intelligence assumes that intelligent entities, regardless of how advanced they are, learn through trial and error and are therefore not omniscient. There are processes that are so computationally intractable that the only way to figure them out is to let them run their course. The creation of life on earth took billions of years because the ecological consequences of introducing self-replicating organisms in an environment can only be known by actually doing it and waiting to see what happens afterwards. I suspect that many extinction events in the distant past happened by design, not chance.Mapou
November 7, 2014
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I am looking out of my office window right now, contemplating nested hierarchies. I spy a half dozen objects that exhibit nested hierarchies. I am certain that various random factors came into play while these nested hierarchies were being developed. I am certain that at the beginning of their development nobody could have predicted precisely where each "data point" would have appeared, yet general predictions at a certain threshold would have been "in the ballpark", so to speak. No sane person would disagree that the physical processes that generated these nested hierarchies are highly specified. One could say that these nested hierarchies evolved randomly, due to exposure to various features of their environment, within certain constraints determined by the extremely sophisticated physical processes from which the nested hierarchies sprang. Then I recall... "Poems are made by fools like me, But only God can make a tree." --KilmerVishnu
November 7, 2014
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keith s- your 4th scenario is bogus because the evolutionary biologist cannot support his claim. It is nothing but a bald assertion. And only in your mind does Bob use the same logic in all 4 scenarios.Joe
November 7, 2014
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I retract my claim in post #207. Keith post #206 bears testimony to the fact that he does not ignore the existence of Kairosfocus' post #193. Now let's see if what he says holds any water.Box
November 7, 2014
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Keith #205: The embarrassing question is: If IDers recognize the first three hypotheses as ridiculous, why don’t they acknowledge the fourth one — the ID hypothesis — as equally ridiculous? It uses the same bad logic. It’s an awkward question. That is why UDers are afraid to face my challenge.
And yet, in post #193, Kairosfocus not only faces your "challenge", but also thoroughly takes it apart. As usual you have chosen to ignore this.Box
November 7, 2014
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kairosfocus, Your #189 is bizarre and has nothing to do with our topic here. Regarding your #193: Though your comment is lengthy, I note that you have failed to address the challenge, which was simply to answer the four questions and justify any differences in the answers you gave.
q –> the trick here is to get you to nod yes, and to mock all along based on strawman caricatures, then you will nod at the end yes without realising you have been had.
There's no trick. Of course you will regard the first three hypotheses as ridiculous. Who wouldn't? The question is simple: If the first three hypotheses are ridiculous, then why isn't the fourth one ridiculous? It uses the same bad logic, after all.keith s
November 7, 2014
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Steve,
1. No IDer claims there is a streambed designer. Strike one. 2. Friend has only performed tests and made no theory. nothing to compare. Strike two. 3. No IDer claims angels push planets or atoms around. That is just your lame cartoon caricature of what you imagine IDers think. Strike three.
Steve, You have completely missed the point of my challenge. Of course IDers don't believe in streambed Designers, explosion Designers, Rain Fairies, and angels that push the planets around. Those are ridiculous hypotheses, and every IDer knows it. The embarrassing question is: If IDers recognize the first three hypotheses as ridiculous, why don't they acknowledge the fourth one -- the ID hypothesis -- as equally ridiculous? It uses the same bad logic. It's an awkward question. That is why UDers are afraid to face my challenge.keith s
November 7, 2014
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I'd like to give this bomb thing a try. I'm thinking it will go something like this: ... Phin's BOMB: IDCritic is a loony, therefore his "bomb" is a damp squid. IDCritic: That's a non sequitur. It simply does not follow that my mental state necessarily precludes me from making a true and valid point. Phin: No one can lay a finger on my BOMB. They don't even want to address it. IDCritic: What are you talking about? I just refuted it. I might add that it is also an ad hominem. You need to address the points I make. They stand or fall on their own merits. Phin: IDCritic is desperate to defuse my BOMB! Look how desperate he is! IDCritic: If you were capable of embarrassment, you'd be embarrassed right now. Phin: I'm invincible! IDCritic: You're a loony. ... Am I doing it right?Phinehas
November 7, 2014
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Joe @ 192:
keith s plans a lie-filled, cowardly post for later today.
Barry
Joe your 192 is beyond the pale. This is your last warning.
Joe:
Barry, my apologies but watch as what I posted becomes reality. keith s has either ignored all refutations of his “bomb”, hand waved them away, and carried on as if nothing has happened. My post was a reflection of all of his actions and comments.
Joe, you are missing the point. Yes, he has ignored refutations of his bomb, hand waved them away and carried on as if nothing happened. And if he does it again commenters here will be free to point out the flaws in his arguments. Or not. I tend to ignore him. That is all beside the point of my warning. Keep it about the issues. I know that is very hard and I sometimes slip myself. But sometimes it seems like “vituperative” is all you do. Our opponents have noticed this too, and they are calling us hypocrites for not dealing with it. That criticism is not entirely unfair. Again, last warning.Barry Arrington
November 7, 2014
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Zachriel #199,
Box: Your assumption that the designer can produce all of them implies the implicit attribution of omnipotence to the designer.
Zachriel #199: The problem is that without ascribing specific properties to the posited designer, there is no way to determine the entailments.
That is exactly the point I’m trying to get across. Ascribing specific properties to the posited designer, like 'omnipotence' and 'indifference' (see post #195), is without any ground. So, one should not do that.
Zachriel #199: As such, it’s a scientifically vacuous claim.
Attributing omnipotence and indifference to the designer(s) has no scientific base whatsoever.
Zachriel #199: Why would the designer choose a nested hierarchy arrangement rather than some other arrangement?
This question, assumes that the designer(s) can choose from several options - which we do not know. And on top of that it assumes that we can penetrate the mind of the designer in order to ascertain her/his/their/its reasons. This is clearly absurd.
Zachriel #199: The designer may have her angels push the planets in elliptical orbits, or it may be that the elliptical orbits are indicators of some simple physical principle. While the former is not subject to testing, the latter can be tested a number of different ways.
I must say that this is straw man of a disappointingly low level – the kind of thing that is right up Keith’s alley. The ID position would be that the “simple physical principle” finds its explanation in a designer.Box
November 7, 2014
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Barry, my apologies but watch as what I posted becomes reality. keith s has either ignored all refutations of his "bomb", hand waved them away, and carried on as if nothing has happened. My post was a reflection of all of his actions and comments.Joe
November 7, 2014
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Joe your 192 is beyond the pale. This is your last warning.Barry Arrington
November 7, 2014
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lifepsy: You’re merely describing the branching principle again, while I’m telling you that whether or not the nested hierarchy is generated in principle, the nested hierarchy signal itself may potentially be masked. We did address your point, but let's look at the rest of your specific objections. lifepsy: If you cannot distinguish actual different groups, then you cannot assemble them into branching orders and nested hierarchies. The answer is right there, in the quote you provided from Darwin, "nevertheless a natural classification, or at least a natural arrangement, would be possible". There would still be correlations; for instance, having mammary glands would still imply a four-chamber heart and a cranium. There would still be nesting and there would still be hierarchy, even though the edges of any larger groupings would be blurry. Cladistics would proceed apace, though, as it does not depend on arbitrary groupings. Indeed, if we had all the organisms that have ever (posited) to have lived, then our evidence for common descent would be even stronger. This is what happens when we find fossil organisms of extinct species. They often confound existing general classifications, but not the nested ordering due to the branching process itself. What's really odd about your statement is that your claiming that if we found what the theory says we would find, it would falsify the theory. That doesn't even begin to make sense. lifepsy: if these finest of intermediate links include heavy losses or reversal of traits, then the nested hierarchy signal is certainly confounded. This returns us to our previous comment. The nested hierarchy is not expected to be perfect, but there is a statistical relationship between the rate of change and the number of traits. We have evidence that reproduction tends to fidelity, that mutation is relatively rare compared to the size of genomes, and that the rate of evolution inferred from the fossil record is less than the observed rates of evolution in extant organisms. lifepsy: The conclusion is that the branching pattern of common descent is just as likely (if not more so) to result in a data scenario where traits are so blurred as to make the assembly of nested hierarchies impossible. No. It turns out that we have substantial evidence of extinction. Branching descent --> natural nested ordering Branching descent with extinction --> nested hierarchy Box: Does this branching principle conform with a top-down tree; as in BA77?s question? Theobald's paper doesn't address that question. However, the so-called top-down tree is called adaptive radiation, and is consistent with Theobald's results, as well as evolutionary theory generally. bornagain77: ‘let’s call it a draw shall we?’ You can call it what you like, but you said Theobald was wrong, but didn't provide any rebuttal. Mung: If we assume what we want to prove, we can prove what we want to assume! Actually, we have evidence concerning heredity, including rates of morphological and genetic change. Box: Your assumption that the designer can produce all of them implies the implicit attribution of omnipotence to the designer. The problem is that without ascribing specific properties to the posited designer, there is no way to determine the entailments. As such, it's a scientifically vacuous claim. Why would the designer choose a nested hierarchy arrangement rather than some other arrangement? (Of course, that question become moot when you start considering the temporal succession of fossils.) The designer may have her angels push the planets in elliptical orbits, or it may be that the elliptical orbits are indicators of some simple physical principle. While the former is not subject to testing, the latter can be tested a number of different ways. Similarly, we test branching descent each time we find a new organism, extant or extinct. But, if you insist, you can always ascribe each new result to a capricious god. "If one could conclude as to the nature of the Creator from a study of creation, it would appear that God has an inordinate fondness for stars and beetles the nested hierarchy." lifepsy: Character traits don’t come with little tags that say how long they took to “evolve” No, but the hypothesis of branching descent provides a relative ordering, something we can compare to other evidence, such as fossils. None of this addresses whether the process is guided or unguided, however. The evidence from natural ordering does, however, strongly support branching descent.Zachriel
November 7, 2014
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