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Why KeithS’s bomb is a damp squib

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In this short post, I’d like to explain what’s wrong with KeithS’s argument for unguided evolution. The argument, in a nutshell, goes like this:

1. We observe objective nested hierarchies (ONH)
2. Unguided evolution explains ONH
3. A designer explains ONH, but also a trillion alternatives.
4. Both unguided evolution and a designer are capable of causing ONH.
Conclusion: Unguided evolution is a trillion times better at explaining ONH.

The first thing I’d like to point out is that while KeithS, in his post over at TSZ leans heavily on the evidence assembled by Dr. Douglas Theobald in his article, 29+ Evidences of Macroevolution, it is very odd that Dr. Theobald himself does not put forward this argument anywhere in his article. On the contrary, he expressly declares, in his reply to creationist Ashley Camp’s critique:

This is not to say that God could not have created species independently and miraculously, yet gradually. While there currently is absolutely no scientific evidence for such an idea, gradual Divine direction of evolution is indeed consistent and compatible with common descent.

It is possible for a theist to see the theory of common descent, and the hierarchy which it predicts, as a reflection of the Creator’s divine plan—much as Sir Isaac Newton saw his laws of motion, and the ellipses and parabolas which they predict, as evidence of the Creator’s hand in our universe…

In fact, no theological assumptions or arguments are made at all in the essay. The “29 Evidences” is not an argument against creation—it is the scientific argument for common descent, no more, no less…

I personally believe that an omnipotent, omniscient Creator could have created in any manner that he chose. For a theist, the pertinent question is not “what is an omnipotent Creator capable of?” but rather “how exactly did/does the Creator create?”. The first question is purely theological, and as such is left unaddressed in the “29 Evidences”; in contrast, the second question is one that science can answer (given the assumption of a Creator).

The second point I’d like to make – and here I’m basically restating a point that William J. Murray made earlier, in mathematical language – is that KeithS has misapplied Bayes’ Theorem, which states: P(A|B) = P(A).[P(B|A)/P(B)],
where A is a proposition and B is the supporting evidence,
P(A), the prior probability, is the initial degree of belief in A,
P(A|B), the conditional probability, is the degree of belief in A, having taken B into account, and
the quotient P(B|A)/P(B) represents the support B provides for A.

A better way of stating Bayes’ Theorem is to expand the denominator, P(B). We can say that P(B) is equal to [P(B|A).P(A))+(P(B|~A).P(~A)], since if B is true, then either A is also true or A is false (and thus ~A is true). Hence:
P(A|B) = [P(A).P(B|A)]/[P(B|A).P(A))+(P(B|~A).P(~A)]
Where P(~A) is the probability of the initial degree of belief against A, or 1-P(A)
P(B|~A) is the degree of belief in B, given that the proposition A is false.

The problem is that KeithS has conflated two hypotheses: the hypothesis of common descent (which is very well-supported by the evidence that objective nested hierarchies exist in living things), and the hypothesis of unguided design (which he also claims is well-supported by the evidence that objective nested hierarchies exist in living things).

The first hypothesis is indeed well-supported by the evidence, as the only known processes that specifically generate unique, nested, hierarchical patterns are branching evolutionary processes. The probability that any other process would generate such hierarchies is vanishingly low.

But if KeithS wishes to argue against intelligently guided evolution, then the two alternative hypotheses he needs to consider are not:
A: a branching evolutionary process (also known as a Markov process) generated the objective nested hierarchies we find in living things; and
~A: an Intelligent Designer generated these objective nested hierarchies,

but instead:

A: an unguided process generated the objective nested hierarchies we find in living things; and
~A: an intelligently guided process generated these objective nested hierarchies.

The point KeithS makes in his essay is that on hypothesis ~A, the likelihood of B (objective nested hierarchies in living things) is very low. However, it is also true that on hypothesis A, the likelihood of B is very low, as the vast majority of unguided processes don’t generate objective nested hierarchies.

My third point is that KeithS’s argument assumes that the genetic and morphological features on the basis of which living things are classified into objective nested hierarchies were generated by the same process as the (unguided, Markovian) processes which generates the branches in the hierarchies. This is unlikely, even on a standard evolutionary view: features take time to evolve, and therefore would presumably have appeared at some time subsequent to the branch nodes themselves. Thus it could well be the case that while unguided processes explain the existence of objective nested hierarchies in the living world, guided processes are required to explain some or all of the features in these hierarchies.

My fourth point is that KeithS’s exclusion of the origin of life from his argument limits the force of his conclusion. At most, he can argue that objective nested hierarchies are best explained by unguided processes; but that is not the same as saying that living things themselves are best explained by these processes, or that the origin of life is due to an unguided process.

Finally, I’d like to point out that KeithS’s argument against Dr. Douglas Axe is factually mistaken. Nowhere in his paper, “The Case Against a Neo-Darwinian Origin of Protein Folds” does Dr. Axe make the argument KeithS imputes to him.

My time at the Internet cafe is up, so I shall stop here.

Comments
Keith #174: I posed a challenge in the other thread that only William was brave enough to address. Here is his attempt, and here is my rebuttal.
Keith fails to mention that his "rebuttal" has been torn to pieces by WJMurray here; one day before Keith's post #174.Box
November 7, 2014
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Keith S
Tomorrow, I plan to post a summary of all the attempted refutations of my argument, with explanations of why they fail. See y’all tomorrow.
Yawn. I've debunked your "coin/dice" analogy in post#1 for two days now and you absolutely refuse to address it, even when taking the time to respond to me. From what it appears, the underlying flawed logic behind the rest of your arguments has been effortlessly exposed as well. Over and over again. I guess tomorrow we can expect more of the same of you completely ignoring counter-arguments and repeating your bald assertions?lifepsy
November 7, 2014
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Keith S 172
Evolution — actual, observed evolution — proceeds gradually and with primarily vertical inheritance, and produces inferable objective nested hierarchies.
Nice deflection attempt. We're not talking about "observed unguided evolution"... we're specifically referring to recovering a signal of this supposed unguided evolution from the past when it could not be observed. This issue concerns not what you believe unguided evolution does, but what data it leaves behind to be studied. And you already partially conceded that the ONH signal of unguided evolution could become masked in the black knight thread
Keith S: If evolution were fast enough, or if there was enough horizontal transfer going on, then yes, of course the ONH signal would become unidentifiable.
Character traits don't come with little tags that say how long they took to "evolve", Keith. This must be inferred from the available data set. (and has historically been a great source of contention among evolutionists) Which brings us back full circle: If observable gradations between remaining character traits were too blurred and indistinct (as unguided evolution expects), and if there had been many losses and reversals of those traits, then the objective nested hierarchy signal would become unidentifiable. It's as simple as that. Unguided evolution/branching common descent, predicts scenarios other than an identifiable objective nested hierarchy. Now we refer back to Keith S main argument in #1
Suppose you have two objects: 1. A coin with ONH stamped on both sides. 2. A trillion-sided die with ONH engraved on one and only one side. A friend of yours takes both objects into another room, out of your sight. She randomly picks one of the two objects and flips it. “I randomly picked one of the objects and flipped it, and it landed with ONH up,” she shouts to you. Your job is to guess which of the objects she flipped — the coin with ONH on both sides, or the trillion-sided die with ONH on only one side.
But as we know, unguided evolution could produce patterns that lack the ONH signal. so in actuality it could have accommodated all sorts of faces on the "trillion sided die". So I ask again, in reference to your own argument, how is unguided evolution trillions of times better at explaining the evidence if it can also explain trillions of other opposing outcomes where the ONH signal has become masked beyond recognition? You dodged this in the other thread and you're dodging it here. Appealing to the presence of an objective nested hierarchy does not avert from your above flawed logic in assuming unguided evolution best explains it. At best you can say unguided evolution accommodates a recognizable objective nested hierarchy (as it does the opposite). But unfortunately that ranks you no higher than the IDers or Creationists for that matter.lifepsy
November 7, 2014
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Keith #172
Box: What it boils down to is this: you state that there are trillions of options available for a designer and that he/she/it could have chosen either one, but we simply have no way of knowing. There is no grounding for your claim.
Keith #172: Sure there is. There are trillions of logical possibilities, and we have no reason to rule any of them out.
No one rules them out. Indeed, there may be trillions of logical possibilities but the question is, how much of them is the designer capable of producing? Your assumption that the designer can produce all of them implies the implicit attribution of omnipotence to the designer.
Keith #172: After all, we know absolutely nothing about the purported designer.
Correct. We do not know if a designer has the unlimited capability of producing trillions of different orderings of life – for all we know the designer’s choice is restricted to only one option by a limited capability. We simply have no way of knowing. You just said: “we know absolutely nothing about the purported designer”, so why do you in effect assume omnipotence?
Keith #172: Lacking that knowledge, the principle of indifference applies. Every possibility should be treated as having equal probability, which is why my trillion-sided die model is totally appropriate.
First you assume an omnipotent designer, and now you want to argue that the principle of indifference applies wrt the choice of the designer … So, you are saying that we should accept the assumption that an omnipotent designer is completely indifferent about the ordering of life and that he based his decision on the role of a trillion-sided die. So we have an omnipotent designer who is completely indifferent about the ordering of life. Those are two baseless assumptions Keith! Nice job!
Keith #172: What’s amusing is that ID proponents — who are usually screaming “Don’t tell us what the Designer would or wouldn’t do!” —
We say this for a good reason: we are trying to do science here. Unlike you, we are not in the business of making unsubstantiated assumptions about the designer.
Keith #172: If you want to add assumptions to the ID hypothesis, you have to justify them. Otherwise you’re making the embarrassing Rain Fairy mistake.
"Embarrassing" is correct.Box
November 7, 2014
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Joe, given what has happened, please note that you are capable of reasonable commentary, and do not have to slip off the wagon to be effective. Please do not allow yourself to slip off the wagon again. KFkairosfocus
November 7, 2014
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KS, I notice the school yard taunt game again, and the insistence on strawman tactic caricatures of design thought in the teeth of abundant corrective to the contrary. You full well know that I have a period of extreme busyness connected to a major change locally, and that I therefore have limited time to deal with your spin tactics. But instead of respect, that is a "weakness" to be taken rhetorical advantage of. Complete with accusations and insinuations you know to be false. Also, every time you have been cogently corrected, you have ignored it, and rushed on to more talking points, as though noting is the matter with your core case. On that the biggest single sign is two years and counting on an open invitation to host right here at UD an essay that grounds the darwinist case across the tree of life, not seriously taken up. About par for the might and manipulation make 'right' 'truth' and 'knowledge' course. I have already put up a counter example at 183, which gives a real sample of the real arguments long raised by design thinkers -- in this case one willfully ignored (those who took the lead in the caricature knew what Paley actually wrote, or should have known) and strawmannised for 150 years, Paley's self replicating watch, which you -- or most likely astute onlookers should pay heed to. I will clip your latest spin on your caricature of design argument and comment on slices: >>Some more questions for the ID supporters out there: 1. Bob is walking through the desert with his friend, a geologist. They come across what appears to be a dry streambed. After some thought, Bob states that every rock, pebble, grain of sand and silt particle was deliberately placed in its exact position by a Streambed Designer.>> a --> Caricature, you substitute a strawman for the case of something very specific: FSCO/I and its inductively known cause on trillions of cases in point. >> His friend says “That’s ridiculous. This streambed has exactly the features we would expect to see if it was created by flowing water. Why invoke a Streambed Designer?”>> b --> The strawman continues, willfully dodging the issue of FSCO/I and its known source: design. Notice, there is no, utterly no response tot he challenge that there is need to actually warrant that the favoured blind watchmaker mechanisms can and do in our observation create FSCO/I. >>Who has the better theory, Bob or his friend?>> c --> Willfully distorts the design inference per aspect filter. A streambed would be understood through that process as explicable on blind chance and mechanical necessity, accepting the risk of a false negative by setting the threshold for inferring design so high that the chances of a false positive will be negligible. 500 - 1,000 bits of functionally specific complex organisation and associated information is a sufficient threshold, per the atomic resources of the solar system or the observed cosmos -- as has been explained any number of times but routinely caricatured and/or ignored. d --> By sharp contrast, the power of blind watchmaker thesis chance and necessity in Darwin's warm pond or the like to create cell based life has NEVER been empirically demonstrated, and of course the power of such forces of chance and necessity as are known to create FSCO/I has similarly never been shown. FSCO/I is of course, a key aspect of the living cell. All of this is a case of the insistent willful distortion of the design case, often in the teeth of specific correction. e --> Likewise, the power of such blind watchmaker forces to create novel body plans full of FSCO/I has never been empirically shown, just, that by a priori evolutionary materialism and/or its fellow travellers, any alternative has been locked out. Grand begging of the question. f --> Coming out the door, a strawman caricature, one laced as well with the insinuation that if you disagree with the borg, you are ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked. >> 2. Bob is invited to the scene of an investigation by a friend who is an explosive forensics expert. They observe serious damage radiating out in all directions from a central point, decreasing with distance, as if an explosion had taken place. Bob’s friend performs some tests and finds large amounts of explosive residue. Bob says, “Somebody went to a lot of trouble to make it look like there was an explosion here. They even planted explosive residue on the scene! Of course, there wasn’t really an explosion.”>> g --> Again, willfully strawmannises the design inference process. On such signs of an explosion, without FSCO/I the explanation would be the first and second defaults of the filter process: natural regularities explained on lawlike necessity and stochastic contingencies on chance. h --> Notice, the continuing underlying question-begging assumption that the target of all this, FSCO/I has been explained on blind chance and/or mechanical necessity, as well as that the origin of life and of its major body plans -- both involving FSCO/I -- have been similarly explained. >> Who has the better theory, Bob or his friend?>> i --> Strawman tactic resting on begged questions and utter want of evidence that blind watchmaker thesis forces can and do produce FSCO/I. >>3. Bob and another friend, an astronomer, observe the positions of the planets over several years. They determine that the planets are moving in ellipses, with the sun at one of the foci. Bob says, “Isn’t that amazing? The angels pushing the planets around are following exactly the paths that the planets would have followed if gravity had been acting on them!”>> j --> A strawman caricature that disrespects and denigrates the work of Newton, a design thinker and theist. Here is what Newton, discoverer of the law, had to say on worldview matters in the general scholium to Principia, the work in which he presented the laws of motion and gravitation (and BTW this is there all along in my always linked note, as a major objector at one of the penumbra of objector sites, KS has no excuse to distort Newton like this):
. . . This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being. And if the fixed stars are the centres of other like systems, these, being formed by the like wise counsel, must be all subject to the dominion of One; especially since the light of the fixed stars is of the same nature with the light of the sun, and from every system light passes into all the other systems: and lest the systems of the fixed stars should, by their gravity, fall on each other mutually, he hath placed those systems at immense distances one from another . . . . We know him only by his most wise and excellent contrivances of things, and final cause [i.e from his designs]: we admire him for his perfections; but we reverence and adore him on account of his dominion: for we adore him as his servants; and a god without dominion, providence, and final causes, is nothing else but Fate and Nature. Blind metaphysical necessity, which is certainly the same always and every where, could produce no variety of things. [i.e necessity does not produce contingency] All that diversity of natural things which we find suited to different times and places could arise from nothing but the ideas and will of a Being necessarily existing. [That is, implicitly rejects chance, Plato's third alternative and explicitly infers to the Designer of the Cosmos.] But, by way of allegory, God is said to see, to speak, to laugh, to love, to hate, to desire, to give, to receive, to rejoice, to be angry, to fight, to frame, to work, to build; for all our notions of God are taken from. the ways of mankind by a certain similitude, which, though not perfect, has some likeness, however. And thus much concerning God; to discourse of whom from the appearances of things, does certainly belong to Natural Philosophy.
k --> KS' Newton is obviously nothing like the real one. The real one, having worked out the grand system of the heavens and the earth known as the Newtonian synthesis, including showing why Kepler's laws obtained per the laws -- notice the implications of that term that still remains in our talk on science -- of Gravitation etc, leading to elliptical orbits etc, saw the whole system as the work of teh great architect of the cosmos. He then went on to look at perturbations and gave himself a headache. That is the context in which he suggested that God might occasionally stabilise the system. Later, perturbations seemed to allow a solution but in fact there are still open questions on solar system stability in the long term, compounded by the discovery of chaos as a dynamical factor. Let us not ever forget that even the three body problem has no general analytic solution. >> The astronomer gives Bob a funny look and says “Maybe gravity is working on those planets, with no angels involved at all. Doesn’t that seem more likely to you?” Who has the better theory, Bob or his friend?>> l --> Notice how the willful caricature insistently continues in the teeth of a duty of truth, accuracy and fairness to deal with the real issue not a caricature of it. >> 4. Bob is hanging out at the office of a friend who is an evolutionary biologist. The biologist shows Bob how the morphological and molecular data establish the phylogenetic tree of the 30 major taxa of life to an amazing accuracy of 38 decimal places.>> m --> KS here refuses to address the many problems with Theobald and the general evolutionary claim, assuming away the problems. Notice, how he refuses to address the fact that here is serious reason to doubt that there is in fact a branching tree structure leading to the nested hierarchy once molecular evidence speaks, and more, cf 112 and FF above. >> “There couldn’t be a better confirmation of unguided evolution,” the biologist says.>> n --> The sobering issues of the blind watchmaker thesis and its failure to ground its claimed powers from the root up are ducked and brushed aside, with utter disregard to truth. This is spin not truthfulness or responsible comment. >> “Don’t be ridiculous,” Bob replies. “All of those lifeforms were clearly designed. It’s just that the Designer chose to imitate unguided evolution,>> o --> Notice the dodge of implying that blind watchmaker thesis OOL and body plan origin level macro evo has grounded its claimed dynamics on observed evidence of being able to account for FSCO/I, which is false as just linked. So there is no designer imitation issue to be answered -- had there been, the design filter would have drawn the inference that the FSCO/I in the world of life was the product of known capacities of blind chance and mechanical necessity. >>instead of picking one of the trillions of other options available to him.”>> p --> Of course, the fact that designers routinely produce systems of entities that fit in tree patterns, perhaps with cross links and multiple inheritance via libraries of standardised parts perhaps adapted to this case etc [as the real data point to], is dodged. As for the problem that WJM highlighted, that too is ducked. Let me remind those who have not taken time to read what he said, or how I clipped and endorsed him in my own response to an earlier fallacy riddled "challenge" from KS who seems to be doing a fallacy energiser bunny game:
Ultimately, keiths asks the question of IDists (to paraphrase) – “why did the designer pick just one form of life and utilize just one lineage, when it could have utilized any number of alternate, non-nested systems?” - yet, keiths fails to ask the same question of the natural forces argument – why just one form of life, why one lineage, why one neat, nested hierarchy? Keiths attempted logical argument claims to make the same assumptions about both natural and artificial causal agencies – that natural forces and design are both capable of originating life and generating the evolutionary processes and patterns we find. However, this is obviously not the only assumption keiths makes when it comes to the “natural forces” side of the argument; he assumes that natural forces could not have generated anything other than a nested hierarchy leading back to a UCA when it comes to biological life forms. He simply asserts that this is what we should expect from natural forces and makes no case for it. If we provide the same assumptions on the ID side of the argument, then we must assume any designer could not have generated anything other than a nested hierarchy leading back to a UCA when it comes to biological life forms – which means that given the same assumptions on both sides of the ledger, keiths argument fails to produce a distinction between what we should expect to find if natural forces or if design agency generated life and evolution here on earth.
>> Who has the better theory, Bob or his friend?>> q --> the trick here is to get you to nod yes, and to mock all along based on strawman caricatures, then you will nod at the end yes without realising you have been had. >> Share your answers with us. Did your answers to the four questions differ? If so, please explain exactly why. And ponder this: If you are an ID supporter, then you are making exactly the same mistake as Bob does in the four examples above, using the same broken logic. Isn’t that a little embarrassing? It might be time to rethink your position. >> r --> The strawman having been set up and knocked over, the truth having been lost in the ill-advised laughs and ridicule, the ad hominem comes into play. s --> Now, let us understand, KS is no newbie tot he design issue. If he actually does not know what the core design argument is or how the per aspect explanatory filter work, it is not because of want of explanation or opportunity to know better, it is because of willful disregard for the truth. t --> If he DOES know but refuses to acknowledge, the case is far, far worse. u --> This is what we are dealing with too often on even the seemingly polite and plausible objectors. v --> Who will then declare to one and all that they have "won" the debate. Sad. KFkairosfocus
November 7, 2014
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keith s:
Tomorrow, I plan to post a summary of all the attempted refutations of my argument, with explanations of why they fail.
keith s plans a lie-filled, cowardly post for later today.Joe
November 7, 2014
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keith s:
My bomb has now been a topic on at least six threads at UD,...
And it has been refuted in each and every one.Joe
November 7, 2014
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keiths, 1. No IDer claims there is a streambed designer. Strike one. 2. Friend has only performed tests and made no theory. nothing to compare. Strike two. 3. No IDer claims angels push planets or atoms around. That is just your lame cartoon caricature of what you imagine IDers think. Strike three. 4. You are clever, but not that much so. Date doesn't not establish your tree. It only supports the tree structure you have designed. But it can also support other structures. Just depends on what data you decide to use. Further no IDer claims that life is designed to appear unguided. Strike four. Keiths, I would be embarrassed if I were you. But it is clear that you are impervious to embarrassment. We've got most of you covered in sand now. We'll be sure to leave you with a straw for your mouth (or nose if you prefer).Steve
November 7, 2014
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Andre, You are right. But, it's worse than that. KS et al don't really care about the loss of the case on the merits, if they can make their mud slinging and spin tactics stick. (Cf here on that subject.) For the ideologically indoctrinated, closed minded, fundamentally hostile and ruthless, a rhetorical manipulation victory gives power, and power reduces restraints on doing what one pleases regardless of consequences to others. That is, we are dealing with strains of an ideological neo-marxist, Saul Alinsky "community organiser [disorganiser]":
The first step in community organization is community disorganization. The disruption of the present organization is the first step toward community organization. Present arrangements must be disorganized if they are to be displace by new patterns.... All change means disorganization of the old and organization of the new." [Alinsky, 1970, Rules for Radicals, p.116]
. . . mind-virus that has been allowed in the doors of our civilisation and its key institutions, and thus through ruthless cynicallly nihilistic tactics to displace genuine reasoning from first principles of right reason towards truth warranted through factual adequacy, coherence and balanced explanatory power. Knowledge anchored in cogent reason has been displaced by a world of pseudo-intuitive, question-begging, evolutionary materialism driven agenda driven perceptions, hidden assumptions, controlling beliefs and resulting warped, lab coat clad ideology pretending to be Science . . . i.e. Knowledge. And if you dare to disagree, you must be ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked. Worse, if there is the "taint" of Theism around you, you are a dangerous threat to the selfish and self destructive, self-centred chaos such would substitute for mutual respect, genuine rights and moral government that constitute liberty. In short a mutual recognition of dignity rooted in Imago Dei, has been displaced by the nihilist's credo, might and manipulation make 'right.' And, 'truth.' So, to him, who wins the debate boils down to who spins it and gets his perception to stick. That's why we see accusations, smears and assertions without regard to truth, accuracy, genuine warrant, fair-mindedness, grounds. That's why there is a zero concessions to IDiots policy -- they refuse to be beholden to mere facts and logic, and their game is to domineer, accuse, twist, turnabout and project blame when corrected, insistently ignore and swarm down or drown out what hey cannot answer, bully and/or enable bullying through dirty "good" cop-bad cop games, speak and act with utter disregard to truth, dominate and rule through ruthless factional power games, not to be docile -- properly, teachable -- under the force of truth and logic and facts, much less fairness, the right and justice. Plato warned us about such 2350 years ago, and about what happens to societies that let such in the gate, in The Laws Bk X:
>>Ath. . . .[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art . . . [such that] all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only [ --> that is, evolutionary materialism is ancient and would trace all things to blind chance and mechanical necessity] . . . . [Thus, they hold] that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.- [ --> Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT.] These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might [ --> Evolutionary materialism -- having no IS that can properly ground OUGHT -- leads to the promotion of amorality on which the only basis for "OUGHT" is seen to be might (and manipulation = might in "spin")], and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [ --> Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles influenced by that amorality], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is,to live in real dominion over others [ --> such amoral factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless abuse], and not in legal subjection to them. >>
What they refuse to accept is that Alcibiades came to a very sticky end, and that the Athenians in the end would rather lose a decisive battle through making mistakes than trust his insights. What we face is a reformation challenge. And, we have to recognise what we are up against, including in halls of influence and power all across our civilisation. Where, one of the strongest weapons that such evil doers have is our propensity to postpone taking strong action in defense of the imperfect but workable and reformable in teh face of the utterly destructive but manipulative and often persuasive. If you doubt me just ask the over 100 million ghosts of victims of the Communist and Fascist kissing-cousin totalitarianisms of the past 100 years. Here is Martin Niemoller's warning -- after spending years in a concentration camp:
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Trade Unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
The lessons of history were paid for in blood and tears, but sadly, we too often refuse to study and take them to heart. Only, predictably, to have to pay the same price over and over and over again. KFkairosfocus
November 7, 2014
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The chemicals in Keith's brain has convinced him that he's right even though he admitted that you can never be 100% certain..... The irony!Andre
November 7, 2014
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O Brohter, the black knight truly lives....Andre
November 7, 2014
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Based on this, it looks like we can add kairosfocus to the long list of people who are afraid to answer my four simple questions and justify their answers. I'm not surprised. Anyone else brave enough? How about you, Barry? You like issuing challenges. How about responding to one?keith s
November 6, 2014
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Tomorrow, I plan to post a summary of all the attempted refutations of my argument, with explanations of why they fail. See y'all tomorrow.keith s
November 6, 2014
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Two weeks ago, Barry issued his ill-advised "bomb" challenge. Within hours, I had supplied a bomb that UDers have been desperately trying to defuse ever since. My bomb has now been a topic on at least six threads at UD, and still no one has managed to come up with a refutation. Despite the feigned insouciance of post titles referring to "damp squibs", "fizzling" bombs, and "Black Knight taunts", it's clear that my argument has hit a nerve at UD. People are spooked, and every day that goes by without a rebuttal is a further embarrassment to UD. This is remarkable. I post an argument on the premier Intelligent Design blog, showing that ID is trillions of times worse than unguided evolution at explaining the existence of the objective nested hierarchy of life. ID supporters rush to refute it. Two weeks later, no one has succeeded. That means that at this point, it is impossible to be a rational IDer. You know my argument is there; you know it hasn't been rebutted; you know that it shows that ID is inferior to unguided evolution by a factor of trillions to one. An honest IDer has only one option at this point: give up ID. You can hope, or even pray, that someone will come up with a refutation of my argument, so that you can legitimately become an IDer again. But for now, the only honest option is to accept what you have been unable to refute. Think about it, think very hard about your relationship with the truth, and think about whether you are willing, as the saying goes, "to follow the evidence where it leads" -- even if it leads to a place that is very uncomfortable, at least at first.keith s
November 6, 2014
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KS, kindly drop the strawmen. And, the demand to provide a universal decoder algorithm which is a selectively hyperskeptical demand of and alien imposition on design theory. Start with FSCO/I recognised and in hand then provide an empirically grounded inductive explanation. Blind watchmaker -- FAIL. Design -- routinely, reliably done. FSCO/I is an inductively reliable sign of design. learn to live with it. If you want a stumble across in the field story to take on why not start 200 years ago. First Paley stumbling across a rock in a field then a watch, then from Ch II discovering that the watch has both a time keeping and a self replicating function. He infers that you cannot say much about the rock, but can recognise contrivance in the watch. He then anticipated -- but it seems was ignored -- the claim that reproduction makes a difference. Let me clip his normally overlooked thought exercise in Ch II in his Nat Theol, where he makes a very interesting inductive argument:
Suppose, in the next place, that the person who found the watch [in a field, cf the well known argument in Ch I] should after some time discover that, in addition to [--> a key point] all the properties which he had hitherto observed in it, it possessed the unexpected property of producing in the course of its movement another watch like itself -- the thing is conceivable; that it contained within it a mechanism, a system of parts -- a mold, for instance, or a complex adjustment of lathes, baffles, and other tools -- evidently and separately calculated for this purpose . . . . The first effect would be to increase his admiration of the contrivance [first excited by observing a complex, functionally specific, time keeping mechanism based on correct interaction of correctly formed and arranged parts], and his conviction of the consummate skill of the contriver. Whether he regarded the object of the contrivance, the distinct apparatus, the intricate, yet in many parts intelligible mechanism by which it was carried on, he would perceive in this new observation nothing but an additional reason for doing what he had already done -- for referring the construction of the watch to design and to supreme art . . . . He would reflect, that though the watch before him were, in some sense, the maker of the watch, which, was fabricated in the course of its movements, yet it was in a very different sense from that in which a carpenter, for instance, is the maker of a chair -- the author of its contrivance, the cause of the relation of its parts to their use.
I'd say, worlds different from convenient strawman caricatures. Back to sleep, later. KFkairosfocus
November 6, 2014
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KS, still not seeing that Theobald et al are falling into a grand, question-begging circle on the Tree of Life? BTW, that both involves that the single root node branching tree architecture is dubious -- undermining the nested hierarchy claim starting with molecular evidence, and the problem of the root and branches on blind watchmaker thesis proposed mechanisms. Kindly cf 112 ff above and many things onwards. KFkairosfocus
November 6, 2014
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Mapou:
I don’t think an “oops” moment does it justice. When the fit hit the shan, there will be a mountain of crow for the Darwinists and materialists to consume. It will be fun to watch. The paradigm shift will be much more radical and it will happen much sooner than most people suspect. It’s kinda like some karmic law in action. There is no escaping it.
I agree. The "oops" moment is only what happens in the very first second after another emperor realizes that their tailor left them parading butt-naked through their kingdom...Gary S. Gaulin
November 6, 2014
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Box Necrosis, Apoptosis and autophagy all work together to maintain the stability of cells.......
There are some settings where autophagy and apoptosis seem to be interconnected and the idea of “molecular switches” between the two processes has been introduced (Piacentini et al., 2003). This is similar to the concept of the necrosis-apoptosis “continuum” or “paradox” which suggests that both apoptosis and necrosis represent morphologic expressions of a shared biochemical network in which the route of cell death depends on a variety of factors such as the physiologic milieu, developmental stage, tissue type, and the nature of the cell death signal (Hirsch et al., 1997; Zeiss, 2003). However, the core apoptotic pathway can be diverted to induce a necrotic phenotype by alteration of the availability of intracellular ATP and the availability of caspases. A similar relationship may occur between apoptosis and autophagy. It has been suggested that mitochondria may be central organelles that integrate both apoptosis and autophagy (Elmore et al., 2001). Moreover, some of the same signals that are involved in apoptosis may also be involved in autophagy. For example, in both apoptosis and autophagy, there is the coordinated regulation of Akt (protein kinase B) and p70S6 kinase.
So what we have here is a verification of engineering principles that apply to cells...... Stability control and redundancy built into the system....... Chance did this? No Chance!Andre
November 6, 2014
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Box @124 Hi Box that is correct...... Here is a comprehensive review of PCD Some snippets!
Apoptosis is considered a vital component of various processes including normal cell turnover, proper development and functioning of the immune system, hormone-dependent atrophy, embryonic development and chemical-induced cell death.
The mechanisms of apoptosis are highly complex and sophisticated, involving an energy-dependent cascade of molecular events
The role of apoptosis in normal physiology is as significant as that of its counterpart, mitosis. It demonstrates a complementary but opposite role to mitosis and cell proliferation in the regulation of various cell populations. It is estimated that to maintain homeostasis in the adult human body, around 10 billion cells are made each day just to balance those dying by apoptosis
Alterations of various cell signaling pathways can result in dysregulation of apoptosis and lead to cancer.
Apoptosis is regarded as a carefully regulated energy-dependent process, characterized by specific morphological and biochemical features in which caspase activation plays a central role. Although many of the key apoptotic proteins that are activated or inactivated in the apoptotic pathways have been identified, the molecular mechanisms of action or activation of these proteins are not fully understood and are the focus of continued research. The importance of understanding the mechanistic machinery of apoptosis is vital because programmed cell death is a component of both health and disease, being initiated by various physiologic and pathologic stimuli. Moreover, the widespread involvement of apoptosis in the pathophysiology of disease lends itself to therapeutic intervention at many different checkpoints. Understanding the mechanisms of apoptosis, and other variants of programmed cell death, at the molecular level provides deeper insight into various disease processes and may thus influence therapeutic strategy.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2117903/ Keith S is most welcome to make his argument about unguided evolution but here is the take home, PCD is an unguided evolution killer, it prevents unguided processes from happening and once PCD and the other mechanisms become deregulated, the organism dies. PCD is not something that could or have evolved, any alteration to it and the organism dies.Andre
November 6, 2014
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Gaulin:
I honestly sense that all in the Darwinian camp are heading towards the most epic “oops” moment there ever was, in all of science history.
I don't think an "oops" moment does it justice. When the fit hit the shan, there will be a mountain of crow for the Darwinists and materialists to consume. It will be fun to watch. The paradigm shift will be much more radical and it will happen much sooner than most people suspect. It's kinda like some karmic law in action. There is no escaping it.Mapou
November 6, 2014
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I honestly sense that all in the Darwinian camp are heading towards the most epic "oops" moment there ever was, in all of science history.Gary S. Gaulin
November 6, 2014
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keiths claimed that intelligent design is incompatible with the evidence for common descent. So much for integrity. Who cares who has the better theory for a claim that is demonstrably false.Mung
November 6, 2014
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poor keiths is deluded. Who has the better theory?Mung
November 6, 2014
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I posed a challenge in the other thread that only William was brave enough to address. Here is his attempt, and here is my rebuttal. All of the other commenters, including nullasalus, were afraid to try -- and for good reason. Read the challenge and you'll see what's got them spooked. Here is the challenge:
Just to hammer my point home, here is a comment of mine from TSZ:
Some more questions for the ID supporters out there: 1. Bob is walking through the desert with his friend, a geologist. They come across what appears to be a dry streambed. After some thought, Bob states that every rock, pebble, grain of sand and silt particle was deliberately placed in its exact position by a Streambed Designer. His friend says “That’s ridiculous. This streambed has exactly the features we would expect to see if it was created by flowing water. Why invoke a Streambed Designer?” Who has the better theory, Bob or his friend? 2. Bob is invited to the scene of an investigation by a friend who is an explosive forensics expert. They observe serious damage radiating out in all directions from a central point, decreasing with distance, as if an explosion had taken place. Bob’s friend performs some tests and finds large amounts of explosive residue. Bob says, “Somebody went to a lot of trouble to make it look like there was an explosion here. They even planted explosive residue on the scene! Of course, there wasn’t really an explosion.” Who has the better theory, Bob or his friend? 3. Bob and another friend, an astronomer, observe the positions of the planets over several years. They determine that the planets are moving in ellipses, with the sun at one of the foci. Bob says, “Isn’t that amazing? The angels pushing the planets around are following exactly the paths that the planets would have followed if gravity had been acting on them!” The astronomer gives Bob a funny look and says “Maybe gravity is working on those planets, with no angels involved at all. Doesn’t that seem more likely to you?” Who has the better theory, Bob or his friend? 4. Bob is hanging out at the office of a friend who is an evolutionary biologist. The biologist shows Bob how the morphological and molecular data establish the phylogenetic tree of the 30 major taxa of life to an amazing accuracy of 38 decimal places. “There couldn’t be a better confirmation of unguided evolution,” the biologist says. “Don’t be ridiculous,” Bob replies. “All of those lifeforms were clearly designed. It’s just that the Designer chose to imitate unguided evolution, instead of picking one of the trillions of other options available to him.” Who has the better theory, Bob or his friend? Share your answers with us. Did your answers to the four questions differ? If so, please explain exactly why. And ponder this: If you are an ID supporter, then you are making exactly the same mistake as Bob does in the four examples above, using the same broken logic. Isn’t that a little embarrassing? It might be time to rethink your position.
And don’t forget the Rain Fairy.
I repeat: Share your answers with us. Did your answers to the four questions differ? If so, please explain exactly why. And ponder this: If you are an ID supporter, then you are making exactly the same mistake as Bob does in the four examples above, using the same broken logic. Isn’t that a little embarrassing? It might be time to rethink your position.keith s
November 6, 2014
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keiths:
In reality, mutation rates are low enough and vertical inheritance predominates enough that we can treat unguided evolution as a Markov process.
What I want to know is how did proponents of "unguided evolution" rule out the possibility that they are attempting to explain how a genetic cognitive system works, using an antique theory that can only lead to false conclusions in regards to what is or is not "intelligent"?Gary S. Gaulin
November 6, 2014
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Box and lifepsy, Don't kid yourselves. Your objections don't hold water. Box:
Keith, What it boils down to is this: you state that there are trillions of options available for a designer and that he/she/it could have chosen either one, but we simply have no way of knowing. There is no grounding for your claim.
Sure there is. There are trillions of logical possibilities, and we have no reason to rule any of them out. After all, we know absolutely nothing about the purported designer. Lacking that knowledge, the principle of indifference applies. Every possibility should be treated as having equal probability, which is why my trillion-sided die model is totally appropriate. What's amusing is that ID proponents -- who are usually screaming "Don't tell us what the Designer would or wouldn't do!" -- are suddenly eager to do exactly that when their "theory" is threatened. If you want to add assumptions to the ID hypothesis, you have to justify them. Otherwise you're making the embarrassing Rain Fairy mistake. lifepsy:
How is unguided evolution trillions of times better at explaining the evidence if it can also explain trillions of other opposing outcomes? (the very criticism you launch at the design inference!) A straight answer, please.
The fact that we're talking about a purely hypothetical designer doesn't mean that we are talking about some hypothetical form of evolution. Evolution -- actual, observed evolution -- proceeds gradually and with primarily vertical inheritance, and produces inferable objective nested hierarchies. It's a fact. Deal with it. Here's Theobald as a reminder:
Does Phylogenetic Inference Find Correct Trees? In order to establish their validity in reliably determining phylogenies, phylogenetic methods have been empirically tested in cases where the true phylogeny is known with certainty, since the true phylogeny was directly observed. Bacteriophage T7 was propagated and split sequentially in the presence of a mutagen, where each lineage was tracked. Out of 135,135 possible phylogenetic trees, the true tree was correctly determined by phylogenetic methods in a blind analysis. Five different phylogenetic methods were used independently, and each one chose the correct tree (Hillis et al.1992 ). In another study, 24 strains of mice were used in which the genealogical relationships were known. Cladistic analysis reproduced almost perfectly the known phylogeny of the 24 strains (Atchely and Fitch 1991). Bush et al. used phylogenetic analysis to retrospectively predict the correct evolutionary tree of human Influenza A virus 83% of the time for the flu seasons spanning 1983 to 1994. In 1998, researchers used 111 modern HIV-1 (AIDS virus) sequences in a phylogenetic analysis to predict the nucleotide sequence of the viral ancestor of which they were all descendants. The predicted ancestor sequence closely matched, with high statistical probability, an actual ancestral HIV sequence found in an HIV-1 seropositive African plasma sample collected and archived in the Belgian Congo in 1959 (Zhu et al.1998 ). In the past decade, phylogenetic analyses have played a significant role in successful convictions in several criminal court cases (Albert et al. 1994; Arnold et al. 1995; Birch et al. 2000; Blanchard et al. 1998; Goujon et al. 2000; Holmes et al. 1993; Machuca et al. 2001; Ou et al. 1992; Veenstra et al. 1995; Vogel 1997; Yirrell et al. 1997), and phylogenetic reconstructions have now been admitted as expert legal testimony in the United States (97-KK- 2220 State of Louisiana v. Richard J. Schmidt [PDF]). The legal test in the U. S. for admissibility of expert testimony is the Daubert guidelines (U. S. Supreme Court Case Daubert v. Merrell Dow Pharmaceuticals, Inc., 509 U.S. 579, 587-89, 113 S. Ct. 2786, 2794, 125 L. Ed. 2d 469, 1993). The Daubert guidelines state that a trial court should consider five factors in determining “whether the testimony’s underlying reasoning or methodology is scientifically valid”: (1) whether the theory or technique in question can be and has been tested; (2) whether it has been subjected to peer review and publication; (3) its known or potential error rate; (4) the existence and maintenance of standards controlling its operation; and (5) whether it has attracted widespread acceptance within the relevant scientific community (quoted nearly verbatim). Phylogenetic analysis has officially met these legal requirements.
None of what Theobald describes in that quote would be possible if evolution weren't gradual with predominantly vertical inheritance.keith s
November 6, 2014
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Zachriel @ 17:
Douglas Theobald: ... gradual Divine direction of evolution is indeed consistent and compatible with common descent.
keiths: Things That IDers Don’t Understand, Part 1 — Intelligent Design is not compatible with the evidence for common descent whateverMung
November 6, 2014
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keiths:
In reality, mutation rates are low enough and vertical inheritance predominates enough that we can treat unguided evolution as a Markov process.
If we assume what we want to prove, we can prove what we want to assume! As if that was ever in doubt.Mung
November 6, 2014
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keiths and his swiss cheese bomb. It's yummy, but full of holes.Mung
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