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Why people laugh at Creationists but have a harder time refuting ID-ists

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ID proponents have a hard enough time getting their message across without the “help” of creationists like Kent Hovind and Venom Fang X. Not only have Darwinists impeded the advance of ID, but so also have some creationists.

For example the creationist Venom Fang X has harmed the ID movement by his less-than-scholarly videos. RationalWiki says of Venom Fang X:

VenomFangX (often shortened to VFX or Venom) is a creationist Internet vlogger who makes YouTube videos mostly about religion, God, Christianity and creationism, particularly young earth creationism. To this date, he holds the highest subscribers amongst Christian channels (even more than the Vatican YouTube channel),

With some qualification, I will let the atheist Thunderf00t speak for me regarding Venom Fang X and Kent Hovind:

and

and

and

And those were but 4 of maybe 35 such videos by Thunderf00t. Thuderf00t has a gift for understatement doesn’t he?

Clearly the Darwinists won their exchanges with Venom Fang X and Kent Hovind. But their spectacular victories were matched by the spectacular defeats in other exchanges. For example see: Arthur Hunt and Steve Matheson vs. the UD Community. Matheson came away from all this looking like the Venom Fang X of Darwinism. The normally verbose Matheson has been strangely silent in the wake of his defeat in public debate. I wonder why? After all this was the same guy who said: The Discovery Institute Needs to be Destroyed.

And then we have: Ken “we suck” Miller wrong again — peer reviewed article obliterates Miller’s claims. I would never put Miller down in the class of Kent Hovind, but nevertheless Miller was spectacularly wrong whereas ID proponents have been proven right. See: Nature “writes back” to Behe Eight Years Later and Zuck is out of luck — Marsupial Findings Vindicate Behe, Denton, Hoyle.

And that is why people laugh at creationists but have a harder time refuting ID-ists.

HT: Thunderf00t

Comments
scordova: Yes, some creationists say some pretty stupid things, and when they do, they damage the credibility of ID because the public has been taught (wrongly) to associate ID with creationism. So I'm all for dumping on Kent Hovind (and people whose scientific education is at a level similar to his, and like him do not have the good sense to keep their mouths shut on scientific topics). On the other hand, I wish that Thunderf00t would learn the proper pronunciation of the word "nuclear."Timaeus
August 19, 2012
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I would like to put a different perspective on this, I use to be a materialist and a few years back while on holiday a friend of mine who was a creationist convinced me to watch some Hovind videos. I initially did it for laughs because you know how crazy these creationist cooks can be right? I think it was after the third or fourth video that a light went one and some of the stuff said really got me thinking and questioning that which I have believed or assumed for so long. Back from holiday the first thing I did was gather all the information on what I knew or thought I knew and compared it with what was out there as opposing theories (ID and creationism). Of course once you do this and actually look at the evidence, many of you know like I do today that it becomes a no contest and Darwinism and its illogical assumptions get thrown into the toilet where it belongs. Don't underestimate the importance of what some of those crackpots have to say, it might be 90% junk but there are truth bits that really gets the grey matter going into critical thinking mode and that is exactly what people need. Am I a Hovind supporter? Absolutely not! Did his crackpot theories instigate me to research things and find the truth? The answer is yes!Andre
August 19, 2012
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Sal, you really think creationists are just dumb? Please, of course many are brilliant and most are just as smart as anyone else. Your view is an uniformed caricature. Want Drivel?? Cosmology is a ridiculous joke, maybe surpassing evolution. You are unable to grasp the deep implications of the reality that our construct of thermo is pointing to, Sewell is dead on. Long ages are a religious canon which is now continually at odds with observation. Religious adherence to long ages is MORE 'fundamentalist' than that of YEC'ers. "why people laugh at ________" Is just snarky and snotty.butifnot
August 19, 2012
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I once had my college physical chemistry prof laugh at George W. Bush's plan to develop fuel cells for cars instead of using oil. He said it was stupid because hydrogen explodes, like the Hindenburg. The same man spent several minutes of class time explaining to us how all organic chemists descend from two European families. We all have our examples of dumb things people believe. I don't appreciate it when creationists are wrong either. I don't tolerate stupidity from anyone. But I know who God prefers. He sees faith or lack of it, and everything else is nothing. The cause of Christ doesn't require anything but what God has already done and what he's going to do. So I think it would behoove you Sal, to calm down a bit. "There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal. Nations, cultures, arts, civilizations - these are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat. But it is immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry, snub and exploit - immortal horrors or everlasting splendors. This does not mean that we are to be perpetually solemn. We must play. But our merriment must be of that kind (and it is, in fact, the merriest kind) which exists between people who have, from the outset, taken each other seriously - no flippancy, no superiority, no presumption." C.S. Lewistragic mishap
August 19, 2012
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ba77: "That is why I, personally, object to what I see as a low road departure for him, especially when addressing people not directly opposed to him. " The enemy of my enemy is my friend. It's a valid concept in warfare or anything in social nuances that resembles warfare. And I have no objection to your perspective on that as such. But there's another common aphorism: Separate the wheat from the chaff. Of course, that's quite like warfare itself as you can't even get started until you beat everything gratuitously with agricultural nunchuks.Maus
August 19, 2012
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forgot to say this too. You should remember that not all creationists are like these 2. This article is too much like a Darwinist/atheist way of thinking. Maybe I am less sensitive to this stuff since I see some beliefs about evolution just as drivel...ous as u might see Hovind's and other's statements.tembew
August 19, 2012
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@scordova : "Please watch the video, and tell me if think it is OK to teach kids violations of thermodynamics that are basic to every day life." it would be a good way to teach them the principles of thermodynamics that are basic to everyday life... I'm with bornagain77 on that last post. It's like picking a fight with everyone in a bar because one person wanted to fight you. Should remember too that, as far as they are concerned, you are a creationist. I'd like to see Hovind's response to these corrections.tembew
August 19, 2012
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Huh?Joe
August 19, 2012
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And with people like that either treat them as entertainment or ignore them.
Well, you should have no problem with criticizing pseudoscience, especially since some of the individuals here actually give some credence to it.Genomicus
August 19, 2012
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Sal- they are just people. And with people like that either treat them as entertainment or ignore them. They ain't on anybody's side but their own. They speak for themselves.Joe
August 19, 2012
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Ba77, With "friends" like Hovind and VenomFang X, who needs enemies? I don't want these guys on my team. I will call out Christian Darwinists on their drivel, I'll also call out Christian Creationists on their drivel. What Hovind said are no minor errors. Evolutionary theory ranks better than what Hovind claimed about Noah's flood being caused by an ice comet. It's ok to make mistakes, but getting up on stage like Hovind and VenomFangX without some rudimentary study? Bad.... Salscordova
August 19, 2012
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tembew:
it actually might. I don’t know what your problem with hovind is tho.
You don't want to teach your kids the stuff Kent Hovind preaches, do you? Every argument he brings to the table can easily be shown to be wrong and he messes up in basic biology. I find it quite refreshing that ID proponents (e.g., scordova) are starting to take YE creationists to task for their erroneous arguments. This is a second post by scordova for which I salute him (the other one being his critique of Sewell's arguments). A nice quote from scordova:
That’s exactly the attitude I find distressing in some creationists. I’m now even more glad to have posted what I did because it confirms the willingness to side with Creationists merely because they are creationists rather than side with the truth. Don’t you see, such attitudes do not help advance the truth?
Remember, what we're interested here is in the advancement of human knowledge. We're not interested - or we shouldn't be - in advancing our own agendas. Don't side with creationists just because they're creationists. Don't side with ID proponents just because they're ID proponents. Don't side with the Darwinian side just because they're the scientific community. Don't conform to any orthodoxy just because it is the orthodoxy, be it creationist or ID or Darwinian. Ya see, some people are actually interested only in furthering progress in science. And to that end, critiquing flawed arguments - wherever it comes from - is very needed.Genomicus
August 19, 2012
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Well maus, I've learned, the hard way, to let the brute facts do my hard lifting, and 'insulting', of neo-Darwinists for me. And have seen Sal use much the same tactic for most of the time he has posted on UD, sometimes with deep insights. That is why I, personally, object to what I see as a low road departure for him, especially when addressing people not directly opposed to him. Granted it is not really much of a departure into rudeness as compared to say what Myers' or Moran's blog would probably have, but none-the-less, when picking bones with friends I should expect the respect, as well as level of scholarship, from Sal to be his best. That is why I voiced my disappointment with this post (as well as with Sal's post against Dr. Sewell)bornagain77
August 19, 2012
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I am only familiar with his evolution talks.
Did you watch the short video on Hovind's ice-comet theory of Noah's flood? I provided a link above. It is a short video. Hovind invoked ideas that are contrary to what engineers and physicists use to make refrigerators heaters or other means of converting mechanical energy into heat. That bothers me a lot. It's drivel. So what if Hovind is anti-evolution, it doesn't let him off the hook. If he is so careless with ideas that could be controverted by a 2nd year physics or engineering student....maybe even a high school student, it doesn't lend much credibility to his criticisms of evolution. Please watch the video, and tell me if think it is OK to teach kids violations of thermodynamics that are basic to every day life. Any way, thank you for responding. It reinforces the reason I just don't like mingling in creationist circles. The willingness of some creationists to defend creationist ignorance and errors is revolting. Just because someone is fighting the errors of Darwin doesn't give them license to desecrate basic understanding of engineering physics. Don't you see. The willingness to let drivel like this get a pass actually hurts the integrity of creationism and by way of extension those in ID (who aren't even creationists).scordova
August 19, 2012
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tembew, right on.Chance Ratcliff
August 19, 2012
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I'm not siding with hovind. I am only familiar with his evolution talks. You apparently think Kids being exposed to "Dr Dino" means you must teach them he is right about everything. It simply is a means to teach thinking skills. Some of what he says about evolution has value and some of his personal theories can be critically assessed to show how they are wrong. The same way I think students should be taught how to think with evolution (so they can understand where scientists who accept it have gone wrong and improve on that). Is teaching students just about feeding them whatever you believe, as fact? Seems that is what you think it is. one thing i do not like about those videos is the generalization. Those seem like Hovind's own ideas, yet they are presented to damn all creationists. I am sure there are a lot of theories floating around out there.tembew
August 19, 2012
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ba77: "You rather, IMO, ungraciously, like a bull in a china shop, did just the same thing not too long ago with Dr. Sewell on thermodynamics,," And Evolution got its teeth in by such Bulls as Huxley. Thereafter making repeated pleas that profound flights of fancy and fallacy should be treated with kid gloves rather than called out directly and unequivocally as vapid nonsense. It's worth noting that Engineers 'get things done' rather than pick polite navel-fuzz over tea in the parlor. And they regularly try to murder each other over a difference of 2 threads per inch before going out to the bar after work as friends. The significant difference? Engineering is pure empiricism and allows no room for excuses about models and metaphysical nonsense that is epistemically opaque without access to time machines. chris haynes: "So let’s use honest language. We’re Creationists. And we’re wining." What's this 'we' nonsense? I neither Believe ID nor Believe Evolution. But I support the place of both as valid research programs worthy of consideration in the general sense. Does that make me an Theistic Atheist or an Atheistic Theist?Maus
August 19, 2012
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I don’t know what your problem with hovind is tho.
Did you watch Thunderf00t's video on Hovind's ice ball causing Noah's flood? You think believing students of science shouldn't be enraged with Hovind's drivel offered up as representing the Christian faith? The blind acceptance of such drivel just because it is claimed to defend the name of Christ is distressing. This drivel doesn't help Christ's cause. It needs to go, and now that Hovind is in a federal penetentiary, at least he's being slowed down.
I asked: Feeding them Dr. Dino drivel won’t do this will it?
you responded
it actually might.
That's exactly the attitude I find distressing in some creationists. I'm now even more glad to have posted what I did because it confirms the willingness to side with Creationists merely because they are creationists rather than side with the truth. Don't you see, such attitudes do not help advance the truth?scordova
August 19, 2012
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it actually might. I don't know what your problem with hovind is tho.tembew
August 19, 2012
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We need to reach the children and teach them how to think
Feeding them Dr. Dino drivel won't do this will it?scordova
August 19, 2012
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The very term "I.D." is inaccurate, and wussie. Whatever happened, your intelligent being didnt just "design" stuff, leaving behind blueprints to gather dust. No, he did much more. He created it. So let's use honest language. We're Creationists. And we're wining. Look at naturalistic abiogenisis, the current state of evolutionary theory, the infinite multiverse. When youre on a roll, you dont pull punches.chris haynes
August 19, 2012
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Sal, I’ve noticed a tendency of yours of late to ‘step on toes’ if you see people in conflict with what the empirical evidence actually says
Well, yeah!scordova
August 19, 2012
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i used to watch hovind. Never really found a big problem with him I just upgraded, in a sense, to more scholarly opponents of evolution. I guess I realized that reason and common sense weren't going to reach the evolutionists, but now I know science won't either. Often they can't even understand the issues much less be convinced by them. Unfortunately the evolutionists avoid debates (like Dawkins) so they are pretty insulated.tembew
August 19, 2012
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I suspect atheists make up the majority of the audience for Hovind and VFX. I have never met a creationist who pays attention to either of these guys. Atheists (such as thunderfoot) spend countless hours knocking over strawmen and then crowing about their victories.bevets
August 19, 2012
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This is why people hate apples but have a harder time picking oranges. It sounds like Sal is saying that either creationists should never advance unsound arguments, or scholars should be the only ones participating in the debate.Chance Ratcliff
August 19, 2012
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This article is in terrible taste. As far as the opposition is concerned, you are a creationist. That you actually post so many of that guy's videos was surprising. An atheist posted one of his videos to me once and i was less than impressed. The reason u get laughed at (as well as creationists) is because your views are not fitting that of the materialists. They see the acceptance of anything beyond the physical as a belief in fairy-tales. There is no reason to belittle creationists in an article like this. You are being no better than the small minded atheists and evolutionists. claiming that kent hovind and that other guy lost is presumptuous. Don't think I ever saw Hovind lose when i started researching this issue. A child (not to say hovind is bad. No insults) could challenge evolution because it is literally indefensible. You have to bend around and assume rubbish just to sound even remotely plausible. Neither science nor simple reasoning can convince evolutionists. I doubt their minds will ever change. We need to reach the children and teach them how to think so that this failure of a theory can be gotten rid of.tembew
August 19, 2012
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Sal, I've noticed a tendency of yours of late to 'step on toes' if you see people in conflict with what the empirical evidence actually says (which might be one of the reasons why you were drawn to ID in the first place). You rather, IMO, ungraciously, like a bull in a china shop, did just the same thing not too long ago with Dr. Sewell on thermodynamics,,
Physicist Rob Sheldon offers some thoughts on Sal Cordova vs. Granville Sewell on 2nd Law Thermo https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/physicist-rob-sheldon-offers-some-thoughts-on-sal-cordova-vs-granville-sewell-on-2nd-law-thermo/
And now you've done it here by citing wikipedia (hardly a unbiased source, and, of all people, Thunderf00t against YEC's. Yet Thunderf00t is hardly of impeccable reputation as to his honesty of personal character in his attacks. Please note this rebuttal of his attack on Dr. William Lane Craig which backfires extremely badly for thunderfoot since his honesty itself was impeached in the backfire of his attack:
Thunderf00t vs William Lane Craig H-Index Backfires - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ysfy70Z0Wrc
Now Sal, this is not to say that I agree with the YEC cosmological position, for I certainly do not, but it seems to me you could be more charitable with your refutation of their entire position than to cite thunderfoot and the anti ID and YEC propaganda mill wikipedia.,,, Moreover to somewhat stand up for the work done by YEC's, I have to say that while I strongly disagree with their cosmology, their work in biology has been cutting edge in many instances. For primary example, YEC Dr. Sanford was a few years ahead of Dr. Behe in finding that Genetic Entropy was the overriding rule governing all biological adaptations, 2005 to 2010 respectively:
Genetic Entropy & the Mystery of the Genome - 2005 http://www.amazon.com/Genetic-Entropy-Mystery-Genome-Sanford/dp/1599190028 Evolution Vs Genetic Entropy - Andy McIntosh - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4028086
Whereas Dr. Behe, in what can be argued to be a more 'meticulous ID path', came out with this peer-reviewed paper in 2010:
“The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain - Michael Behe - December 2010 Excerpt: In its most recent issue The Quarterly Review of Biology has published a review by myself of laboratory evolution experiments of microbes going back four decades.,,, The gist of the paper is that so far the overwhelming number of adaptive (that is, helpful) mutations seen in laboratory evolution experiments are either loss or modification of function. Of course we had already known that the great majority of mutations that have a visible effect on an organism are deleterious. Now, surprisingly, it seems that even the great majority of helpful mutations degrade the genome to a greater or lesser extent.,,, I dub it “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain.(that is a net 'fitness gain' within a 'stressed' environment i.e. remove the stress from the environment and the parent strain is always more 'fit') http://behe.uncommondescent.com/2010/12/the-first-rule-of-adaptive-evolution/
Michael Behe talks about the preceding paper on this podcast:
Michael Behe: Challenging Darwin, One Peer-Reviewed Paper at a Time - December 2010 http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/player/web/2010-12-23T11_53_46-08_00
Thus Sal, although I am certainly a 'bull in a china shop' myself as to imparting the proper delicate touch of diplomacy that needs to be imparted when we strongly disagree with people, perhaps we both can try to be more gentle in these matters when it comes to disagreeing with people?!? Music: Natalie Grant - Alive (Resurrection music video) http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=KPYWPGNXbornagain77
August 19, 2012
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